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The problem with Bran being king narrative wise

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On 8/19/2019 at 11:02 AM, Mystical said:

It's such a simple concept that you would think it wouldn't need to be said. But apparently it does.

Even then I can't see it. Because lets say that in the books the Others make it past The North, everyone still alive flees south and then they devastate everything there as well before they are stopped. The status in the books is that a lot of Kingdoms are currently having their own problems of power. The War of the 5 Kings had previously ravaged several Kingdoms. You have Targ 1 invading, probably soon to be followed by Targ 2. Most of the continent will be depleted in both manpower and food once all these conflicts/wars/invasions and a mythical ice threat are over.

After all that why in God's name would people chose to follow a crippled 12 year old who has no experience in governing? Sure Bran did a few weeks (with advisors) while Robb went to war but what people will know about that time is that the Ironborn invaded and won while he was 'ruling'. After so much devastation people will want someone who is a people person who can inspire them to rally around, Bran spend the last few years with a handful of people away from society. And lets not forget that he is freaking 12 years old, people would want an adult to shoulder so much responsibility. And even if Bran was instrumental in defeating the Others with his magical abilities, this is still a continent full of religious people. Most of them would be fearful of Bran because he got his powers from the Old Gods. Other than The North, the rest of the continent worships the Faith of the 7 who would see any other religion as evil. I just can't see any believable way in the books for Bran to be King of the entire continent.

And if GRRM still forces this endgame somehow, what does that say about the moral of his story? In the end there is still only one King, the same as in the beginning of the story. That humans are too corrupt, immoral, imperfect, selfish and stupid to be allowed to rule? They need a literal God (with all the knowledge from thousands of years of previous governments) to preside over them to show them how to do it right. That's downright infantilizing.

Exactly. Hence the amount of onlyifs and eventhens in the whole post. The world would be upside down and sideways to the point where the only lesson would be, again, beware of following people or a person of proven power or even a ceeed or system on the basis of 'it's our only way out, all hail our savior' mob mentality. 

There's something sketchy about the CotF and the whole ThreeEyedRaven concept. That's way too much power set upon one entity.

The other idiot was running around straddling a damn nuke, people bowing and scraping at her feet and she went coocoo ffs.

As you say, so rightly? A twelve year old crippled boy, with all his dreams crushed in one traumatic event? Knowing everything or thereabouts? Not scary. Like, at all.

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2 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

There's something sketchy about the CotF and the whole ThreeEyedRaven concept. That's way too much power set upon one entity.

As you say, so rightly? A twelve year old crippled boy, with all his dreams crushed in one traumatic event? Knowing everything or thereabouts? Not scary. Like, at all.

Is there actually anyone who doesn't think there is something sketchy about the CotF or the 3EC? Do those readers really exist? I mean the whole thing starts with a boy in a coma being visited by a bird that forces him into a life or death situation by scaring the hell out of him, luring him with power and getting him to make a dangerous journey into dangerous territory. Bran creepily dream visits Jon while in Ghost and Ghost doesn't like what he sees/smells just like Summer doesn't like what Jojen is saying. Take a hint Bran. And that is just the beginning of the story. Along the way there are so many signs and lots is still not explained to us as readers about the CotF/3EC/Weirwoods.

And lets not forget that said 12 year old boy is already sketchy enough himself before he becomes the new host to the 3EC or being absorbed into the weirwood.net. He likes the dark because no one can see him (but he can see them) which to me alludes to a shadow player who pulls strings without you knowing it. He doesn't just warg Hodor because has to in order for them to live, he does it for shits and giggles. Doesn't he also try to warg Meera? This ability would probably be amplified if he ever got more powerful which would probably go hand in hand with the loss of morals, whether due to being absorbed into a hive-mind or being taken over by Bloodraven. And that's quite frankly the only way that I can see 'Bran' becoming King. By warging people. Maybe he can get so powerful that he can warg an entire group of people.

But how would that be a positive thing to end the books on? So the 12 year old god-boy conquering the world by robbing everyone of their free will? Because frankly I can't see any other way for Bran to 'win the throne' since no one with free will would choose him.

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21 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Is there actually anyone who doesn't think there is something sketchy about the CotF or the 3EC? Do those readers really exist? I mean the whole thing starts with a boy in a coma being visited by a bird that forces him into a life or death situation by scaring the hell out of him, luring him with power and getting him to make a dangerous journey into dangerous territory. Bran creepily dream visits Jon while in Ghost and Ghost doesn't like what he sees/smells just like Summer doesn't like what Jojen is saying. Take a hint Bran. And that is just the beginning of the story. Along the way there are so many signs and lots is still not explained to us as readers about the CotF/3EC/Weirwoods.

And lets not forget that said 12 year old boy is already sketchy enough himself before he becomes the new host to the 3EC or being absorbed into the weirwood.net. He likes the dark because no one can see him (but he can see them) which to me alludes to a shadow player who pulls strings without you knowing it. He doesn't just warg Hodor because has to in order for them to live, he does it for shits and giggles. Doesn't he also try to warg Meera? This ability would probably be amplified if he ever got more powerful which would probably go hand in hand with the loss of morals, whether due to being absorbed into a hive-mind or being taken over by Bloodraven. And that's quite frankly the only way that I can see 'Bran' becoming King. By warging people. Maybe he can get so powerful that he can warg an entire group of people.

But how would that be a positive thing to end the books on? So the 12 year old god-boy conquering the world by robbing everyone of their free will? Because frankly I can't see any other way for Bran to 'win the throne' since no one with free will would choose him.

So no. Bran might become the leader of what little remains of magic in Westeros, much like the King of Greenwood remains a king, but in Middle Earth Elves no longer matter to the grander scheme of things as in Westeros magic must fade to end the enduring Medieval Age that has lasted since the last Long Night, but he will not be King of the Six Kingdoms or whatever that idiocy was.

I truly believe Bran will be important in the conflict ahead, but a King? King of the However Many Kingdoms and elected to be so as much as a Targaryen in all but name? Nah.

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3 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

So no. Bran might become the leader of what little remains of magic in Westeros, much like the King of Greenwood remains a king, but in Middle Earth Elves no longer matter to the grander scheme of things as in Westeros magic must fade to end the enduring Medieval Age that has lasted since the last Long Night, but he will not be King of the Six Kingdoms or whatever that idiocy was.

I agree. I've always thought the story should end with the end of magic. Magic has done as much if not more damage than humans in the world of aSoIaF. And often people did that damage in service of magic (see: prophecies).

5 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I truly believe Bran will be important in the conflict ahead, but a King? King of the However Many Kingdoms and elected to be so as much as a Targaryen in all but name? Nah.

Fully agreed. Important to the conflict, yes. But as a King of all the Kingdoms? Nope. I really find it hard to reconcile that 'King Bran' came from GRRM because everything in the world he created is stacked against Bran becoming King.

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3 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I agree. I've always thought the story should end with the end of magic. Magic has done as much if not more damage than humans in the world of aSoIaF. And often people did that damage in service of magic (see: prophecies).

Fully agreed. Important to the conflict, yes. But as a King of all the Kingdoms? Nope. I really find it hard to reconcile that 'King Bran' came from GRRM because everything in the world he created is stacked against Bran becoming King.

Thank you.

And it would tie in, personally, to a very 'fantasy fan' view on the bittersweet ending soundbyte from GRRM. World saved, world diminished, but world saved.

Bran as a 'reigning' figure, probably on the Isle of Faces?, hidden and eventually forgotten, I can take. It would plainly show the slightest bit of slowly fading magic, loosing importance until it's irrelevant.

And yes, prophecy and magic have caused so much harm and death it nearly overshadows what has been brought about by pure human greed and stupidity.

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16 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

And it would tie in, personally, to a very 'fantasy fan' view on the bittersweet ending soundbyte from GRRM. World saved, world diminished, but world saved.

If GRRM doesn't want to go the route of God-King presiding over humans (which would make me burn the books) then he should make the invasion of the Others a truly apocalyptic event. Currently no region would be prepared for it, everyone is dealing with wars, invasions and power struggles. If the Others were to make it into Westeros now, most of the continent would be screwed. The only way to effect change would not be via some all-knowing God presiding over all but to shake up the status quo by almost complete annihilation. What better way to make people question the entire system that the continent operates on? Sadly humans seem to need such extremes to be shaken out of their stupidity.

It would close the gap between highborn and common folk because while most highborn people know administrative work and how to swing a sword, the common folk are the workers. They farm, hunt, fish, get wood/stone etc.. They are literally the most important for the survival of whoever is left standing. Which gives them more power. Just like it would hopefully teach the highborn a lesson on their petty obsessions and power struggles being a complete waste of time because it's their job to protect their people and they failed by being focused only on their own crap. Succession, patriarchy, inheritance and civil or realm wide wars because of those made are all pointless because it achieves nothing. It just keeps the same old cycle going.

That plus magic going bye bye would be a good end. But simply putting some godly all-knowing kid at the top changes nothing. The system stays in place because no one was really shaken out of their stupor.

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Posted (edited)

Bran being King is the worst idea ever. It's like the worst dictator in history, Bran is not a character that is written to make it out alive in the story, let alone become King. He is not truly human anymore, he can't rule humans, his views and needs are completely different.

Imo, Bran will become the Night King with the guidance of the Three Eye Raven and destroy the Wall. If he somehow remains good, he will be something like a guide that will help humans defeat the White Walkers with some crucial info but he won't survive the Long Night. Still I feel that Sam will play the role of carrying crucial info from the Citadel, that's why Euron wants tro destroy Oldtown. Martin will probably use Bran to show us events from the past and then when he transforms into The Night King we will know how he has all this knowledge about his enemy (John Snow aka Azor Ahai). Daenerys is his wife, whom he will kill to end The Long Night. fAegon arc will have already ended by a Dance of Dragons with Daenerys, transforming her from a hero to an anti-hero/villain. Imo the only thing that seems true to the show is that John Snow will never be King of Westeros and that Arya will leave (also Brienne probably commander of the King's guard). The rest are nonsense imo. The Wall won;t exist after the end of the story bringing the end of an era of discrimination and war. Sansa will probably be Queen of Westeros. Cersei will never reach that far as a main villain. 

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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3 hours ago, Mystical said:

If GRRM doesn't want to go the route of God-King presiding over humans (which would make me burn the books) then he should make the invasion of the Others a truly apocalyptic event. Currently no region would be prepared for it, everyone is dealing with wars, invasions and power struggles. If the Others were to make it into Westeros now, most of the continent would be screwed. The only way to effect change would not be via some all-knowing God presiding over all but to shake up the status quo by almost complete annihilation. What better way to make people question the entire system that the continent operates on? Sadly humans seem to need such extremes to be shaken out of their stupidity.

It would close the gap between highborn and common folk because while most highborn people know administrative work and how to swing a sword, the common folk are the workers. They farm, hunt, fish, get wood/stone etc.. They are literally the most important for the survival of whoever is left standing. Which gives them more power. Just like it would hopefully teach the highborn a lesson on their petty obsessions and power struggles being a complete waste of time because it's their job to protect their people and they failed by being focused only on their own crap. Succession, patriarchy, inheritance and civil or realm wide wars because of those made are all pointless because it achieves nothing. It just keeps the same old cycle going.

That plus magic going bye bye would be a good end. But simply putting some godly all-knowing kid at the top changes nothing. The system stays in place because no one was really shaken out of their stupor.

Exactly. The system works for the ruling class. So something has to give. Badly. 

If the level of destruction caused by the Winter to come could, say, be on par or above the devastation of the plague? That was a key moment to force RL feudalism to end. Peasants became important because they were so few and feudal lords depended on their work force to maintain their property and wealth.

Some superduper MagicTM boywonder being made King would simply butcher the chance to finally end the Dark Ages Westeros has stagnated into.

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21 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Exactly. The system works for the ruling class. So something has to give. Badly. 

If the level of destruction caused by the Winter to come could, say, be on par or above the devastation of the plague? That was a key moment to force RL feudalism to end. Peasants became important because they were so few and feudal lords depended on their work force to maintain their property and wealth.

Some superduper MagicTM boywonder being made King would simply butcher the chance to finally end the Dark Ages Westeros has stagnated into.

If GRRM was truthful about the Others being an allegory for climate change, then the real world parallel fits his story and what he should do in the books. Our politicians and corporate industries (highborns) are only concerned with keeping themselves in power and getting richer, fighting wars and depleting resources. The people and workers (common folk) are the ones who work their asses off for minimal pay, fewer rights and being in the line of fire. The fear about climate change is a sudden, big, natural disaster that will change huge parts of our world (be it flood, a new Ice Age). And then politics and power won't matter in the slightest when you struggle for survival, no matter your social status.

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7 minutes ago, Mystical said:

If GRRM was truthful about the Others being an allegory for climate change, then the real world parallel fits his story and what he should do in the books. Our politicians and corporate industries (highborns) are only concerned with keeping themselves in power and getting richer, fighting wars and depleting resources. The people and workers (common folk) are the ones who work their asses off for minimal pay, fewer rights and being in the line of fire. The fear about climate change is a sudden, big, natural disaster that will change huge parts of our world (be it flood, a new Ice Age). And then politics and power won't matter in the slightest when you struggle for survival, no matter your social status.

And the thing about the world changing but staying the same is so terribly on point, isn't it? GRRM gives us an allegory inside a metaphor dressed up as fantasy, but the social critique is as valid now as it was when the stories had just started being written. Maybe more even.

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On 8/19/2019 at 6:02 AM, Mystical said:

It's such a simple concept that you would think it wouldn't need to be said. But apparently it does.

Exactly!

It's just absolutely crazy that people continue to defend this. D&D literally had 8 seasons (i.e. all the time in the world) to do this.

On 8/19/2019 at 3:12 PM, Crona said:

just wondering, do we know when GRRM told them it was Bran? Was it the beginning or during season 5?

When season 3 was in post-production. Late 2012, early 2013...

On 8/18/2019 at 4:03 PM, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

If Winter happened as promised: a HELE with bold letters the likes of a Terminator style nuclear winter with add-on DayAfterTomorrow speed of onset?

I would accept a 'council of surviving characters' situation, with the honestly few people left alive deferring to Creepy Magic Kid on the basis of last chance survival panic mode.

This would also necessitate all the idiots fighting over the Iron Throne to have gone full scale Battle Royale, further depleting the available resources and indiscriminately slaughtering people left right and center to the point where an already endangered continent faced with a bad Winter will be basically defenceless against a legendary foe that seems pretty determined to end humanity.

Then, and only then, with so few survivors that everyone knows everyone pretty damn directly, running from the utter destruction wrought by the Others, would I believe Bran could be chosen as a leader. And even that possibility would be more the actual Lord Protector role than the traditional kingship we were shown.

This is what I think will happen.

Let's forget about the all-out war that will erupt between Daenerys and Aegon for a moment.

  • A greyscale epidemic -- not including the other more standard wintertime illnesses -- is eminent.
  • There will be a horrifically massive food shortage.
  • Dead people won't be staying dead. So you either have flesh-eating zombies running around or freshly-resurrected people broken beyond repair trying to take control.
  • It's going to be the coldest winter with the ugliest weather in centuries. Not to mention that the sun probably won't be shining, enshrouding the whole world in darkness.

And then there are the Others.

Yeah, I am expecting (at least) 75% of the people in Westeros to die or be horribly maimed.

The only people I can see surviving long enough to participate in the Great Council and be heard are Sansa, Arya, Samwell, Bran, Tyrion and Arianne. Basically, Tyrion will try to turn it in his favor but the Starks (particularly Sansa) will be ready for him and turn the tables on him. For the record, I am willing to bet money that Tyrion is not surviving the book series.

I agree. I think traditional kingship will die with the Targaryen dynasty. The Seven Kingdoms will either split back up into seven distinct kingdoms (I can see the North, Riverlands and the Vale becoming one nation though) or they will become a loose confederation. Bran will be more of a judge, a warden, a priest or a lord protector as you say...not an actual king.

On 8/19/2019 at 6:02 AM, Mystical said:

Even then I can't see it. Because lets say that in the books the Others make it past The North, everyone still alive flees south and then they devastate everything there as well before they are stopped. The status in the books is that a lot of Kingdoms are currently having their own problems of power. The War of the 5 Kings had previously ravaged several Kingdoms. You have Targ 1 invading, probably soon to be followed by Targ 2. Most of the continent will be depleted in both manpower and food once all these conflicts/wars/invasions and a mythical ice threat are over.

After all that why in God's name would people chose to follow a crippled 12 year old who has no experience in governing? Sure Bran did a few weeks (with advisors) while Robb went to war but what people will know about that time is that the Ironborn invaded and won while he was 'ruling'. After so much devastation people will want someone who is a people person who can inspire them to rally around, Bran spend the last few years with a handful of people away from society. And lets not forget that he is freaking 12 years old, people would want an adult to shoulder so much responsibility. And even if Bran was instrumental in defeating the Others with his magical abilities, this is still a continent full of religious people. Most of them would be fearful of Bran because he got his powers from the Old Gods. Other than The North, the rest of the continent worships the Faith of the 7 who would see any other religion as evil. I just can't see any believable way in the books for Bran to be King of the entire continent.

And if GRRM still forces this endgame somehow, what does that say about the moral of his story? In the end there is still only one King, the same as in the beginning of the story. That humans are too corrupt, immoral, imperfect, selfish and stupid to be allowed to rule? They need a literal God (with all the knowledge from thousands of years of previous governments) to preside over them to show them how to do it right. That's downright infantilizing.

Let me put it to you this way.

If Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, then that would make him King of all Westeros.

If Jon is the rightful King, then who would be his heir? This is where it gets a bit fuzzy. Jon will likely be married to Daenerys by the time everyone finds out his true parentage. And Aegon's true nature is unknown:

  1. We don't know if he actually is Rhaegar's first son who was disinherited by Aerys or Rhaegar. He actually could have never been disinherited but because of his death, there could be another "secret" will that puts Jon ahead of Aegon.
  2. We don't know if Aegon is actually a Blackfyre or a regular degular dude that's been spoonfed lies, fallacies and fairy tales by Varys.

In any case, Aegon is doomed. He has several very stubborn, very powerful people who are being pitted against him: Euron, Littlefinger, Cersei, Daenerys, Stannis. He's not going to make it. When the truth about Jon gets out, where Aegon falls in the line of succession (either before or right after Jon) doesn't matter. The point is that Aegon is Jon's closest male relative paternally speaking. And Aegon is dead meat.

Daenerys is going to marry Jon, probably before she finds out who he really is. In any case, Daenerys will be joining her claim with Jon in marriage. Because they are still paternal blood relatives, Daenerys would become Jon's heir once Jon ascends to kingship.

But when Daenerys and Aegon die, Jon has no more Targaryen heirs because there are no more Targaryens -- disputed or otherwise. Everything that Jon has and is would then pass onto his closest male relative on his mother's side. His closet male blood relative on his mother's side is Bran Stark.

So, yes, currently, Bran has a clear legal right to the Iron Throne after House Targaryen burns out.

Now, whether the book version of Bran will rule in his own right or will take a backseat role and let Sansa do most of the work remains to be seen. It is illogical for Bran and Sansa to both become king and queen of their own separate kingdoms. Bran could literally be the one making final judgements and sitting the throne while Sansa is the Hand of the King, responsible for the day-to-day governance.

His magic powers and the role he plays during the Long Night would only add to the mystique and make him more eligible.

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On 8/22/2019 at 1:48 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Exactly!

It's just absolutely crazy that people continue to defend this. D&D literally had 8 seasons (i.e. all the time in the world) to do this.

When season 3 was in post-production. Late 2012, early 2013...

This is what I think will happen.

Let's forget about the all-out war that will erupt between Daenerys and Aegon for a moment.

  • A greyscale epidemic -- not including the other more standard wintertime illnesses -- is eminent.
  • There will be a horrifically massive food shortage.
  • Dead people won't be staying dead. So you either have flesh-eating zombies running around or freshly-resurrected people broken beyond repair trying to take control.
  • It's going to be the coldest winter with the ugliest weather in centuries. Not to mention that the sun probably won't be shining, enshrouding the whole world in darkness.

And then there are the Others.

Yeah, I am expecting (at least) 75% of the people in Westeros to die or be horribly maimed.

The only people I can see surviving long enough to participate in the Great Council and be heard are Sansa, Arya, Samwell, Bran, Tyrion and Arianne. Basically, Tyrion will try to turn it in his favor but the Starks (particularly Sansa) will be ready for him and turn the tables on him. For the record, I am willing to bet money that Tyrion is not surviving the book series.

I agree. I think traditional kingship will die with the Targaryen dynasty. The Seven Kingdoms will either split back up into seven distinct kingdoms (I can see the North, Riverlands and the Vale becoming one nation though) or they will become a loose confederation. Bran will be more of a judge, a warden, a priest or a lord protector as you say...not an actual king.

Let me put it to you this way.

If Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, then that would make him King of all Westeros.

If Jon is the rightful King, then who would be his heir? This is where it gets a bit fuzzy. Jon will likely be married to Daenerys by the time everyone finds out his true parentage. And Aegon's true nature is unknown:

  1. We don't know if he actually is Rhaegar's first son who was disinherited by Aerys or Rhaegar. He actually could have never been disinherited but because of his death, there could be another "secret" will that puts Jon ahead of Aegon.
  2. We don't know if Aegon is actually a Blackfyre or a regular degular dude that's been spoonfed lies, fallacies and fairy tales by Varys.

In any case, Aegon is doomed. He has several very stubborn, very powerful people who are being pitted against him: Euron, Littlefinger, Cersei, Daenerys, Stannis. He's not going to make it. When the truth about Jon gets out, where Aegon falls in the line of succession (either before or right after Jon) doesn't matter. The point is that Aegon is Jon's closest male relative paternally speaking. And Aegon is dead meat.

Daenerys is going to marry Jon, probably before she finds out who he really is. In any case, Daenerys will be joining her claim with Jon in marriage. Because they are still paternal blood relatives, Daenerys would become Jon's heir once Jon ascends to kingship.

But when Daenerys and Aegon die, Jon has no more Targaryen heirs because there are no more Targaryens -- disputed or otherwise. Everything that Jon has and is would then pass onto his closest male relative on his mother's side. His closet male blood relative on his mother's side is Bran Stark.

So, yes, currently, Bran has a clear legal right to the Iron Throne after House Targaryen burns out.

Now, whether the book version of Bran will rule in his own right or will take a backseat role and let Sansa do most of the work remains to be seen. It is illogical for Bran and Sansa to both become king and queen of their own separate kingdoms. Bran could literally be the one making final judgements and sitting the throne while Sansa is the Hand of the King, responsible for the day-to-day governance.

His magic powers and the role he plays during the Long Night would only add to the mystique and make him more eligible.

Why do people keep talking as if it works that way? I'm not a medieval expert but as far as I know, the claim has to be through blood relatives. Relatives by marriage don't have any claim.

I don't think dynasties or blood claims are going to play any role in how Bran becomes king in the end; the power structure will probably be in such tatters after the white walkers and dragons that no one will care about blood claims anymore.

 

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Here's a somewhat off-topic question, does the phrase: "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it" (which I think is GRRM's inspiration for making Bran king) have any relevance anymore, in light of current events? It's clear from the plight of the world today that people who know history are just as doomed to repeat it as people who don't.

We've got the rise of far right movements and general douchebaggery going on around the world; and it's not happening because people don't know history. They're all perfectly aware of history, they just don't care.

So the idea that Westeros is gonna enter some golden age because it now has a leader who knows the history seems a little naive, considering.

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GRRM seems to favor the idea of a bookish philosopher king rather than a militant conqueror. This fits Sam, Sansa, Tyrion, and Bran who love stories, histories, and myths. So these characters rising would be a f-you to the jockish warlords who see books and think they're for burning.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2019 at 4:04 PM, Mystical said:

If GRRM doesn't want to go the route of God-King presiding over humans (which would make me burn the books) then he should make the invasion of the Others a truly apocalyptic event. Currently no region would be prepared for it, everyone is dealing with wars, invasions and power struggles. If the Others were to make it into Westeros now, most of the continent would be screwed. The only way to effect change would not be via some all-knowing God presiding over all but to shake up the status quo by almost complete annihilation. What better way to make people question the entire system that the continent operates on? Sadly humans seem to need such extremes to be shaken out of their stupidity.

The next book is "The Winds of Winter". The next and last will be (hopefully) "A Dream of Spring".  And the complete series is "A Song of Ice and Fire". I expect the threat from the Others (and something of Fire) will be of more importance than what D&D gave us.

Also from George R.R. Martin talks to David Shuster

Quote

Well, of course, the two outlying ones — the things going on north of the Wall, and then there is Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons — are of course the ice and fire of the title, “A Song of Ice and Fire.” The central stuff — the stuff that’s happening in the middle, in King’s Landing, the capital of the seven kingdoms — is much more based on historical events, historical fiction. It’s loosely drawn from the Wars of the Roses and some of the other conflicts around the 100 Years’ War, although, of course, with a fantasy twist. You know, one of the dynamics I started with, there was the sense of people being so consumed by their petty struggles for power within the seven kingdoms, within King’s Landing — who’s going to be king? Who’s going to be on the Small Council? Who’s going to determine the policies? — that they’re blind to the much greater and more dangerous threats that are happening far away on the periphery of their kingdoms.

And of course, you can see that all through history. It’s a common dynamic that takes place in history. You know, the Greek city-states, before the birth of Christ, you know, and fighting with each other, squabbling with each other, even as Philip of Macedon built up his armies to conquer them all. But you even see it in modern times, you know — the political struggles of France, under the Third Republic, while the Nazi threat is rising.

But the French politicians would almost rather befriend the Nazis than each other. And maybe our lessons in the modern day too. Who knows? I mean, we have things going on in our world right now like climate change, that’s, you know, ultimately a threat to the entire world. But people are using it as a political football instead of, you know … You’d think everybody would get together.

This is something that can wipe out possibly the human race. So I wanted to do an analogue not specifically to the modern-day thing but as a general thing with the structure of the book.

If the Others were defeated at KL WF, without any expense by Cersei and the southern kingdoms, it would validate her strategy to completely ignore the vital threats.

I believe the Others are the "wake-up call". The thing that must unite people. Or they're lost. The gods' punishment because they've been bad boys and must learn better. Defeating the Others on the battlefield, by superior firepower, should not be the solution. Otherwise, the lesson would be "build nuclear weapons, don't care for good". 

Quote

Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only Dany has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I'm trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn't mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn't give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.

Some way, the "Prince That Was Promised" (Jon) must mean something. Must unite people. Bran power is not at war, but in knowledge. He is certainly critical to establish an understanding with the Others, or the Old Gods, or whatever power that deals the punishment. But I don't think he is the man that people will follow. Besides, I don't think he can live long without being made of wood. His body is crippled, severely. He must leave it to become, not god-like, just greenseer.

On 8/20/2019 at 10:45 PM, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Bran as a 'reigning' figure, probably on the Isle of Faces?, hidden and eventually forgotten, I can take.

No need, just BR's cave.

On 8/20/2019 at 10:24 PM, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I truly believe Bran will be important in the conflict ahead, but a King? King of the However Many Kingdoms and elected to be so as much as a Targaryen in all but name? Nah.

ditto

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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On 8/16/2019 at 7:48 PM, Mystical said:

People should not be required to watch/read an entirely different work in order to understand the story. It was D&D's job to explain it to us, not the people writing the prequel. This was D&D's story, plain and simple. It was up to them to explain to us what a 3ER is, how it works, who the previous 3ER was, the involvement of the children and the extend of the 3ER's powers, Bran's/3ER's weird behavior etc..

Interesting thoughts, and I do understand the desire to know all of those details right now.

But storytelling doesn't always work that way.  When GRRM wrote the first book, there was a LOT he knew, but didn't tell us.  Same with all the other books that have been published.

 

Whether it will all be satisfactorily explained eventually remains to be seen, but right now I think a lot of people are ripping Season 8 even though there is a LOT we still don't know.

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4 hours ago, Cron said:

Interesting thoughts, and I do understand the desire to know all of those details right now.

But storytelling doesn't always work that way.  When GRRM wrote the first book, there was a LOT he knew, but didn't tell us.  Same with all the other books that have been published.

 

Whether it will all be satisfactorily explained eventually remains to be seen, but right now I think a lot of people are ripping Season 8 even though there is a LOT we still don't know.

You were not talking about the books, you were talking about the show. The show is FINISHED. The show!book is DONE. GRRM's series it NOT. It was D&D's job, as the storytellers of the show!book, to explain their world to us. And that includes the WW and the 3ER. And to bring their story to a conclusion that makes sense. This has nothing to do with GRRM's book series or the prequel. This was D&D's story.

What we know or not doesn't freaking matter. The show is NOT the books and vice versa. The show is not the prequel. The show is it's own story and that story needs to make sense and the elements in it need to be explained.

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There is a very big issue with the system that the show came up with. 

In theory it looks very nice to have Bran as an independent power and everyone will vote for the next one. But this is theory. 

What will actually happen after Bran? 

Well….Bran will have no direct heir and due to the voting system he will not be able to appoint someone who he thinks will be the best option. So the kingdoms will have to vote. But will they do it peacefully??? Hell, its even very debatable why they did it peacefully in the show. One can certainly make the point that everyone was tired of wars at that point and they were ok with voting. But imagine once they are less tired of wars….

Everyone and their dogs will be all out to try and influence votes! Hell...you have a literal mercenary leading one of the strongest kingdoms. Do you think the mercenary will be happy and just stop there? Then you have one kingdom who declared independence but somehow still had the most influence in the voting process. There is absolutely no way the other kingdoms are going to be happy with this long term. 

Its a true SHITSTORM waiting to blow. 

And then there are a couple deeper questions that everyone should be asking themselves. 

Question 1: If they realize how much of a God Bran now is, how do they know its intentions? From what everyone can see Bran did nothing to solve any conflicts in a more peaceful way. So why the hell do they think Bran will care to give everyone a good life? He absolutely did not care at all as far as they could see. If that was Bran´s purpose he could have told Arya to kill the NK, then Cersei, then Danny, and be done with it! Bran´s purpose is FAR FROM CLEAR to anyone! So WHY TRUST HIM? What has he really done so far to earn anyone´s trust? 

Question 2: Why is the North having so much power? Like….more then half the people in the voting council are either from the North or in the North´s sphere of influence. How could this be accepted or tolerated? Is it because they control the most armies? Is that even true? Is it because they faced the NK? Does that even matter for the present and future? Its 7 kingdoms…..more then half of the 7 kingdoms have nothing to feel close to the North. Both cultural and social wise the North is further away from most of the 7 kingdoms. They should be the 1 single kingdom that everyone else would have more trouble following. But somehow everyone is going to be ok with a King which is both a Stark, very closely linked with the Old Gods, a follower of northern traditions, the brother of the independent Queen in the North. Sure Dorne, the Iron Islands, Highgarden, the Crownlands, are all be very happy to follow this guy. No doubt!!!!! 

 

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On 8/31/2019 at 5:56 PM, Mystical said:

You were not talking about the books, you were talking about the show. The show is FINISHED. The show!book is DONE. GRRM's series it NOT. It was D&D's job, as the storytellers of the show!book, to explain their world to us. And that includes the WW and the 3ER. And to bring their story to a conclusion that makes sense. This has nothing to do with GRRM's book series or the prequel. This was D&D's story.

What we know or not doesn't freaking matter. The show is NOT the books and vice versa. The show is not the prequel. The show is it's own story and that story needs to make sense and the elements in it need to be explained.

Well, I only raised the issue of the books as an example of how story-telling (indeed, GOOD story-telling) often works.

Yes, I know the books and show are different.

Having said that, I am confident a sequel (not just a "prequel," but an actual "sequel") to the show WILL eventually be made, and I expect that when that happens we will get a lot more answers to questions which are reasonable to ask, and to which I would like to have answers, too.

 

 

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On 8/23/2019 at 2:32 PM, Darryk said:

Why do people keep talking as if it works that way? I'm not a medieval expert but as far as I know, the claim has to be through blood relatives. Relatives by marriage don't have any claim.

I don't think dynasties or blood claims are going to play any role in how Bran becomes king in the end; the power structure will probably be in such tatters after the white walkers and dragons that no one will care about blood claims anymore.

 

They do in desperate times when there is no one else to inherit.

Even in the story, it is said that the Estermonts (next of kin to the Baratheons, regardless of their marital ties) are the legal heirs to the Baratheon dynasty should something happen to Myrcella and Tommen.

Catelyn also brings up the fact that the Starks have family in the Vale (by blood and by marriage) and that Robb is well within his rights to make them his heirs.

On 9/13/2019 at 3:22 PM, Cron said:

Well, I only raised the issue of the books as an example of how story-telling (indeed, GOOD story-telling) often works.

Yes, I know the books and show are different.

Having said that, I am confident a sequel (not just a "prequel," but an actual "sequel") to the show WILL eventually be made, and I expect that when that happens we will get a lot more answers to questions which are reasonable to ask, and to which I would like to have answers, too.

There is absolutely no need for a sequel.

The showrunners deliberately chose to include fade-to-black montages, cock jokes and their rather absurdly nihilistic and complacent political views rather than tie up loose ends and answer questions about the future of the survivors, Westeros and the world at large.

They f---d it up. The show doesn't deserve a sequel. It deserves a reboot/remake in 15-20 years

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