Tad Williams - The Witchwood Crown / Empire of Grass spoiler thread

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

What the hell is the Red thing below the Castle?  I’m almost finished and I still haven’t a clue as to what it might be…

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What the hell is the Red thing below the Castle?  I’m almost finished and I still haven’t a clue as to what it might be…

Isn't it clear that it is whatever remains of Pryrates? Morgan saw his face, so something of him must have survived.

I still don't like the idea that the guy survived in some form. After all, his death scene seemed so very final in TGAT that I never even considered that something of the guy may have survived.

Now, it is completely unclear what the purpose of that creature is, but I guess

Spoiler

the thing will be instrumental in giving the good guys some clues about the John Josua situation and also what the hell is wrong or strange with Lillia. Tiamak and Thelía are still down there, so they should lead eventually interact with the creature. It might also be that Simon and Jiriki go down there should Lillia tell them about the monster and the witness she found and lost there. In MST one of the Red Hand taught Pryrates the Words of Changing - apparently very powerful magic he used in the end to try to control Ineluki and which clearly turned him into something inhuman, capable of surviving injuries that would have killed humans.
It would strike me as not unlikely at all if it turned out that Ommu was the particular member of the Red Hand who gave Pryrates those Words ... and who might now have words with him again for whatever reason. Unlike what the blurb of the final book implied, Simon and Jiriki seem/must be aware that Ommu took possession of Lillia, so there certainly is a potential plot there leading to the Pryrates thing. I guess Ommu and Simon/Jiriki will get to a kind of weirdo stalemate. They cannot get her out of Lillia, and one expects that she wants to go to the valley, too, so they might travel there together.

From EoG we know that the creature acted as guardian of the Master Witness under Asu'a. It allowed Pasevalles to use it for some reason, so it certainly acts on behalf of the Norns in some capacity.

The big mystery with Pasevalles still kind of is (1) why and how he ended up working with the Norns, and (2) what the hell they wanted from him and what he ended up doing specifically for them?

When he arrived at the Hayholt and

Spoiler

murdered Josua

his goals seemed to be rather mundane. Petty revenge, creating chaos, etc. His ultimate cynicism kind of explains why he would work with the Norns, but not how and why he ended up contacting them. It is very difficult to imagine that he initiated that contact. For that he would have to know that they were still in the game.

Spoiler

I guess John Josua must be the key there. He owned at least one of Pryrates old books, so he must have investigated the tower, eventually chancing on the red thing, too. I'd not be surprised if Pasevalles spied on John Josua, and was led to Pryrates and the Norns by him. What exactly John Josua could have wanted from them and 'evil magic' in general is unclear at this point, but there may have been a more sinister aspect to his character than we know so far. He was most definitely into things he wanted to keep from his parents ... and about which he didn't talk with anyone at the Hayholt ... although he did contact Josua about the stuff, apparently. But that was around the time Pasevalles came to court and murdered Josua, when John Josua was still only in his early teens. Josua wanted to dissuade him from his studies, but it never happened, so he continued his studies and eventually got himself killed.

 

[Lord Varys]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:34 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I skipped ahead and read to the end of Morgan/Nezeru’s story because I couldn’t resist.

  Reveal hidden contents

That was one of the sweetest and most genuine “love stories” I’ve read in a long time.  It was natural and it didn’t seem forced to me.  I hope they both survive.

 

I enjoyed quite a few passages there as well. I think the

Spoiler

the hollow tree scene

may have been a little bit too much, but it was still pretty fun to read.

I think it is somewhat of a pity that they only get together this late in the story. It could have been interesting to see what they would be doing as a team after they are no longer in the middle of nowhere all by themselves.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Isn't it clear that it is whatever remains of Pryrates? Morgan saw his face, so something of him must have survived.

I still don't like the idea that the guy survived in some form. After all, his death scene seemed so very final in TGAT that I never even considered that something of the guy may have survived.

Now, it is completely unclear what the purpose of that creature is, but I guess

  Hide contents

the thing will be instrumental in giving the good guys some clues about the John Josua situation and also what the hell is wrong or strange with Lillia. Tiamak and Thelía are still down there, so they should lead eventually interact with the creature. It might also be that Simon and Jiriki go down there should Lillia tell them about the monster and the witness she found and lost there. In MST one of the Red Hand taught Pryrates the Words of Changing - apparently very powerful magic he used in the end to try to control Ineluki and which clearly turned him into something inhuman, capable of surviving injuries that would have killed humans.
It would strike me as not unlikely at all if it turned out that Ommu was the particular member of the Red Hand who gave Pryrates those Words ... and who might now have words with him again for whatever reason. Unlike what the blurb of the final book implied, Simon and Jiriki seem/must be aware that Ommu took possession of Lillia, so there certainly is a potential plot there leading to the Pryrates thing. I guess Ommu and Simon/Jiriki will get to a kind of weirdo stalemate. They cannot get her out of Lillia, and one expects that she wants to go to the valley, too, so they might travel there together.

From EoG we know that the creature acted as guardian of the Master Witness under Asu'a. It allowed Pasevalles to use it for some reason, so it certainly acts on behalf of the Norns in some capacity.

The big mystery with Pasevalles still kind of is (1) why and how he ended up working with the Norns, and (2) what the hell they wanted from him and what he ended up doing specifically for them?

When he arrived at the Hayholt and

  Hide contents

murdered Josua

his goals seemed to be rather mundane. Petty revenge, creating chaos, etc. His ultimate cynicism kind of explains why he would work with the Norns, but not how and why he ended up contacting them. It is very difficult to imagine that he initiated that contact. For that he would have to know that they were still in the game.

  Hide contents

I guess John Josua must be the key there. He owned at least one of Pryrates old books, so he must have investigated the tower, eventually chancing on the red thing, too. I'd not be surprised if Pasevalles spied on John Josua, and was led to Pryrates and the Norns by him. What exactly John Josua could have wanted from them and 'evil magic' in general is unclear at this point, but there may have been a more sinister aspect to his character than we know so far. He was most definitely into things he wanted to keep from his parents ... and about which he didn't talk with anyone at the Hayholt ... although he did contact Josua about the stuff, apparently. But that was around the time Pasevalles came to court and murdered Josua, when John Josua was still only in his early teens. Josua wanted to dissuade him from his studies, but it never happened, so he continued his studies and eventually got himself killed.

 

Spoiler

The beast turning out to be the remnants of Pyrates just seems too obvious to me.  If they hadn’t seen John Josua’s corpse I’d suspect it was John Josua…

I’ve not read a lot of William’s other work… does he do the obvious like that often?

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

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The beast turning out to be the remnants of Pyrates just seems too obvious to me.  If they hadn’t seen John Josua’s corpse I’d suspect it was John Josua…

I’ve not read a lot of William’s other work… does he do the obvious like that often?

 

Well, the book also kind of offers the possibility that it might be Cadrach's remains. But I'm not sure why Cadrach should continue to exist as some kind of evil red monster. But his death was at least never confirmed, and Pasevalles himself raises that possibility when considering the identity of the monster.

While it is conceivable that Pryrates may have survived even Ineluki's punishment somehow (although he really seemed to be burned completely, so still weird), I just don't see how Cadrach could be transformed into some kind of a monster.

Although there could certainly be some explanation for this since the guy did know more than some magic, so if survived the collapse of the tower, got trapped in some deeper cavern and then somehow infected with evil magical substances, etc.

But it is so obvious that it is Pryrates' remains in some fashion - not just what Morgan saw, but also Simon's own dreams when his son died about John Josua as a mouse being trapped by a Pryrates cat.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

@Lord Varys

Spoiler

One othet point… the Ogre.  Did you get the impression from the Morgan/Nezeru chapters that “the Ogre” might be something mechanical stomping endlessly up and down the valley?  It seemed much larger in this book than in the EoG.  Clearly something really funky there.

Also, what do you make of Amerasu’s brief appearance in Simon’s fever dream?

 

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@Lord Varys

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One othet point… the Ogre.  Did you get the impression from the Morgan/Nezeru chapters that “the Ogre” might be something mechanical stomping endlessly up and down the valley?  It seemed much larger in this book than in the EoG.  Clearly something really funky there.

Also, what do you make of Amerasu’s brief appearance in Simon’s fever dream?

I've really no idea about the metaphysical implication about all that. It seems pretty obvious that the valley does contain something that Utuk'ku might use to destroy the world. It must be something connected to the Tinukeda'ya and the Garden, and I guess the fact that one of the Great Ships 'landed' close by might have something to do with that.

But more than that ... really no idea.

I think we would know more if the book had included

Spoiler

the story Ayaminu announced to tell in one of the last chapters. I'd imagine that her visit to Nakkiga had something to do with that, and whatever information she gathered back then caused the Sithi to take really great efforts to protect the valley, despite the fact that apparently very few of them actually understand why this is necessary.

Apparently the Witchwood Crown is also to be found there, indicating it is still 'a thing of some kind' and not only a device. I guess the way Utuk'ku treated and used Muyare could indicate that his wife was the one Ayaminu talked to. She was apparently very wroth that he told his wife ... which shouldn't have been an issue if she hadn't talked to somebody else.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

@Lord Varys

Spoiler

New prediction.  There is an intact ship at the north end of Tanakirú.  The Vao are being drawn their to either crew the ship as Utt’ku flees (again) or to destroy the ship so no one can flee.

 

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@Lord Varys

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New prediction.  There is an intact ship at the north end of Tanakirú.  The Vao are being drawn their to either crew the ship as Utt’ku flees (again) or to destroy the ship so no one can flee.

 

Spoiler

Don't think Utuk'ku wants to go anywhere. Sure, she could have lied to Tzoja about her condition and all. But the impression we have, I think, is that she is dying now and is only interested into pulling off this last great stunt which will apparently destroy the world.

What she revealed about the witchwood fruits also seems to imply that her secret to immortality goes back to them, with the other evil magics helping her to cope with all that, but not really being the thing that grants her such a long life. But Zuniyabe implied that when you start to reach the point where life is extended beyond what's normal even with the witchwood fruits then things start to get ugly. Utuk'ku seems to be in constant pain because she extended her life well beyond anything that's reasonable. And the implication we have with the other Gardenborn and their propensity for madness or odd behavior later in life also implies that it isn't good if you do this. Tanahaya's mother also seemed to have suffered from something like that, and Iyu'unigato clearly succumbed to some kind of mad death wish, too.

The information we have so far implies that Utuk'ku is summoning all the Tinukeda'ya by ways of her hold over the trinity goddess. But there certainly must be a reason why they are summoned to the valley. The idea that there might be an intact ship there is pretty good, actually. If she wants to unleash or bring Unbeing to Osten Ard, a ship could serve as a kind of conduit or bridge to the destroyed Garden.

And it seems that Hakatri in combination with the Navigator's armor is also a key element there, and his importance seems to be connected to his accident with the dragon blood.

I think the idea that the Garden was some kind of alternate version of the Osten Ard reality and the ships took them across the void of many possible worlds is somethng that might have some bearing after all. After all, the three-headed goddess thing implies that if Likimeya ran the show there the outcome could be different ... which might mean that this is how they are going to prevent utter disaster. And that could mean that the world is, in the end, reshaped in certain aspects rather than destroyed. The Tinukeda'ya could get their freedom back, could be free to return to their ocean, the witchwood trees could be restored, etc.

I expect that it is going to turn out that Hakatri's important decision will be about enabling his daughter to call the shots within the goddess trinity thing.

Amerasu's brief appearance strikes me as just a kind of nice easter egg. Sort of like Leleth's brief return in TWC. It was good to learn that Ineluki actually tried to murder his mother, too, after he killed his father, explaining why Amerasu apparently couldn't do anything to stop him. I guess Briseyu kind of avoided Ineluki since it seems her death on the steps was caused by the Rimmersmen.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

@Lord Varys

Spoiler

If, as we have suspected, Simon and Morgan are descendants of Pamen Kes I wonder if Hakatri will be able to tell.  That such recognition will somehow pull Hakatri out of Utuk’ku’s thrall…

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Is Khendra’jaro not Hakatri’s son?  He’s spoken of as Lilimakia’s brother… but he’s never mentioned as Hakatri’s son…

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

@Lord Varys

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If, as we have suspected, Simon and Morgan are descendants of Pamen Kes I wonder if Hakatri will be able to tell.  That such recognition will somehow pull Hakatri out of Utuk’ku’s thrall…

 

Hm, Simon might have some Niskie background, but so far he isn't really affected by the summoning, so I don't think that means all that much.

I'm kind of assuming that the Voice of the Vao person might be both a descendant of Kes/Sholi and Ruyan Vé. Xaniko and Ona didn't seem to have any children.

The number of times Yaarike comes up in the book could also be a hint that we learn something about his untimely death. Allegedly an accident, but it could easily have been an arranged accident.

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Khendra’jaro not Hakatri’s son?  He’s spoken of as Lilimakia’s brother… but he’s never mentioned as Hakatri’s son…

He is Likimeya's half-brother, but according to Jiriki in ITN he also shares Utuk'ku's bloodline, so Briseyu or her second husband apparently also had some kind of blood relation to Year-Dancing House ... or to the Hamakha clan.

Strangely enough, Briseyu and Nidreyu's father from BOTW is named Ja'aro ... I guess both Khendraja'aro and his nephew Yeja'aro are named after that guy, a Sitha who was prone to complain a lot in old age. But this doesn't tell us who might be his father.

I had forgotten that Ayaminu's father Kuroyi was the Sitha killed by Utuk'ku at the fountain beneath Asu'a in TGAT. Anvi'janya is mentioned a couple of times in that book, but the city as such came as a pretty big surprise in the new book, showing that the Sithi are still not truly done.

It also came as a surprise to me that Yizashi, the son of Enazashi who ruled Mezutu'a in BOTW is now apparently living at Skyglass Lake. He showed up in TGAT, too, but not in connection to that place. I guess he may have ended up marrying Vinaju, the daughter of Vinadarta. At least that could explain why he ended up there and not at Asu'a or some other place.

 

[Lord Varys]

It is kind of vexing that they don't keep their degrees of kinship straight.

It seems pretty obvious now that Jijibo is a direct descendant of Utuk'ku - her great-grandson. Pratiki, on the other hand, is a many times great-grandnephew, apparently descended from whatever brothers or sister Utuk'ku had.

With the Sithi it is even more convoluted.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It also came as a surprise to me that Yizashi, the son of Enazashi who ruled Mezutu'a in BOTW is now apparently living at Skyglass Lake. He showed up in TGAT, too, but not in connection to that place. I guess he may have ended up marrying Vinaju, the daughter of Vinadarta. At least that could explain why he ended up there and not at Asu'a or some other place.

 

I noticed that nugget too.  TBOtW is really a necessary read for this series… and a great book besides.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

So, I’m working through the series in audiobook format too.  Could Geloë be Simon’s GGGgrandmother?  Could she be the “River witch” Eahlstan is rumored to have married?

[Argonath Diver]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So, I’m working through the series in audiobook format too.  Could Geloë be Simon’s GGGgrandmother?  Could she be the “River witch” Eahlstan is rumored to have married?

A bit off-topic, as I'm still reading through Into the Narrowdark myself. I initially tried an audiobook of it I checked out through the library. I generally have a hard time with audiobooks, as I read extremely fast at times, and ponderously slow at others - and can't speed up a narrator at will. 

More-so, the narrator for the series has been delightful for many characters - however, every Norn and Sithi character, and even the trolls, he drops to a harsh whisper. With earbuds on, the hiss of female Norns and Sithi caused my ears actual discomfort, and I simply am unable to listen to the book. Are my ears just that, well, wimpy - or Andrew Wincott's portrayal of the otherworldly characters simply not for me?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

23 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

With earbuds on, the hiss of female Norns and Sithi caused my ears actual discomfort, and I simply am unable to listen to the book. Are my ears just that, well, wimpy - or Andrew Wincott's portrayal of the otherworldly characters simply not for me?

He does get raspy with the Keda’ya characters.  I’m listing with earbuds too.

[Argonath Diver]

Regardless, I'm very much enjoying the third book so far (now that I've gotten a physical copy from their request network). Looking forward to actually reading this thread soon!

[SeanF]

Gosh, I thought it was coming by out next year.  I must get this.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

If as Tanahaya claims in EoG the “Unbeing” makes it as though things had never existed how can she tell a story about the Hikeda’ya philosopher who discovered the Unbeing and then was destroyed by it?  Doesn’t that contradict “the Unbeing’s” declared impact?