Police - a thin blue line, a wad of cash and scary guns

[ants]

Couldn't find the last police thread, so started a new one.  Stupid search function.  I'm sure there must be one, its not like the police shootings have stopped.

Came in to post this article, which was linked to in the UK politics thread:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/the-shocking-truth-about-police-corruption-in-britain/

Is referencing two reports produced by different government bodies into the police performance in the UK.  Which is quite bad.  Hounding of whistleblowers.  More saying they don't feel protected to report abuses.  More police abusing their power for sexual gratification.  And more police officers dealing drugs....

[BigFatCoward]

73 mps officers in 2 years is a phenomenally small number as a %, the rest makes pretty grim reading. 

There is a school of thought that constant erosion of pay and working conditions leads to corruption but I'm not sure I buy that, you are either a scumbag or you aren't, money doesn't come into it. 

That's not to say every day at work I dont consider how much less I'm paid due to austerity than I would be if inflationary pay rises had been in place. 

But I think it's the growing contempt we feel from society as a whole which is more likely driving people to corruption 'they fucking hate us, why should we give a shit about them' sort of mindset. 

[HexMachina]

26 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

73 mps officers in 2 years is a phenomenally small number as a %, the rest makes pretty grim reading. 

There is a school of thought that constant erosion of pay and working conditions leads to corruption but I'm not sure I buy that, you are either a scumbag or you aren't, money doesn't come into it. 

That's not to say every day at work I dont consider how much less I'm paid due to austerity than I would be if inflationary pay rises had been in place. 

But I think it's the growing contempt we feel from society as a whole which is more likely driving people to corruption 'they fucking hate us, why should we give a shit about them' sort of mindset. 

I do sympathise with you and the many many other police officers who simply do the best job they can under increasingly awful conditions following various cuts, austerity etc. And i do have a lot of respect for those of you who actually do work so hard without dipping into all of these corrupt and shady dealings.

but just wrt your last point, is that not a bit of a chicken and the egg situation? What came first, the corruption or the public perception? I absolutely agree that there is growing distrust, lack of respect and in some cases yes, open contempt for the police by the public. But I think for me personally, its hard to make the call of whether that perception has led to the increase in corruption etc. Or vice versa. 

But then again i think that ties to your other point about pay and working conditions. You are either a scumbag or you aren’t, the fact people perceive your profession as such shouldnt fundamentally change who you are as a person

 

 

eta: just to stress i really do sympathise with the cuts and working conditions you face. During my own ill-fated near career with the police i got  to see first-hand just how strained staff and resources are. Spoke to a lovely officer when he was inducting us all and showing us round the station and ward. The stress and strain he was feeling after 15 years in the job was painfully obvious

[Spockydog]

The rot probably began with Thatcher. She turned the police into a thuggish tool of state. Oppression and corruption ftw. Thank fuck they don't have guns.

 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

The rot probably began with Thatcher. She turned the police into a thuggish tool of state. Oppression and corruption ftw. Thank fuck they don't have guns.

 

Except, you know, all those cases of police corruption before Thatcher, when it was probably much worse.

[Jen'ari]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I do sympathise with you and the many many other police officers who simply do the best job they can under increasingly awful conditions following various cuts, austerity etc. And i do have a lot of respect for those of you who actually do work so hard without dipping into all of these corrupt and shady dealings.

but just wrt your last point, is that not a bit of a chicken and the egg situation? What came first, the corruption or the public perception? I absolutely agree that there is growing distrust, lack of respect and in some cases yes, open contempt for the police by the public. But I think for me personally, its hard to make the call of whether that perception has led to the increase in corruption etc. Or vice versa. 

But then again i think that ties to your other point about pay and working conditions. You are either a scumbag or you aren’t, the fact people perceive your profession as such shouldnt fundamentally change who you are as a person

 

 

eta: just to stress i really do sympathise with the cuts and working conditions you face. During my own ill-fated near career with the police i got  to see first-hand just how strained staff and resources are. Spoke to a lovely officer when he was inducting us all and showing us round the station and ward. The stress and strain he was feeling after 15 years in the job was painfully obvious

It doesn’t sound like it was always this way though, a friend of my grans is a retired Met officer now in his late 70s and speaks quite highly of his time in the force, as well as the pension etc, now it sounds like a completely thankless task with poor pay and high risk.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Some posts have been deleted.  In previous iterations of this thread the rule has been that if you have a specific example or issue feel free to post it, but if all you are going to do is post comments about police in general then it will be bans and warnings.

[/MOD] 

[Heartofice]

I'd be interested in how perception of the police in the UK especially has changed over time. I think in general the police are well received here and all my personal dealings with them have been friendly and professional. 

However I do get the sense that there is a lot of built of resentment towards the force that maybe wasn't there in the past and this perception that they are 'Thuggish tools of the state' that seems to have grown out of somewhere. I don't know if BFC on here has noticed any change over time or not

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Except, you know, all those cases of police corruption before Thatcher, when it was probably much worse.

Levels of police corruption were certainly worse pre PACE.  Compared to almost anywhere else, the police and judiciary are pretty clean in the UK.

[BigFatCoward]

20 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

It doesn’t sound like it was always this way though, a friend of my grans is a retired Met officer now in his late 70s and speaks quite highly of his time in the force, as well as the pension etc, now it sounds like a completely thankless task with poor pay and high risk.

I wouldn't say its poor pay or conditions exactly. It's just a lot worse than it was, or what I signed up for. Eg a lot of us joined for the security and the pension, not because we expected to be rich.

I was supposed to retire at 55 (not getting much sympathy here am i). Now i have to work until 60, i have to pay more and i get less out. Combined with austerity meaning we get paid a fuck load less each month. That being said it's still a pretty amazing job, with the variation of roles being a particular benefit. Not sure I'd encourage my children to do it though.

 

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

However I do get the sense that there is a lot of built of resentment towards the force that maybe wasn't there in the past and this perception that they are 'Thuggish tools of the state' that seems to have grown out of somewhere. I don't know if BFC on here has noticed any change over time or not

I dont get the feeling the public dislike us for being 'tools if the state's, I think they just think we are fucking shite.

If we were tools of the state I'd at least expect us to be better compensated. 

The public have every right to be resentful, we provide a frankly terrible service. Its noticeably different than it was 10 years ago, the number of officers we parade is shocking, all we do is respond (way to slowly). We dont target anything the way we should.  

I am supposed to have 57 staff targeting young people (diverting them away from crime). I have fewer than 30. 

[Spockydog]

I just read that article again, and it basically blames the senior officers for allowing this culture of corruption to develop.

Quote

One of the consequences of a heavy-handed police leadership stretching the law and using their power to bully and intimidate is that rank and file officers are encouraged to think they can do the same. Once ordinary officers start abusing power, a culture of semi-criminal behaviour becomes normal and whistleblowers are treated not as honourable but as traitors.

As BFC frequently enjoys reminding us that he is a Senior Police Officer, I'd be interested to know what he has done, personally, to combat this.

 

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

I just read that article again, and it basically blames the senior officers for allowing this culture of corruption to develop.

As BFC frequently enjoys reminding us that he is a Senior Police Officer, I'd be interested to know what he has done, personally, to combat this.

 

I'm middle management mate. 

I have to say that the biggest impediment to improving the police in my experience is the systems for removing incompetent officers. It is basically impossible to get rid of someone, no matter how inept, unless they commit a criminal offence. 

 

[Spockydog]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

I'm middle management mate. 

If you don't mind me asking, what rank is that? 

[Heartofice]

Just now, BigFatCoward said:

I have to say that the biggest impediment to improving the police in my experience is the systems for removing incompetent officers. It is basically impossible to get rid of someone, no matter how inept, unless they commit a criminal offence. 

This is pretty common in a lot of private sector jobs too tbh. 

Surely those officers had to be hired in the first place too though, they were probably incompetent then as well. I'm assuming there a shortage and they just take on anyone.

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Spockydog said:

If you don't mind me asking, what rank is that? 

Inspector. In my opinion it's the last rank you can still say 'I'm a policeman' and be telling the truth. 

[Jen'ari]

9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

I wouldn't say its poor pay or conditions exactly. It's just a lot worse than it was, or what I signed up for. Eg a lot of us joined for the security and the pension, not because we expected to be rich.

I was supposed to retire at 55 (not getting much sympathy here am i). Now i have to work until 60, i have to pay more and i get less out. Combined with austerity meaning we get paid a fuck load less each month. That being said it's still a pretty amazing job, with the variation of roles being a particular benefit. Not sure I'd encourage my children to do it though.

 

I dont get the feeling the public dislike us for being 'tools if the state's, I think they just think we are fucking shite.

If we were tools of the state I'd at least expect us to be better compensated. 

The public have every right to be resentful, we provide a frankly terrible service. Its noticeably different than it was 10 years ago, the number of officers we parade is shocking, all we do is respond (way to slowly). We dont target anything the way we should.  

I am supposed to have 57 staff targeting young people (diverting them away from crime). I have fewer than 30. 

From what I’ve gathered from my grans friend the pension was quite a perk of the job, as were various other things like sports clubs etc.

For what it’s worth I think it must still be an interesting career but for the level of hostility experienced for doing it, not to mention having to deal with knife wielding,acid throwing thugs-in London especially, it’s not a career I’d want my daughter to go into.

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Surely those officers had to be hired in the first place too though, they were probably incompetent then as well. I'm assuming there a shortage and they just take on anyone.

This is one of the great unanswered questions we have 'who interviewed this fucking idiot and decided they would make a decent copper'?

[Tears of Lys]

Maybe hiring by committee, where it's a consensus and nobody takes the blame if someone doesn't work out?

Who DOES do the hiring?

[maarsen]

Public service austerity is not limited to police, and the same results are evident where ever it happens. I am a public service worker also and every time there is a spasm of austerity to 'solve'  problems, why, things just get worse.  Take away some one's incentive to do their job well and we wonder why it isn't being done well any more.

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, Tears of Lys said:

Maybe hiring by committee, where it's a consensus and nobody takes the blame if someone doesn't work out?

Who DOES do the hiring?

I'm not sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a private company getting paid for every one who got through, there's no other explanation for some of these morons.

I once saw someone carry out a strip search and they still didn't find the whole house brick in the suspects pocket, how is that even possible?

I know when I joined on my assessment day there were 20 of us and 3 or 4 got through. There is no way there is that level of rejection now. 

Then again, starting at 23 grand in London, what do they expect to get?