Theory: Book Jorah kills Jon

[Tyrion1991]

I think it’s fairly obvious that the show runners wanted the fan service Stark ending and did not want any consequences from Jon killing Daenerys. It’s been said already but Greyworm, the Unsullied, the Dragon and the Bloodriders? There was a queue to kill him and they ignore common sense to have that happen.

So I think it’s reasonable that if George told DND that “Jorah kills Jon for murdering Dany and that’s how Jorah goes to the wall like his father wanted” they would have ignored that.  Because that wouldn’t be a fan service Stark ending. 

Obviously in the show they kill Jorah. But that was apparently a late change they made. Initially he was meant to be Jon’s best buddy and go out with Tormund. I think even they realised this was too much of a stretch. Even show Jorah would have killed Jon.

Book Jorah on the other hand, let’s make the list:

- He hates the Starks. They are ones who exiled him and took his happiness with Lynesse away from him. He lost home and the woman he loved. So Jon does that to him again. 

- He has seen Dany kills thousands of people at Astapor. He’s not going to care if she kills Westerosi instead. Not enough to forgive her murderers.

- Super jealous Jorah is never going to be best buddies and be okay with Dany being with another man unless he ends with another woman. Even then I’d have my doubts.

- He’s a bear. What happens when you kill a bears cub?

- He has spent the entire series trying to protect Daenerys and went through hell doing it. He specifically warns her against trusting people blindly because they could just stab her; which is exactly how she dies. He’s angry enough to punch Tyrion over calling him names so I don’t see him being forgiving on this.

- If Jorah makes it to the endgame that’s the longest love story in the series. Only Sam and Gilly come to mind and even that’s Clash onwards. Plus with Dany it’s more prominent. So if George is going for the ultimate tragedy then the worst thing he could do to Jorah is have Daenerys go out because he fails to protect her. So his arc is building towards him avenging Danys Death.

- An unrequited lover avenging a woman taken away from him. Who does that remind us of? Perhaps the son should share the fathers fate? Rhaegar died after all.

- I don’t think Jon should be allowed to walk away from that. He should bear the price so that the North does not if the slugs as honourable as he claims. 

- I think if George picked anyone in the conga line to kill Jon then Jorah is pretty much the guy.

 

 

[Haskelltier]

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I think it’s fairly obvious that the show runners wanted the fan service Stark ending and did not want any consequences from Jon killing Daenerys.

I don't really know what the showrunners intended. Once I thought that they wanted to deliver a well written, believable story. But almost everything the showrunners had to write themselves was bad or worse. Beginning with everything that happened in Dorne after Oberyns death or Littlefinger/Sansas idea to merry Sansa to Ramsey Bolton. That was simply bullshit, I don't know how anybody could come up with that crab. So I don't really know, what the showrunners wanted at the end of this story. I personally think, that they wanted to be over with it as fast as possible and they took the hollywood way (action, spectacle, nice pictures, CGI with cringy dialogue and a plot that had more holes then a net).

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s been said already but Greyworm, the Unsullied, the Dragon and the Bloodriders? There was a queue to kill him and they ignore common sense to have that happen.

Yes, you found one hole, but thats only one out of uncountably many.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

So I think it’s reasonable that if George told DND that “Jorah kills Jon for murdering Dany and that’s how Jorah goes to the wall like his father wanted” they would have ignored that.  Because that wouldn’t be a fan service Stark ending. 

Jon could be hit by a falling coconut and die and that wouldn't be a fan service Stark ending, so will he be hit by a coconut in the books? There are many people who might kill Jon in the books. Jorah is one of them and not the likeliest.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Obviously in the show they kill Jorah. But that was apparently a late change they made.

It's hard to tell what the showrunners wanted or changed lately. The whole story/plot was so bad, it might as well been their original plan and the best they could come up with.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Initially he was meant to be Jon’s best buddy and go out with Tormund.

I got the impression, that he was a loyal servant to Daenerys and lost his life following that task. That at least was relatively clear in the show. He went North of the Wall with Jon and Tormund, because Daenerys needed a proof (yes, that was bullshit, but that is what the show wanted desperately to sell to the viewer) and nobody couldn't/wanted to do it exept him (okay Jon volunteered later, but Jorah was the first, because he wanted to serve his queen).

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

He hates the Starks. They are ones who exiled him and took his happiness with Lynesse away from him. He lost home and the woman he loved. So Jon does that to him again.

He hated the Starks equally at the beginning of the show. And I think that even Jorah wasn't so delusional to think that the Starks caused his breakup with Lynesse. His marriage had serious problems well before he sold the criminals and before Ned knew about his crime.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

He has seen Dany kills thousands of people at Astapor. He’s not going to care if she kills Westerosi instead. Not enough to forgive her murderers.

I think the reason is the deciding factor here. In Astapor she freed slaves and ended slavery there (or at least tried to, given what happened after that). If she simply massaceres innocent people, even loyal Jorah might question his queen.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Super jealous Jorah is never going to be best buddies and be okay with Dany being with another man unless he ends with another woman. Even then I’d have my doubts.

I don't know. I think he knows somewhere that Daenerys doesn't love him. He hasn't realized that to this point in the story, but that might change.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

He’s a bear. What happens when you kill a bears cub?

And Robert Aryn is a falcon, does that mean he will take wings any moment and fly?

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

He has spent the entire series trying to protect Daenerys and went through hell doing it. He specifically warns her against trusting people blindly because they could just stab her; which is exactly how she dies. He’s angry enough to punch Tyrion over calling him names so I don’t see him being forgiving on this.

If Daenerys commits massmurder in the books too, that might change.

 

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

If Jorah makes it to the endgame that’s the longest love story in the series. Only Sam and Gilly come to mind and even that’s Clash onwards. Plus with Dany it’s more prominent. So if George is going for the ultimate tragedy then the worst thing he could do to Jorah is have Daenerys go out because he fails to protect her. So his arc is building towards him avenging Danys Death.

Or he himself might kill her, when he realises what an evil person she became.

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

An unrequited lover avenging a woman taken away from him. Who does that remind us of? Perhaps the son should share the fathers fate? Rhaegar died after all.

Of Robert Baratheon. Does that mean, Jorah will be king of the seven kingdoms, because Robert killed Rhaegar and became king after that. Or are you only searching for small bits and pieces, which fit into your argumentation, and ignoring the rest?

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t think Jon should be allowed to walk away from that. He should bear the price so that the North does not if the slugs as honourable as he claims. 

I don't know how George will end his story. Maybe he comes to a similar end on a very different route (or at least I hope that it will be a very different route, because the route the show took was very bad) and that'll change your opinion.

Maybe you are right, but in my opinion this theory isn't very likely.

[Tyrion1991]

31 minutes ago, Haskelltier said:

I don't really know what the showrunners intended. Once I thought that they wanted to deliver a well written, believable story. But almost everything the showrunners had to write themselves was bad or worse. Beginning with everything that happened in Dorne after Oberyns death or Littlefinger/Sansas idea to merry Sansa to Ramsey Bolton. That was simply bullshit, I don't know how anybody could come up with that crab. So I don't really know, what the showrunners wanted at the end of this story. I personally think, that they wanted to be over with it as fast as possible and they took the hollywood way (action, spectacle, nice pictures, CGI with cringy dialogue and a plot that had more holes then a net).

Yes, you found one hole, but thats only one out of uncountably many.

Jon could be hit by a falling coconut and die and that wouldn't be a fan service Stark ending, so will he be hit by a coconut in the books? There are many people who might kill Jon in the books. Jorah is one of them and not the likeliest.

It's hard to tell what the showrunners wanted or changed lately. The whole story/plot was so bad, it might as well been their original plan and the best they could come up with.

I got the impression, that he was a loyal servant to Daenerys and lost his life following that task. That at least was relatively clear in the show. He went North of the Wall with Jon and Tormund, because Daenerys needed a proof (yes, that was bullshit, but that is what the show wanted desperately to sell to the viewer) and nobody couldn't/wanted to do it exept him (okay Jon volunteered later, but Jorah was the first, because he wanted to serve his queen).

He hated the Starks equally at the beginning of the show. And I think that even Jorah wasn't so delusional to think that the Starks caused his breakup with Lynesse. His marriage had serious problems well before he sold the criminals and before Ned knew about his crime.

I think the reason is the deciding factor here. In Astapor she freed slaves and ended slavery there (or at least tried to, given what happened after that). If she simply massaceres innocent people, even loyal Jorah might question his queen.

I don't know. I think he knows somewhere that Daenerys doesn't love him. He hasn't realized that to this point in the story, but that might change.

And Robert Aryn is a falcon, does that mean he will take wings any moment and fly?

If Daenerys commits massmurder in the books too, that might change.

 

Or he himself might kill her, when he realises what an evil person she became.

Of Robert Baratheon. Does that mean, Jorah will be king of the seven kingdoms, because Robert killed Rhaegar and became king after that. Or are you only searching for small bits and pieces, which fit into your argumentation, and ignoring the rest?

I don't know how George will end his story. Maybe he comes to a similar end on a very different route (or at least I hope that it will be a very different route, because the route the show took was very bad) and that'll change your opinion.

Maybe you are right, but in my opinion this theory isn't very likely.

 

Because I think Jorah is a pretty important non POV character so it’s not the same as Jon randomly dying to a coconut. Jon has a link to Jorah through Dany, through having Longclaw and his father. Jon will have quite literally taken his fathers love, Longvclaw and Daenerys from Jorah. That’s quite the list of reasons to not like him.

You can google the relevant articles where they talk about changing Jorahs ending.

In the books Dany is going full Genghis Khan. It will not be her first rodeo at KL. Jorah was pretty clear when he said it was the way of the world when the Dothraki are brutalising the Lhasarreen. He’s never been overly compassionate about people he doesn’t love.

I think if she went crazy he would continue to believe he could save her. In ADWD he is willing to travel across the world, when half of it wants Dany dead, just on a mad quest to try and save her. If he hasn’t given up on her after that then he probably never is.

You picked one of the least developed factions to make this inference. Jorah being a literal bear is a major metaphor for his entire characterisation. Plus you have the Bear and the Maiden Fair analogy which filters into a fair bit of the lines. It’s a recurring theme. Dany even thinks that Jorah thinks she is his cub in ACOK and that’s consistent with his behaviour. We know this because he’s chosen violence whenever anyone has threatened Dany.

I don’t think he would or should as that would be morbidly depressing. But yes, Jorah being the one to do it would be a vastly more satisfying way to conclude the story because the two characters have been together from the beginning of Danys tale. Rather than a love story packed into the final chapter I would feel that would be more earned and less abrupt; this random Stark literally derailing Danny’s adventure. 

Lol, no. The only way Jorah could become King is if he actually married Dany. If Dany dies that won’t happen. Even if the plot went bonkers and he became a dragon rider and ended up inheriting House Hightower he wouldn’t end up as King. I think I mentioned earlier that Jorah going to the wall to die with his failure would be his end. If he kills the King that’s a pretty fine reason to take the Black.

I think you’re of the view that Jorah is a very disposable minor character like Strong Belwas or Danys bloodriders and that George won’t really be doing anything with him going forward. It’s a very common view. But I think people are really wrong about this. George could easily have written Jorah out or not bothered making links like Jeor being  LC or passing Longclaw to Jon. Instead he has him figure heavily in ADWD in Tyrion’s arc, his absence in Danys and then setting up Sam who knows the Old bears promise going his wife’s home city which is facing an Ironborn invasion? I think he has a big role in the story. 

Whereas I think you’re placing Jon on a pedestal. Once Jon kills Dany, he will have finally chosen duty over love. He will have concluded his story and destiny. Aemon said that would not be an easy thing. That means death. It doesn’t mean walking off into the sunset and getting off with a slap on the wrists. It was easy.

 

[Apoplexy]

On 6/22/2019 at 3:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I think it’s fairly obvious that the show runners wanted the fan service Stark ending and did not want any consequences from Jon killing Daenerys. It’s been said already but Greyworm, the Unsullied, the Dragon and the Bloodriders? There was a queue to kill him and they ignore common sense to have that happen

My impression based on the final season was the only people the show runners wanted to serve were themselves. They wanted to add shock elements ignoring plot and logic and they did so.

As for book jorah, he comes across as a little creepy to me. He doesn't seem emotionally attached or devoted to Dany like show jorah. So I'm not sure he would care enough to kill Jon over killing dany at a peril to his own safety.

[Ghost7272]

I actually thought, until the Long Night episode when he died, that Jorah would be the one to kill Daenerys.

[Haskelltier]

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Because I think Jorah is a pretty important non POV character so it’s not the same as Jon randomly dying to a coconut.

You claimed that Jorah will kill Jon in the book and that the showrunners didn't want that. Well, then I claim Jon will be hit by a coconut (alternatively one of the dozens "more important non-POV characters" will kill him) in the books and the showrunners didn't want that. So, yes, maybe Jon will die (a second time) in the books and the showrunners changed that, but that doesn't mean it has to be Jorah killing him.

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Jon has a link to Jorah through Dany,

In the first five books they don't even know that the other one exists. Jon might be Daenerys nephew (which is not confirmed in the books, only hinted), but thats all. I don't know how George will tell the rest of the story, will they meat, will they fall in love, will Jorah live long enough and be there when that happens? Maybe or maybe not.

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Jon will have quite literally taken his fathers love, Longvclaw and Daenerys from Jorah. That’s quite the list of reasons to not like him.

He gave Longclaw back to his father when he went into exile. And Jeor gifted the sword to a man who saved his life in a heroic act only very few would have done similarly. Thats all (yes, Jon overinterpreted that too, but in the end, Jeor only wanted to thank Jon for what he did). Will Jorah like Jon? Probably not, because there are very few other people, he likes.

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You can google the relevant articles where they talk about changing Jorahs ending.

I could, but I really don't care why the showrunners did things the way they did and why they did some last minute changes. The overall story was a big mess. And I won't overinterpret what they did.

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

In the books Dany is going full Genghis Khan. It will not be her first rodeo at KL. Jorah was pretty clear when he said it was the way of the world when the Dothraki are brutalising the Lhasarreen. He’s never been overly compassionate about people he doesn’t love.

Well, seeing your loved one massmurder a whole city without good reason might change that.

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I think if she went crazy he would continue to believe he could save her. In ADWD he is willing to travel across the world, when half of it wants Dany dead, just on a mad quest to try and save her. If he hasn’t given up on her after that then he probably never is.

He is heavily invested into her, but that doesn't mean he will follow her blindy and will accept everything she might do.

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You picked one of the least developed factions to make this inference. Jorah being a literal bear is a major metaphor for his entire characterisation. Plus you have the Bear and the Maiden Fair analogy which filters into a fair bit of the lines. It’s a recurring theme. Dany even thinks that Jorah thinks she is his cub in ACOK and that’s consistent with his behaviour. We know this because he’s chosen violence whenever anyone has threatened Dany.

My point is, that symbols and metaphors in generall don't have to mean a lot. Yes, some are used to characterize people, but I would be careful to unterstand them to literally.

9 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t think he would or should as that would be morbidly depressing. But yes, Jorah being the one to do it would be a vastly more satisfying way to conclude the story because the two characters have been together from the beginning of Danys tale. Rather than a love story packed into the final chapter I would feel that would be more earned and less abrupt; this random Stark literally derailing Danny’s adventure.

Its definitely a possibility and at least as likely as your theory.

9 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Lol, no.

Thats the point. It would be rediculous. You compared Jon with Rhaegar Targaryen and Jorah with Robert Baratheon, because there was one situation in their lives, which fitted into your argumentation. But you ignored the fact, that the rest didn't fit. You can find a lot of those small situational comparisons between any two characters of the story, that doesn't proof anything.

9 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I think you’re of the view that Jorah is a very disposable minor character like Strong Belwas or Danys bloodriders and that George won’t really be doing anything with him going forward. It’s a very common view. But I think people are really wrong about this. George could easily have written Jorah out or not bothered making links like Jeor being  LC or passing Longclaw to Jon. Instead he has him figure heavily in ADWD in Tyrion’s arc, his absence in Danys and then setting up Sam who knows the Old bears promise going his wife’s home city which is facing an Ironborn invasion? I think he has a big role in the story. 

The point is, you are building your theory on quicksand. It might happen as you said, all your comparisons, analogies and assumptions might be correct, but it don't have to and there are literally dozens of other ways (equally plausible) to end this story without Jorah killing Jon.

9 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Whereas I think you’re placing Jon on a pedestal.

No, I'm not. I only said, that your argumentation is very fragile and miles away from good evidence or facts. A good fan fiction, which might come true, but probably won't.

[Tyrion1991]

10 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

My impression based on the final season was the only people the show runners wanted to serve were themselves. They wanted to add shock elements ignoring plot and logic and they did so.

As for book jorah, he comes across as a little creepy to me. He doesn't seem emotionally attached or devoted to Dany like show jorah. So I'm not sure he would care enough to kill Jon over killing dany at a peril to his own safety.

 

Hes not a POV character but you see him mostly through the filter of Dany. Who absolutely adores the man to an absurd extent. George spends two books emphasising how close these two are before he tries to make a pass on her. If you didn’t have that then yes, he’d be no different than Luttlefinger or Dontos. However that IMO sets the tone of all their interactions.

I don’t think Tyrion would mistake a man wanting to get his end in and somebody smitten with love who wants to save her. Tyrion is too cynical and doesn’t take people’s nonsense; but he accepts that?

Hes taken a lot of risks for Dany.

[Dokivi]

On 6/22/2019 at 10:15 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I think it’s fairly obvious that the show runners wanted the fan service Stark ending and did not want any consequences from Jon killing Daenerys. It’s been said already but Greyworm, the Unsullied, the Dragon and the Bloodriders? There was a queue to kill him and they ignore common sense to have that happen.

So I think it’s reasonable that if George told DND that “Jorah kills Jon for murdering Dany and that’s how Jorah goes to the wall like his father wanted” they would have ignored that.  Because that wouldn’t be a fan service Stark ending. 

Obviously in the show they kill Jorah. But that was apparently a late change they made. Initially he was meant to be Jon’s best buddy and go out with Tormund. I think even they realised this was too much of a stretch. Even show Jorah would have killed Jon.

Book Jorah on the other hand, let’s make the list:

- He hates the Starks. They are ones who exiled him and took his happiness with Lynesse away from him. He lost home and the woman he loved. So Jon does that to him again. 

- He has seen Dany kills thousands of people at Astapor. He’s not going to care if she kills Westerosi instead. Not enough to forgive her murderers.

- Super jealous Jorah is never going to be best buddies and be okay with Dany being with another man unless he ends with another woman. Even then I’d have my doubts.

- He’s a bear. What happens when you kill a bears cub?

- He has spent the entire series trying to protect Daenerys and went through hell doing it. He specifically warns her against trusting people blindly because they could just stab her; which is exactly how she dies. He’s angry enough to punch Tyrion over calling him names so I don’t see him being forgiving on this.

- If Jorah makes it to the endgame that’s the longest love story in the series. Only Sam and Gilly come to mind and even that’s Clash onwards. Plus with Dany it’s more prominent. So if George is going for the ultimate tragedy then the worst thing he could do to Jorah is have Daenerys go out because he fails to protect her. So his arc is building towards him avenging Danys Death.

- An unrequited lover avenging a woman taken away from him. Who does that remind us of? Perhaps the son should share the fathers fate? Rhaegar died after all.

- I don’t think Jon should be allowed to walk away from that. He should bear the price so that the North does not if the slugs as honourable as he claims. 

- I think if George picked anyone in the conga line to kill Jon then Jorah is pretty much the guy.

 

 

I think that if the books go with Jon killing Dany, then it will be the Dothraki who kill Jon. Because this solves the plot hole of Dothraki staying in Westeros and being all cool and peaceful now, or just leaving to Naath with the Unsullied, or whatever it is that happened with them in the show. From asoiaf wiki:

"Only a khal can ask a man to become his bloodrider, by saying "I ask your oath, that will live and die as blood of my blood, riding at my side to keep me safe from harm."^[2]

Ancient traditions proclaim that when a khal dies, his bloodriders die with him. Should the khal die in battle, the bloodriders live only long enough to avenge him. Once done, the last service the bloodriders must perform is to escort the khaleesi to Vaes Dothrak to join the dosh khaleen, and then they are to join their khal in death.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Is it fanservice if the author himself prefers House Stark, of which Jon is a member? The author is the original "Stark fan"

And I think going back to the NW is punishment enough for Jon, effectively taking away everything he wanted out of life (having a child and being Lord of Winterfell) - if you even believe Jon should be punished (I don't). 

I dont think fanservice is going on here, I think the problem in the ending is the double standards that GRRM has created by elevating his favs. If Grrm wanted a magical, all powerful god-king.... Dany Targ was right there.

Grrm: God-kings* are bad

also Grrm: kinslayers** are bad

*Except those named Bran

**Except those named Tyrion

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

I would have had money on Jorah being the one to kill Dany... When Jon " You're my Queen" Snow chokes.

[King Wyman]

If they were willing to spare Jon when GRRM specifically told them he ends up dead, then there’s no way they would have killed Dany. 

As much as I hate D&D, their comments before the season began made it sound like they knew the ending was shit.

Pretty sure if it was up to them, the whole finale would have been fan service, instead of just the 90% fan service that it was.

Drogon, Grey Worm, and the Dothraki don’t kill Jon for no other reason than George told them he survives.

[Tyrion1991]

On 8/6/2019 at 8:15 PM, King Wyman said:

If they were willing to spare Jon when GRRM specifically told them he ends up dead, then there’s no way they would have killed Dany. 

As much as I hate D&D, their comments before the season began made it sound like they knew the ending was shit.

Pretty sure if it was up to them, the whole finale would have been fan service, instead of just the 90% fan service that it was.

Drogon, Grey Worm, and the Dothraki don’t kill Jon for no other reason than George told them he survives.

 

Yeah you probably are on the money. I’d like to believe George isn’t really going to throw Dany under the bus to make a banal point that the Starks are awesome.

On 6/27/2019 at 1:23 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Is it fanservice if the author himself prefers House Stark, of which Jon is a member? The author is the original "Stark fan"

And I think going back to the NW is punishment enough for Jon, effectively taking away everything he wanted out of life (having a child and being Lord of Winterfell) - if you even believe Jon should be punished (I don't). 

I dont think fanservice is going on here, I think the problem in the ending is the double standards that GRRM has created by elevating his favs. If Grrm wanted a magical, all powerful god-king.... Dany Targ was right there.

Grrm: God-kings* are bad

also Grrm: kinslayers** are bad

*Except those named Bran

**Except those named Tyrion

 

TBH in the back of my mind I’ve always felt there was something of a double standard in the text. Where were Jon or Robs Mirri Maz Dur? George basically talks around the bad consequences of the Starks vengeance and actions; whilst Danys actions are constantly grilled in the most severe manner. The Direwolves eat dozens of people and nobody bats an eyelid. A dragon, maybe burns one child by accident and it’s like this unspeakable crime.

Making yourself King of the North and carving up an Empire in the Riverlands is okay. But wanting the throne of Westeros is bad? There’s a heavy bias in how those two things are presented. You could easily have depicted the North in a far more negative light than George did. 

He seems to view the Starks claim to rule the North as inherently good and part of the natural order. Whereas Danys attempt to restore her family is depicted as a destructive act of chaos which will drown the world in blood. Which the show took to the point of absurdity. Thats scale, not intent. There just weren’t any cities for Robs army to sack in the Riverlands; but there three in Slavers Bay? 

 

Jon should have killed himself, although he’d probably screw that up as well. It’s entirely his fault. A million people died because he couldn’t love Dany and pushed her into a corner after he promised he wouldn’t put her claim in danger. Never mind telling her in the first place. He is a pathetic creature who has caused the death of millions and brought nothing but death into the world. A stupid rat who has never owned up to his own failures or taken the consequences of them. Yet DnD and GRRM want me to take him seriously as some kind of hero and Uber King? No. Just no. Him and the rest of his scheming family are just the worst.

 

[King Wyman]

22 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Yeah you probably are on the money. I’d like to believe George isn’t really going to throw Dany under the bus to make a banal point that the Starks are awesome.

 

TBH in the back of my mind I’ve always felt there was something of a double standard in the text. Where were Jon or Robs Mirri Maz Dur? George basically talks around the bad consequences of the Starks vengeance and actions; whilst Danys actions are constantly grilled in the most severe manner. The Direwolves eat dozens of people and nobody bats an eyelid. A dragon, maybe burns one child by accident and it’s like this unspeakable crime.

Making yourself King of the North and carving up an Empire in the Riverlands is okay. But wanting the throne of Westeros is bad? There’s a heavy bias in how those two things are presented. You could easily have depicted the North in a far more negative light than George did. 

He seems to view the Starks claim to rule the North as inherently good and part of the natural order. Whereas Danys attempt to restore her family is depicted as a destructive act of chaos which will drown the world in blood. Which the show took to the point of absurdity. Thats scale, not intent. There just weren’t any cities for Robs army to sack in the Riverlands; but there three in Slavers Bay? 

 

Jon should have killed himself, although he’d probably screw that up as well. It’s entirely his fault. A million people died because he couldn’t love Dany and pushed her into a corner after he promised he wouldn’t put her claim in danger. Never mind telling her in the first place. He is a pathetic creature who has caused the death of millions and brought nothing but death into the world. A stupid rat who has never owned up to his own failures or taken the consequences of them. Yet DnD and GRRM want me to take him seriously as some kind of hero and Uber King? No. Just no. Him and the rest of his scheming family are just the worst.

 

Blame D&D for Jon. They botched his character when Jamie punked him out in episode 1, and he never recovered. 

Look how many of his accomplishments were either toned down (defense of the Wall) or left out entirely (Stannis’ march). Even his speech to Mance was dumbed down to “durrrr I wanna fight for the living durrrrr.”

His fate is likely killing Dany and ending up at the Wall, but there’s no chance it happens the same way in the books. 

They left out AA/NN n Lightbringer, they forgot to give him something to do during the Long Night, they forgot his character is good at things besides swinging a sword (which he’s only OK at), they didn’t realize he’s capable of critical thinking, they thought he was a Ned clone for some reason, they forgot he doesn’t give a shit what Sansa thinks and that Arya actually likes him (or has a personality), and they stripped his POV away so Dany could go mad in 2 episodes. 

Then there’s Book Dany who has actual foreshadowing for her madness, isn’t advised by incompetent morons, won’t refuse to take King’s Landing because the show needs Lena Heady, isn’t as emotionally invested in the much younger Missiandi (who will have no relationship with Grey Worm), and she has a host of enemies the show left out that will likely earn her her reputation and give the nowhere near as bitter Sansa an actual reason to hate her.

She also won’t burn thousands of innocent people after the city surrendered, because GRRM isn’t a heavy-handed hack who needed the audience to be 100% sure Dany = bad. 

D&D knew killing her would divide the fan base, so they overcompensated with fan service for favorite characters (even Tyrion) hoping to appease people. 

GRRM said watching season 8 was like watching an alternate reality, so def don’t expect the same level of Stark porn or Jon buffoonery.