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Tad Williams - The Witchwood Crown / Empire of Grass spoiler thread


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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Damn, while pre-ordering the last two volumes of 'The Last King of Osten Ard' I read the somewhat spoilery blurbs for the books:

Into the Narrowdark:

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The High Throne of Erkynland is tottering, its royal family divided and diminished. Queen Miriamele has been caught up in a brutal rebellion in the south and thought to have died in a fiery attack. Her grandson Morgan, heir to the throne, has been captured by one of Utuk'ku's soldiers in the ruins of an abandoned city. Miriamele's husband, King Simon, is overwhelmed by grief and hopelessness, unaware that many of these terrible things have been caused by Pasevalles, a murderous traitor inside Simon's own court at the Hayholt.

Meanwhile, a deadly army of Norns led by the ageless, vengeful Queen Utuk'ku, has swept into Erkynland and thrown down the fortress of Naglimund, slaughtering the inhabitants and digging up the ancient grave of Ruyan the Navigator. Utuk'ku plans to use the Navigator's fabled armor to call up the spirit of Hakatri, the evil Storm King's brother.

Even the Sithi, fairy-kin to the Norns, are helpless to stop Utuk'ku's triumph as her armies simultaneously march on the Hayholt and force their way into the forbidden, ogre-guarded valley of Tanakirú - the Narrowdark - where a secret waits that might bring Simon's people and their Sithi allies salvation - or doom.

That one isn't that spoilery. It is quite interesting to learn that

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the weirdo ogre valley wasn't a Bombadil-like diversion but is actually a quite important piece in the larger puzzle. One imagines that Utuk'ku's interest in that place explains both the earlier secret war between Sithi and Norns we first learned about in TWC as well as the presence of the hidden Norn military outposts in the region Nezeru stumbles upon late in EoG.

I expect we are going to see Utuk'ku's army at Naglimund press one to the Hayholt while the other up further north are going to ensure that the Sithi cannot mess with the plan for the secret valley.

I must say I've no clue what is so important about this place ... and that's pretty good, since I don't want to figure out the grand plan too early.

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It still stands to reason that it is connected with Unbeing and stuff, but I think we are still in for a surprise about the root of the conflict between the Gardenborn as well as Utuk'ku's very specific issues with the Zida'ya and Tinukeda'ya.

On to the blurb for 'The Navigator's Children':

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The latest saga in the New York Times bestselling world of Osten Ard concludes in the fourth and final Last King of Osten Ard novel.
The Hayholt is in flames. Once the home of the immortal Sithi, now capital of the kingdom of men, the fabled castle has been set ablaze by vengeful Norns. And as the world is distracted by this devastating attack against humankind, the Norns' deathless witch-queen Utuk'ku reaches out to seize the fateful, ogre-haunted valley called Tanakirú--the Vale of Mists. Fooled by the Norn Queen’s trickery, Simon and the Sitha Jiriki must now leave the burning castle behind to race to the forbidden valley.  But the undead spirit known as Ommu the Whisperer travels with them, hiding in the body of Simon's granddaughter Lillia. Meanwhile, Queen Miriamele hurries to save the Hayholt and capture the treacherous noble Pasevalles, but arrives to discover the castle is on fire and the traitor has escaped. And in Tanakirú, the bond between Prince Morgan and Nezeru, a renegade Norn, has become something deeper and stranger than either of them could have anticipated.  Accompanied by Morgan's troll friends Qina and Little Snenneq, they journey ever deeper into heart of the valley’s mystery, encountering wonders and horrors, only to come face to face at last with the ancient secret that has kindled the Norn Queen's war--a secret that threatens to destroy immortals and humans alike.

Now, I think this helps us understand the title of the series.

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The titular Last King of Osten Ard is Simon - in the sense that the Hayholt/Asu'a will be destroyed and may take the High Ward/High Throne with it, fracturing the lands of Osten Ard for good.

I imagine that like with the blurb for the third book we get a summary of key events in the last book,

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meaning that Miri is not going to arrive at the burning Hayholt in book 4 but rather her finding the castle ablaze and Pasevalles gone will be the climax of her story in book 3. Hopefully we'll see her returning to Nabban in ItN to deal with the traitors there, before returning to Erkynland (there is potential there for her finding loyal folks among the people and the Niskies, etc.).

I think we can expect that Utuk'ku's attack on the Hayholt won't just be a distraction - but that she needs something from there, possibly that 'witchwood crown' stuff that was buried there with Hamakho. She would have likely not bothered with old Asu'a if all she needed was to be found in that valley in the forest.

One imagines that Unver and company are mainly going to be a distraction, ensuring the Simon and his buddies cannot properly defend the castle. Pasevalles can be as evil as he wants - but one traitor alone could not possibly ensure the Norns can burn down the castle (although he may play a crucial role in helping them to get inside).

There is a lot of interesting to story potential there - I imagine that the Pryrates thing is going to bite the dust in whatever confrontation we will see in the Hayholt. Apparently Jiriki is going to reach Simon before everything goes to hell since the leave the place together. Very intrigued by Ommu ending up in Lillia's body. I guess this could be the result of Ommu's apparent death in the Hayholt, possibly after a confrontation with one of the more powerful good guys. She could also be a wild card in that form.

Morgan and Nezeru apparently becoming lovers doesn't come as a big surprise in light of the end of book 2. It seems to be the way how Norns and humans can finally make peace once Utuk'ku is finally gone. And one assumes that both Viyeki and Tzoja will also play positive roles in this regard.

I expect the final thing the gang is going to face in the valley will have something to do with Unbeing ... but who knows?

But it is effectively confirmed that Utuk'ku's grand plan is apparently even more of a gamble than Ineluki's plan. Things could go her way - which likely means that everything will go to hell - or things might somehow go well for the good guys.

As for the speculations about

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Akhenabi betraying his queen - I don't see any indication for this in those two blurbs. If he was a big player in his own right the blurb for the final book should have at least mentioned him. It strikes me as very likely that Utuk'ku's most evil plan goes back to something that took place in the Garden - meaning that, at this point, only she can have all the crucial knowledge. She is the only one left who remembers both the Garden and the origins of Unbeing.

 

Really want to click but also don't want spoilers lol

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26 minutes ago, mix_masta_micah said:

Really want to click but also don't want spoilers lol

Well, you can read the blurb for the third book since, one assumes, you are also going to do that before you read the book.

That said - the blurb for the fourth book does indeed contain considerable spoilers for the third book, so you should stay away from that one.

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28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, you can read the blurb for the third book since, one assumes, you are also going to do that before you read the book.

That said - the blurb for the fourth book does indeed contain considerable spoilers for the third book, so you should stay away from that one.

True. I'll probably stay away for now but, man, I'm pumped for this release. For my money, it's the best currently running fantasy series out there right now (if we don't count ASOIF of course). 

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I lurb spoilers!!! Thank you.  I still want to know what happened to John Josua and where Josua ended up.

Well, John Josua is dead, and it seems the Pryrates thing killed him somehow, presumably because he was about to figure out what the Norns were planning - or already knew crucial things. Alternatively, the guy may have himself messed with evil magics for his own reasons. It is kind of odd that he didn't include his parents, wife, or the other scholars into whatever he was investigating.

Pasevalles might also have been involved in the whole thing somehow. Tiamak is speculating about the origins of the poison that was used on Tanahaya - and which may have also been used on John Josua. There are hints that it was made from dragonbone which Pryrates had stolen back in Elias' time.

If Josua is still alive he might show up again in Miri's plot. I've a feeling that if he is still alive he would be somewhere in the south. His sudden resurrection could be what restores order in Nabban - if he revealed his true parentage to the world, he would be the rightful heir of Nabban just like his father was.

But then - folks have been speculating that Josua may have been the guy Pasevalles murdered in the woods outside the Hayholt on his way there - the timeline sort of fits - but that wouldn't be a very satisfactory resolution to that plotline.

Although the only alternative I can think of is that he followed in his father's footsteps there, i.e. he may have lost his memory. And speaking about Camaris - somebody should finally mention what happened to the old man. Because he most definitely should no longer be alive at that point.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, John Josua is dead, and it seems the Pryrates thing killed him somehow, presumably because he was about to figure out what the Norns were planning - or already knew crucial things. Alternatively, the guy may have himself messed with evil magics for his own reasons. It is kind of odd that he didn't include his parents, wife, or the other scholars into whatever he was investigating.

Pasevalles might also have been involved in the whole thing somehow. Tiamak is speculating about the origins of the poison that was used on Tanahaya - and which may have also been used on John Josua. There are hints that it was made from dragonbone which Pryrates had stolen back in Elias' time.

If Josua is still alive he might show up again in Miri's plot. I've a feeling that if he is still alive he would be somewhere in the south. His sudden resurrection could be what restores order in Nabban - if he revealed his true parentage to the world, he would be the rightful heir of Nabban just like his father was.

But then - folks have been speculating that Josua may have been the guy Pasevalles murdered in the woods outside the Hayholt on his way there - the timeline sort of fits - but that wouldn't be a very satisfactory resolution to that plotline.

Although the only alternative I can think of is that he followed in his father's footsteps there, i.e. he may have lost his memory. And speaking about Camaris - somebody should finally mention what happened to the old man. Because he most definitely should no longer be alive at that point.

I have a difficult time believing Simon and Miri wouldn’t notice John Josua getting caught up in dark magics… I suspect there is more there.

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14 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have a difficult time believing Simon and Miri wouldn’t notice John Josua getting caught up in dark magics… I suspect there is more there.

But that's already effectively confirmed. John Josua secretly accessed Hjeldin's Tower and even found the book about the spirit whispers that once belonged to Pryrates. He didn't tell his parents about either of that - now, it may be he just didn't want to give them reason for concern, wanted to ensure they would not stop his investigations ... but that's not very likely.

I've remembered something ominous right now:

Spoiler

Morgan remembers how his father was very concerned about his mother's second pregnancy, wishing the child wouldn't be born. In context with the blurb revealing that Ommu is going to possess Lillia I think that's an effective confirmation that Lillia's conception was no strictly natural event. John Josua may have allowed spirits to possess him or he may have messed around with Gardenborn stuff in another unpleasant way. I don't think Ommu can just possess *anyone*, so we might be in for a pretty ugly surprise there.

I think chances are pretty good that John Josua wasn't *a good guy* but rather somebody fascinated by dark stuff who played around with it, finally realized how bad it was, tried to repent, and was murdered by Pryrates/Pasevalles before he could spill the beans to Simon and Miri.

 

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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Ayaminu part of “the Pure”?  Or just a different group of Zidi’ya near Da’ai Chikiza?

I don't think we know so far. She is the leader of the group that ends up helping Aelin, but we don't know if she is part of Pure group Tanahaya and Morgan were visiting, or whether they are another faction of Sithi who parted ways with Year-Dancing House.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think we know so far. She is the leader of the group that ends up helping Aelin, but we don't know if she is part of Pure group Tanahaya and Morgan were visiting, or whether they are another faction of Sithi who parted ways with Year-Dancing House.

I’m dying to know.  I’m also dying to know what she was really doing during The Heart of What was Lost.

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14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m dying to know.  I’m also dying to know what she was really doing during The Heart of What was Lost.

Well, I think I wrote pretty big take on this earlier. Basically, I think, she knew Yaarike from her time in Hikehikayo and she went to Nakkiga to received the document from Utuk'ku's personal archives which provided her and Tanahaya's master Himano with some clues about the great plan.

And I think Yaarike wanted to go out and meet with Isgrimnur to defect/become a prisoner so he could tell the humans more about the Norns and Utuk'ku's plans. He was pretty pissed when Viyeki volunteered to go out in person.

Originally I thought that Suno'ku was some kind of positive figure but during a reread I realized that she is pretty much how Utuk'ku may have been in her youth, having the kind of charisma and showmanship Utuk'ku used to take over the Norns. In that sense, Yaarike wanted her gone as much as the others, although for other reasons.

But I guess we will learn what Ayaminu was about pretty soon. She should provide some big clues for the good guys to guess at Utuk'ku's plans.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I think I wrote pretty big take on this earlier. Basically, I think, she knew Yaarike from her time in Hikehikayo and she went to Nakkiga to received the document from Utuk'ku's personal archives which provided her and Tanahaya's master Himano with some clues about the great plan.

And I think Yaarike wanted to go out and meet with Isgrimnur to defect/become a prisoner so he could tell the humans more about the Norns and Utuk'ku's plans. He was pretty pissed when Viyeki volunteered to go out in person.

Originally I thought that Suno'ku was some kind of positive figure but during a reread I realized that she is pretty much how Utuk'ku may have been in her youth, having the kind of charisma and showmanship Utuk'ku used to take over the Norns. In that sense, Yaarike wanted her gone as much as the others, although for other reasons.

But I guess we will learn what Ayaminu was about pretty soon. She should provide some big clues for the good guys to guess at Utuk'ku's plans.

I’m so looking forward to the next book.  :)

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m so looking forward to the next book.  :)

Are you through with your reread at this point?

And to pass the time, any theories you might want to share? Talk about the spoilery stuff from the blurb(s) I gave above?

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I’m almost done.  I forget is Xaniko the exile (whose poem Viyeki recalls right before Utuk’ku arrives) the same one Hakatri’s squire visits in Brothers of the Wind?  
 

I’m curious to see how Pasevalles twists the knife… and where Jiriki and Aditu fit into the close of this story.  I think the voice Hakatri hears at Sesuad’ra is Tanahaya.  It just sounds like her to me.

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To speculate a little more myself:

I think undead Makho will come in handy as an unstoppable warrior in the attack on Asu'a. Hakatri will likely be there until the end of the series, since I think his choice is not going to be something he will have to make in book 3, so he should be safe from lasting harm in ItN.

Spoiler

If the humans aren't *that* incompetent and do fight back against the Norns - say, because Unver and Tzoja end up meeting each other before Asu'a burns - then I could also see Akhenabi sacrificing Saomeji - who almost certainly is his son - and even himself, to ensure Utuk'ku gets what she needs.

If they truly want that witchwood crown hidden in the foundation of the castle then removing it might be very difficult - and the removal as such might destroy the magical foundation of Asu'a, triggering its collapse. After all, the document says the witchwood crown was hidden beneath the keystone of Asu'a.

If it turns out that Hakatri is going to play a crucial role in the Asu'a plan then, I think, chances are very high indeed the current Norn plan is actually a continuation of the plan Utuk'ku had once Ineluki was safely installed in Elias' body. After all, we can only assume that the stolen document from Utuk'ku's archive has any meaning in relation to her plans if those plans were already made by the time it was stolen. And it definitely looks as if that document was stolen from Nakkiga by Yaarike and handed to Ayaminu in THoWWL, i.e. shortly after Ineluki failed and Utuk'ku went to sleep. If the current plan was a new plan made during her sleep or only after she awakened, then it would be a very happy coincidence that the stolen document helps with deciphering that plan.

Not to mention that the secret Norn military outposts which seem to have been made and manned during Utuk'ku's sleep were made with the general outlines of her plan in mind.

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m almost done.  I forget is Xaniko the exile (whose poem Viyeki recalls right before Utuk’ku arrives) the same one Hakatri’s squire visits in Brothers of the Wind

Yes, that's the guy. I expected some great insights from him in BotW but he preferred to brood a lot ;-). So far we don't have confirmation that Xaniko is dead at this point, so he could pop up eventually. But more importantly, descendants of his and Lady Ona - or descendants of Pamon Kes and Sholi - might play a role when we meet some more Tinukeda'ya.

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I’m curious to see how Pasevalles twists the knife… and where Jiriki and Aditu fit into the close of this story.  I think the voice Hakatri hears at Sesuad’ra is Tanahaya.  It just sounds like her to me.

I always thought Hakatri's vision woman might be Likimeya - he is so estranged from his daughter in BotW that it would be satisfying if she played a crucial role getting him back on the right track. I imagine she could reach through time right now, considering where she is at this point - between life and death, in the spirit world, etc.

I'm not sure Pasevalles needs to do much more - I imagine Hugh and Tylleth are going to play a crucial role in him getting away. The Norns might call on them in their attack on the Hayholt, and unless he ends up with the actual Norn host they seem to be his only allies left. His buddies in Nabban don't seem to be in the shape of helping him.

He might be more occupied obscuring things and distracting the others than be able to make the right move. The arrival of Countess Yissola already threatens to unravel his manipulation of the trade war between Perdruin and the Hernystiri merchants. Wouldn't surprise me if he has to go literally underground at one point, eventually opening the gates of Asu'a to the Norns with the help of the Pryrates thing.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

or descendants of Pamon Kes and Sholi - might play a role when we meet some more Tinukeda'ya.

If Simon weren’t the perfect tool for destruction right now I’d say he is the descendant of Pamon Kes to watch… as it is I think it is Morgan.  

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

If Simon weren’t the perfect tool for destruction right now I’d say he is the descendant of Pamon Kes to watch… as it is I think it is Morgan.  

Well, I think Simon is going to get his act together once he is reunited with Jiriki. I mean, Tad kind of messed with the fans by keeping him away from Simon for two books, so it must mean something when they finally meet. Could be some kind of carthatic moment of healing, like in 'Excalibur' when Arthur drinks from the Grail (although I'm sure the land is not going to bloom).

Also I think if or once Eolair gets back to the Hayholt things should at least get a little better. Might be he will be delayed/stuck in that Thrithing campaign thing, but should he get back before everything burns he certainly would be the guy to take charge and prevent the government from falling apart - and Aengas and Tiamak and Yissola are there, too. Duke Osric is likely going to run amok, though.

But I really think Tad kind of dropped the ball in the Sithi department. It just makes no sense that Jiriki and Aditu wouldn't leave a witness with Simon and Miri - just in case they needed to make quick contact.

It would have been pretty easy to just introduce such a witness as being lost or destroyed somehow, which would then just as well establish the need for envoys. After all, we do learn that witnesses tend to disappear thanks to those traitors, so it is easily imaginable that a witness of Simon's was also misplaced, destroyed, or kind of disappeared when John Josua died.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I really think Tad kind of dropped the ball in the Sithi department. It just makes no sense that Jiriki and Aditu wouldn't leave a witness with Simon and Miri - just in case they needed to make quick contact.

It would have been pretty easy to just introduce such a witness as being lost or destroyed somehow, which would then just as well establish the need for envoys. After all, we do learn that witnesses tend to disappear thanks to those traitors, so it is easily imaginable that a witness of Simon's was also misplaced, destroyed, or kind of disappeared when John Josua died.

I think that all depends on the rarity of witnesses and the danger of their use.    Then again Jiriki gave a boy wandering in the wilderness a witness… so… you have a point.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think that all depends on the rarity of witnesses and the danger of their use.    Then against Jiriki gave a boy wandering in the wilderness a witness… so… you have a point.

Yeah, I mean, they intended to stay in contact at the end of MST, so it strikes as kind of important that they would be given the means to do so.

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A thought did occur to me:

Spoiler

What if “the Ogre” is Ruyan Ve?  And he is called “the Traitor” because he partook of the witchwood long life potion that Pamon Kes refused.  

The reason no Kedi’ya are “allowed” into the valley of the Narrowdark is because Ruyan Ve has been made outcast and somehow bound to that locale.

 

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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