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What was Renly's plan (after Robert's death) if he didn't know about the twincest?

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Posted (edited)

We've no evidence that Renly knew about the twincest and the fact that all of Robert's children were bastards from Jaime as we understand from their conversation with Stannis, so if Renly didn't know about the twincest, did he really think he could take down the Lannisters on his own with the help of the Tyrells after Robert's death?

Or did he rely on the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters? Did he believe that he could use that conflict to his own advantage (since the conflict started before Robert's death). I am asking this because without the help of the Starks or the Arryns, it's a too risky plan to just rely on the Tyrells when the Lannisters were holding the KL, and there is Tywin Lannister he needs to deal with. And if he didn't know about the twincest, and then he should've known that Stannis could even side with the Lannisters knowing that Stannis's dutiful character, that could even divide the support from the Baratheons if Stannis sided with the Lannisters against Renly.

As far as I remember, Renly tried to negotiate with Eddard in the KL, but it didn't work. So I am guessing that he actually relied on the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, although he didn't try to reach Robb later (probably because Robb already declared a war against the Lannisters by the time Eddard lost his head, so he probably didn't see any need).

Edited by RYShh
to make it clear

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10 minutes ago, RYShh said:

We've no evidence that Renly knew about the twincest and the fact that all of Robert's children were bastards from Jaime as we understand from their conversation with Stannis, so if Renly didn't know about the twincest, did he really think he could take down the Lannisters on his own with the help of the Tyrells?

It would be replacing Cersei, not taking down the Lannisters. And it would not be Renly doing it but the King. Renly can't make Robert do anything, if Robert decides to replace Cersei it is Robert who faces the consequences.

Unless Robert kills his daughter or disinherits/kills his grandchildren I can't see Tywin rebelling over it. It's not a fight he's likely to win. He'd expect compensation, possibly in Jaime being released from his vows and Tommen as his ward, but I think he'd just have to agree to Robert's decision.

10 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Or did he rely on the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters?

There was no conflict between the Lannisters and Starks when he was sounding out his plan to Ned (via the appearance of Margaery) or the letters to Highgarden.

10 minutes ago, RYShh said:

 

Did he believe that he could use that conflict to his own advantage (since the conflict started before Robert's death). I am asking this because without the help of the Starks or the Arryns, it's a too risky plan to just rely on the Tyrells when the Lannisters were holding the KL, and there is Tywin Lannister he needs to deal with.

Why would it be risky for Renly? He's playing royal pimp much like Francis Bryan did for Henry VIII when he got the king interested in Jane Seymour while Anne (his own cousin) was pregnant and then played a part in her downfall as all her enemies conspired to bring her down.

Tywin did not go to war with Aerys, he's not going to do so with Robert, not when his own grandson is the heir of the Throne. He's not going to risk being grandson to a king.

 

10 minutes ago, RYShh said:

And if he didn't know about the twincest, and then he should've known that Stannis could even side with the Lannisters knowing that Stannis's dutiful character, that could even divide the support from the Baratheons if Stannis sided with the Lannisters against Renly.

Again, I'm not sure your point. This is not a contest where Cersei and Margaery get in a ring with each other, it is the King's call and his subjects are likely to go along with it.

Stannis is not likely to take Cersei's side over Roberts

 

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1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

It would be replacing Cersei, not taking down the Lannisters. And it would not be Renly doing it but the King. Renly can't make Robert do anything, if Robert decides to replace Cersei it is Robert who faces the consequences.

Unless Robert kills his daughter or disinherits/kills his grandchildren I can't see Tywin rebelling over it. It's not a fight he's likely to win. He'd expect compensation, possibly in Jaime being released from his vows and Tommen as his ward, but I think he'd just have to agree to Robert's decision.

There was no conflict between the Lannisters and Starks when he was sounding out his plan to Ned (via the appearance of Margaery) or the letters to Highgarden.

Why would it be risky for Renly? He's playing royal pimp much like Francis Bryan did for Henry VIII when he got the king interested in Jane Seymour while Anne (his own cousin) was pregnant and then played a part in her downfall as all her enemies conspired to bring her down.

Tywin did not go to war with Aerys, he's not going to do so with Robert, not when his own grandson is the heir of the Throne. He's not going to risk being grandson to a king.

 

Again, I'm not sure your point. This is not a contest where Cersei and Margaery get in a ring with each other, it is the King's call and his subjects are likely to go along with it.

Stannis is not likely to take Cersei's side over Roberts

 

I was talking about the events after Robert's death not before :blink:

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7 minutes ago, RYShh said:

I was talking about the events after Robert's death not before :blink:

After Robert's death he's not got much choice.

  1. He tells Ned that should Cersei get control they were in danger, he suggests arresting Cersei and Ned becoming Regent to Joffrey, Ned refuses
  2. Renly flees the city, Ned is arrested, Renly can only presume he is next
  3. Renly arrives at the Tyrells, Joffrey summons Renly, the Tyrells and a host of other possible dissidents to King Landing to swear fealty or be branded traitors.
  4. Renly has a small window of opportunity, go to Kings Landing and risk what happened to Ned, flee the realm, convince the Tarlys and other Lords to rebel with him, he picks the latter

Renly's got little choice but to rebel. Obviously being King is not a negative, most Lords would love to become King, but its not just ambition on Renly's part but him being convinced that Cersei means him harm and given Ned had just been executed he'd feel his suspicions were right.

Stannis is unpopular, Renly does not take him seriously as a threat and is convinced the offer of Storm's End is enough for him to side with him.

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He wouldn't start a war agains't the lannisters, he would just put Robert's children under the "guidance" of a Baratheon ally.

Tywin wouldn't be able to do anything. If Renly decided to make Eddard the regent, who really would stand agains't it? Everyone knew Eddard was Robert's friend and a loyal vassal after all. 

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Renly wants to be king himself after his royal brother was gutted by the boar. This is why he offers Ned to seize power in the castle and arrest Cersei and the children. It would be Renly as much as Ned - perhaps Renly even more considering he would be the guy controlling most of the men - controlling Cersei and the children, meaning they could all suddenly, and quite tragically suffer accidents.

Renly could also offer himself as future Lord/Prince Regent in place of Ned, sensing the man wants to return to Winterfell. In such a position it would be very easy to usurp the throne when he already controls the persons of the minor king and his siblings.

The idea that Renly had to crown himself king after Ned rejected his offer is utter nonsense.

He could have retreated to Storm's End or Highgarden, call his friends and bannermen to him and sell his swords to the highest bidder - both Cersei and Stannis could have profited from Renly's help if he controlled the swords of the Stormlands and the Reach. He didn't need to wear a crown or call himself king to do that.

He could also have helped to crush Cersei/Joffrey and the Lannister in the name of a King Stannis. The idea that Renly needed a crown to defend himself is nonsense. Borros Baratheon also didn't need to wear a crown to prevent Rhaenyra from destroying him. If there are many enemies in the field you can just as well sit out the war or enter the game only in the end.

Which basically gives us Renly's motive:

He crowned himself king because he wanted to be king. And he wanted to be king since he realized that his brother Robert would not survive. And while his issues with Cersei and Joffrey may have figured into that a little bit, Renly's wish to be king clearly goes back to him. It is about him. He thinks he would be a great king and that's why he wants to be king. He doesn't give a damn how he becomes king or that he has not exactly a good claim to the throne.

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Posted (edited)

He always had the ambition (which the Tyrells enhanced) and after Robert met with the boar his road was open. He wanted to become King and he definitely could. He had the full might of The Reach and like 90% of The Stormlands with him. He also had potential to take Dorn with him since they hated the Lannisters (so even if neutral they still wouldn't fight against him) and The Starks were already against The Lannisters so even if The Starks/ Tullys and Stannis teamed up he would have an equally strong force to fight them and The Lannisters were in between them. The Vale didn't have a strong leader at that time. The Reach is extremely powerful during the events of ASOIAF (even for their standarts before the Targaryen conquest) because of the relative stability that The Targaryen/Baratheon rule brought to the realm. Yes they still had a lot of wars, but they were nothing compared to the wars of the 7 kingdoms of Westeros (pre-conquest) and also the unification under The Iron Throne meant that Highgarden could export it's crops to the rest of Westeros much more, which means more money and population growth. Also less criminals and wars means safer roads for trading and Highgarden happens to be in the crossroads between Oldtown and Dorne with Lannisport, King's Landing, Gulltown and The rest of Westeros (which is the reason that this ancient castle was always one of the most if not the most important seat in Westeros along with Castrly Rock). This whole economy concept is similar to how the EU benefits big countries and strong economies like France and Germany because of it's stability. 

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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Posted (edited)

There's zero evidence that Renly intended to become king until after Ned refused him and he fled King's Landing. If Ned had followed his advice, Ned would have been regent, a thing Renly explicitly urged on to Ned. He even tells Catelyn this. If arrangements were made for Tyrell ties to Robert's children, I really don't see Renly pushing them out of the way. 

Edited by Ran

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

There's zero evidence that Renly intended to become king until after Ned refused him and he fled King's Landing. If Ned had followed his advice, Ned would have been regent, a thing Renly explicitly urged on to Ned. He even tells Catelyn this. If arrangements were made for Tyrell ties to Robert's children, I really don't see Renly pushing them out of the way. 

There is no positive evidence for that, true, but I really don't buy that Renly was pushed into committing the vilest of treasons - a treason that certainly also included the potential murder of his sister-in-law, his brother-in-law, his nephews, his niece, and his own older brother - by Eddard Stark rejecting his offer to help in a coup.

I mean, seriously, how has a man to be wired if this causes him to want to be king?

I laid out that there are many alternative roads Renly could have taken after Ned's rejection 'to save his life' and to maintain his influence in the Seven Kingdoms - starting with making Cersei a similar offer (to help her defeat Ned), to team up with Stannis, to call his banners and those of the Tyrells to offer his help to the warring factions later on, he could have used his military might to set himself up as the regent and Protector for King Joffrey, ousting the bad advisers (Cersei, Tyrion, Tywin, etc.) who running his government, etc.

There was no need for him to crown himself.

And, sure, there is a small chance that Renly's coronation is a spur of the moment idea, something Mace and Loras and Renly came up with when they were in a jolly mood during a hypothetical welcome feast at Highgarden (sort of like nobody planned for Robb to become king).

But what goes against such possibilities in my opinion is the fact that Renly really was ambitious and Renly thought he would be a great king (which is very evident in ACoK) and that he had no issue with just taking the crown by force. A man who cares as little about the law as Renly Baratheon isn't the kind of guy who has many scruples. He does what he wants, not what he should.

Renly's quick action - his proclamation precedes both Stannis' and Robb's - is also making it clear that the man knew what he wanted from the start.

It would be great if George ever elaborated on Renly's desire to be king and the events leading up to it - but as I said repeatedly, Renly is just not a very developed character.

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35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

It is a lot harder getting Lords to support a rebellion with no payoff for them, no incentive for their war. Wars are expensive, the Reach Lords may not have been willing to fund such an endeavour, making enemies of the Lannisters and the young King, in the process without some kind of reward or influence at the end.

 

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1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is a lot harder getting Lords to support a rebellion with no payoff for them, no incentive for their war. Wars are expensive, the Reach Lords may not have been willing to fund such an endeavour, making enemies of the Lannisters and the young King, in the process without some kind of reward or influence at the end.

Well, Renly was the Lord of Storm's End, so he would have had his Stormlords in any case - which certainly are not an insignificant power in their own right.

Loras and Mace he could sell his plans as a means to make Margaery Joffrey's queen. They gather their forces and oust the Lannisters as the power behind Joffrey, making Renly the new regent, Mace the new Hand, and Margaery Joffrey's queen.

That could have worked to. The only rational reason they didn't try to take a road like this - or a road where they backed Stannis in this fashion, marrying Willas to Shireen or trying to replace Selyse with Margaery (Selyse could have been set aside, too) - is that Renly wanted to be king.

And Renly never says he has to be king to protect himself or his interests in ACoK. He makes it clear that he wants to be king, that he was the best king Westeros could hope to get, that he would be much better than Robert and Stannis both, etc.

My case is basically to take the man at his word - which is that he wanted to be king since his royal brother died, no matter what.

Now, it would be very interesting to get a glimpse into Renly's decision-making process, but we don't have that at this point. If George wanted him to have some scruples he put none of those in either AGoT or ACoK. I'm very interested in what Renly and Loras did in the night they left and what they talked about and planned to do during their ride to Storm's End/Highgarden (we don't even know whether they first went to Storm's End and then to Highgarden or whether they directly went to the latter castle), but I don't think we'll ever get more information on that than we already have.

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On 6/23/2019 at 9:47 AM, RYShh said:

We've no evidence that Renly knew about the twincest and the fact that all of Robert's children were bastards from Jaime as we understand from their conversation with Stannis, so if Renly didn't know about the twincest, did he really think he could take down the Lannisters on his own with the help of the Tyrells after Robert's death?

Or did he rely on the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters? Did he believe that he could use that conflict to his own advantage (since the conflict started before Robert's death). I am asking this because without the help of the Starks or the Arryns, it's a too risky plan to just rely on the Tyrells when the Lannisters were holding the KL, and there is Tywin Lannister he needs to deal with. And if he didn't know about the twincest, and then he should've known that Stannis could even side with the Lannisters knowing that Stannis's dutiful character, that could even divide the support from the Baratheons if Stannis sided with the Lannisters against Renly.

As far as I remember, Renly tried to negotiate with Eddard in the KL, but it didn't work. So I am guessing that he actually relied on the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, although he didn't try to reach Robb later (probably because Robb already declared a war against the Lannisters by the time Eddard lost his head, so he probably didn't see any need).

First, let's recognize that if this is "Renly's plan", then it's not going anywhere. Nobody gives away Margaery's hand without Lady Olenna's say so, not even Mace.

Secondly, the Tyrells are not going to marry Margaery to Robert if her children will never ascend to the Iron Throne: that has been their goal for Margaery since her first breath. Her very name, Margaery, with the "ae" digraph so common in Valryian names, was meant to give her an aura of regality. And the ultimate goal of marrying your daughter to a crown prince or a king is to place one of your own on the ultimate seat of power in the realm and then reap the rewards.

So even if Renly does not know of the twincest, I'd wager that Lady Olenna does, and is convinced that she can get Cersei's children disinherited as well.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

First, let's recognize that if this is "Renly's plan", then it's not going anywhere. Nobody gives away Margaery's hand without Lady Olenna's say so, not even Mace.

He quite literally married her to Renly over his mother's objections. The TV show wildly shifts the power dynamics of the Tyrells from what that are in the books. Olenna did not share Mace's ambitions at all.

It's worth noting that most of the references to Mace's intentions, including one from Mace himself, focus of his desire to have Margaery be a queen. He got even more puffed up thinking that as Renly's queen she would have a son who became king, but this does not mean this was his ultimate goal. Your are making some pretty big assumptions.

 

The "ae" thing is definitely your head-canon.

Edited by Ran

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15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

First, let's recognize that if this is "Renly's plan", then it's not going anywhere. Nobody gives away Margaery's hand without Lady Olenna's say so, not even Mace.

What? This is the book forum, there is zero indication that Mace does not have the final say in who his daughter marries.

Olenna, to our knowledge, was against the Tyrell support of Renly.

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Secondly, the Tyrells are not going to marry Margaery to Robert if her children will never ascend to the Iron Throne:

Of course they will. Why would they not want their daughter as the Queen and Royal Grandchildren?

This is getting a little ridiculous, being the second wife of the King, a fairly young King, is still one of the best marriages in the Kingdom, especially with Joffrey already betrothed.

 

 

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After Robert dies we have Renly trying to make a move with Ned to save his own skin (regardless of his ultimate aim). Clearly he felt like his life was in danger from the Lannisters (and that will include Joffrey). Renly spent time in King's Landing and was on the Small Council. I am confident he has an idea of the state of affairs politically.

 

He did have multiple options afterwards. However, given that Robert marrying Marg was plan A, I am going to guess that either Tommen as King (unlikely) or Renly crowning himself were the backups. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

After Robert dies we have Renly trying to make a move with Ned to save his own skin (regardless of his ultimate aim). Clearly he felt like his life was in danger from the Lannisters (and that will include Joffrey). Renly spent time in King's Landing and was on the Small Council. I am confident he has an idea of the state of affairs politically. 

Saving his own skin is the key to his motivations, I am sure.

It is generally assumed that Renly decided to become King and called his banners, in that order. I am not so sure, I think originally he gathered his army to protect himself, perhaps with the aim of deposing the Lannisters as regent to Joffrey or one of his younger siblings.

 

I think he only decided to crown himself after he saw the size of the army that he had gathered and let that go to his head; it is essentially the argument he made to Catelyn, doesn't the person who can command such a mighty force deserve to be king.

 

Edited by Buried Treasure

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On 6/24/2019 at 11:16 AM, Ran said:

He quite literally married her to Renly over his mother's objections. The TV show wildly shifts the power dynamics of the Tyrells from what that are in the books. Olenna did not share Mace's ambitions at all.

It's worth noting that most of the references to Mace's intentions, including one from Mace himself, focus of his desire to have Margaery be a queen. He got even more puffed up thinking that as Renly's queen she would have a son who became king, but this does not mean this was his ultimate goal. Your are making some pretty big assumptions.

 

The "ae" thing is definitely your head-canon.

Sorry, I don't buy that. According to Littlefinger, it was Lady Olenna who asked the pointed questions regarding the marriage to Joffrey while Mace dithered and blustered. It was also Lady Olenna who squelched the plan to marry Cersei to Willas, after Mace had already agreed to it, and it was she who made the Willas offer to Sansa, not Mace. We also see first-hand, at Tywin's funeral, how she bosses her son around and he just acquiesces to whatever she says. I can't imagine any real lord like Tywin or Ned allowing his mother to treat him like that in front of their sovereign.

Make no mistake: Lady O is the one who calls the shots in Highgarden, not Mace. She is the one playing the Game of Thrones.

There are only three non-Targaryen characters in the book who have ae in their names: Margaery, Petyr Baelish and Shae. Only one of them is a highborn maid; born in 283, just a year or two after Aegon VI.

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On 6/24/2019 at 11:19 AM, Bernie Mac said:

What? This is the book forum, there is zero indication that Mace does not have the final say in who his daughter marries.

Olenna, to our knowledge, was against the Tyrell support of Renly.

Of course they will. Why would they not want their daughter as the Queen and Royal Grandchildren?

This is getting a little ridiculous, being the second wife of the King, a fairly young King, is still one of the best marriages in the Kingdom, especially with Joffrey already betrothed.

There is every indication that Lady O is in charge and zero indication that Mace is:

Quote

"Loras?" Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. "Don't be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn't they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas. He is a bit old for you, to be sure, but a dear boy for all that. Not the least bit oafish, and heir to Highgarden besides.

Here she is with the offer that will make Sansa Lady of Highgarden, and Mace is nowhere in sight, nor has he ever even met Sansa as far as we can tell.

Then:

Quote

Lord Tywin cut him off. "Mace Tyrell has refused my offer to marry Cersei to his heir Willas."

"Refused our sweet Cersei?" That put Tyrion in a much better mood.

"When I first broached the match to him, Lord Tyrell seemed well enough disposed. A day later, all was changed. The old woman's work. She hectors her son unmercifully. Varys claims she told him that your sister was too old and too used for this precious one-legged grandson of hers."

Lord Mace Tyrell, overruled by his mother.

And then:

Quote

"The old woman was not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature."

snip

"Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras's inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract."

The old woman asks the pointed questions while Mace dithers about. And then we see how easy it is to manipulate Mace.

And finally:

Quote

A flush crept up Tyrell's thick neck. "This . . . your lord father assured me . . ." He began to sputter.

Then his mother appeared and slid her arm through his own. "It would seem that Lord Tywin did not share his plans with our regent. I can't imagine why. Still, there 'tis no use hectoring Her Grace. She is quite right, you must write Lord Leyton before Garth boards a ship. You know the sea will sicken him and make his farting worse."

Here we have Olenna stepping in to tell Mace what's what, that Cersei is right and he is wrong and he needs to just accept that. Can you imagine any other high lord, from Ned to Doran to Tywin, allowing himself to be treated this way by their mother in front of their sovereign?

There is also the story of Ashford, where Mace took the credit but Tarly won the battle. In virtually every instance, we see Mace doing nothing while everything of consequence is handled by the competent people around him.

So sure, officially Mace makes the decision, but that is just for appearance's sake -- an image that Lady O must maintain in front of Sansa when she acts like the Renly marriage was all Mace's doing. The reality is that Lady Olenna is calling the shots and Highgarden, and Mace does not do anything that his mother does not want him to do.

Having Margaery as the second wife with children who are fourth, fifth and sixth in line for the throne is not good enough for Lady Olenna. Her objective is to secure power for Highgarden, not give Margaery a pretty good position at court. Lady O is playing the Game of Thrones; the throne is the prize, not Margaery's status.

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12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is every indication that Lady O is in charge and zero indication that Mace is:

No, there is not.

"She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother"

Olenna was against the rebellion, her son overruled her. Clearly Olenna was not enamoured with the Joffrey-Margaery wedding and it seems Mace ignored her on that one as well.

You are mistaking talking down about her son with her being in charge of him, she is not. Obedient sons are less likely to be called 'oafs'.

I think you are confusing the books with the show on this one. I liked the shows interpretation, Rigg was an excellent actress and a great foil to Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei in her scenes but the Olenna in the books is not that character, nor is she a Genna Lannister who sits in on war councils despite her gender and orders her husband about.

Olenna is the matriarch of the House and the women of House Tyrell are seen as accomplished and able, but their roles are to influence the males in their House rather than to command.

Quote

Here she is with the offer that will make Sansa Lady of Highgarden, and Mace is nowhere in sight, nor has he ever even met Sansa as far as we can tell.

Why would Mace need to be there? The whole point of that meeting was to make Sansa feel comfortable, relaxed and to show them to be different to the scheming Lannisters. It was a meeting of sisterhood and it was a meeting to try and keep the Lannisters out of the loop.

"Lord Tyrell will not broach the matter of the Stark girl until after Joffrey's wedding. If Sansa is wed before that, how can he take offense, when he gave us no hint of his intentions?"    

Tywin does not think he is dealing with Olenna. Olenna is in the capital to arrange the wedding, such matters are not likely to be handled by the likes of Tywin and Mace, the two most powerful Lords in the realm.

And it should be noted that Olenna leaves the capital after the wedding. If she was in charge of the Tyrells she'd remain, like she does in the show, in the books.

Quote

Then:

Lord Mace Tyrell, overruled by his mother.

Influenced, not necessarily overruled. It was still Mace's call to make. But him being influenced by his advisor's is normal. Jon Snow does not command Stannis yet he was still able to change Stannis' mind about attacking the Dreadfort.

 

Quote

And then:

Again, that is influence, rather than command. She's not made the decision, she has convinced Mace it was the right decision and his decision all along.

Olenna is smarter than her son, no one is denying this, but Mace is in charge and has the final say. That does not mean others, including his mother, can convince him to change his mind, but ultimately it is his mind to change.

Had Olenna been in charge she's not need to influence, she'd command.

Quote

The old woman asks the pointed questions while Mace dithers about. And then we see how easy it is to manipulate Mace.

Certainly. How does contradict my point?

We don't know how easy it was to manipulate Mace as we have no idea how attached he was to his original opinion. On some matters she may be able to change his mind and others, such as crowning Renly, she clearly is not.

Being able to influence some decisions does not mean you are in charge.

Quote

 

Here we have Olenna stepping in to tell Mace what's what, that Cersei is right and he is wrong and he needs to just accept that. Can you imagine any other high lord, from Ned to Doran to Tywin, allowing himself to be treated this way by their mother in front of their sovereign?

Well yeah, Doran for a start. She was the ruler of Dorne until she died.

We have zero knowledge on the relationship Ned or Tywin had with their mother. How exactly do you think he is being treated in that paragraph? She stepped into stop him from making a scene.

But once again you are mistaking Olenna being smarter than her son and recognizing that he had been politically out manoeuvred to her being in control of him.

Quote

There is also the story of Ashford, where Mace took the credit but Tarly won the battle. In virtually every instance, we see Mace doing nothing while everything of consequence is handled by the competent people around him.

Of course he took the credit, it was his army, his Van that beat Robert. This is no different to all commanders in the series. Twyin's being congratulated for the Mountain's victory at Duskendale.

When Mace's army gets a victory he is going to be acknowledged for it. Tyrion's actually quite the hypocrite in this situation, he's not telling others of the contributions of his subordinates at the Battle of Backwater, in his mind he saved the city.

 

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So sure, officially Mace makes the decision, but that is just for appearance's sake

Not at all. The quotes you have used in this reply contradict that. It is not for appearance sakes, it is how it is.

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-- an image that Lady O must maintain in front of Sansa when she acts like the Renly marriage was all Mace's doing.

Evidence from the books that suggests that she was in favour of that marriage?

Otherwise this is just one baseless claim used as 'evidence' to support another baseless claim.

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The reality is that Lady Olenna is calling the shots and Highgarden, and Mace does not do anything that his mother does not want him to do.

That is not the reality, the reality is that she is able to influence some decisions and not others.

 

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Having Margaery as the second wife with children who are fourth, fifth and sixth in line for the throne is not good enough for Lady Olenna.

Is it not? Come on, not to be rude but you've pulled that out of your ass. There is zero evidence for this.

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Her objective is to secure power for Highgarden,

Which being Queen does, even being a long term paramour to the King does.

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not give Margaery a pretty good position at court. Lady O is playing the Game of Thrones; the throne is the prize, not Margaery's status.

This is ridiculous. There is not just one prize.

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7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, there is not.

"She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate." The old woman turned back to Sansa. "It's treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother"

Olenna was against the rebellion, her son overruled her. Clearly Olenna was not enamoured with the Joffrey-Margaery wedding and it seems Mace ignored her on that one as well.

You are mistaking talking down about her son with her being in charge of him, she is not. Obedient sons are less likely to be called 'oafs'.

I think you are confusing the books with the show on this one. I liked the shows interpretation, Rigg was an excellent actress and a great foil to Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei in her scenes but the Olenna in the books is not that character, nor is she a Genna Lannister who sits in on war councils despite her gender and orders her husband about.

Olenna is the matriarch of the House and the women of House Tyrell are seen as accomplished and able, but their roles are to influence the males in their House rather than to command.

Why would Mace need to be there? The whole point of that meeting was to make Sansa feel comfortable, relaxed and to show them to be different to the scheming Lannisters. It was a meeting of sisterhood and it was a meeting to try and keep the Lannisters out of the loop.

"Lord Tyrell will not broach the matter of the Stark girl until after Joffrey's wedding. If Sansa is wed before that, how can he take offense, when he gave us no hint of his intentions?"    

Tywin does not think he is dealing with Olenna. Olenna is in the capital to arrange the wedding, such matters are not likely to be handled by the likes of Tywin and Mace, the two most powerful Lords in the realm.

And it should be noted that Olenna leaves the capital after the wedding. If she was in charge of the Tyrells she'd remain, like she does in the show, in the books.

Influenced, not necessarily overruled. It was still Mace's call to make. But him being influenced by his advisor's is normal. Jon Snow does not command Stannis yet he was still able to change Stannis' mind about attacking the Dreadfort.

 

Again, that is influence, rather than command. She's not made the decision, she has convinced Mace it was the right decision and his decision all along.

Olenna is smarter than her son, no one is denying this, but Mace is in charge and has the final say. That does not mean others, including his mother, can convince him to change his mind, but ultimately it is his mind to change.

Had Olenna been in charge she's not need to influence, she'd command.

Certainly. How does contradict my point?

We don't know how easy it was to manipulate Mace as we have no idea how attached he was to his original opinion. On some matters she may be able to change his mind and others, such as crowning Renly, she clearly is not.

Being able to influence some decisions does not mean you are in charge.

Well yeah, Doran for a start. She was the ruler of Dorne until she died.

We have zero knowledge on the relationship Ned or Tywin had with their mother. How exactly do you think he is being treated in that paragraph? She stepped into stop him from making a scene.

But once again you are mistaking Olenna being smarter than her son and recognizing that he had been politically out manoeuvred to her being in control of him.

Of course he took the credit, it was his army, his Van that beat Robert. This is no different to all commanders in the series. Twyin's being congratulated for the Mountain's victory at Duskendale.

When Mace's army gets a victory he is going to be acknowledged for it. Tyrion's actually quite the hypocrite in this situation, he's not telling others of the contributions of his subordinates at the Battle of Backwater, in his mind he saved the city.

 

Not at all. The quotes you have used in this reply contradict that. It is not for appearance sakes, it is how it is.

Evidence from the books that suggests that she was in favour of that marriage?

Otherwise this is just one baseless claim used as 'evidence' to support another baseless claim.

That is not the reality, the reality is that she is able to influence some decisions and not others.

 

Is it not? Come on, not to be rude but you've pulled that out of your ass. There is zero evidence for this.

Which being Queen does, even being a long term paramour to the King does.

This is ridiculous. There is not just one prize.

Lady Olenna is lying, plain and simple. The plan went bust, so now she gets to lay it all on Mace's lap. Answer me this: if Mace is the iron-fisted ruler in Highgarden, then why is Lady O calling him an oaf and Lord Puff fish in front of his wife and daughter, as well as a perfect stranger? Why, at the end of the conversation, do we get this exchange:

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"But the queen," Sansa went on, "she won't let me go . . ."

"She will. Without Highgarden, the Lannisters have no hope of keeping Joffrey on his throne. If my son the lord oaf asks, she will have no choice but to grant his request."

"Will he?" asked Sansa. "Will he ask?"

Lady Olenna frowned. "I see no need to give him a choice. Of course, he has no hint of our true purpose."

Lady O is giving Mace no choice in the matter. Sansa will go to Highgarden and will wed Willas, without his leave or his knowledge -- something that would be utterly unthinkable if Mace were truly in charge.

There is nothing in the books to suggest that Mace is anything but the incompetent, malleable oaf that Lady O describes. You would have us believe that the whole Willas plot was his doing, and yet at Sansa's wedding to Tyrion, he shows absolutely no sign that his plan was foiled, just a flushed sweaty face during a simple dance.

We also see Mace's buffoonery virtually every time we see him. Beside the encounter with Cersei at the funeral, we have him at the small council meeting:

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"Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? No, it's plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton's once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Callien. That is what I would do."

Tyrion had to bite his tongue on that. Robb Stark had won more battles in a year than the Lord of Highgarden had in twenty.

snip, after urging Tywin to give Balon Greyjoy the north:

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northment whilst we finish Stannis.

Lord Tywin's face gave no hint as to his feelings. "There is Lysa Arryn to deal with as well. Jon Arryn's widow, Hoster Tully's daughter, Catelyn Stark's sister . . . whose husband was conspiring with Stannis Baratheon at the time of his death.

"Oh," said Mace Tyrell cheerfully," women have no stomach for war. Let her be, I say, she's not like to trouble us."

Later in the same meeting, Mace puts up a stink about Dornish crossing his lands, but in the end he caves, just like he always does.

So sorry, but Lady O's tale about how Mace insisted on Renly and then insisted on Joffrey is pure fiction. It flies in the face of what numerous characters describe of him, and of what we can see with our own eyes. In the books, Mace Tyrell is not calling the shots in Highgarden, Lady Olenna is.

 

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