Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[alienarea]

I hope that BookJon is brought back by the wildling witch (Morna?) and not Melisandre. That would make a lot more sense, also for him becoming the new Night's King and leader of the White Walkers.

As I pointed out years ago, a White Walker is basically a Ghost in the Snow.

[asongofheresy]

But what if Jon Snow is really dead? How do people react to that? And is there a reason Ygritte said Jon has an evil name? 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

But what if Jon Snow is really dead? How do people react to that? And is there a reason Ygritte said Jon has an evil name? 

The wildlings speak about some of the reasons why they got closed off by the Wall:

Quote

 

“This land belongs to the Watch,” Jon said.

  Her nostrils flared. “No one lives here.”

  “Your raiders drove them off.”

  “They were cowards, then. If they wanted the land they should have stayed and fought.”

  “Maybe they were tired of fighting. Tired of barring their doors every night and wondering if Rattleshirt or someone like him would break them down to carry off their wives. Tired of having their harvests stolen, and any valuables they might have. It’s easier to move beyond the reach of raiders.” But if the Wall should fail, all the north will lie within the reach of raiders.

  “You know nothing, Jon Snow. Daughters are taken, not wives. You’re the ones who steal. You took the whole world, and built the Wall t’ keep the free folk out.”

  Did we? Sometimes Jon forgot how wild she was, and then she would remind him. “How did that happen?”

  “The gods made the earth for all men t’ share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs. My trees, they said, you can’t eat them apples. My stream, you can’t fish here. My wood, you’re not t’ hunt. My earth, my water, my castle, my daughter, keep your hands away or I’ll chop ’em off, but maybe if you kneel t’ me I’ll let you have a sniff. You call us thieves, but at least a thief has t’ be brave and clever and quick. A kneeler only has t’ kneel.”

<snip>

“And men can’t own the land no more’n they can own the sea or the sky. You kneelers think you do, but Mance is going t’ show you different.”

 

 

 

What seems evident about this passage is that the ancestors of the wildlings refused to kneel to a man who defeated them using steel swords and declared himself king, which plays into the theory that Winterfell was taken by conquest and the losers were locked behind the Wall for not "bending the knee" - which is more than what the actual act of kneeling requires. They had to agree to a feudal system and get permission from the lord to hunt, fish, or gather resources. It's quite possible that the name of that man was also a Jon Snow - perhaps even the bastard son of a man they used to look to as a leader.

[asongofheresy]

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The wildlings speak about some of the reasons why they got closed off by the Wall:

What seems evident about this passage is that the ancestors of the wildlings refused to kneel to a man who defeated them using steel swords and declared himself king, which plays into the theory that Winterfell was taken by conquest and the losers were locked behind the Wall for not "bending the knee" - which is more than what the actual act of kneeling requires. They had to agree to a feudal system and get permission from the lord to hunt, fish, or gather resources. It's quite possible that the name of that man was also a Jon Snow - perhaps even the bastard son of a man they used to look to as a leader.

Possible, reminds me the Craster is a Casterly theory where one house lost their power to a bastard and had to flee to North, Casterlys were driven out because of Lann, L and J can be mirror letters Jon Snow/Lon Snow, Jyanna/Lyanna as examples maybe. Jann the bastard of Rowan heh. 

[JNR]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

He came across a large but undeniably dead bird, studied it from various angles, sniffed at it - and then pissed on it

I can only imagine what he would do to

On 6/24/2019 at 3:54 PM, Black Crow said:

doomed people

...like show fans.

[Brad Stark]

On 6/25/2019 at 2:04 PM, Black Crow said:

My ambitions in raising Jon Snow's fate, were rather more modest than Feather's...

My point is that while death is commonly accounted a bad thing, especially when it involves a major character, in this case it isn't.

As we discussed in the previous thread I think that there are very good grounds for thinking that what makes the Starks special is that in partnership with their direwolves they are exceptionally powerful wargs, capable of flying free and ultimately leading us to the white walkers. My present argument is that it was necessary for him to die in order to unlock this secret

I really like this.   But I don't think GRRM will do it, too much magic for the series. 

And regardless of the mummers version, we have too many hints this is a love story with a tragic ending.   This doesn't have to involve Jon and Dany, but it will be two major POV characters that were young in agot.  Both Jon and Dany are good candidates.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

I hope that BookJon is brought back by the wildling witch (Morna?) and not Melisandre. That would make a lot more sense, also for him becoming the new Night's King and leader of the White Walkers.

As I pointed out years ago, a White Walker is basically a Ghost in the Snow.

Well I certainly agree that Jon isn't going to be brought back by the red witch, despite the fond imaginings of the Azor Ahai conspiracists - and the Mummers.

However, I'm not inclined to finger Mona or Val either, but rather look to Ghost and Jon himself

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I really like this.   But I don't think GRRM will do it, too much magic for the series. 

 

Aux contraire, this is magic which is already in the series and entirely consistent with the way its already going

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

I love Jon as the Night's King reborn. It's the type of transformation that I can see with there being a price for life, a price for coming back from death. 

But i also like Black Crow's idea even more.

So from hence forth I declare Stannis The One True Night's King reborn!

 

P.S. If Jon is rezzed by Mel, wouldn't he be a fire wight? Opposite of the original Night's King possibly being an ice wight.

P.S.S. I like the idea of Mel going off script and burning Shireen to rez Jon.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:19 PM, Black Crow said:

Absolutely, which is why I argued at the time that there had to be an escape clause, and where we are now is my interpretation of that escape clause - and its implications and consequences

What was your earlier interpretation?

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

10 hours ago, alienarea said:

I hope that BookJon is brought back by the wildling witch (Morna?) and not Melisandre. That would make a lot more sense, also for him becoming the new Night's King and leader of the White Walkers.

As I pointed out years ago, a White Walker is basically a Ghost in the Snow.

This would make more sense. Jon coming back as an ice wight. His story is starkly lacking when it comes to Fire.

 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Aux contraire, this is magic which is already in the series and entirely consistent with the way its already going

Plus GRRM has stated that magic will increase in the series...it gradually has been already. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I love Jon as the Night's King reborn. It's the type of transformation that I can see with there being a price for life, a price for coming back from death. 

But i also like Black Crow's idea even more.

So from hence forth I declare Stannis The One True Night's King reborn!

 

P.S. If Jon is rezzed by Mel, wouldn't he be a fire wight? Opposite of the original Night's King possibly being an ice wight.

P.S.S. I like the idea of Mel going off script and burning Shireen to rez Jon.

The original Nights King was a Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch so in my opinion this disqualifies Stannis, but I have an alternate proposal for Stannis. He is like King Sherritt reborn, the king who called down his curse upon the Andals from the Nightfort. Recall that Stannis has claimed the Nightfort as his castle.

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well I certainly agree that Jon isn't going to be brought back by the red witch, despite the fond imaginings of the Azor Ahai conspiracists - and the Mummers.

How do you even know he's dead?

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, JNR said:

How do you even know he's dead?

Its a reasonable interpretation of the text, but also, in answering Aegon and Feather as well I think that his death is a necessary one. Having Mel resurrect him, as demonstrated by Thoros, or say Val putting Ice [rather than Fire] inside him per Adara, would be akin to his death and resurrection, being a bit of a yawn; the magical equivalent of bandaging him up and kissing the sore bits better. It will mean his death [or grievous wounding] will be nothing more than an inconvenience. Its all been done before.

On the other hand my scenario [and I didn't have an alternative to the Varamyr trap before - I just figured that there had to be one] pulls the story forward, explores warging and the Starks and points the way to solving the Stark version Musgrave Ritual - none of which will happen is we get a Thros style resurrection.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

On the other hand my scenario [and I didn't have an alternative to the Varamyr trap before - I just figured that there had to be one] pulls the story forward, explores warging and the Starks and points the way to solving the Stark version Musgrave Ritual - none of which will happen is we get a Thros style resurrection.

Well, I'm not sure what would really be revealed about the historical Starks in this way, since we already know they were powerful skinchangers.... or what would be served narratively by having Jon spend one or more chapters wandering around as Ghost before suddenly finding an escape hatch (never suggested to exist in canon).

On the other hand, I am sure that GRRM has written literally dozens of chapters in ASOIAF that end in a cliffhanger way.  He loves to make the POV character seem dead, just like Jon... but then it turns out that character is not, in fact, dead. 

It's the single most common trick he pulls.  Snowfyre actually started a whole thread about that rather shamelessly recycled technique of GRRM's -- interested parties can find it here.  It's a long, long list.

However, if Jon is really dead.  I think we can all agree he's coming back, and it's not going to happen in the half-assed way it did on the show -- with random chanting and finger-crossing.  GRRM has more respect for continuity than that.

[SirArthur]

11 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

So from hence forth I declare Stannis The One True Night's King reborn!

So ... if you use these words .... there is at least another one ? Is he reborn, false or something else ? 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

50 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I'm not sure what would really be revealed about the historical Starks in this way, since we already know they were powerful skinchangers.... or what would be served narratively by having Jon spend one or more chapters wandering around as Ghost before suddenly finding an escape hatch (never suggested to exist in canon).

On the other hand, I am sure that GRRM has written literally dozens of chapters in ASOIAF that end in a cliffhanger way.  He loves to make the POV character seem dead, just like Jon... but then it turns out that character is not, in fact, dead. 

It's the single most common trick he pulls.  Snowfyre actually started a whole thread about that rather shamelessly recycled technique of GRRM's -- interested parties can find it here.  It's a long, long list.

However, if Jon is really dead.  I think we can all agree he's coming back, and it's not going to happen in the half-assed way it did on the show -- with random chanting and finger-crossing.  GRRM has more respect for continuity than that.

His axe took her in the back of the head.

 

P.S. I believe that if Jon dies (highly likely given his wounds, they may not be done stabbing him, etc) that his resurrection will be more than taking a few Advil. It's what sells me on Jon being the Night's King reborn. It feels natural, to me, that his death and resurrection would result in Jon being an undead-ish, darker character that ends up doing some really dark stuff.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, I'm not sure what would really be revealed about the historical Starks in this way, since we already know they were powerful skinchangers.... or what would be served narratively by having Jon spend one or more chapters wandering around as Ghost before suddenly finding an escape hatch (never suggested to exist in canon).

Do we know the Starks were "powerful skinchangers," or are we just filling in the blanks based on the current generation and the wolf statues?

I don't think the "escape hatch" lacks textual foreshadowing, either. No less a figure than Aemon Targaryen (the older one) attributes his death, at least in part, to leaving the Wall. "Cold preserves." 

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

However, if Jon is really dead.  I think we can all agree he's coming back, and it's not going to happen in the half-assed way it did on the show -- with random chanting and finger-crossing.  GRRM has more respect for continuity than that.

I like Black Crow's theory because I am also partial to Jon having some sort of magical Stark family destiny, as befits a high fantasy novel. Certainly his death and resultant contact with the "spirit world" (generally represented by the WeirNet) gives him an opportunity to learn things he might not otherwise. A visit to the crypts, seeing through the eyes of the Winterfell heart tree, that sort of thing. 

Where do you think he'll go, once alive again? Winterfell, to continue his pursuit of Starkness? Further North, to join Bran? Or will he remain at the Wall, status quo ante?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I like Black Crow's theory because I am also partial to Jon having some sort of magical Stark family destiny, as befits a high fantasy novel. Certainly his death and resultant contact with the "spirit world" (generally represented by the WeirNet) gives him an opportunity to learn things he might not otherwise. A visit to the crypts, seeing through the eyes of the Winterfell heart tree, that sort of thing. 

Where do you think he'll go, once alive again? Winterfell, to continue his pursuit of Starkness? Further North, to join Bran? Or will he remain at the Wall, status quo ante?

The ending of the Mummers Farce suggests that he may move northwards - rather than sit on the Iron Throne per the R+L=J fantasy, and there are a couple of clues pointing in that direction, albeit thin ones.

First, as I've said the theory if correct allows him to either return to his own body or become one of the white walkers. I think the latter will be a step too far for readers and see the Coldhands option as more likely. Coldhands you'll recall reckoned he couldn't return to the realms of men, although I've no doubt that if relevant we'll find more about that.

Secondly, although I no longer have a copy to hand, there was that supposed synopsis for the Winds of Winter which spoke of individuals needing to make perilous journeys into the hearts of Ice and Fire. The authenticity has been doubted of course and I strongly suspect that if it is real that journey was in fact Bran's trek into the Heart of Darkness. However if a journey into the Land of Always Winter really is required, then who better than a dead man who can't feel the cold