Werthead Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 Laaaaaame. Penguin are unwilling to pay for Whelan, so he won't be doing the covers for Narrowdark or Navigator's Children. Ser Scot A Ellison and Derfel Cadarn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 The latest cover his November release, which I still want to try, was also uninspiring. Bad call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Patrek Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 On 12/23/2021 at 3:21 PM, Werthead said: Laaaaaame. Penguin are unwilling to pay for Whelan, so he won't be doing the covers for Narrowdark or Navigator's Children. It probably doesn't help that the latest series hasn't sold all that well. From that point of view, you can see why PRH doesn't feel like paying more for cover art is a good investment. It's too bad, for the Whelan covers gave Tad's books their signature look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 I see that Navigator's Children has now been put up on Amazon with an October release date, just a few months after book 3 ( which doesnt have a synopsis yet). Thats 2 massive books by the looks of it. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 I’m reading Brothers of the Wind. It’s quite good love seeing the Kidi’ya at a much higher stage of power and the revelations about the Tinuked’ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 20 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I’m reading Brothers of the Wind. It’s quite good love seeing the Kidi’ya at a much higher stage of power and the revelations about the Tinuked’ya. Yes, I enjoyed that as well. I'm looking forward to the longer novella about the Fall of Asu'a that's supposed to come later. Although I must say I'd really like to read another novel taking place in the even more distant past, namely the tragedy of Nenais'u and Drukhi which would have the added benefit to meet Utuk'ku's long dead husband Ekimeniso as well as a version of Utuk'ku who might not be as hopelessly mad as the Orwellian 'Mother of All' we see in the later books. I also got a very positive Túrin-like vibe from Ineluki. Finally seeing how his tragedy is unfolding is actually more interesting than I thought ... not to mention the millennia-spanning subtle evil of Utuk'ku. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Yes, I enjoyed that as well. I'm looking forward to the longer novella about the Fall of Asu'a that's supposed to come later. Although I must say I'd really like to read another novel taking place in the even more distant past, namely the tragedy of Nenais'u and Drukhi which would have the added benefit to meet Utuk'ku's long dead husband Ekimeniso as well as a version of Utuk'ku who might not be as hopelessly mad as the Orwellian 'Mother of All' we see in the later books. I also got a very positive Túrin-like vibe from Ineluki. Finally seeing how his tragedy is unfolding is actually more interesting than I thought ... not to mention the millennia-spanning subtle evil of Utuk'ku. Just finished. I can see the Turin like vibe you get and Utuk’ku as the eternal “spider queen” working to corrupt everyone around her and subvert the beloved of her enemies. I’d love a story set in the “Garden”. I’m more certain now that the “Ocean Endless and Eternal” is space. Edited January 7, 2022 by Ser Scot A Ellison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Just finished. I can see the Turin like vibe you get and Utuk’ku as the eternal “spider queen” working to corrupt everyone around her and subvert the beloved of her enemies. I kind of understand why we didn't meet her in BotW, but I still would have liked to see her. Her weirdo courtiers were still creepy as hell, though. The guy with the weird nails was another future member of the Red Hand Akehnabi mentioned in passing in TWC, and we also saw the Gardenborn philosopher Yedade who invented the box which puts the Norns in their neat little castes. His father Nerudade was the guy who invented or discovered Unbeing in the Garden. In relation to the other books I'm expecting that information to counter the evil plan will come from Norns/Sithi who once lived at Hikehikayo before it was abandoned ... because the really big thing in BotW was Utuk'ku persuading Hakatri via Ineluki do not bother looking for medicine at that place. Since it is quite clear that she couldn't care less about Hakatri's state it stands to reason that folks at Hikehikayo may have told Hakatri stuff that might enable him or his parents from figuring out what Utuk'ku wants to do. Ayaminu has already revealed that she lived in Hikehikayo before the Parting, and we can assume that Yaarike may have lived there as well ... and Tanahaya's master Himano - who was murdered by the Norns in AoG -, too. Hakatri definitely got much more interesting as a character now that we know what kind of person he was before Utuk'ku turned him, presumably, into an undead monstrosity. I wonder whether we are going to get his POV at times. It is very much implied that at least a fraction of his original personality must remain, or else the whole foreshadowing stuff with the vision at the Farewell Stone would lead nowhere. We can expect that what's left of Hakatri must make a very crucial choice for good or bad at the very end. But I'd have still preferred it if Hakatri had still been alive in that era. Having him as an antagonist who finally returned to Osten Ard after he succeeded at healing himself and subsequently being mislead or manipulated by Utuk'ku may have been a better take on him than this resurrection game which seems to have wasted a lot of time that could have been used to depict him. 7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I’d love a story set in the “Garden”. I’m still more certain now that the “Ocean Endless and Eternal” is space. At this point it has to be either space or another dimension. Because it clearly cannot be another place on the same planet. What we saw about the remnants of the ship at Mezutu'a certainly implies that ship either came down from the sky or materialized there from another dimension. I prefer the space alien version since the Gardenborn clearly are very distinctly different from the native beings of Osten Ard. A story taking place in the Garden could be interesting as well. We already get a lot of backstory on life there in EoG. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mix_masta_micah Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Honestly, I've highly enjoyed everything Tad has put out in this new trilogy. I'm curious to see how Hakatri's fever dreams factor later on down the road in the finale for LKoOA. For my money, this new series including The Heart of What Was Lost eclipses the OG series. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 (edited) On 1/8/2022 at 4:21 PM, mix_masta_micah said: Honestly, I've highly enjoyed everything Tad has put out in this new trilogy. I'm curious to see how Hakatri's fever dreams factor later on down the road in the finale for LKoOA. I expect that he is going to play a very crucial role in Utuk'ku's plan ... presumably the same role Ineluki was supposed to have played after he had successfully taken over Elias's body ... which never happened. They only had to take the weird 'rewind time' plan with Ineluki because after the Fall of Asu'a Ineluki was barred from ever returning to Asu'a. The lesser-tier Norns are still irritated that their immortal queen relied so much on a Zida'ya prince during the last war ... and Viyeki openly asks his peers at Naglimund what the hell they need the Storm King's dead brother for. In light of Utuk'ku's feelings towards her family we can expect that a member of the ruling family of the Sith has to help him with a crucial step in the plan. Else one assumes that there were literally thousands of Norn skeletons she could have put in the suit of the Navigator. BotW supports this idea in light of the fact that when Utuk'ku's cronies come to Asu'a to 'help' Hakatri, they clearly try to recruit him to Utuk'ku's side. They only turn to Ineluki when Hakatri is not responding. And at the very end it becames clear that Ommu definitely wants Ineluki to succeed Iyu'unigato as Protector ... it is possible that they thought Ineluki would be the best pawn if he was also the (future) ruler of Asu'a and not just a prince. But I think it more likely that only the Protector/Sa'onsera can do. Nobody ever sealed Asu'a against Hakatri, and it seems very obvious that the 'Witchwood Crown plan' does involve stuff hidden at Asu'a. They think the Norns might be after those witchwood seeds the Norns buried there when the castle was built, but that cannot be the actual answer (Utuk'ku doesn't really care about her people or their longevity ... and she cares is about herself and her exit). It is much more likely that a very crucial piece of magic is still there which Utuk'ku needs to enact her plan involving the Tinukeda'ya - and that seems to be a plan to bring Unbeing back, since it is very much implied now that Unbeing was actually something the Tinukeda'ya brought forth - either intentionally or unintentionally because they were forced by the Hamakha. On 1/8/2022 at 4:21 PM, mix_masta_micah said: For my money, this new series including The Heart of What Was Lost eclipses the OG series. It is more interesting than the original series ... I've really grown to like the Orwellian Norn society. While I find such a complexity strange at first I realized during my current reread that despite the fact that the Norns are almost exclusively perceived and portrayed as almost demonic villains in the original trilogy, there is a small episode in SoF where Josua's gang shortly interrogates a captured Norn in the forest. And that guy lets it slip that he has children and that his sacrifice ensures that his name will never be forgotten, making it perfectly clear that they are more than just Orcs. Ingen Jegger has a similar attitude. Edited January 9, 2022 by Lord Varys mix_masta_micah and Ser Scot A Ellison 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 On the topic of the covers, this is all very much first world's " problems" I know, if you even wanna call it that, but I took delivery of the Brothers of the Wind DAW hardcover today, was about 32 dollars converted from the EUR price I paid, which is quite a sum for a 255 page book. You'd just think that for that kind of money in this kind of genre you would get that nice Whelan cover, its a real miss that they cancelled him for the last 2 volumes. Maybe someone should do a crowdfunding for this big publisher so that they sign him anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Patrek Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 18 hours ago, Calibandar said: Maybe someone should do a crowdfunding for this big publisher so that they sign him anyway. That's actually a good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mix_masta_micah Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 19 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I expect that he is going to play a very crucial role in Utuk'ku's plan ... presumably the same role Ineluki was supposed to have played after he had successfully taken over Elias's body ... which never happened. They only had to take the weird 'rewind time' plan with Ineluki because after the Fall of Asu'a Ineluki was barred from ever returning to Asu'a. The lesser-tier Norns are still irritated that their immortal queen relied so much on a Zida'ya prince during the last war ... and Viyeki openly asks his peers at Naglimund what the hell they need the Storm King's dead brother for. In light of Utuk'ku's feelings towards her family we can expect that a member of the ruling family of the Sith has to help him with a crucial step in the plan. Else one assumes that there were literally thousands of Norn skeletons she could have put in the suit of the Navigator. BotW supports this idea in light of the fact that when Utuk'ku's cronies come to Asu'a to 'help' Hakatri, they clearly try to recruit him to Utuk'ku's side. They only turn to Ineluki when Hakatri is not responding. And at the very end it becames clear that Ommu definitely wants Ineluki to succeed Iyu'unigato as Protector ... it is possible that they thought Ineluki would be the best pawn if he was also the (future) ruler of Asu'a and not just a prince. But I think it more likely that only the Protector/Sa'onsera Nobody ever sealed Asu'a against Hakatri, and it seems very obvious that the 'Witchwood Crown plan' does involve stuff hidden at Asu'a. They think the Norns might be after those witchwood seeds the Norns buried there when the castle was built, but that cannot be the actual answer (Utuk'ku doesn't really care about her people or their longevity ... and she cares is about herself and her exit). It is much more likely that a very crucial piece of magic is still there which Utuk'ku needs to enact her plan involving the Tinukeda'ya - and that seems to be a plan to bring Unbeing back, since it is very much implied now that Unbeing was actually something the Tinukeda'ya brought forth - either intentionally or unintentionally because they were forced by the Hamakha. It is more interesting than the original series ... I've really grown to like the Orwellian Norn society. While I find such a complexity strange at first I realized during my current reread that despite the fact that the Norns are almost exclusively perceived and portrayed as almost demonic villains in the original trilogy, there is a small episode in SoF where Josua's gang shortly interrogates a captured Norn in the forest. And that guy lets it slip that he has children and that his sacrifice ensures that his name will never be forgotten, making it perfectly clear that they are more than just Orcs. Ingen Jegger has a similar attitude. 19 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I expect that he is going to play a very crucial role in Utuk'ku's plan ... presumably the same role Ineluki was supposed to have played after he had successfully taken over Elias's body ... which never happened. They only had to take the weird 'rewind time' plan with Ineluki because after the Fall of Asu'a Ineluki was barred from ever returning to Asu'a. The lesser-tier Norns are still irritated that their immortal queen relied so much on a Zida'ya prince during the last war ... and Viyeki openly asks his peers at Naglimund what the hell they need the Storm King's dead brother for. In light of Utuk'ku's feelings towards her family we can expect that a member of the ruling family of the Sith has to help him with a crucial step in the plan. Else one assumes that there were literally thousands of Norn skeletons she could have put in the suit of the Navigator. BotW supports this idea in light of the fact that when Utuk'ku's cronies come to Asu'a to 'help' Hakatri, they clearly try to recruit him to Utuk'ku's side. They only turn to Ineluki when Hakatri is not responding. And at the very end it becames clear that Ommu definitely wants Ineluki to succeed Iyu'unigato as Protector ... it is possible that they thought Ineluki would be the best pawn if he was also the (future) ruler of Asu'a and not just a prince. But I think it more likely that only the Protector/Sa'onsera Nobody ever sealed Asu'a against Hakatri, and it seems very obvious that the 'Witchwood Crown plan' does involve stuff hidden at Asu'a. They think the Norns might be after those witchwood seeds the Norns buried there when the castle was built, but that cannot be the actual answer (Utuk'ku doesn't really care about her people or their longevity ... and she cares is about herself and her exit). It is much more likely that a very crucial piece of magic is still there which Utuk'ku needs to enact her plan involving the Tinukeda'ya - and that seems to be a plan to bring Unbeing back, since it is very much implied now that Unbeing was actually something the Tinukeda'ya brought forth - either intentionally or unintentionally because they were forced by the Hamakha. It is more interesting than the original series ... I've really grown to like the Orwellian Norn society. While I find such a complexity strange at first I realized during my current reread that despite the fact that the Norns are almost exclusively perceived and portrayed as almost demonic villains in the original trilogy, there is a small episode in SoF where Josua's gang shortly interrogates a captured Norn in the forest. And that guy lets it slip that he has children and that his sacrifice ensures that his name will never be forgotten, making it perfectly clear that they are more than just Orcs. Ingen Jegger has a similar attitude. Solid theorizing! It makes me want to do a reread of the series! How do you have so much time? No reading of more recent releases/authors? Speaking of, what do you consider series that are among your favorites (obviously ASOIF and MST I'd assume). I am in complete agreement about the Norn side of things. I was worried when I'd heard that he was going to be delving into their culture prior to the release of The Heart of What Was Lost; I feel mysterious parts of entertainment are often ruined when fleshed out but this is not the case. The Norns are fascinating and bring a ton to the table in terms of stakes, lore, and characterization. In Brothers of the Wind, it's also nice to see further speculation on the Changelings in this new series much like the Norns. In particular, how the Sithi are not perfect beings...the treatment of the Changelings is alarming at times and makes me enjoy Hakatri more as a character. We also see Xaniko in the flesh, a poet mentioned and referred to in LKoOA in BotW. I would need to read the short story Burning Man again but it would be a great idea to compliment it with BoTW as Hakatri haunts Asu'A in the guise of how he is presented when burned. Going back to the theorizing about the Sithi/Norns being alien...I think they are but I think they came through an alternate dimension portal of some sort, not on a space ship from space (I could very well be wrong of course). Anyways, like I previously said, the plotting, foreshadowing, and character work are just that much better in the newest series imo....the only downfall is that one needs to read the original trilogy to understand this newest one to the fullest. The newest series wouldn't exist without the original and it's that much stronger for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 Am I correct that the Kida’ya were not native to The Garden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 33 minutes ago, mix_masta_micah said: Solid theorizing! It makes me want to do a reread of the series! How do you have so much time? No reading of more recent releases/authors? Speaking of, what do you consider series that are among your favorites (obviously ASOIF and MST I'd assume). I don't have that much time to read, actually. The reread was triggered when I read BotW when it came out, and I first reread the two new books and then was actually in the mood for the others ... which I actually never got through before during an actual read (I had to go with the audiobooks for the original trilogy). I got to Tad Williams via Otherland around 2000, and Osten Ard only started to interest when I learned about the continuation. I always liked Utuk'ku from the original series - a kind of evil Galadriel character - and it was pretty obvious from the start that a continuation of the series would have to focus on her and the Norns. Also - seeing Miri and Simon as rulers was also something I was interested in. I had my troubles with a lot of the travelogue chapters the first time around ... but in reread I realized that Morgan alone in the forest was actually material I very much enjoyed. I still find it a pity, though, that we have no Utuk'ku POV so far - nor a Norn POV who really know what's going on. I guess we will get to that before the end, but it could also have been interesting to see the naive guys - Viyeki, Nezeru to a point, to be contrasted with the POV of a person who is very much in the know about the queen's evil plans - kind of how we have Pasevalles' real persona in EoG. But then - what we can glimpse at might imply that - with the possible exception of Akhenabi, Jijibo, and Ommu - only Utuk'ku might know what she is about. In EoG we do get that Prince-Templar fellow Pratiki, who is of Utuk'ku's extended family, and even he has no clue what the Witchwood Crown plan is actually about. 33 minutes ago, mix_masta_micah said: I am in complete agreement about the Norn side of things. I was worried when I'd heard that he was going to be delving into their culture prior to the release of The Heart of What Was Lost; I feel mysterious parts of entertainment are often ruined when fleshed out but this is not the case. The Norns are fascinating and bring a ton to the table in terms of stakes, lore, and characterization. At first I was turned off by that since it seemed to establish things that were completely invisible in the earlier series ... while not *really* developing much on the characters we had from MST. I had expected that Akhenabi would feature very prominently in THoWwL, for instance. 33 minutes ago, mix_masta_micah said: In Brothers of the Wind, it's also nice to see further speculation on the Changelings in this new series much like the Norns. In particular, how the Sithi are not perfect beings...the treatment of the Changelings is alarming at times and makes me enjoy Hakatri more as a character. Oh, well, some Norns like Xaniko liked them ... Utuk'ku basically bred them all into beasts of burden. But, yes, if you kind of remove the Orwellian setting in which the Norns live and grew up in they seem to be more pragmatic and less aloof than the Sithi. Not only did they interbreed with the Tinukeda'ya but also with the mortals even before they establish their official breeding program in THoWwL. Something we have no indication the Sithi ever did. Also, something like the bond between Viyeki and Tzoja - despite everything that still sets them apart - is something you cannot really imagine between a Sitha and a human. On the reread it also seemed to me pretty likely that Ekisuno and Suno'ku - descendants of Ekimeniso who are apparently not descended from his wife Utuk'ku - might be descended from a human lover he may have had. I mean, Simon feels like Aditu's pet at times while he lived in the Sithi city, and that's a feeling you would likely not get from an 'enlightened Norn'. That said - we don't know how much the Fall of Asu'a changed the Sithi ... but if it changed them then it is very odd that there were no intermarriages and relationships between certain Nabbanai/Hernystiri and the Sithi. 33 minutes ago, mix_masta_micah said: Going back to the theorizing about the Sithi/Norns being alien...I think they are but I think they came through an alternate dimension portal of some sort, not on a space ship from space (I could very well be wrong of course). That is the other big possibility. 48 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Am I correct that the Kida’ya were not native to The Garden? We don't know, but it seems to be a possibility. I think at this point only Utuk'ku would know considering the fact that she lived long enough in the Garden that her great-granddaughter was born on the ships. Tanahaya's story - who seems to be very knowledgable with the historical Garden lore - doesn't know the origins of the Keida'ya. But since the new revelation is that the Tinukeda'ya are part of the hive-mind (or hive-sentience) of the Garden - like all the animals and plants and other beings in the Garden were - then the Sithi/Norns should also be like the Tinukeda'ya in that sense. But apparently they are not, which seems or might imply that they were originally as foreign to the Garden as they are to Osten Ard now. And that would then imply that they got to the Garden in a similar manner they got to Osten Ard much later. If any of the Gardenborn back in the Garden had some kind of secret and now lost knowledge about their ultimate origins then Utuk'ku is the only one might still remember something about that. It also seems that the exploitation approach to the Garden and 'its fruits' was the consensus approach of all the Gardenborn until Sa'onsera did her meditations, etc. A crucial issue in this context seems to be to what degree Utuk'ku's and Jijibo's narrative they forced on the weird Tinukeda'ya of Nakkiga is true. That story blames the Tinukeda'ya for Unbeing ... is that completely wrong or did Nerudade and Hamakho actually discover something the Garden/Tinukeda'ya planned to use against the Sithi/Norns and then (tried to) turn it against them? Also - and much later - why does Utuk'ku view Ruyan Vé the Navigator as 'a traitor'. He got them to Osten Ard, did he not? So what did he do later that earned him her undying wrath? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 On 1/6/2022 at 1:26 PM, Calibandar said: I see that Navigator's Children has now been put up on Amazon with an October release date, just a few months after book 3 ( which doesnt have a synopsis yet). Thats 2 massive books by the looks of it. Hmmmm and now book 4 is not on Amazon.com anymore. Its still up on Amazon UK, ISBN 0756418550 Both books are listed at around 800 pages.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calibandar said: Hmmmm and now book 4 is not on Amazon.com anymore. Its still up on Amazon UK, ISBN 0756418550 Both books are listed at around 800 pages.... What is Book 3’s title? Was Nakkiga the only Hikeda’ya city? All others appear to be Zida’ya cities. Edited January 12, 2022 by Ser Scot A Ellison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 23 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: What is Book 3’s title? Was Nakkiga the only Hikeda’ya city? All others appear to be Zida’ya cities. 'Into the Narrowdark' - no idea what that could refer to at this point. Prior to the Parting the two peoples lived together in all the cities - possibly there were even some Sithi at Nakkiga-That-Was at that time, although not that many, one imagines, just as after the Parting there remained some Norns at Asu'a as we learn in BotW. Specific cities where they are confirmed to have lived together prior to the Parting would be Tumet'ai (which was swallowed by the ice before the Parting) and Enki-e-Shayo'saye (where Drukhi and Nenais'u seem to have lived together) but that should have extended to all the cities prior to the Parting. The place where Sithi and Norns lived together very much in harmony prior to the Parting (and perhaps even some time thereafter) seems to be the city of Hikehikayo which has been mentioned repeatedly in the new books, especially as the place where Ayaminu lived before the Parting. The big question in THoWwL is who the Norn was Ayaminu knew in her youth. Chances are pretty big that it was Yaarike and he was the guy who stole the document that Morgan and Tanahaya found with her master's corpse in EoG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 I’m rereading the whole series. I’m clearly missing stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 23 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I’m rereading the whole series. I’m clearly missing stuff. I'm enjoying my reread so far. Started with THoWwL after BotW, then the two books of the new series, and then I returned to MST. Especially THoWwL is pretty well-written and actually seems to have a lot of subtlety going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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