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Count Balerion

Character arc ranto (SPOILERS)

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25 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Oops, this isn't one. Still, lord this is such a lot of tiresome fanboi-ism, I thought this thread was a refuge where it wouldn't be encountered, at least at such stupefying length. I have no stamina for countering it.

I am sorry that I hindered your rant. Feel free to moan from now on.

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Yah, it was sort of a mini-rant thread plus a bit of humour. If I'd done a reasoned, considered discussion of the arcs, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fun!

Although I think my description is essentially correct (with references, some textual, to what D&D have said). But I can't be shocked and surprised that someone objected.

Now, on a LIGHTER note:

I had a horrible thought about Jon. He has Targaryen blood, and as is well-known they're all genocidal loonies. Further, he's chopped off people's heads, burnt innocent wights, and put to death children whose parents had been gobbled up by Wildlings. Is this all Foreshadowing that he's going to chainsaw-massacre a million innocent children? Is he going to go Mad Lord Commander? Or does the fortunate fact that he's a chap mean that he is safe from Evil?

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:26 AM, Count Balerion said:

So … let's see where we are with the major character arcs:

My conclusion is that by last ep I just hated everybody. I have no idea how we go from the books to that ending and I am not sure if I want to know.

 

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11 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

Yah, it was sort of a mini-rant thread plus a bit of humour. If I'd done a reasoned, considered discussion of the arcs, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fun!

Although I think my description is essentially correct (with references, some textual, to what D&D have said). But I can't be shocked and surprised that someone objected.

Now, on a LIGHTER note:

I had a horrible thought about Jon. He has Targaryen blood, and as is well-known they're all genocidal loonies. Further, he's chopped off people's heads, burnt innocent wights, and put to death children whose parents had been gobbled up by Wildlings. Is this all Foreshadowing that he's going to chainsaw-massacre a million innocent children? Is he going to go Mad Lord Commander? Or does the fortunate fact that he's a chap mean that he is safe from Evil?

Well Tywin Lannister wiped out the entire Reyne family for the crimes of a few, and instead of being dubbed "the mad Hand of the King", he got a song made about it. So I guess chaps are exempt.

Well, chaps, and Arya, who baked some dudes into a pie and then poisoned an entire family, yet no one ever said this was foreshadowing "mad Arya", probably because she's a cool tom boy.

Anyway, thankfully the Hound managed to save her from herself, because clearly after baking some people into pie and poisoning an entire family, killing Cersei just would have been a step too far down the path of vengeance.

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(The thread was mainly directed at "ranters", and was along the lines: "WE know this doesn't make much sense; so let's have some fun seeing what happens if we try to make it make it sense! It works better w/ some characters than others, b/c some characters' are more damaged than others: Sansa works OK thematically, barring the Ramsay assault scene (though she gets awfully snarky); Dany is a disaster.

My dirty secret is that I like the Arya-Hound rapport in season 8.)

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18 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

My dirty secret is that I like the Arya-Hound rapport in season 8.)

Sandor the Quippy brought his spirit daughter to work.. murder.. you know what I meant! 

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On 6/20/2019 at 1:00 PM, Count Balerion said:

On a lighter note: Sam's arc is a doozy! Goes from bullied and threatened with murther by his father, to Sam the Slayer who's bro and kewl, to Citadel acolyte who doesn't need to learn anything b/c he can cure greyscale, w/ no side effects, overnight (!), to would-be-kingmaker, to Grand Maester. Bother, I left out the kleptomania.

You forgot that he turned right back into a cowardly loser when it most counted, well after he'd been a slayer bro that was kewl, thus destroying one of the few positives of his arc.  You also forgot he got to bone cutesy woman that made his most important discoveries for him then got pregnant and almost as big as him.  So he had that going for him too!

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On 6/20/2019 at 7:18 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM trashed the ending of LOST but I think this was even worse than that mess.

GRRM recently:  “The internet is toxic in a way that old fanzine culture and fandoms — comics fans, science fiction fans — in those days, was not,” he said. “There were disagreements. There were feuds, but nothing like the madness that you see on the Internet.”

Damon Lindleof, LOST creator, in response:

“I agree with you, George. And I remain a huge fan of your work. That said, I’ve always wondered if you’d be House Stark or House Lannister… now I know it’s House Glass. Let’s stop throwing stones, shall we? #TheNorthRemembers #Turd" (x).

Seems like he's getting back at GRRM for trashing the LOST ending.

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14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM recently:  “The internet is toxic in a way that old fanzine culture and fandoms — comics fans, science fiction fans — in those days, was not,” he said. “There were disagreements. There were feuds, but nothing like the madness that you see on the Internet.”

Damon Lindleof, LOST creator, in response:

“I agree with you, George. And I remain a huge fan of your work. That said, I’ve always wondered if you’d be House Stark or House Lannister… now I know it’s House Glass. Let’s stop throwing stones, shall we? #TheNorthRemembers #Turd" (x).

Seems like he's getting back at GRRM for trashing the LOST ending.

I'm sure Damon Lindelof has been waiting years for his chance to get back at GRRM for that comment about LOST, he's probably been rehearsing his response in the mirror for years and just been waiting for his opportunity to use it.

The only problem is...GRRM isn't responsible for the ending to GoT, whereas Lindelof was fully responsible for the ending to LOST, so...IMO it just makes him look silly.

I think his original response years ago, where he tuned GRRM for taking so long to write the books, was a more effective burn. Pointing the finger at George and saying "haha you screwed up YOUR ending too, so suck it!" doesn't work cause GRRM can just shrug and say "actually I haven't done my ending yet, the show is a separate thing, so you're still the only one out of the two of us who delivered a shitty ending". On the other hand, pointing the finger at George and saying "well, at least I delivered an ending", GRRM would have to concede that's a good point.

 

 

 

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On 6/21/2019 at 2:04 PM, Kajjo said:

Yeah, that was a difficult line. Maybe he wanted to justify himself or he wanted to give Brienne a reason to let him go. 

"Not caring about" is a very general phrase. I guess when he killed the Mad King he didn't want to burn down whole King's Landing. Neither the city nor the inhabitant. He did care to a certain degree. But not as much as "he really cared for the people", more in a general way.

Fine, thanks.

Yes, the show was too compressed. They should have shown us some discussions with Daenerys. But anyway we have to assume that there were dialogue between all them and that their main advisors knew that Daenerys was on the brink, was difficult to control and had a violent streak. 

I find it believable for a turning coat as Varys that he turns his favor from Daenerys to Jon. It is very obvious that Jon has the better heart, the better intentions and is appreciated much more by the common people. Varys made the mistake to be too obvious. He knew that it was a high risk to leave Daenerys.

That's right. Sansa's point is very clear. I don't understand why so many people whine about it.

The thing is, we should not have to assume this.  It ought to be there in the story.  There is no justification at any part of Varys's story (as shown on the screen) for him to betray (and attempt to poison) a person who forgave him an earlier assassination attempt and to whom he gave allegiance.  It doesn't matter whether he thinks Jon would make the better king, he gave an oath and should stick to it.  The Showrunners butchered his character by suddenly giving him 21st century attitudes towards war in Season 7, and then talking treason at the top of his voice in Season 8. 

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

he gave an oath and should stick to it. 

Then you have seen a different show. Oath are broken on a regular basis, both in show and in real life.

Varys is depicted as one of the biggest turncoat ever. He changes his allegiance as suits him best and it was actually REALLY expected that he would do so again. Come on, that is straight-forward in the show. Varys is not a reliable partner. He's a turncoat par excellence.

Varys claims to be in allegiance "with the realm", whatever that means. They made this clear early on in the show. Varys was Master of Whisperers for Aerys II, for Robert Baratheon, for the Lannisters, and adviser to Daenerys. What do you expect?

This is the point of rant that I really don't like. Varys role was very clear that of a mysterious turncoat of unclear intentions. From S1 to S8. No character assassination at all here. Come on!

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Then you have seen a different show. Oath are broken on a regular basis, both in show and in real life.

Varys is depicted as one of the biggest turncoat ever. He changes his allegiance as suits him best and it was actually REALLY expected that he would do so again. Come on, that is straight-forward in the show. Varys is not a reliable partner. He's a turncoat par excellence.

Varys claims to be in allegiance "with the realm", whatever that means. They made this clear early on in the show. Varys was Master of Whisperers for Aerys II, for Robert Baratheon, for the Lannisters, and adviser to Daenerys. What do you expect?

This is the point of rant that I really don't like. Varys role was very clear that of a mysterious turncoat of unclear intentions. From S1 to S8. No character assassination at all here. Come on!

 

 

A case of motiveless malignity, then?

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

A case of motiveless malignity, then?

No, why?

He realised Daenerys' true nature and preferred Jon. Not a bad choice.  

Varys is a turncoat. Maybe he was right to support Jon after all?

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On 6/22/2019 at 1:11 AM, Count Balerion said:

I had a horrible thought about Jon. He has Targaryen blood, and as is well-known they're all genocidal loonies. Further, he's chopped off people's heads, burnt innocent wights, and put to death children whose parents had been gobbled up by Wildlings. Is this all Foreshadowing that he's going to chainsaw-massacre a million innocent children? Is he going to go Mad Lord Commander? Or does the fortunate fact that he's a chap mean that he is safe from Evil?

 

On 6/22/2019 at 1:11 PM, Darryk said:

Well Tywin Lannister wiped out the entire Reyne family for the crimes of a few, and instead of being dubbed "the mad Hand of the King", he got a song made about it. So I guess chaps are exempt.

That's different; they both have a penis: therefore, their actions are sane and justified.

 

>>Well, chaps, and Arya, who baked some dudes into a pie and then poisoned an entire family, yet no one ever said this was foreshadowing "mad Arya", probably because she's a cool tom boy.

Anyway, thankfully the Hound managed to save her from herself, because clearly after baking some people into pie and poisoning an entire family, killing Cersei just would have been a step too far down the path of vengeance.

 

Heh, yes. Arya's different because... well... 1) revenge is kewl 2) She did not kill indiscriminately: She only killed all the male freys, and I'm sure they were all guilty; of more than a hundred men, nobody was sick that day, or on an errand, or hiding in fear or whatever. And she spared all the women; it is clear as day that none of them contributed in any way, shape or form to the Red Wedding. And I'm sure they'll do fine without all the men in a patriarchal society. See, Arya was just and fair. Also, she has no interest in ruling.

So yes, it's the Targaryan genes, when coupled with a female desire for power. Then even having been raped is not enough to make her strong and remain sane. (Or was she simply not raped long enough? Too long ago? I'm so confused.) It's completely logical, don't you see?

 

Rgarding Dany's arc: I still think she flipped because she was dissed at the prom, so to speak. Nobody talked to her at the feast, her friends were strangely absent, her bf joined the others instead of entertaining her ... It's embarrassing for a girl.

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The only weird thing is that none of the Frey women was a genocidal maniac. Probably they weren't powerful enough.

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