Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[JNR]

19 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

It is possible GRRM himself doesn't know, but that isn't an argument against the wolf going with Gared. 

Well, of course it is.  All Gared had to do, to get south of the Wall, was show up at a Wall castle with a tunnel, just as he always would, walk through... and then abandon his duties, heading south.  Which I'm sure is exactly what he did.

Now picture that same process, except this time Gared has a pregnant direwolf on a leash.   Explain to me how in the world he manages to get that done.   "Well, boys, I brought back a pet.."

This is why people have instead said that he used the Black Gate, but there isn't a faint shadow of a reason to believe he ever heard of that in his life...

Actually, the first chapter was, we know, writtten long before GRRM had even come up with most of his world.  He wrote it in a blind heat of inspiration and I doubt we'll ever get explanations for some of its contents, for that reason.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All six children were sent direwolf pups.

Well, all six children got direwolf pups. 

The concept they were sent -- that is really a dubious matter.

The idea there is some entity in GRRM's fiction capable of arranging for a direwolf to become pregnant with six pups, that corresponded to the six kids, right down to one looking different from the others and wandering off alone, and also somehow arranged  for Jon to find that one, and for the Starks to find them (not anyone else), and who also somehow knew Ned wouldn't kill them all (as he very nearly did) seems... extremely improbable, to say the least. 

Bloodraven is sometimes cited as having "sent" the pups, but he's shown no remote such power.  If he could just arrange babies to be born to suit his needs, as well as all the exact circumstances, he could have arrranged a new greenseer, or ten, or a hundred, decades before.

I think it's much more likely GRRM just did what he said he did in interviews.  He got the idea for that chapter and he was so inspired he wrote it, but we can't and shouldn't expect it to live up to the logic of most of the canon, because it doesn't.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, I think the arithmetic is straightfoward. The first appears, then the others identical to the first. [a full stop], three, four. five as he counts them, plus the first. And then there's the pack behaviour.

Three twins to the first. Now four. Now five. 

It does have "..." at the end. Possibly indicating there were more than 5 twins to the first.

[Brad Stark]

I read the prologue as 5 total Others the first time, with the implication there could be any number more that were there but not seen.

[Brad Stark]

The alternative to the pups being sent is they were there by coincidence.  A direwolf just happened to wander South of the Wall, happened to be pregnant, happened to end up near Winterfell,  happened to die fighting prey before giving birth and coincidentally had 4 male and 2 female pups.  With the indication this happened many times before for Stark children in the past.

We have no indication Bloodraven has power to send the wolves.   But along with Bran, he has a great deal of power beyond what was shown.   If the wolves were sent, and it wasn't by a character not yet introduced, who are the other candidates?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The alternative to the pups being sent is they were there by coincidence.  A direwolf just happened to wander South of the Wall, happened to be pregnant, happened to end up near Winterfell,  happened to die fighting prey before giving birth and coincidentally had 4 male and 2 female pups.  With the indication this happened many times before for Stark children in the past.

We have no indication Bloodraven has power to send the wolves.   But along with Bran, he has a great deal of power beyond what was shown.   If the wolves were sent, and it wasn't by a character not yet introduced, who are the other candidates?

I can only think of Luke Skywalker. Who, in terms of stupid decisions, seems to be a Stark relative.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The alternative to the pups being sent is they were there by coincidence.  A direwolf just happened to wander South of the Wall, happened to be pregnant, happened to end up near Winterfell,  happened to die fighting prey before giving birth and coincidentally had 4 male and 2 female pups.  With the indication this happened many times before for Stark children in the past.

We have no indication Bloodraven has power to send the wolves.   But along with Bran, he has a great deal of power beyond what was shown.   If the wolves were sent, and it wasn't by a character not yet introduced, who are the other candidates?

It's too perfect to not be magic. How did Daenerys survive the funeral pyre? Magic. If the Children of the Forest can conjure a hammer of waters then they can conjure wolf pups. 

[Brad Stark]

We also know someone sent obsidian weapons and an old horn, likely the Children.   Could be the same individual. 

[Jaghen]

17 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, all six children got direwolf pups. 

The concept they were sent -- that is really a dubious matter.

The idea there is some entity in GRRM's fiction capable of arranging for a direwolf to become pregnant with six pups, that corresponded to the six kids, right down to one looking different from the others and wandering off alone, and also somehow arranged  for Jon to find that one, and for the Starks to find them (not anyone else), and who also somehow knew Ned wouldn't kill them all (as he very nearly did) seems... extremely improbable, to say the least. 

Bloodraven is sometimes cited as having "sent" the pups, but he's shown no remote such power.  If he could just arrange babies to be born to suit his needs, as well as all the exact circumstances, he could have arrranged a new greenseer, or ten, or a hundred, decades before.

I think it's much more likely GRRM just did what he said he did in interviews.  He got the idea for that chapter and he was so inspired he wrote it, but we can't and shouldn't expect it to live up to the logic of most of the canon, because it doesn't.

While the correct number and sex of pups looks to be outside of a 3EC's control, as far a s we know, all the rest could feasibly be done. Warging the mother to go South doesn't seem difficult at all.

We have seen Bran as a tree catch Theon's attention. Is it unbelievable that BR would be better at this, with the century (ies for 3EC) of training, and easily attract Jon where he wants him ?

Ned almost killed them. But then he didn't. Because his kids didn't wwant him to. Because the direwolf has been the sigil of his house for millenia. Having studied men for thousands of years, I guess BR could have just guessed what would happen. Alternatively, there is always the possibility that he can see future events. Either through dreams, or more down to earth :

"An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

 

But yes I agree it doesn't necessarily make sense, just like Daenerys surviving the pyre and hatching Dragons. Coincidences happen, sometimes.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

A direwolf just happened to wander South of the Wall, happened to be pregnant, happened to end up near Winterfell,  happened to die fighting prey before giving birth and coincidentally had 4 male and 2 female pups. 

I don't really see a problem with such serendipity--for all the modern trappings, this is still a fairy tale, and plenty of things happen for symbolic and thematic reasons.

For example, though Dany had three dragons she might realistically have ended up riding (and she might also have failed to ever master dragonriding in the first place), I think most readers would intuit the inevitability that Drogon - the dragon with the colors of the Targaryen sigil, the dragon that looks like a second coming of Balerion - would end up being her mount, and that she would eventually come to Westeros as a conqueror. Certain things just make sense at a story level, particularly within this genre.

That said, there does exist a middle ground between something being an absolute in-world conspiracy, or an absolute out-of-world plot contrivance--it's a contrivance that Dany would ride the dragon that most symbolically suits her, but it's in-world intervention that put those eggs in her possession in the first place, and the inspiration for the pyre may not have been a coincidence either.

Returning to the direwolves, the interconnection of life is a heavy element of CotF magic, and it was emphasized that the weirwood does not experience linear time, so we might speculate that BR still could have intervened without literally micromanaging and manipulating every single detail--eg, he sensed or foresaw that a particular direwolf mother (already carrying an appropriate litter) would catalyze the Stark gift, if she died at the right time and in the right place.

I say all of that as someone who doesn't personally believe that BR/the old gods manipulated any of the events of Bran I, but even so, I believe that a blend of coincidence and manipulation is not implausible.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We have no indication Bloodraven has power to send the wolves.   But along with Bran, he has a great deal of power beyond what was shown.   If the wolves were sent, and it wasn't by a character not yet introduced, who are the other candidates?

...continuing to play devil's advocate, while I'm not sold on the wolves being sent, if we're looking for people who might hypothetically be working behind-the-scenes magic, alternative prospects would be the 3EC (under scenarios where the 3EC and BR are different entities), the Green Men and Howland Reed, and the Others, assuming the Others are a faction unto themselves with their own motives and magic.

I'm particularly curious about Howland Reed's place in events. When he sent the Reeds to Winterfell, did he already know that  Bran would eventually be dislodged, and need help to get North of the Wall? How much does he know about the 3EC, and the return of the Others?

[St Daga]

On 7/1/2019 at 10:42 AM, Feather Crystal said:

When Bran came to Jon while he was sleeping he wasn't having a wolf dream, because he wasn't inside Ghost. Jon was dreaming that he himself was Ghost and he was using his third eye to sense where all his siblings were, but he wasn't fully utilizing all the functions of the third eye. Perhaps it was because he didn't realize that he has one or know what his abilities are?

Bran was utilizing a third eye skill by coming to Jon in his dream. He poked Jon in his third eye to fully wake it and suddenly Jon was instantly able to see what Ghost was seeing. The time of day was totally different than the dream, so the dream was not a wolf dream.

I know this part of Jon's dream has been debated on several different Heresy threads. If Jon's third eye is opened later in the dream, which I don't think it really is fully open, since Jon doesn't seem to be able to inhabit other peoples dreams at this point, The first part, where he is sensing his siblings, if it's Jon, then he should be able to sense Arya and Sansa or at least think of two sisters, but the dream entity only senses/thinks of one sister, which leads me to think it is Ghost who has only one living sister left. If a third eye can flutter open occasionally in sleep, then this is exactly what could be happening in the early part of Jon's dream, as you mentioned is possible in an earlier post. Again, it comes down to different interpretations, but Jon not being able to sense both sisters seems to be a clue about who's dream this is.

However, this does seem to be the first time we see this type of dream for Jon, so something is different for him or for Ghost.  And yes, the time of day is different, but how can that be? This would indicate Jon seeing into the past through Ghost, which hints at something besides being a warg, Perhaps a greenseer? Jon was in darkness in the Skirling Pass but Ghost is looking over Mance's camp on an autumn afternoon. Odd! So this time travel through Ghost? Or is the darkness of the Skirling Pass just being in the shadows in the mountains, and not night at all?

 

On 7/1/2019 at 10:42 AM, Feather Crystal said:

I think you may be correct in thinking Arya's third eye was opened when the waif gave her the "milk" and blinded her. She may have had some skills prior, but attributed them to wolf dreams - not realizing that they were real - but now that she was able to see through the eyes of the cat she knows she has this skill.

Yet Arya didn't always have "wolf dreams". Those seem to start after she get's away from Kings Landing, but I think she is having a conscious effort to pull Catelyn's remains out of the river through Nymeria. Not just a passive "wolf dream". I think Arya is an active player in the retrieval of Cat's remains, (and I think getting hit on the head by Sandor's axe was a catalyst for her change) but I can see the argument that she was just along for a ride with Nymeria's actions running the show. I thought there was an SSM about this, but I can't seem to find it now.

 

On 7/1/2019 at 10:44 AM, Black Crow said:

Well, we don't know since GRRM hasn't thus far enlightened us, but the fact of the matter is that as the story is written by GRRM his characters speak of knowing the sound of direwolves. Now if another character took leave to doubt the statement that's fair enough, but as it stands the rangers talk of hearing direwolves howling and nobody says them nay.

I think the only ranger that claims to hear direwolves versus regular wolves is Benjen. As a Stark with a possible deep connection to direwolves, he might be able to distinguish something other's cannot. If that is so, then there are direwolves north of the wall. That question and answer in that article I posted just had me wondering if there is something else going on. I do think it's possible his sub-conscience might be hearing something.

 

On 7/1/2019 at 12:53 PM, LynnS said:

I tend towards the direwolf mum coming from North of the Wall with Gared.  That makes a more interesting story than direwolves are rare but exist south of the Wall even though nobody has seen one for 200 years.  I also think a larger animal might sound different than their smaller cousins and I don't have any reason to doubt the Night Watch when they say there are direwolves north of the Wall.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, in this case anyway, since we know for a fact the direwolves exist.  The direwolf mum didn't make those pups by herself.  If they have long been hunted, they might be cagey enough to avoid humans.

I'm looking at the possibility of the direwolves not existing north or south of the wall. If that is the case, then maybe we need to look at a very magical origin for these pups? That doesn't explain the mother, however, and I realize that. Except something had to grow and birth those pups. which makes them a bit different than Dany's dragons, which came from eggs that could be hundreds of years old. So, a womb needed to be provided by the old gods, too! 

 

On 7/2/2019 at 12:50 AM, Black Crow said:

An odd little side issue of course concerns Jon. All six children were sent direwolf pups. He and everyone else assumes that he gets the odd pup because he's the bastard. However, whether or not his mummy and his daddy were married, what really singles Jon out is that he isn't one of Lord Eddard's own children. He's still a son of Winterfell but the difference between him and the other children is greater than mere bastardy. He's not a son of Lord Eddard Stark yet the Old Gods still send him a direwolf.

I think it could be argued that only Ned's children received direwolves from the old gods. Theon was raised at Winterfell, and while he might not be of Stark blood (although Theon Stark is his namesake?) he might still be considered a "son of Winterfell", based on where he was raised. But no pup for Theon. In the text Benjen hints that he has a few bastards, and in SSM's GRRM has hinted that Brandon had a bastard or two. But we don't see other, unattached direwolves in the world missing their Stark connection. We have six direwolves pups for the six children that are Ned's. Ned seems to be the connection. Why would Lyanna's bastard get a direwolf when Brandon and Benjen's did not?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

...continuing to play devil's advocate, while I'm not sold on the wolves being sent, if we're looking for people who might hypothetically be working behind-the-scenes magic, alternative prospects would be the 3EC (under scenarios where the 3EC and BR are different entities), the Green Men and Howland Reed, and the Others, assuming the Others are a faction unto themselves with their own motives and magic.

I'm particularly curious about Howland Reed's place in events. When he sent the Reeds to Winterfell, did he already know that  Bran would eventually be dislodged, and need help to get North of the Wall? How much does he know about the 3EC, and the return of the Others?

Howland Reed is an interesting option. Considering that Ned had died at the ToJ "if it weren't for Howland Reed" and Ned dreams of his comrades as wraiths ...

[insert noise of a large number of pots cracking]

... maybe Howland Reed raised Ned's dead comrades as White Walkers to deal with Arthur Dayne? And if Arthur Dayne killed them with Dawn there wouldn't be any bones left to return home ...

 

[Melifeather]

43 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Howland Reed is an interesting option. Considering that Ned had died at the ToJ "if it weren't for Howland Reed" and Ned dreams of his comrades as wraiths ...

[insert noise of a large number of pots cracking]

... maybe Howland Reed raised Ned's dead comrades as White Walkers to deal with Arthur Dayne? And if Arthur Dayne killed them with Dawn there wouldn't be any bones left to return home ...

 

I do wonder if Howland skinchanged into Arthur causing enough confusion for Ned to kill him.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We also know someone sent obsidian weapons and an old horn, likely the Children.   Could be the same individual. 

I'm very wary of the notion of a single individual directing things from the shadows

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do wonder if Howland skinchanged into Arthur causing enough confusion for Ned to kill him.

Nah, the dirty rotten coward shot poor Jesse  Arthur in the back

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I know this part of Jon's dream has been debated on several different Heresy threads. If Jon's third eye is opened later in the dream, which I don't think it really is fully open, since Jon doesn't seem to be able to inhabit other peoples dreams at this point, The first part, where he is sensing his siblings, if it's Jon, then he should be able to sense Arya and Sansa or at least think of two sisters, but the dream entity only senses/thinks of one sister, which leads me to think it is Ghost who has only one living sister left. If a third eye can flutter open occasionally in sleep, then this is exactly what could be happening in the early part of Jon's dream, as you mentioned is possible in an earlier post. Again, it comes down to different interpretations, but Jon not being able to sense both sisters seems to be a clue about who's dream this is.

The direwolf connection is what allows for Jon to sense his siblings. Without Lady, Sansa is cutoff from that connection.

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Nah, the dirty rotten coward shot poor Jesse  Arthur in the back

Bran has already shown us how skinchanging living humans is possible. Howland has many gifts and I think skinchanging is one of them.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Jaghen said:

While the correct number and sex of pups looks to be outside of a 3EC's control, as far a s we know, all the rest could feasibly be done.

That's true, but is a little like saying Icarus is plausible except for being able to fly with homemade wings. 

The number and sex of the pups are what determines the fit with the Stark kids, and that was the only reason the pups weren't killed:

Quote

 

"You have five trueborn children," Jon said. "Three sons, two daughters. The direwolf is the sigil of your House. Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord."

Bran saw his father's face change, saw the other men exchange glances.

 

But really, it seems pretty clear that GRRM just literally hadn't thought his first chapter through when he wrote it, and in particular, he hadn't thought the direwolves through. 

He's told us directly about that first chapter that

Quote

It was 1991. I was actually writing another novel. I was writing a science fiction novel that I had been intending to write for some time. And just one day, the first chapter of "Game of Thrones" came to me, the scene where they find the direwolf pups in a-- in the summer snows.

So we know this was just on-the-fly, random inspiration. 

And we also know he hadn't thought at all about the rest of his world at that point, because he also says

Quote

They find the direwolf pups in the summer snows. I knew they were the summer snows. So this was a place where it snowed even in summer. So what could result in that? And, you know, wheels started turning. How would-- what kind of world would have that? Where do these people live?

He clearly had only begun to think about Westeros as a whole, never mind details like the Black Gate.

I'm glad he kept the pups -- I like them as story content -- but it's probably asking too much for them to make much sense, because that chapter just didn't emerge in his head via a logical process.  It started with direwolf pups in the summer snow, and then he started building the world after that.

[asongofheresy]

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/c8p3os/spoilers_extended_so_spake_martin_extended_rarely/

Okay, I know timeline isn't our current subject but the Reddit thread I posted has an interesting SSM about Rebellion timeline and I don't know if this was discussed in the heresy thread about timelines. Here's the quote and it's about Rosart and Chelsted : 

 

Jaime was with Jon Darry when Chelsted died. Then Jon died at the Trident, so it’s a month from Chelsted’s death to Rosssart’s. But in Jamie’s memory Rossart was Hand for a fortnight. Elio discussed the isssue with Anne and George, "we did in fact stick with Rossart being made Hand after the Trident... but it is not explcitly coupled with the date of Chelsted's death. That is, the solution we struck upon is that Chelsted was killed and for a period of time there was no Hand until the Trident, when Aerys appointed Rossart. Presumably this was part and parcel of Aerys's conflict with his son, that he refused to name him (perhaps he dangled it in front of him if he won against Robert) or anyone else, and only chose a Hand when Rhaegar was dead." 

 

I am a little bit confused by this quote but does that means Chelsted died one month before the Trident? And up until Rhaegar's death there was no Hand of the King? If it's true and Rhaella child was conceived during that burning then it will be six weeks when Rhaella escapes to Dragonstone and her child quickens which isn't that possible considering quickening begins at 13th weeks if the mother gave birth before. So is it possible my guess was right and Rhaella's child was conceived during burning of Brandon and Rickard? 

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/c8p3os/spoilers_extended_so_spake_martin_extended_rarely/

Okay, I know timeline isn't our current subject but the Reddit thread I posted has an interesting SSM about Rebellion timeline and I don't know if this was discussed in the heresy thread about timelines. Here's the quote and it's about Rosart and Chelsted : 

 

Jaime was with Jon Darry when Chelsted died. Then Jon died at the Trident, so it’s a month from Chelsted’s death to Rosssart’s. But in Jamie’s memory Rossart was Hand for a fortnight. Elio discussed the isssue with Anne and George, "we did in fact stick with Rossart being made Hand after the Trident... but it is not explcitly coupled with the date of Chelsted's death. That is, the solution we struck upon is that Chelsted was killed and for a period of time there was no Hand until the Trident, when Aerys appointed Rossart. Presumably this was part and parcel of Aerys's conflict with his son, that he refused to name him (perhaps he dangled it in front of him if he won against Robert) or anyone else, and only chose a Hand when Rhaegar was dead." 

 

I am a little bit confused by this quote but does that means Chelsted died one month before the Trident? And up until Rhaegar's death there was no Hand of the King? If it's true and Rhaella child was conceived during that burning then it will be six weeks when Rhaella escapes to Dragonstone and her child quickens which isn't that possible considering quickening begins at 13th weeks if the mother gave birth before. So is it possible my guess was right and Rhaella's child was conceived during burning of Brandon and Rickard? 

It does sound as if Chelsted was burned a month prior to the Trident, and that Rossart was named Hand two weeks later. 

Aerys raped Rhaella every time he burned someone and Chelsted wasn't the first, so I agree with you that Daenerys conception could have been as early as when Aerys burned Rickard Stark. Added to that was the report that Rhaella was pregnant when she left. Now, I understand that was Maester Yandel's report, but nobody seems to question that much was true. If the birth was conveniently 9 months later, I would think that would open up legitimacy questions.

The definition of "quicken" doesn't encompass conception, but rather it's the first time a mother can feel the fetus "fluttering" in the womb.