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Tad Williams - The Witchwood Crown / Empire of Grass spoiler thread


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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A question.  After finishing BotW it occurs to me another character was doused with Dragon’s blood, Simon.  Why isn’t he in eternal anguish after being splashed with Wyrm’s blood?

Either because the effect isn't the same for humans or because Simon didn't get as high a dosis as Hakatri (or Makho in the later novels). Pamon Kes is connected to Hakatri due to his contact with the dragon's blood, but he was only touched by few drops. Of course, it also seems as if Tad is playing up the role of the blood in the later books.

Simon seems to have gotten some blood in his face and in his hair, leading to the scar and white streak of hair, but that was it. He wasn't bathed in dragon's blood like Hakatri was. But it did - or can be seen as having had some effects - since Simon is very open to the Dream Road later on, can use the Witnesses very easily, etc.

That he already had that talent earlier to a point seems to be connected to his descent from the Tinukeda'ya through Eahlstan's Niskie wife.

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8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Did I miss that from MST?  Or is that from TLKoOA?

I think there might be some talk about Eahlstan's wife in MST, but the main part is in the new books. When Miri visits Nabban an astrologer questions her about Simon's family tree.

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  • 2 months later...
 
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Mortals have come to Asu'a from the west with dire news: the dragon Hidohebhi has descended from the mountains to wreak destruction and death on innocent farmers and settlers. The immortal Sithi usually pay little heed to the doings of mortals, but, recognising that the dragon presents a threat to everyone, the fiery and proud young prince Ineluki rides out to confront the beast. His steadier, calmer brother Hakatri rides with him, but the power of the dragon is greater than they could have feared. Their quest to slay the beast takes them far across the lands of Osten Ard, and their adventure is chronicled by Pamon Kes, Hakatri's faithful servant.
 
Brothers of the Wind is a stand-alone prequel to Tad Williams' masterwork of epic fantasy, the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy, and its currently ongoing sequel quartet, The Last King of Osten Ard. Set more than a thousand years before the previous books in the series, it chronicles an important event from the backstory to those novels. It is also a short, self-contained work which can be read as a standalone.
 
Williams is best-known for his immense doorsteppers of books. Case in point, the final Last King of Osten Ard novel was recently deemed unpublishable in a single volume and has been split in two. However, Williams is also a skilled writer of shorter fiction, in which his always carefully-crafted prose and finely-honed characterisation is also given an impressive sense of pace and focus. That could be seen in The Heart of What Was Lost, his 2017 short novel released as a prequel to The Last King of Osten Ard, and can be seen even more here.
 
Brothers of the Wind can be read as a tragedy. It has two lead characters, Hakatri and Ineluki, both seen through the eyes of Hakatri's servant Pamon. We get a much clearer view of Hakatri, whilst Ineluki - destined to become the Storm King of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - is a more transient figure, flitting in and out of the story according to events and his changeable mood. Seeing mythical characters from one series, described in awe or terms of legend, as real flash-and-blood characters in another can be deflating, but the POV device Williams employs here lets us both get to know Ineluki better without damaging or reducing his mythic power.
 
The novel is divided into several parts. In the first part, the brothers seek out the great dragon to slay it, only to be comprehensively defeated. They find themselves wandering western Osten Ard in search of allies, lore or weapons that can help them in their quest. This part of the book is fascinating, as we see lands we know much better from the earlier novels in a more primitive state of existence: the people of Hernystir before the kingdom becomes known as that, and many more areas where the Sithi are still extant. Williams is a great travelogue writer and worldbuilder, and his skills here are put to good use, painting this earlier era of Osten Ard's history in as much colour and detail as his larger books.
 
In the latter part of the novel, the great dragon is once again confronted, but the consequences of that confrontation have wide-ranging affects. Those who have read the other books will get glimpses of the path that Ineluki sets out on that will lead to the events of the Storm King's War, but others will be more concerned with the relationship with Pamon and Hakatri, which takes an interesting turn. The story turns into one of a servant caring for his master and having to make hard choices on behalf of another, sometimes in ways that hurt himself.
 
The sheer size of the average Williams novel allows for a relaxed pace, sometimes too relaxed (the very first Osten Ard novel, The Dragonbone Chair, famously takes the better part of 200 pages to get moving), but Brothers of the Wind (****½) moves faster and with greater focus. It starts off as an adventure and gradually turns into a tragedy of genuine moving power, as well as foreshadowing events in the other books in the setting. The novel is available now in the UK and USA.
 
The third volume in The Last King of Osten Ard, Into the Narrowdark, is due for publication in July, and should be followed by The Navigator's Children.

 

 

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Interesting. I really disliked Brothers of the Wind. It was even more disappointing to me than The Heart of What was Lost. What I loved most about the original Osten Ard trilogy was it's depiction of believable, distinct, alien mindset and culture  (which is really rare in SF, sadly, with only a handful of examples where it comes across as more than one-sided exaggeration of human traits) and a really sympathetic main villain (one of them). Everything else was just OK. But now both of these things appear to have been demolished in the sequels. Also, social structures seem to be boring  pseudo medieval stuff  from central casting and roundly ignore the implications of extreme longevity on society. The way it is going, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sithi and Norns are modified humans from the future or something along these lines. The jury is still out on the Ocean Children, but meh.

The one intriguing piece was

 

Spoiler

the connection between witchwood and dragons and the hint that the Gardenborn somehow brought the dragons to Osten Ard.

 

The small bit that I have spoiled myself on in the new trilogy was also a let down, i.e. that:

 

Spoiler

Likemya(?) was unceremoniously bumped off at the very start.

So, I probably won't read the sequel trilogy. Be careful what you wish for, indeed.

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  • 1 month later...
5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m re-reading the first two books in TLKoOA in preparation for the third book.  Why was Pavisalles so keen to protect Morgan?

I think he elaborates on that in the second book - originally he was all about weirdo revenge (because his father and uncle died and he ended up with unloving in-laws, etc.), but then he realized that he could be a puppet ruler behind a King Morgan once he had ruined and ended the reign of Simon and Miriamele. Once Morgan is gone and kind of presumed dead, he fantasizes about becoming king himself ... but that seems to be more mad presumption than an even remotely realistic scenario.

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On 4/7/2022 at 9:37 PM, mix_masta_micah said:

I have been adoring the new Osten Ard books. Among the best current fantasy imo and superior to the already, very solid, original trilogy. 

The parts I like most involve the Norns.  Their society is so f*cked up that I can view them with a mix of sympathy and disgust.

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is it safe to assume, based upon the mural in Vicount Matreu’s home (when Jesa visits on behalf of Duchess Canthia) in part 3 of The Witchwood Crown that Nuanni the old Nabbanai God is really Ruyan Ve the Navigator of the Tinukeda’ya?

Never thought along those lines but it could make sense. We don't really know much about Ruyan Vé so far. I'm not even sure the MST implication that Vé was slain by King Elvrit when he landed in Osten Ard and had the Dvernings made Minneyar for him. We hear that Elvrit felt cheated somehow back then.

In context this doesn't seem to make any sense since Ruyan Vé is already dead in BOTW and him being buried at Naglimund means he must have died a really long time before the Nabbanai arrived there.

So the guy Elvrit slew must have been a different leader of the Dvernings, not Ruyan Vé.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Never thought along those lines but it could make sense. We don't really know much about Ruyan Vé so far. I'm not even sure the MST implication that Vé was slain by King Elvrit when he landed in Osten Ard and had the Dvernings made Minneyar for him. We hear that Elvrit felt cheated somehow back then.

In context this doesn't seem to make any sense since Ruyan Vé is already dead in BOTW and him being buried at Naglimund means he must have died a really long time before the Nabbanai arrived there.

So the guy Elvrit slew must have been a different leader of the Dvernings, not Ruyan Vé.

That mural just screamed “the Navigator” to me.  I’m looking forward to reading  The Empire of Grass again.   Another scene that jumped out at me after reading The Brothers of the Wind is the scene between the Red Hand Ommu and Viyeki is that she says virtually the same thing to Vikyeki that … someone… says to Hakatri at Sesuad’ra… that he will have to make a choice.

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57 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That mural just screamed “the Navigator” to me.  I’m looking forward to reading  The Empire of Grass again.   Another scene that jumped out at me after reading The Brothers of the Wind is the scene between the Red Hand Ommu and Viyeki is that she says virtually the same thing to Vikyeki that … someone… says to Hakatri at Sesuad’ra… that he will have to make a choice.

Yeah, the whole choice thing really seems to build up something. I expect that Ommu isn't the woman in Hakatri's vision - there I think it is more likely that this is Likimeya in her limbo between life and death.

Ommu, Utuk'ku, and Likimeya seem to be the weird female trinity that is at the heart of the Witchwood Crown plan ... and whatever that is, it is clearly a gamble on Utuk'ku's part. She might be able to get - or to unleash - what she wants or it might the end of all her plans (she might also throw away her life in any case, sacrificing if it is necessary for the plan). But it seems clear that Likimeya most definitely does not want what Utuk'ku wants, so things could also in her direction.

Ommu is used by Utuk'ku in the plan, and it seems she is fine with whatever she wants to do, but she also seems to have some agenda of her own - or at least she might be so far detached from reality and mortality these days that she only has an academic interest how things are unfolding, not particularly caring whether Utuk'ku gets what she wants or not.

Viyeki seems to be not really important himself - although he apparently does have to make a choice - but rather due to his connection to Tzoja and Nezeru who both clearly seem to be at the heart of this plan.

Utuk'ku searches for Tzoja and drags her along not for her medical knowledge, Akhenabi does not read Nezeru's mind only to allow her to continue for no reason. And I think Unver's fate is also kind of shaped by Utuk'ku, both because of the signs and portents making him seem special ... and more importantly because of the sudden death of Rudur Redbeard of poison. The guy gives no indication that he knew he was drinking poison, meaning he wouldn't have known that the wine was poisoned. Thus the chances are not that bad the shaman Volfrag, who was pouring the wine, poisoned it ... but why? He could be basically the Pasevalles or Hugh of the Grasslands - some guy who is in cahoots with the Norns for whatever reason.

But of course Hakatri is also clearly at the heart of the evil plan - and the whole choice thing for him would imply that if he makes the right choice at the right moment he might also be able to prevent a most evil outcome. One imagines that Hakatri is only going to be himself again - or feeling like himself - during the great finale, or else his resurrected self might to be willing to be an instrument of destruction in the next two books (and clearly is that if the finale of the last book is any indication).

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So, I’m early into my reread of Empire of Grass (EoG).  I just read the passage where Eolair sees Vorsheva among the Stallion Clan attendees at the Thanemoot. 

Who was in charge of the prior search for Vorsheva and the Twins?  Did it not, out of a mere sense of thoroughness, occur to them to look for the Stallion clan?  That was Vorsheva’s clan.  She had family there.  So:

1) They looked and Vorsheva was concealed from them;

2) They didn’t think to look there because Vorsheva hated Fikolmij;

3) The person/people who was/were tasked to look for Vorsheva and the Twins didn’t want to find them and lied about the thoroughness of their search.

Are there any other possibilities?  The third is the most insidious.  In any event this seems like it needs to be addressed.

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So, I’m early into my reread of Empire of Grass (EoG).  I just read the passage where Eolair sees Vorsheva among the Stallion Clan attendees at the Thanemoot. 

Who was in charge of the prior search for Vorsheva and the Twins?  Did it not, out of a mere sense of thoroughness, occur to them to look for the Stallion clan?  That was Vorsheva’s clan.  She had family there.  So:

1) They looked and Vorsheva was concealed from them;

2) They didn’t think to look there because Vorsheva hated Fikolmij;

3) The person/people who was/were tasked to look for Vorsheva and the Twins didn’t want to find them and lied about the thoroughness of their search.

Are there any other possibilities?  The third is the most insidious.  In any event this seems like it needs to be addressed.

Unless I'm misremembering, Vorzheva didn't go back there immediately to the Grasslands and only ended up with her father more or less by accident. It may even be that she wanted to cross them to get to Nabban since that's the only way overland if you don't go by ship.

That nobody of note ever bothered with checking and double-checking with Fikolmij and his clan in the subsequent years is indeed more than odd.

If it turns out that Akhenabi always kept an eye on the children then he certainly may have acted directly or indirectly to ensure they wouldn't be found. Even Pasevalles could have been involved to a point. He seems to have arrived at the Hayholt around the time Josua and eventually Vorzheva and the children disappeared.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless I'm misremembering, Vorzheva didn't go back there immediately to the Grasslands and only ended up with her father more or less by accident. It may even be that she wanted to cross them to get to Nabban since that's the only way overland if you don't go by ship.

That nobody of note ever bothered with checking and double-checking with Fikolmij and his clan in the subsequent years is indeed more than odd.

If it turns out that Akhenabi always kept an eye on the children then he certainly may have acted directly or indirectly to ensure they wouldn't be found. Even Pasevalles could have been involved to a point. He seems to have arrived at the Hayholt around the time Josua and eventually Vorzheva and the children disappeared.

Pasevalles’ occured to me.  I’m dying to know what Pasevalles found beneath the Hayholt and if he has a deal with Utuk’ku or Akhenabi.

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14 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Pasevalles’ occured to me.  I’m dying to know what Pasevalles found beneath the Hayholt and if he has a deal with Utuk’ku or Akhenabi.

Oh, then you really seem to have forgotten something crucial:

Spoiler

Pasevalles is given access to a Master Witness protected by the red thing which most likely is whatever remains of Pryrates, and he uses it to contact and talk to Akhenabi. He clearly has a deal with him, although we don't know what Akhenabi promised him in return for his services or how he can be so stupid as to believe the evil Norn would actually keep his word (vice versa, it is equally strange how Tylleth and Hugh can believe the Norns).

Utuk'ku herself was asleep for most of the time between the two book series, so whatever groundwork for the ultimate plan was done in-between (for instance, the secret military outposts Nezeru is about to discover) would have been done by Akhenabi (or other, as of yet unknown henchmen of Utuk'ku).

However, since even her own Hamakha clan princes - like Prince Templar Pratiki - seem to have no clue what the great plan is about, the people who actually know what's going on should be very small. It seems to be down to Utuk'ku herself, Jijibo, Ommu, and Akhenabi. And one can assume that Hakatri is also going to know what it is all about - or he might soon learn what he is expected to do.

There are people who speculate that Akhenabi might play a double game or intends to betray Utuk'ku somehow, but I don't see a lot of evidence for that. Rather, it seems to me, Utuk'ku's game involves her own death/sacrifice as a part of the ultimate gamble she is making, and Akhenabi is literally set up as her patsy should anything go wrong before the big finale.

If you read Viyeki's chapters you see how he and other great Norns - even somebody like Pratiki - do have doubts about what they are doing. But effectively nobody can bring themselves to doubt the Mother of All. But pretty much nobody among elite Norns - and most likely also not among the general population - do like the singers. And Akhenabi is only feared, not loved.

So if Pratiki and Viyeki or other powerful Norns were figuring out what the actual plan is - say, because Nezeru and Ayaminu or others provide them with crucial information - then Utuk'ku would likely blame Akhenabi and his creatures for all those monstrous plans, creating enough of a smokescreen to continue with her plan. Or one imagines that this is how she hopes it would go.

I also hope Tad is going to revisit the mask thing again. We do know that only the eldest Norns follow the queen's custom of wearing masks, so this has to have some meaning but nobody seems to know what it is about. It might be that those eldest Norns are in some way participating in the queen's immortality/longevity, and if this were so they would be much closer linked with her than the others.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Damn, while pre-ordering the last two volumes of 'The Last King of Osten Ard' I read the somewhat spoilery blurbs for the books:

Into the Narrowdark:

Spoiler

The High Throne of Erkynland is tottering, its royal family divided and diminished. Queen Miriamele has been caught up in a brutal rebellion in the south and thought to have died in a fiery attack. Her grandson Morgan, heir to the throne, has been captured by one of Utuk'ku's soldiers in the ruins of an abandoned city. Miriamele's husband, King Simon, is overwhelmed by grief and hopelessness, unaware that many of these terrible things have been caused by Pasevalles, a murderous traitor inside Simon's own court at the Hayholt.

Meanwhile, a deadly army of Norns led by the ageless, vengeful Queen Utuk'ku, has swept into Erkynland and thrown down the fortress of Naglimund, slaughtering the inhabitants and digging up the ancient grave of Ruyan the Navigator. Utuk'ku plans to use the Navigator's fabled armor to call up the spirit of Hakatri, the evil Storm King's brother.

Even the Sithi, fairy-kin to the Norns, are helpless to stop Utuk'ku's triumph as her armies simultaneously march on the Hayholt and force their way into the forbidden, ogre-guarded valley of Tanakirú - the Narrowdark - where a secret waits that might bring Simon's people and their Sithi allies salvation - or doom.

That one isn't that spoilery. It is quite interesting to learn that

Spoiler

the weirdo ogre valley wasn't a Bombadil-like diversion but is actually a quite important piece in the larger puzzle. One imagines that Utuk'ku's interest in that place explains both the earlier secret war between Sithi and Norns we first learned about in TWC as well as the presence of the hidden Norn military outposts in the region Nezeru stumbles upon late in EoG.

I expect we are going to see Utuk'ku's army at Naglimund press on to the Hayholt while the other one further up north are going to ensure that the Sithi cannot mess with the plan for the secret valley.

I must say I've no clue what is so important about this place ... and that's pretty good, since I don't want to figure out the grand plan too early.

Spoiler

It still stands to reason that it is connected with Unbeing and stuff, but I think we are still in for a surprise about the root of the conflict between the Gardenborn as well as Utuk'ku's very specific issues with the Zida'ya and Tinukeda'ya.

On to the blurb for 'The Navigator's Children':

Spoiler
The latest saga in the New York Times bestselling world of Osten Ard concludes in the fourth and final Last King of Osten Ard novel.
The Hayholt is in flames. Once the home of the immortal Sithi, now capital of the kingdom of men, the fabled castle has been set ablaze by vengeful Norns. And as the world is distracted by this devastating attack against humankind, the Norns' deathless witch-queen Utuk'ku reaches out to seize the fateful, ogre-haunted valley called Tanakirú--the Vale of Mists. Fooled by the Norn Queen’s trickery, Simon and the Sitha Jiriki must now leave the burning castle behind to race to the forbidden valley.  But the undead spirit known as Ommu the Whisperer travels with them, hiding in the body of Simon's granddaughter Lillia. Meanwhile, Queen Miriamele hurries to save the Hayholt and capture the treacherous noble Pasevalles, but arrives to discover the castle is on fire and the traitor has escaped. And in Tanakirú, the bond between Prince Morgan and Nezeru, a renegade Norn, has become something deeper and stranger than either of them could have anticipated.  Accompanied by Morgan's troll friends Qina and Little Snenneq, they journey ever deeper into heart of the valley’s mystery, encountering wonders and horrors, only to come face to face at last with the ancient secret that has kindled the Norn Queen's war--a secret that threatens to destroy immortals and humans alike.

Now, I think this helps us understand the title of the series.

Spoiler

The titular Last King of Osten Ard is Simon - in the sense that the Hayholt/Asu'a will be destroyed and may take the High Ward/High Throne with it, fracturing the lands of Osten Ard for good.

I imagine that like with the blurb for the third book we get a summary of key events in the last book,

Spoiler

meaning that Miri is not going to arrive at the burning Hayholt in book 4 but rather her finding the castle ablaze and Pasevalles gone will be the climax of her story in book 3. Hopefully we'll see her returning to Nabban in ItN to deal with the traitors there, before returning to Erkynland (there is potential there for her finding loyal folks among the people and the Niskies, etc.).

I think we can expect that Utuk'ku's attack on the Hayholt won't just be a distraction - but that she needs something from there, possibly that 'witchwood crown' stuff that was buried there with in the foundation of the castle. She would have likely not bothered with old Asu'a if all she needed was to be found in that valley in the forest.

One imagines that Unver and company are mainly going to be a distraction, ensuring that Simon and his buddies cannot properly defend the castle. Pasevalles can be as evil as he wants - but one traitor alone could not possibly ensure the Norns can burn down the castle (although he may play a crucial role in helping them to get inside).

There is a lot of interesting to story potential there - I imagine that the Pryrates thing is going to bite the dust in whatever confrontation we will see in the Hayholt. Apparently Jiriki is going to reach Simon before everything goes to hell since they leave the place together. Very intrigued by Ommu ending up in Lillia's body. I guess this could be the result of Ommu's apparent death in the Hayholt, possibly after a confrontation with one of the more powerful good guys. She could also be a wild card in that form.

Morgan and Nezeru apparently becoming lovers doesn't come as a big surprise in light of the end of book 2. It seems to be the way how Norns and humans can finally make peace once Utuk'ku is gone for good. And one assumes that both Viyeki and Tzoja will also play positive roles in that department.

I expect the final thing the gang is going to face in the valley will have something to do with Unbeing ... but who knows?

But it is effectively confirmed that Utuk'ku's grand plan is apparently even more of a gamble than Ineluki's plan. Things could go her way - which likely means that everything will go to hell - or things might somehow go well for the good guys.

As for the speculations about

Spoiler

Akhenabi betraying his queen - I don't see any indication for this in those two blurbs. If he was a big player in his own right the blurb for the final book should have at least mentioned him. It strikes me as very likely that Utuk'ku's most evil plan goes back to something that took place in the Garden - meaning that, at this point, only she can have all the crucial knowledge. She is the only one left who remembers both the Garden and the origins of Unbeing.

 

Edited by Lord Varys
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