Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Politically correct theories? LOL

Yes and I've always wondered how is it that Bran and Co. can hear him speak?

1. Huh? 

I mean, when it comes to theories, there's the GRRM approved Meereenese Blot essays on Dany...and there's RLJ. One is a great building with a solid foundation...the other is a house of mismatched cards held together with duct tape and alot of prayers.

2. I suppose that's a good question. I'd wager he's some sort of undead.

[Brad Stark]

We don't know Coldhands can't exhale, only that he doesn't need to.   His lungs could be functional to speak even without being needed to breathe. 

But it does raise an interesting, but maybe too far out, possibility.   What if he isn't speaking?  What if he uses some form of telepathy and people only think they hear him, and this is why he keeps his mouth covered. 

Cat can't speak, but we are told this is from her neck injury.   We know Beric can speak, but do we know if he needs to breathe?

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

1. Huh? 

I mean, when it comes to theories, there's the GRRM approved Meereenese Blot essays on Dany...and there's RLJ. One is a great building with a solid foundation...the other is a house of mismatched cards held together with duct tape and alot of prayers.

2. I suppose that's a good question. I'd wager he's some sort of undead.

1.  LOL! I didn't know that's what you meant. 

2.  Undead for sure.  How do they hear him? Psychically, like Dany in the House of Undying?

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

She is not breathing. Dany listened to the silence. None of them are breathing, and they do not move, and those eyes see nothing. Could it be that the Undying Ones were dead?

Her answer was a whisper as thin as a mouse's whisker. . . . we live . . . live . . . live . . . it sounded. Myriad other voices whispered echoes. . . . and know . . . know . . . know . . . know . . .

"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"

 

 

[Melifeather]

59 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't know what Brad is referring to, but I do feel that Benjen might have certain frustrations that are going unspoken (but hinted at) during Jon and Benjen's conversation in Jon I AGOT:
 

While this also reads as a general frustration with the way Jon has been raised - that he has a low opinion of bastardy, and feels like an outsider within his own family - I think it would take on an added layer if Jon is Lyanna's son, and Benjen were aware of that.

Benjen's reaction comes immediately after Jon mentions his up and coming 15th birthday and how bastards grow up faster, so to me it seems as if the lie lies (or is it lays?) with his birthday. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Jon's assumed age and name day are lies. He's older than he thinks he is and Benjen knows it too.

Oh, and by the way...Benjen is dead. 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Politically correct theories? LOL

Yes and I've always wondered how is it that Bran and Co. can hear him speak?

Ya, it's pretty hard to speak without air passing through a larynx. He may be able to pass air in and out of his lungs, but because he's dead his body doesn't warm the air or infuse it with moisture so you wouldn't be able to see his breath.

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh, and by the way...Benjen is dead. 

Someting else we agree on... He was turned into bacon.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Benjen's reaction comes immediately after Jon mentions his up and coming 15th birthday and how bastards grow up faster, so to me it seems as if the lie lies (or is it lays?) with his birthday. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Jon's assumed age and name day are lies. He's older than he thinks he is and Benjen knows it too.

Oh, and by the way...Benjen is dead. 

Benjen isn't dead. He's on a mission.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know Coldhands can't exhale, only that he doesn't need to.   His lungs could be functional to speak even without being needed to breathe. 

 

There's no reason why they shouldn't be. After all his other muscles still work.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

There's no reason why they shouldn't be. After all his other muscles still work.

True. I thought speech was made by passing air over the larynx but just because he doesn't breathe; doesn't mean he can't expand his lungs and draw in air.  As Feather points out, there's no heat to show any breath in the cold air. 

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Benjen isn't dead. He's on a mission. 

Benjen bacon refers to a theory that Craster killed Benjen, Othor and Jafr with an axe and put Benjen in his larder.  If I recall correctly, he asks Mormont for an axe because his is no longer useful or sharp enough.  Also that Mormont takes great pains not to accept formal hospitality from Craster who doesn't really offer it.   

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Benjen bacon refers to a theory that Craster killed Benjen, Othor and Jafr with an axe and put Benjen in his larder.  If I recall correctly, he asks Mormont for an axe because his is no longer useful or sharp enough.  Also that Mormont takes great pains not to accept formal hospitality from Craster who doesn't really offer it.   

Indeed that's what it refers to: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2016/08/30/crasters-black-blooded-curse/

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Someting else we agree on... He was turned into bacon.

I do like the idea that the white walkers can use ice to "see", sort of like a glass candle.

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'd say it's true that they are using glamor.

George said the armor has 2 functions: reflecting and camouflage. So mirrors and camouflage. In Plutionian Others I proposed they are basically ice spiders , a completely different life form. The next essay focuses particularly on the armor (it would have been published over a week ago if it didn't get overwritten by an older draft version, so now I'm rewriting it). But the basics is this: on the one hand the armor is a hint imo that the Others can use ice as looking glass, and that includes the Wall.

Well, your Plutonian Others essay (with Kissed by Fire and The Fattest Leach) is a wonderfully executed piece of writing.  AND I had forgotten that you wrote Craster's Black Blood, an essay that has stuck in mind my mind for some time.  I recall that I enjoyed that one too and definately worth a re-read.

We've recently opened a different line of inquiry about the Others and their origin, that the WW are related to the Stark mystery.  Black Crow has suggested that Starks are extremely powerful skinschangers who can construct a body of ice, if appropriate measure are not taken to confine them after death.   This is part of the Stark Musgrave Ritual that has been forgotten, something that is reflected in the Stark words which are all that is remembered about their history and the mystery of the crypts.

In this scenario, the Stark skinchangers can float across the landscape after death, in the manner of Varamyr before his soul is collected and confined.  We question whether Starks can chose to return to their body in the manner of Coldhands, or construct a body of ice and become a WW, something Ned Stark refers to as the frozen hell reserved for Starks.  

Rather than being a different species of humanoid; the Others are constructed with magic using ice and snow.  George tells us that when Sam pierces the armor of the WW; that he breaks the spell holding it together.  Their essential substance is the soul or shadow-soul (my interpretation) encased in a thin armor of ice and a bones like milkwater.  These are the only substance that give any weight.

Sam's description:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.

There isn't much bulk or weight to an object that is sword-slim. The sentinel tree sheds it's burden of snow and out pops a WW.  Stannis an Melisandre give the Others another origin:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

 

So these Others seem to be created by magic and dispatched by magic.  The question is what animates them and gives them intelligence.

I've questioned whether the Others actually need a glamor if their armor is composed of an ice mirror.  That would essentially reflect the environment as a form of camouflage not requiring any kind of glamor. 

I have to break here but will come back a little later.

 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Does the cold bring the Others, or do the Others bring the cold?

What if they are the cold? Tormund tells us they are never far, even by day. Yet we never see them when it's light. Why? Where are there? Hibernating? Seems more likely to me that they are spirits, riding the wind, and only in certain circumstances (Winter) can they materialize bodies for themselves, bodies of snow and ice and cold. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do like the idea that the white walkers can use ice to "see", sort of like a glass candle.

I want to expand a little bit on this idea. The "fire side" has two ways to "see": glass candles and via the flames, so It's only logical that the "ice side" have two ways also: weirwoods and mirrored ice.

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We've recently opened a different line of inquiry about the Others and their origin, that the WW are related to the Stark mystery.  Black Crow has suggested that Starks are extremely powerful skinschangers who can construct a body of ice, if appropriate measure are not taken to confine them after death.   This is part of the Stark Musgrave Ritual that has been forgotten, something that is reflected in the Stark words which are all that is remembered about their history and the mystery of the crypts.

I'm pouting here a little bit and feeling a little left out, because I've been proposing a human source for the white walkers too for quite awhile. I differ a little bit with Black Crow in that I believe the wildlings are the humans constructing the white walkers and that any skinchanger can become a white walker - not just Starks. I even suspect that Tormund's son Torwynd went through the transformation, because he was a sickly human and the prospect of becoming a white walker was a preferable choice. 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Does the cold bring the Others, or do the Others bring the cold?

What if they are the cold? Tormund tells us they are never far, even by day. Yet we never see them when it's light. Why? Where are there? Hibernating? Seems more likely to me that they are spirits, riding the wind, and only in certain circumstances (Winter) can they materialize bodies for themselves, bodies of snow and ice and cold. 

I suspect that they need the cold to exist, but that when they are around they bring about an intense cold. I believe it was LynnS's idea that they can travel upon the wind and materialize at will. She pointed to the snow dropping off the trees prior to their appearance as evidence.

I imagine sunlight is deadly to their icy form. 

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect that they need the cold to exist, but that when they are around they bring about an intense cold. I believe it was LynnS's idea that they can travel upon the wind and materialize at will. She pointed to the snow dropping off the trees prior to their appearance as evidence.

I imagine sunlight is deadly to their icy form. 

I go back to Varamyr's soul.  He seems float about without any control, going into the earth, a rock, a weirwood and finally the wolf where his soul finally sticks to something.  So is he being moved about like a leaf on the wind?  Perhaps this gives meaning to the words "winds of winter" or a storm of petals.  The frozen hell that Ned dreams about seems to be a reference to Dante's inferno; The seventh hell, the frozen hell reserved for traitors.  I think this is part of the truth that Jojen warns Bran about; that he should fear the past and future.

I don't thinks it's a coincidence that there are such things as Soldier Pines and Sentinel trees.  You can dispatch a WW and break the spell holding the soul in one form; but it doesn't end the existence of the soul or the sentence confining them to the frozen hell.  They might as well wait in the trees until called upon.   This might explain why we have seen so little of the Others.

Either way, this is a form of second life or 'another form of life' to quote GRRM.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I want to expand a little bit on this idea. The "fire side" has two ways to "see": glass candles and via the flames, so It's only logical that the "ice side" have two ways also: weirwoods and mirrored ice.

I'm pouting here a little bit and feeling a little left out, because I've been proposing a human source for the white walkers too for quite awhile. I differ a little bit with Black Crow in that I believe the wildlings are the humans constructing the white walkers and that any skinchanger can become a white walker - not just Starks. I even suspect that Tormund's son Torwynd went through the transformation, because he was a sickly human and the prospect of becoming a white walker was a preferable choice. 

Well it's possible that some skinchangers may be part of the WW army but does the existence of the Others have more to do with the Stark history we don't know about yet.  Would they be sentenced to the frozen hell?

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well it's possible that some skinchangers may be part of the WW army but does the existence of the Others have more to do with the Stark history we don't know about yet.  Would they be sentenced to the frozen hell?

I suspect the Stark’s frozen hell is more in line with becoming like Coldhands and waiting in the crypts until needed. I’m thinking it’s an advantage to be cold and dead in order to defeat white walkers. What is dead can never die and all that. Ironically Ned was freed from this fate when his body was removed from his bones.

[LynnS]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The prologue heavily hints that the Others set a trap to confront Waymar Royce, and that they identified him by his black steel sword and rich cloak. The trees very much attempt to scare off, warn and eventually protect the rangers. For example, when Will and Royce are almost to the spot where the Others await him, branches try to pry away his sword and cloak. Craster later stresses he recalls Royce because of the sword and cloak (mentioning the sword is black steel). Not only did the Others mean to kill Royce, they made damn sure the sword was destroyed and the cloak was slashed several times. And when Will attempts to take the remainder of the sword, that's when wighted Royce strangles him.

Yes that is a strong impression for me.  I also suspect they are looking for Jon but missed the mark.  The fight itself seemed to be something of a trial by combat.   I also think that the WW realizes that it's not Jon Snow when he looks at the sword.  He seems to boast or gloat and then toy with Waymar.

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyhow, Magician Joe proposed several years ago that the Others were after Jon Snow, and mistook Waymar Royce for Jon. Several angles were proposed on how the Others could have gotten their information. Craster as informant was proposed. LmL proposes the Others use and corrupted the weirnet. But imo the answer if far more simpler than that: they use ice surfaces, and thus the Wall.

I do like the idea that the Others can use ice as a mirror or reflecting surface to spy out the land; but if we are following the tree-clues, perhaps we should look to the Sentinel Trees and Soldier Pines as well.

As to the Wall, could it be a source of magic used by the WW to construct their ice bodies?  Melisandre tells Jon that there is power in the Wall and within himself that he can use if he wished.  Indeed I think Melisandre also draws on the power of the Wall during the Rattleshirt sacrifice.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

I don't think this is just reflection.   The Wall itself is described as a sword by Benjen:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. It was true. Sweeping in over one huge humped hill, the ice dipped down into a valley, climbed the knife edge of a long granite ridgeline for a league or more, ran along a jagged crest, dipped again into a valley deeper still, and then rose higher and higher, leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see, into the mountainous west.

Or a sword without a hilt? Is the sword Ice belonging to House Stark?  What is the connection between House Stark and the Night's Watch and the Wall?