The problem with Bran being king narrative wise

[Darryk]

On 9/18/2019 at 6:30 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

They do in desperate times when there is no one else to inherit.

Even in the story, it is said that the Estermonts (next of kin to the Baratheons, regardless of their marital ties) are the legal heirs to the Baratheon dynasty should something happen to Myrcella and Tommen.

Catelyn also brings up the fact that the Starks have family in the Vale (by blood and by marriage) and that Robb is well within his rights to make them his heirs.

 

I'm not saying it's unlikely that either Jon or a Great Council could decide to make Bran heir, with him being Jon's next male relative being a possible factor in their reasoning; just that Bran would not automatically be next in the line of succession if Jon died or abdicated.

[BlackLightning]

On 9/21/2019 at 8:31 AM, Darryk said:

I'm not saying it's unlikely that either Jon or a Great Council could decide to make Bran heir, with him being Jon's next male relative being a possible factor in their reasoning; just that Bran would not automatically be next in the line of succession if Jon died or abdicated.

Who would be the other choices?

Sansa, Arya and Rickon. Outside of Bran, they will be Jon's last remaining blood relatives. And Rickon is unlikely to survive long enough to participate in this Great Council meeting.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:32 PM, Mystical said:

I agree. I've always thought the story should end with the end of magic. Magic has done as much if not more damage than humans in the world of aSoIaF. And often people did that damage in service of magic (see: prophecies).

Fully agreed. Important to the conflict, yes. But as a King of all the Kingdoms? Nope. I really find it hard to reconcile that 'King Bran' came from GRRM because everything in the world he created is stacked against Bran becoming King.

I think that's the point of the wars and the Others. It's all to push Westeros to a point where they elect Bran to the kingship after all the wars. Bran the Broken repairs a broken continent.

On 8/25/2019 at 1:23 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM seems to favor the idea of a bookish philosopher king rather than a militant conqueror. This fits Sam, Sansa, Tyrion, and Bran who love stories, histories, and myths. So these characters rising would be a f-you to the jockish warlords who see books and think they're for burning.

Yep. It's the philosopher king that rules at the end.

Robb, Dany, Stannis, Renly etc. all get fucked up.

On 8/21/2019 at 8:44 AM, Dreadscythe95 said:

Bran being King is the worst idea ever. It's like the worst dictator in history, Bran is not a character that is written to make it out alive in the story, let alone become King. He is not truly human anymore, he can't rule humans, his views and needs are completely different.

Imo, Bran will become the Night King with the guidance of the Three Eye Raven and destroy the Wall. If he somehow remains good, he will be something like a guide that will help humans defeat the White Walkers with some crucial info but he won't survive the Long Night. Still I feel that Sam will play the role of carrying crucial info from the Citadel, that's why Euron wants tro destroy Oldtown. Martin will probably use Bran to show us events from the past and then when he transforms into The Night King we will know how he has all this knowledge about his enemy (John Snow aka Azor Ahai). Daenerys is his wife, whom he will kill to end The Long Night. fAegon arc will have already ended by a Dance of Dragons with Daenerys, transforming her from a hero to an anti-hero/villain. Imo the only thing that seems true to the show is that John Snow will never be King of Westeros and that Arya will leave (also Brienne probably commander of the King's guard). The rest are nonsense imo. The Wall won;t exist after the end of the story bringing the end of an era of discrimination and war. Sansa will probably be Queen of Westeros. Cersei will never reach that far as a main villain. 

Benioff and Weiss have confirmed that it was always going to be King Bran. Isaac has twice confirmed now that King Bran comes from GRRM.

Also King Bran isn't written to be a dictator. He's written to be Daenerys' opposite who is written to be a tyrant by the endgame.

Both of them are bestowed great power but where Daenerys and Bran differ is that Daenerys gives in and chooses to unleash dragons on the people whereas Bran doesn't try to use his powers against people anymore after Hodor.

Think of Bran as ore guide than king to Westeros who rules via the wisdom bestowed upon him by the Children of the Forest.

[Mystical]

On 9/28/2019 at 9:23 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I think that's the point of the wars and the Others. It's all to push Westeros to a point where they elect Bran to the kingship after all the wars. Bran the Broken repairs a broken continent.

I'm trying to imagine myself in a post-apocalyptic Westeros , whether highborn or lowborn survivor, and Bran as King doesn't fit for me. He's the square keg that doesn't fit in a round hole. If it's going to be a Stark in power, Bran wouldn't even enter my mind (even if he's vital to defeating the Others) as a candidate. The only ones I can imagine would be either Jon or Sansa or preferably both.

You are going to need someone with administrative skills, there is no way around that. Preferably also already practiced so the experience is there. This was/is an integral part of both Sansa's and Jon's story.

You are also going to need a people person (like Sansa), not someone like Bran who likes it in the dark where no one can see him and who hasn't been among civilization in years. Jon is not as much of a people person as Sansa and his approach is more militaristic but he gets some of the disadvantages of the system (being a bastard) and the need to band together.

Most of the survivors will be from the South due to the threat coming from the very North and religious believes won't go away just because of an apocalypse. Sansa had the advantage of being raised with both religions. Bran got his powers from the Old Gods, he would be someone feared even if he saved Westeros. That's how religion works. Sansa is also the one who traveled the most across the continent and who was educated specifically with the South in mind and has been in the South for the entire story.

You will also need a mobile leader. Someone who can travel without problems to show up places where things are being rebuild if for no other reason than a morale boost. Bran isn't exactly mobile and much travel would be difficult if not downright impossible.

Sansa and Jon are also both older than Bran, he is too young in the current story, especially since I don't think there will be a giant time skip coming. Bran, due to his knowledge, would make sense as an advisor but not a leader or even King. Knowing history is nice and all but that doesn't make you a suitable leader/king if you have no experience to make use of it in terms of governing. Knowledge is useless unless you can put it into practise. And having knowledge is not all that's needed to qualify for leader/king or being voted for.

You are also going to need someone with military experience/prowess like Jon because once Westeros is decimated, it will be ripe for the pickings. Once the news of destruction reaches Essos for example, be prepared for armies coming over to stake their claim.

Again I view it terms of the world GRRM created and how I would view the situation as a highborn/lowborn in a post-apocalyptic Westeros. And philosopher King, if that's even how Bran can be viewed since it's only memories/history given to him instead of something learned/experienced/trained/practised, doesn't seem suitable.

[Darryk]

I watched the live action Lion King remake recently and I was wondering, since the original came out around the same time as GRRM was writing GoT, whether it influenced his story in any way. There are some similar prominent themes, like the idea of the rightful king's return, except obviously GRRM subverts them.

Like, I could imagine GRRM watching Lion King and thinking "Why would Simba leave his hakuna matata life to become king just because someone tells him it's his destiny? The hakuna matata life was awesome, whereas being king will be really stressful and probably result in misery", so he decided to write a story where the "rightful king" chooses the carefree hakuna matata life over kingship in the end (Jon going north of the wall to join his buddies).

[SeanF]

The real problem with Bran being king is that the country will now be governed by a rotten oligarchy, who think of the Smallfolk as livestock, and believe that new brothels are a priority.  One weird teenager, who spends his life in the past, isn't going to alter that.

Westeros went backwards politically.

[SeanF]

On 9/30/2019 at 2:39 PM, Mystical said:

I'm trying to imagine myself in a post-apocalyptic Westeros , whether highborn or lowborn survivor, and Bran as King doesn't fit for me. He's the square keg that doesn't fit in a round hole. If it's going to be a Stark in power, Bran wouldn't even enter my mind (even if he's vital to defeating the Others) as a candidate. The only ones I can imagine would be either Jon or Sansa or preferably both.

You are going to need someone with administrative skills, there is no way around that. Preferably also already practiced so the experience is there. This was/is an integral part of both Sansa's and Jon's story.

You are also going to need a people person (like Sansa), not someone like Bran who likes it in the dark where no one can see him and who hasn't been among civilization in years. Jon is not as much of a people person as Sansa and his approach is more militaristic but he gets some of the disadvantages of the system (being a bastard) and the need to band together.

Most of the survivors will be from the South due to the threat coming from the very North and religious believes won't go away just because of an apocalypse. Sansa had the advantage of being raised with both religions. Bran got his powers from the Old Gods, he would be someone feared even if he saved Westeros. That's how religion works. Sansa is also the one who traveled the most across the continent and who was educated specifically with the South in mind and has been in the South for the entire story.

You will also need a mobile leader. Someone who can travel without problems to show up places where things are being rebuild if for no other reason than a morale boost. Bran isn't exactly mobile and much travel would be difficult if not downright impossible.

Sansa and Jon are also both older than Bran, he is too young in the current story, especially since I don't think there will be a giant time skip coming. Bran, due to his knowledge, would make sense as an advisor but not a leader or even King. Knowing history is nice and all but that doesn't make you a suitable leader/king if you have no experience to make use of it in terms of governing. Knowledge is useless unless you can put it into practise. And having knowledge is not all that's needed to qualify for leader/king or being voted for.

You are also going to need someone with military experience/prowess like Jon because once Westeros is decimated, it will be ripe for the pickings. Once the news of destruction reaches Essos for example, be prepared for armies coming over to stake their claim.

Again I view it terms of the world GRRM created and how I would view the situation as a highborn/lowborn in a post-apocalyptic Westeros. And philosopher King, if that's even how Bran can be viewed since it's only memories/history given to him instead of something learned/experienced/trained/practised, doesn't seem suitable.

Bran has none of the qualifications for kingship in a medieval society.  He can't fight, he's completely without personality, he has no experience governing, he cannot interact with his subjects, and he's very weird.

[Mystical]

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Bran has none of the qualifications for kingship in a medieval society.  He can't fight, he's completely without personality, he has no experience governing, he cannot interact with his subjects, and he's very weird.

We don't know how Bran's personality will be at the end of GRRM's story. But his personality is literally the least important problem that Martin would have to deal with by making Bran king. He'd have to disregard religious believes, the reality of an apocalypse and how people act in the aftermath, his age and so much more.

D&D's version doesn't tell me anything about how Martin would do it. Their fanfic is useless since they ended the story exactly how it began with an uninterested King who doesn't care about the people. Actually it's worse since we don't know what 3ER's (it's not Bran anymore in their fanfic) motives are. And Westeros is now a surveillance state and 3ER is Skynet. And we all know how that story ended.

[Angel Eyes]

On 10/21/2019 at 3:25 PM, Darryk said:

I watched the live action Lion King remake recently and I was wondering, since the original came out around the same time as GRRM was writing GoT, whether it influenced his story in any way. There are some similar prominent themes, like the idea of the rightful king's return, except obviously GRRM subverts them.

Like, I could imagine GRRM watching Lion King and thinking "Why would Simba leave his hakuna matata life to become king just because someone tells him it's his destiny? The hakuna matata life was awesome, whereas being king will be really stressful and probably result in misery", so he decided to write a story where the "rightful king" chooses the carefree hakuna matata life over kingship in the end (Jon going north of the wall to join his buddies).

I dunno, the interpetation of Hakuna Matata in the 2019 film tends more towards nihilism, in the sense that "nothing matters except doing what you want".

[sweetsunray]

On 8/3/2019 at 3:04 PM, divica said:

Well, the first problem is that if I am not mistaken is that bran is supposed to only be able to see what happened in front of weirwood trees right? At least his past visions... 

Actually you are mistaken. Bloodraven makes clear that in time, Bran will be able to see beyond the weirwood tree. They're training devices. So, an initiate can see things from the past happening before a weirwood, but an acolyte or adept doesn't need the trunk of a weirwood tree anymore.

[sweetsunray]

On 8/3/2019 at 9:19 PM, teej6 said:

 GRRM has to dedicate a lot of words in the next two books to make Bran’s ascent to King plausible and believable to his readers. Or else, he’ll be going against his own “learning to rule/lead” argument, which would be hypocritical of him.

I'd say Theon is the first test to this. Theon's visits to the Godswoods in aDwD, involve Bran interacting with him, several times. Initially, Theon senses hatred, but eventually Bran extends compassion to him (the tree even carresses him at some point as Theon breaks down), and then BR and Bran are agents as ravens at Stannis's camp, involved in whatever is going to happen to Theon (who begged to die with a sword). We're not witnessing it from Bran's POV, but there Bran is not just making strategic choices, but involved in judging life and death, a justice figure, which is ultimately what any feudal ruler would be doing.

Bran also has experience with the ceremonial role, during his experience with the harvest feast, and issues lords and ladies and peasants petition over. Or more precesily, he has experience with regent-like figures such as Cassel and Luwin advizing on a case of castle distribution (heir of Hornwood) after the standard heir died, and how doing nothing and postponing that decision leads to chaos, but also on the taxing of the harvest, etc. These will be the matters to decide on in the aftermath of the many years of war.

The only other characters we witness having to deal with petitioners, food storages, and who gets to be the future lord/lady over a land so far are Dany, Cersei, Jon and Sansa. Dany does this in Meereen. She finds it tedious, and that's just one city and a culture that isn't remotely like a feudal society, and eventually she's veering to blood and fire. Cersei always makes the selfish greedy short-term choice where she ends up making enemies and rewards useless sycophants. Jon actively tries to anticipate those issues, through getting a loan of the Iron Bank, resettling wildlings on the Gift and the Alys Karstark marriage to the Magnar. But overall he's more like a war-king, approaching these decisions more from a strategic angle in response to his enemies' threats. Could Jon deal with these issues in an adequate way, when there is no existential threat anymore? That is I think he potentially could, but his experience may condition him to deal with these issues from a strategic pov against an existential-threat. In the face of an existential threat, radically innovative ideas are defendable, but even then don't go over well. In times of peace, both Dany's and Jon's penchant for the novel, radical solution has a high chance of backfiring politically. In fact, it already backfired for the both of them. Sansa is starting to get introduced to these issues at the Vale, but Arya mentioned from the get go how Sansa's not good with numbers and Arya wondered how Sansa would ever manage not to run up debts as Joffrey's queen. And while Sansa is talented in organizing events for show and ceremony, the Vale's tourney reveals she does this from a mind-set as if she has a magical coffer at her disposal. In fact, she has LF's embezzled funds and granaries at her disposal to do all that. We still have to see her confronted with limited resources.

Arya is confronted with these issues as well, but almost entirely from the angle of the commoner. She's the Starkish version of Egg. She's supposed to be good with numbers. She also poses the same problems as Egg did: while she would be great in taking the commoners into account foremost, she would overlook the needs of the vassals, and the ceremonial part of it is her Achilles' heel.

Hmmm, sometimes I think a pack would work better: Jon as general, Sansa holding court, Arya watching the coffers, funds and advocate of the commoner, Bran judging petitions.

[Mystical]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Sansa is starting to get introduced to these issues at the Vale, but Arya mentioned from the get go how Sansa's not good with numbers and Arya wondered how Sansa would ever manage not to run up debts as Joffrey's queen. And while Sansa is talented in organizing events for show and ceremony, the Vale's tourney reveals she does this from a mind-set as if she has a magical coffer at her disposal. In fact, she has LF's embezzled funds and granaries at her disposal to do all that. We still have to see her confronted with limited resources.

Arya is confronted with these issues as well, but almost entirely from the angle of the commoner. She's the Starkish version of Egg. She's supposed to be good with numbers. She also poses the same problems as Egg did: while she would be great in taking the commoners into account foremost, she would overlook the needs of the vassals, and the ceremonial part of it is her Achilles' heel.

Hmmm, sometimes I think a pack would work better: Jon as general, Sansa holding court, Arya watching the coffers, funds and advocate of the commoner, Bran judging petitions.

Numbers is something you can get better at. It's not like they do complicated math in Westeros. And worst case I'd imagine that Sansa would have someone trusted (so they don't do a LF on her) to help her with those. But I agree with your assessment of the 'pack' possibly making a perfect unit, balancing out their strengths/weaknesses.

[sweetsunray]

On 11/2/2019 at 10:41 PM, Mystical said:

Numbers is something you can get better at. It's not like they do complicated math in Westeros. And worst case I'd imagine that Sansa would have someone trusted (so they don't do a LF on her) to help her with those. But I agree with your assessment of the 'pack' possibly making a perfect unit, balancing out their strengths/weaknesses.

I teach math, so yes, I agree and tell students all the time that you can get better with numbers with exercise. However, negative numbers is something even math geniuses used to have issues with until the renaissance. Counting is what you need in a hunter gatherer society: all positive numbers without zero. Agricultural societies need ratios, since they will have to "divide" land. Hence, rational numbers were accepted and standard for math since ancient Greece. Negative numbers and zero only come into play once you have a monetery society that gives out loans and includes concepts as being "in debt" (as did India). And it helps you're using numerals as those we use now, rather than Roman numerals. Pythagoras (5th century BC) may have uncovered the law that would lead to the discovery of the square root of the number 2. But in Ancient Greece irrational numbers were blasphemous. They held to the belief that every number could be rewritten as a ratio, and thus believed every number must be a ratio, and of course that's exactly what irrational numbers are not. The idea was so blasphemous to the Greek mathematicians that Pythagoras' followers had to discuss these numbers in secret, for fear of their lives, and it caused a split between algebraic math and geometry until the 19th century. Negative integers and irrational numbers weren't accepted as "actual" number by mathematicians even for over thousand of years. And you expect Sansa to just get better at it?

Arya's comment about Sansa likely having issues with not getting into debt indicates that Sansa has issues with the concept of negative numbers. I have pupils with similar issues. They can wrap their brains around ratios. They can do powers and they can do square roots, but a negative number, euhm nope. Not even the elevator-trick (you get on the 2nd level and go down for 5 levels, so which level are you on when you step out of the elevator) helps. I can ask them (adults): "You are -500 euros in the red on your bank account and you want to get it up to +150 euros. How much money do you need to deposit?" And they'll swear they only need to deposit 350 euros.

I suspect Robert has a similar issue with negative numbers btw.

[BlackLightning]

On 10/21/2019 at 3:25 PM, Darryk said:

I watched the live action Lion King remake recently and I was wondering, since the original came out around the same time as GRRM was writing GoT, whether it influenced his story in any way. There are some similar prominent themes, like the idea of the rightful king's return, except obviously GRRM subverts them.

Like, I could imagine GRRM watching Lion King and thinking "Why would Simba leave his hakuna matata life to become king just because someone tells him it's his destiny? The hakuna matata life was awesome, whereas being king will be really stressful and probably result in misery", so he decided to write a story where the "rightful king" chooses the carefree hakuna matata life over kingship in the end (Jon going north of the wall to join his buddies).

Ew

I don't see Jon surviving the series at all, much less have a happy ending. Killing Daenerys makes Jon both a queenslayer and a kinslayer. Not only am I 100% sure that Daenerys will be Jon's lawfully wedded wife, but (given that the Daenerys pregnancy plot was abandoned at the last minuted) she might even be pregnant with his child.

All in all, it will be a horrific and complicated situation. On par with the Red and Purple Weddings. The Starks can't let Jon off the hook without completing nuking their reputation as the realm's new first family.

On 10/22/2019 at 8:21 AM, SeanF said:

The real problem with Bran being king is that the country will now be governed by a rotten oligarchy, who think of the Smallfolk as livestock, and believe that new brothels are a priority.  One weird teenager, who spends his life in the past, isn't going to alter that.

Westeros went backwards politically.

I think that's a situation that won't happen in the books. GRRM has his flaws but he is not an idiot nor is he a cruel nihilist.

It's yet another reason why the final season sucked.

On 11/2/2019 at 5:41 PM, Mystical said:

Numbers is something you can get better at. It's not like they do complicated math in Westeros. And worst case I'd imagine that Sansa would have someone trusted (so they don't do a LF on her) to help her with those. But I agree with your assessment of the 'pack' possibly making a perfect unit, balancing out their strengths/weaknesses.

The people who design, build and do maintenance on all those monolithic castles and keeps do have to do complicated math. The alchemists and the maesters likely have to do some intensive work. And while accounting seems simple enough, accounting is actually quite difficult. Particularly on large, demanding scales such as running a castle as big as Casterly Rock or Winterfell, much less an entire country the size of South America.

On 11/2/2019 at 7:44 AM, sweetsunray said:

Actually you are mistaken. Bloodraven makes clear that in time, Bran will be able to see beyond the weirwood tree. They're training devices. So, an initiate can see things from the past happening before a weirwood, but an acolyte or adept doesn't need the trunk of a weirwood tree anymore.

Precisely!

Although I do think more weirwoods will pop up in southern Westeros under Bran's reign, there won't be many of them and Bran won't even need weirwoods by the time we get to the final chapters of A Dream of Spring

On 11/5/2019 at 2:20 PM, sweetsunray said:

I teach math, so yes, I agree and tell students all the time that you can get better with numbers with exercise. However, negative numbers is something even math geniuses used to have issues with until the renaissance. Counting is what you need in a hunter-gatherer nomadic society: all positive numbers without zero. Agricultural societies need ratios, since they will have to "divide" land. Hence, rational numbers were accepted and standard for math since ancient Greece. Negative numbers and zero only come into play once you have a monetary society that gives out loans and includes concepts as being "in debt" (as did India). And it helps you're using numerals as those we use now, rather than Roman numerals. Pythagoras (5th century BC) may have uncovered the law that would lead to the discovery of the square root of the number 2. But in Ancient Greece irrational numbers were blasphemous. They held to the belief that every number could be rewritten as a ratio, and thus believed every number must be a ratio, and of course that's exactly what irrational numbers are not. The idea was so blasphemous to the Greek mathematicians that Pythagoras' followers had to discuss these numbers in secret, for fear of their lives, and it caused a split between algebraic math and geometry until the 19th century. Negative integers and irrational numbers weren't accepted as "actual" number by mathematicians even for over thousand of years. And you expect Sansa to just get better at it?

Arya's comment about Sansa likely having issues with not getting into debt indicates that Sansa has issues with the concept of negative numbers. I have pupils with similar issues. They can wrap their brains around ratios. They can do powers and they can do square roots, but a negative number, euhm nope. Not even the elevator-trick (you get on the 2nd level and go down for 5 levels, so which level are you on when you step out of the elevator) helps. I can ask them (adults): "You are -500 euros in the red on your bank account and you want to get it up to +150 euros. How much money do you need to deposit?" And they'll swear they only need to deposit 350 euros.

I suspect Robert has a similar issue with negative numbers btw.

So that's why my 11th grade Algebra II teacher told me geometry isn't really math. She never really (adequately) explained why but there it goes.

I wish I had you as a math teacher at some point. The history and purpose of math makes the actual number-crunching math make more sense.

Although I never ever personally struggled with the concept of negative, irrational or even imaginary numbers, maybe Sansa had math teachers similar to mine (who did nothing to help). Maybe Sansa being the history buff she is needed a math teacher like you.

This is really off-topic but weren't the Egyptians the first to discover and utilize "0" without going even further into the realm of negative numbers?

On 11/2/2019 at 9:40 AM, sweetsunray said:

I'd say Theon is the first test to this. Theon's visits to the Godswoods in aDwD, involve Bran interacting with him, several times. Initially, Theon senses hatred, but eventually Bran extends compassion to him (the tree even carresses him at some point as Theon breaks down), and then BR and Bran are agents as ravens at Stannis's camp, involved in whatever is going to happen to Theon (who begged to die with a sword). We're not witnessing it from Bran's POV, but there Bran is not just making strategic choices, but involved in judging life and death, a justice figure, which is ultimately what any feudal ruler would be doing.

Bran also has experience with the ceremonial role, during his experience with the harvest feast, and issues lords and ladies and peasants petition over. Or more precesily, he has experience with regent-like figures such as Cassel and Luwin advizing on a case of castle distribution (heir of Hornwood) after the standard heir died, and how doing nothing and postponing that decision leads to chaos, but also on the taxing of the harvest, etc. These will be the matters to decide on in the aftermath of the many years of war.

The only other characters we witness having to deal with petitioners, food storages, and who gets to be the future lord/lady over a land so far are Dany, Cersei, Jon and Sansa. Dany does this in Meereen. She finds it tedious, and that's just one city and a culture that isn't remotely like a feudal society, and eventually she's veering to blood and fire. Cersei always makes the selfish greedy short-term choice where she ends up making enemies and rewards useless sycophants. Jon actively tries to anticipate those issues, through getting a loan of the Iron Bank, resettling wildlings on the Gift and the Alys Karstark marriage to the Magnar. But overall he's more like a war-king, approaching these decisions more from a strategic angle in response to his enemies' threats. Could Jon deal with these issues in an adequate way, when there is no existential threat anymore? That is I think he potentially could, but his experience may condition him to deal with these issues from a strategic pov against an existential-threat. In the face of an existential threat, radically innovative ideas are defendable, but even then don't go over well. In times of peace, both Dany's and Jon's penchant for the novel, radical solution has a high chance of backfiring politically. In fact, it already backfired for the both of them. Sansa is starting to get introduced to these issues at the Vale, but Arya mentioned from the get go how Sansa's not good with numbers and Arya wondered how Sansa would ever manage not to run up debts as Joffrey's queen. And while Sansa is talented in organizing events for show and ceremony, the Vale's tourney reveals she does this from a mind-set as if she has a magical coffer at her disposal. In fact, she has LF's embezzled funds and granaries at her disposal to do all that. We still have to see her confronted with limited resources.

Arya is confronted with these issues as well, but almost entirely from the angle of the commoner. She's the Starkish version of Egg. She's supposed to be good with numbers. She also poses the same problems as Egg did: while she would be great in taking the commoners into account foremost, she would overlook the needs of the vassals, and the ceremonial part of it is her Achilles' heel.

Hmmm, sometimes I think a pack would work better: Jon as general, Sansa holding court, Arya watching the coffers, funds and advocate of the commoner, Bran judging petitions.

Here is where I disagree. I think Arya would make for a better chief law enforcer, chief of public relations, head of intelligence than a master of coin. Arya is good with numbers but her passion and talent lies with the smallfolk, espionage and fighting for justice.

I definitely don't see Arya just leaving Westeros for parts unknown willy-nilly in any case.

Jon is not going to be part of King Bran's government. Even if Jon is spared (a big if), Bran can't afford such a gross miscarriage of justice to become a political liability. He'll have to be cast out.

Sansa is going to really struggle though. I think she, as the resident Lady of Winterfell in A Dream of Spring, is going to have to manage extremely finite finances and resources in a very difficult situation.

Jon and Dany definitely have what it takes to be good rulers and governors. It's just that they have major personality ticks and political flaws that I don't think they will live long enough to correct.

On 9/30/2019 at 9:39 AM, Mystical said:

I'm trying to imagine myself in a post-apocalyptic Westeros , whether highborn or lowborn survivor, and Bran as King doesn't fit for me. He's the square keg that doesn't fit in a round hole. If it's going to be a Stark in power, Bran wouldn't even enter my mind (even if he's vital to defeating the Others) as a candidate. The only ones I can imagine would be either Jon or Sansa or preferably both.

You are going to need someone with administrative skills, there is no way around that. Preferably also already practiced so the experience is there. This was/is an integral part of both Sansa's and Jon's story.

You are also going to need a people person (like Sansa), not someone like Bran who likes it in the dark where no one can see him and who hasn't been among civilization in years. Jon is not as much of a people person as Sansa and his approach is more militaristic but he gets some of the disadvantages of the system (being a bastard) and the need to band together.

Most of the survivors will be from the South due to the threat coming from the very North and religious believes won't go away just because of an apocalypse. Sansa had the advantage of being raised with both religions. Bran got his powers from the Old Gods, he would be someone feared even if he saved Westeros. That's how religion works. Sansa is also the one who traveled the most across the continent and who was educated specifically with the South in mind and has been in the South for the entire story.

You will also need a mobile leader. Someone who can travel without problems to show up places where things are being rebuild if for no other reason than a morale boost. Bran isn't exactly mobile and much travel would be difficult if not downright impossible.

Sansa and Jon are also both older than Bran, he is too young in the current story, especially since I don't think there will be a giant time skip coming. Bran, due to his knowledge, would make sense as an advisor but not a leader or even King. Knowing history is nice and all but that doesn't make you a suitable leader/king if you have no experience to make use of it in terms of governing. Knowledge is useless unless you can put it into practise. And having knowledge is not all that's needed to qualify for leader/king or being voted for.

You are also going to need someone with military experience/prowess like Jon because once Westeros is decimated, it will be ripe for the pickings. Once the news of destruction reaches Essos for example, be prepared for armies coming over to stake their claim.

Again I view it terms of the world GRRM created and how I would view the situation as a highborn/lowborn in a post-apocalyptic Westeros. And philosopher King, if that's even how Bran can be viewed since it's only memories/history given to him instead of something learned/experienced/trained/practised, doesn't seem suitable.

I think you are underestimating exactly how desperate and superstitious/magic-worshiping post-apocalyptic Westeros. By the end of it all, Westeros will have endured:

• the Others and their monstrous, zombie minions
• the Greyjoy family (the worst of them being Euron) and god knows what Patchface saw under the sea
• Daenerys Targaryen, her dragons and her foreign armies
• Religious war (the red priests vs. the Faith Militant) with maybe the CotF and the followers of the old gods getting involved
• Varys and his scheming...which is obviously pro-Blackfyre
• Littlefinger and his schemes (Lysa Arryn being Littlefinger's plus-one)
• Tywin Lannister and the never-ending fuck-ups of his darling children
• years of nonstop civil war and unrest
• greyscale epidemic
• "regular" wintertime diseases
• Lady Stoneheart and Nymeria, the She-Beasts of the Riverlands
• extreme famine
• the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding and similar events
• a scandalous chain of events that results in the king (Jon) murdering his wife and queen (Daenerys) in their own home over some stupid misunderstanding

And on top of that, winter has only just started. And there are no signs of it coming to an end anytime soon.

The sentiments of many - lowborn and highborn alike - would be "Bitch I'm tired!"

Just choose someone young and strong with a good name. Magical powers to defend us is a huge plus. Anyone will do. I don't care. I just want to be able to live a life as misery-free as winter will allow it without having to worry about dying of greyscale, being raped by the Ironborn, being burnt by dragons, being eaten by zombies or being enslaved by walking icicles with an attitude problem.

[GameofThrones Fan 1994]

In S8 E6 Behind the Scene interviews.

David: Around Season 3 we went to visit George R. R. Martin. And he writes, and he kind of figures things out as he's writing. When we went to visit him back then, and this is while he was still writing book five, ( note: should be "book 6") he didn't know yet where the story was going, and he knew a few key things, and one of those key things was that the final king at the end of the story would be Bran.

[GameofThrones Fan 1994]

Bran has less chapters than other characters so it's going to be a challenge for GRRM to make King Bran work.

[BlackLightning]

13 hours ago, GameofThrones Fan 1994 said:

Bran has less chapters than other characters so it's going to be a challenge for GRRM to make King Bran work.

That's because GRRM is disorganized.

Honestly, the first two Bran chapters from A Dance with Dragons should have been in A Storm of Swords.

He has a lot of work ahead of him where Bran is concerned. Bran is going to need close to 10 chapters come A Dream of Spring