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US Politics: 40 Acres and Barack Obama


Fragile Bird

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Well, I think that after all that I am leaning Warren, followed by Harris, then Sanders. I think Sanders had a very good night though, just as Warren had a good night last one. Not sure if it was because she was at the kid's table, but Warren seemed to dominate the debate even more than Sanders did his. I'm pretty confident that any of the 3 of Warren, Harris, or Sanders could make mince meat of Trump though. 

I think Buttigieg would be a great VP choice as well. He is clearly a talent.

I don't really get the Sanders hate. I'm not a supporter of his and I voted against him last time, I just don't hate him as some Dems seem to, I'm kind of neutral on him. It's pretty clear he showed some skills tonight and it would be foolish to ignore that. I think we owe him as well for driving the debate to the left, in particular on the minimum wage. 

And Harris showed real courage, both in supporting abolishing private insurance and in going after Biden. 

Looks like Harris won the top of Politico...

Kamala Harris breaks out
The California senator dominated, ripping into Joe Biden on race and delivering some of the most memorable moments of the night.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/27/best-debate-moments-highlights-1385941

Quote

 

MIAMI — For the first half of Thursday’s presidential debate, Joe Biden looked as if he would somehow be able to stand at center stage yet not be the center of the bullseye of other candidates’ attacks.

California Sen. Kamala Harris changed that, taking Biden to task for his opposition to busing and his working relationships decades ago as a U.S. senator.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Going to assume that's a Massachusetts, CT, PA,  or NJ, driving complaint about a NY competent driver using the turn signals appropriately.

Hey!  My first license was from NY.  Not going to venture to say I was a competent driver at the time, but nothing bad happened.

3 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

I think Buttigieg would be a great VP choice as well. He is clearly a talent.

I only saw the last half hour, but I have to say if anyone stood out it was Buttigieg.  He had a great closing statement.  I thought Harris did really well also but I'm biased there.

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5 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

.....

I don't really get the Sanders hate. I'm not a supporter of his and I voted against him last time, I just don't hate him as some Dems seem to, I'm kind of neutral on him. It's pretty clear he showed some skills tonight and it would be foolish to ignore that. I think we owe him as well for driving the debate to the left, in particular on the minimum wage. 

......

I'm not sure if I'd say I hate Sanders, but I really really dislike him.  My reasons, fair or not, would be:

  • I think he's an economic progressive rather than a social progressive.  By which I mean his only focus is on poor vs rich, and his answer to the other issues (such as discrimination) is to simply help the poor.  This is an approach which has been shown to fail again and again and again at improving the lot of disadvantaged minorities.
  • I don't like the fact that he spent decades as an independent, then because of the USA's stupid weak party system was able to jump into the Democratic primary, and then claim he's like a democrat, and whine when the party he had been outside of and in opposition to for a couple of decades did treat him fair. Diddums. 
  • I think too many of his solutions although good goals, have no framework to actually be achievable.  I think he entirely ignores the realities blocking those initiatives.  
  • I don't like that he wants to target Trump voters, which I have doubts about as a winning strategy.  I think the people who wanted Sanders to win the 2016 primary, but voted Trump, is not as relevant as he thinks.  I think those voters are gone, and he'll lose time, money and focus targeting them. 
  • Although I thought he did well to help shift the Democratic party left in 2016, I also think at the end of the day he made a lot of decisions which hurt Clinton and helped Trump.  And I think he did them knowingly.  So as someone who helped get Trump in, I've got disdain for him.
  • I also think he's too old, but that is me being ageist.  
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4 minutes ago, ants said:

I don't like the fact that he spent decades as an independent, then because of the USA's stupid weak party system was able to jump into the Democratic primary, and then claim he's like a democrat, and whine when the party he had been outside of and in opposition to for a couple of decades did treat him fair. Diddums. 

It is particularly delicious that he built a career running as an outsider to Democratic institutions, then whined about being treated as an outsider to Democratic institutions when he ran for president.  That's one of the many many reasons Bernie Sanders is a piece of shit, as you detailed.  He belongs on Bill Maher barely-coherently berating Republicans.  Not as a legitimate POTUS candidate.

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Just watched Harris on MSNBC.  I am biased, but yeah I don't care, Harris won.  She went through the entire interview and said almost exactly what I'd want her to say if I was an advisor (she kinda stumbled on the foreign policy/Iran question, but that's it).  Hopefully she gets some run from this.

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3 minutes ago, ants said:

 Although I thought he did well to help shift the Democratic party left in 2016, I also think at the end of the day he made a lot of decisions which hurt Clinton and helped Trump.  And I think he did them knowingly.  So as someone who helped get Trump in, I've got disdain for him.

Normally I just lurk in these threads, only pipping up occasionally, but where the heck did you get that Bernie hurt Hilary? He busted his ass campaigning for Hilary, and a higher percentage of Bernie voters voted for Clinton than Clinton voters voted for Obama. Bernie not conceding did not dissuade anyone from Hilary, Hilary lost because she was a deeply flawed candidate, and that is coming from someone who thought that she was easily one of the best qualified candidates ever to run for president.

 

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

It is particularly delicious that he built a career running as an outsider to Democratic institutions, then whined about being treated as an outsider to Democratic institutions when he ran for president.  That's one of the many many reasons Bernie Sanders is a piece of shit, as you detailed.  He belongs on Bill Maher barely-coherently berating Republicans.  Not as a legitimate POTUS candidate.

That is such a bullshit answer. Bernie ran in 2016 because he wanted to force a conversation, and why the fuck would you run as a third party in this system. Sanders has virtually always voted with the Dems, he caucuses with the Dems, and he embodies a left wing policy position better than trash like Joe Biden, who is a bought and paid for by the credit card industry, opposed busing, and has generally been a vile person. You're going to put more stock in party loyalty than actual policies? Literally anyone who is ideologically aligned should be able to run in either party's primary and receive the exact same support form the national party, Bernie wasn't robbed, Hilary was always going to be the nominee, but the party leadership should not be putting their thumbs on the scales for one candidate.

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1 minute ago, GrimTuesday said:

That is such a bullshit answer. Bernie ran in 2016 because he wanted to force a conversation, and why the fuck would you run as a third party in this system. Sanders has virtually always voted with the Dems, he caucuses with the Dems, and he embodies a left wing policy position better than trash like Joe Biden

Um, first, I don't know how it's an answer.  Second, yes, Bernie ran to keep Clinton honest in 2016, I was fine with that.  Third, that Bernie virtually "always votes" for the Dems is more of a demonstration that his "outsider" status was more of a gimmick that benefited him politically.  He used it to engender support from the left/far left just like Nader did before him.  But at least Nader wasn't a sitting member of Congress.  Fourth, of course he embodies a left wing agenda that is vastly different than Biden's.  I don't think Biden has a policy agenda beyond "Biden Rules!"

Bernie's agenda, though?  Might as well drive that into the water as well for all it's worth.

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10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Just watched Harris on MSNBC.  I am biased, but yeah I don't care, Harris won.  She went through the entire interview and said almost exactly what I'd want her to say if I was an advisor (she kinda stumbled on the foreign policy/Iran question, but that's it).  Hopefully she gets some run from this.

She dunked from the free throw line in the Biden exchange. Buttidgedge worked the baseline really well but it was the Kamala Harris show tonight.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Um, first, I don't know how it's an answer.  Second, yes, Bernie ran to keep Clinton honest in 2016, I was fine with that.  Third, that Bernie virtually "always votes" for the Dems is more of a demonstration that his "outsider" status was more of a gimmick that benefited him politically.  He used it to engender support from the left/far left just like Nader did before him.  But at least Nader wasn't a sitting member of Congress.  Fourth, of course he embodies a left wing agenda that is vastly different than Biden's.  I don't think Biden has a policy agenda beyond "Biden Rules!"

Bernie's agenda, though?  Might as well drive that into the water as well for all it's worth.

So your argument is Bernie is bad because he never ran with a D next to his name? What a trash take, I hope you enjoy watching all your precious D's sprinting as quickly as they can to align themselves with Bernie.

As for his agenda, do you really think anyone has any chance of passing anything through a Republican held Senate? It's all about moving the Overton Window to the left so we can actually start having these debates in the future, because most other places in the western world, Bernie's policies are the norm.

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