St Daga Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 On 7/11/2019 at 10:35 AM, sweetsunray said: The prologue heavily hints that the Others set a trap to confront Waymar Royce, and that they identified him by his black steel sword and rich cloak. The trees very much attempt to scare off, warn and eventually protect the rangers. For example, when Will and Royce are almost to the spot where the Others await him, branches try to pry away his sword and cloak. Craster later stresses he recalls Royce because of the sword and cloak (mentioning the sword is black steel). Not only did the Others mean to kill Royce, they made damn sure the sword was destroyed and the cloak was slashed several times. And when Will attempts to take the remainder of the sword, that's when wighted Royce strangles him. This idea of Waymar's sword being "black steel" which could fit the image of Valyrian steel, but wouldn't the Other's realize when it shattered that it was not the correct sword they were looking for? I think that Waymar's sword hilt also fits something important that they were looking for, and perhaps that is why they didn't want Will to take it. I do agree that they are looking for a certain type of warrior and a black sword is important, but why the cloak? Black as in night's watch? Or just any black cloak? Interestingly, we do see other "black steel" weapons in the story and one is the axe that Jeor Mormont gives to Craster, and "black steel" plays an important role in the song "The Dornishman's Wife" and that blades "kiss was a terrible thing". This is making me wonder why Jeor carried a "black steel" axe, and if he has some knowledge that prompted him to not only carry "black steel" but to gift Jon Snow with "black steel" although a different variety of steel. Interesting that this happens after the attack by the wights. This seems to be the time when Jeor starts thinking about all the things the Night's Watch has forgotten. On 7/11/2019 at 10:35 AM, sweetsunray said: George has several magical objects and elements used to "see", but one of the typical magical seeing objects has been absent so far: a mirror, a looking glass. There's a hint for an ice mirror through Royce's sword: a piece of it struck his eye, which is an allusion to Anderson's fairytale of the Ice Queen. In that story you have 2 magical mirrors. One was created by the devil and his demons that distorted perceptions. As they hauled it up to heaven to mock God and his angels, it fell and shattered into thousand pieces. The shards got into people's eyes, and all they could see after that is the evil of other humans, and only feel hatred and loathing. The brother of a girl in that story gets a splinter of that mirror into his eye and gets taken by the Ice Queen. She too has a mirror, a mirror of truth to see far and beyond, and it's an ice lake. Very interesting! On 7/11/2019 at 10:35 AM, sweetsunray said: Anyhow, Jon stays away from ice all the way until back at the Wall to climb it. He does swim at some point, inside a cave, and no ice near. Of course by the time he climbs the Wall, the Others would have been able to see him up close and personal, but out of reach. And this is the first time that George in particular uses the word "reflect" for the Wall (it's Jon's first encounter with the Wall again AFTER Jeor died, and the Wall is only said to "reflect" in Jon POVs... I find this idea of ice as the "eye's" of the Other's to be have a great deal of merit, and do enjoy how you have tied it to Jon Snow. I was just rereading Ramsay and fArya's wedding last night, and then read your initial thoughts afterward, and it struck me that there might be no ice in the Winterfell godswood. The hot pools don't form ice, and it seems like the warm water in the ground keeps the godswood thawed, so this might mean the Other's cannot look into what the Stark's are doing, at least in their godswood? The black pool isn't mentioned in the wedding scene (although on read back there is "black ice" on the paths, but in the Turncloak chapter, the black pool is noted to have formed ice on it's surface. Theon is praying to the tree, but perhaps something else is watching him, as well? Perhaps black ice is a different medium than regular ice? But if human's once knew the Other's could see through ice, why would they build a wall, or allow a wall to be built, that could be used to spy on them? Unless that was part of a pact of some sort. Each side has it's boundaries, but also have the ability to "look" into each other's territory. The Other's use the wall, and the Black Brother's are allowed ranging's? Because who could build such a massive wall of ice besides the Other's? The idea of ice being used to as a medium for looking is a nice parallel to the idea of fire being used to look through. Perhaps the weirwoods are the middle ground in this case, being used to look, but not tied to either fire or ice. On 7/11/2019 at 10:35 AM, sweetsunray said: The trees very much attempt to scare off, warn and eventually protect the rangers. For example, when Will and Royce are almost to the spot where the Others await him, branches try to pry away his sword and cloak... Another protection sign from the trees is how the tree that Will climbs almost instantly releases treesap that makes Will stick to the tree. His hands and later his cheek. It's as if the tree wants to glue Will to him, to prevent him from going down during nighttime. Only when the Others finally appear and it's too late, do the trees and animals grow silent. And it are the trees that are reflected in the Others' armor. Follow the tree-clues and you arrive at the truth. Only Gared heeds the warning signs of the trees and the wolf (which I suspect is indeed the female direwolf). This idea of the sentinel tree's and soldier pines has always caught my attention. These types of tree's are mentioned fairly often in the story. I have wondered if they were meant to guard the weirwoods, as it might be in the Winterfell godswood, but in the scene you describe there is no weirwood to protect. Yet soldiers and sentinel's are watchers and protectors, so I do like this idea that the trees'are actually protecting mankind against interaction with the Other's. Thanks for posting your thoughts on this, @sweetsunray. I haven't read all your essays, but I particularly enjoyed your thoughts in The Chthonic Cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: I should have done a query myself before even posting that idea! I'm searching A Storm of Swords right now and Longclaw is named frequently while Jon recalls killing Qhorin, and later when fighting the wildlings at Queen's Crown. If the wildlings hadn't noticed that Jon had Longclaw previously, they certainly do now. There are, relatively speaking, very few dragonblade or Valyrian swords, so for now I'm thinking the focus is more on the blades than it is on Jon Snow. Another person who might fit the imagery of Jon Snow with a black blade is Lyn Corbray. He is slender, handsome and dark-haired, and he wields the Valyrian steel sword Lady Forlorn. Lady Forlorn is an interesting sword, although it has a ruby in the pommel, which makes it quite different from Waymar Royce's sword, which I think had three sapphire's in the pommel. Still, the Stark's and the Royce's carry the blood of the First Men, and that might be an important connection to this idea of a black sword, however the Corbray's are an Andal house, I think, 21 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I really can't get behind the notion that the pack of walkers who scragged Ser Waymar were actually looking for Jon Snow. The timing is way off. Leaving aside my suggested connection between the six white walkers and the six direwolf pups, the fact of the matter is that Ser Waymar got his somewhere beyond the Wall before Gared and the direwolf tooled up near Winterfell. You then need to add another period of time after that to allow for the direwolves to grow up into young dogs before Jon even talks about coming north. It's been quite some time since I read this idea by Joe Magician about a Jon Snow look-alike but I think the premise is that the Other's have been searching for "a type" of man who fits Jon Snow's general appearance. Slender, dark haired, perhaps long-faced, and wielding a certain weapon. Because unless they can see into the future, they would not be able to know that Jon Snow is going to the wall. However, if they can see something at Winterfell, they might have seen Waymar Royce at Winterfell, as well as Jon Snow. We know that Waymar and his father stopped at Winterfell on their journey north, because Sansa quite crushed on a handsome Waymar and Bronze Yohn (of the interesting runic bronze armor) beat Ned and Ser Rodrik in sword training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 25 minutes ago, Black Crow said: My, its moved on a bit since I last looked in. I really can't get behind the notion that the pack of walkers who scragged Ser Waymar were actually looking for Jon Snow. The timing is way off. Leaving aside my suggested connection between the six white walkers and the six direwolf pups, the fact of the matter is that Ser Waymar got his somewhere beyond the Wall before Gared and the direwolf tooled up near Winterfell. You then need to add another period of time after that to allow for the direwolves to grow up into young dogs before Jon even talks about coming north. Well, think of it in terms like the Red Priests and Mel of even Jojen's dreams. What they see is "accurate", but interpreting it is something else entirely. Example: Mel believes Stannis is AA-reborn, but is she correct? In aDwD she only sees Snow when she asks to see Stannis. Other Rh'llorists see Dany, or other stuff. None of them can truly control what future imagery they see, or even how clear or symbolic the imagery will be. Mel saw Renly defeat Stannis. She killed Renly with a shadowbaby to prevent it. But it was never Renly she saw in that image. It was Garlan wearing Renly's armor. And she didn't know when that would happen either. And for a long time she believed Stannis was to be king first, but Davos showed her and Stannis otherwise. This led her to Jon. And now she cannot see Stannis at all anymore. Why would you assume they see the future more clearer and unambiguous using ice? There's not even any reason to assume it comes with sound. If they don't know the name of the future threat, but only know he's got a rick black cloak and a black sword and a face similar to that of Jon's, or when precisely this threat will manifest, then yes they can mistake Waymar for Jon, and indeed be off for about a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 hours ago, JNR said: Interesting. I think it first clicked for me when I read the TOJ dream, but I wouldn't swear to that. For most it never clicks at all. I remember laughing when I read Damon Lindelof's remarks that GRRM had no business critiquing LOST, re mysteries or puzzles, because GRRM writes fantasy and fantasy has none. This quote by GRRM, inspiring that response, also tells us quite a bit about what GRRM expects of himself in writing his own ending, and the standard he expects others to judge him by: He outlasted me, I'm afraid. It was clear to me in season two they would never be able to pull it together (much like BSG at roughly the same time). But GRRM can pull it off... if he ever writes it at all. He just needs to admit he needs nine books. Two for TWOW and two for ADOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 24 minutes ago, St Daga said: This idea of Waymar's sword being "black steel" which could fit the image of Valyrian steel, but wouldn't the Other's realize when it shattered that it was not the correct sword they were looking for? I think that Waymar's sword hilt also fits something important that they were looking for, and perhaps that is why they didn't want Will to take it. They don't work metal. They don't know how blades are forged, let alone that there might be a difference between VS and other steel. 24 minutes ago, St Daga said: I do agree that they are looking for a certain type of warrior and a black sword is important, but why the cloak? Black as in night's watch? Or just any black cloak? Interestingly, we do see other "black steel" weapons in the story and one is the axe that Jeor Mormont gives to Craster, and "black steel" plays an important role in the song "The Dornishman's Wife" and that blades "kiss was a terrible thing". This is making me wonder why Jeor carried a "black steel" axe, and if he has some knowledge that prompted him to not only carry "black steel" but to gift Jon Snow with "black steel" although a different variety of steel. Interesting that this happens after the attack by the wights. This seems to be the time when Jeor starts thinking about all the things the Night's Watch has forgotten. Yes, it's interesting how black steel is featured. 27 minutes ago, St Daga said: I find this idea of ice as the "eye's" of the Other's to be have a great deal of merit, and do enjoy how you have tied it to Jon Snow. I was just rereading Ramsay and fArya's wedding last night, and then read your initial thoughts afterward, and it struck me that there might be no ice in the Winterfell godswood. The hot pools don't form ice, and it seems like the warm water in the ground keeps the godswood thawed, so this might mean the Other's cannot look into what the Stark's are doing, at least in their godswood? The black pool isn't mentioned in the wedding scene (although on read back there is "black ice" on the paths, but in the Turncloak chapter, the black pool is noted to have formed ice on it's surface. Theon is praying to the tree, but perhaps something else is watching him, as well? Perhaps black ice is a different medium than regular ice? Love your expansion. Since the ice mirror idea and the notion that Others knew where to hunt wildlings for the wight army to attack the Fist via the glacier, I've been wondering whether they can see the Eyrie for example, with Alyssa's Tears frozen over. Can they see Stannis at the Battle of the Ice Lakes? And yes, it is quite interesting that WF's godswood is at a hotspot where most pools cannot freeze over. 31 minutes ago, St Daga said: But if human's once knew the Other's could see through ice, why would they build a wall, or allow a wall to be built, that could be used to spy on them? Unless that was part of a pact of some sort. Each side has it's boundaries, but also have the ability to "look" into each other's territory. The Other's use the wall, and the Black Brother's are allowed ranging's? Because who could build such a massive wall of ice besides the Other's? Did humans know the Others can see through ice? I think it requires a visit to the Heart of the Lands of Always Winter to see convincing evidence of this, and I don't think any hero has tried that (yet). If they didn't know ice was used to see, then perhaps they thought it was safe to build the Wall. Then only later some might have figured it out or feared it, especially after N'sK, and installed the weirwood gate underground to avoid the Others' eyes. The Nightfort is the oldest fort. The rest was build later. And by that time this fear was forgotten again. But yeah, I've been stumped by the idea that people or CotF knew ice magic to build a wall. Then again, you have some sorcerer cutting a child root and stem to talk to a blue flame. People (especially sorcerers) tend to have a habit of hubris, no? They're curious and manage to learn some type of magic, and then believe they are the best at it and can control it better than the most adept at it (the Others). Just look at Mel who believes she can do anything, playing with fire, euhm ice. 41 minutes ago, St Daga said: The idea of ice being used to as a medium for looking is a nice parallel to the idea of fire being used to look through. Perhaps the weirwoods are the middle ground in this case, being used to look, but not tied to either fire or ice. That's how i see "green magic" yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, St Daga said: It's been quite some time since I read this idea by Joe Magician about a Jon Snow look-alike but I think the premise is that the Other's have been searching for "a type" of man who fits Jon Snow's general appearance. Slender, dark haired, perhaps long-faced, and wielding a certain weapon. Because unless they can see into the future, they would not be able to know that Jon Snow is going to the wall. However, if they can see something at Winterfell, they might have seen Waymar Royce at Winterfell, as well as Jon Snow. We know that Waymar and his father stopped at Winterfell on their journey north, because Sansa quite crushed on a handsome Waymar and Bronze Yohn (of the interesting runic bronze armor) beat Ned and Ser Rodrik in sword training. He made a video of it less than a year ago, and aksed me to refer to the video nowadays instead of his original reddit thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: I should do another reread, because when you get to my age you forget a lot! I just rewatched The Hangover last night and found myself saying, I do not remember this part at all, nor this, and certainly not this! LOL I think he's distanced himself, because of the number of rabid fans. He's probably had his fill of crazed encounters. I too wonder about if he fears ending his epic story. He's lived with his baby for what, over 23 years? Well, GRRM said in May of last year that his publishers were pressuring him to split TWOW ala AFFC/ADWD. This implies to me that back then he already had over 2000 MS pages of material. I think he has had a severe commitment issue with TWOW. However, I also think he is wrestling with trying to shrink his story to fit his 7 book prediction as well as make his Books 1-3 world fit with all the new stuff he hadn't intended but invented in Books 4-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 30 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said: Well, GRRM said in May of last year that his publishers were pressuring him to split TWOW ala AFFC/ADWD. This implies to me that back then he already had over 2000 MS pages of material. I think he has had a severe commitment issue with TWOW. However, I also think he is wrestling with trying to shrink his story to fit his 7 book prediction as well as make his Books 1-3 world fit with all the new stuff he hadn't intended but invented in Books 4-5. Yes, I had read that as well and I might add that GRRM said he wanted to avoid splitting it. Maybe his goal now is to actually find the break in the story between Winds and Spring? Maybe he's written way too much "winter"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 7 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said: Does the cold bring the Others, or do the Others bring the cold? What if they are the cold? Tormund tells us they are never far, even by day. Yet we never see them when it's light. Why? Where are there? Hibernating? Seems more likely to me that they are spirits, riding the wind, and only in certain circumstances (Winter) can they materialize bodies for themselves, bodies of snow and ice and cold. An old cowboy went riding out one dark and windy day ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said: Yes, I had read that as well and I might add that GRRM said he wanted to avoid splitting it. Maybe his goal now is to actually find the break in the story between Winds and Spring? Maybe he's written way too much "winter"? This ain't from GRRM himself, more like hearsay, but the author of Outlander mentioned less than a year ago I think on a video where she was talking about "writing" how her friend George mentioned during lunch he had written himself in a corner, because he had killed a character and now he needed him. Her joke was that she didn't have that as a problem commonly (laughter by the audience), but that as the master of his world he could always write someone in or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 @Feather Crystal I was just looking into House Royce, in regards to their first man origin, their bronze runic armor, and the fact that Waymar Royce might fit a body type similar to Jon Snow and it stood out to me that they once called themselves the Bronze Kings. Not only do the Royce's have bronze armor with runes engraved in it, but they also have a sigil of black iron studs on a bronze field, and they are noted for having had a crown known as the Runic Crown. There is no description of that crown, but it makes me wonder just a bit about what we know of the crown of the Kings of Winter. A bronze crown engraved with runes with black iron spikes like swords on it, Anyway, bronze, runes and black iron seem to be something that a family who wore a crown called the Runic Crown and uses bronze, runes and black iron might identify with. House Royce's words are "We Remember". I know you are theorizing that House Stark was not the first family of Winterfell, and while I am unsure of that concept, all this Royce imagery did stand out to me. Perhaps House Royce is what you are looking for? Perhaps the words "We Remember" are directed at House Stark, as in "we remember you stole our home and crown"? Perhaps the Stark crown of old is a crown they took from the Bronze Kings at one time, before driving them from the north? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, sweetsunray said: He made a video of it less than a year ago, and aksed me to refer to the video nowadays instead of his original reddit thread: Thanks for posting the link. I have watched this video, as well. My comments to it were this: Quote Nice video!I love the details! I would certainly agree that Waymar and Jon might fit a certain "type". But another important Stark that is missing north of the wall is Benjen Stark. Perhaps the Other's have him, and never intended to kill the man they were looking for. Maybe they hope to draw Jon to them with Benjen? They only seem to attack Waymar after realizing he was not quite what they sought. The Stark that Craster would have been most familiar with is Benjen, so perhaps the Other's were looking for Benjen, or someone who shares the same looks as Benjen? Although, Benjen does not have the classic Stark grey eyes, according to Jon Snow. Waymar has some physical criteria that also fit's Jon Snow. Another man in out story who wields a special blade and hails from the Vale is Lyn Corbray. Lyn is slender and quick, dark haired although we have no description of eye color, he is bold and quick tempered. He also reminds me of a "type" that we might be looking for. And he has Lady Forlorn, a sword that is a dark steel, but not necessarily Valyrian steel, as it is probably older than Valyrian steel. So what is this sword made out of? He claims his sword likes a "drop of red". After Waymar dances with the Other, and is defeated, then the rest of the watching Other's step in to stab him. But why? He is already dead or dying, so this seems pointless. Will claims it is cold butchery, but I think it might be something else. Perhaps Waymar's blood is special, important. And each sword of the Other's was then tempered in this blood!!! It might be why they sought him out. I do think it's interesting that neither Jon nor Waymar slept under Craster's roof, ate his food or seemed to accept his guest right. I am not sure what it might mean, but I think it's important. One thing that has always struck me in Jon's dream where he wears armor made of black ice, is the comment about "red mist". If Jon is truly killing the Other's, or their dead, they will not have red blood, so why the red mist in the air? The only other time "red mist" is used in the story is to describe the Hound shedding the blood of Sansa's attacker's in the riot in King's Landing. The wight's will not have red blood, so is this "red mist" of Jon's something else? It reminds me of Eddard's "red rage", perhaps a berserker type of moment. Or Jon isn't killing wight's in his dream! I would also speculate that Gared might have been saved by making a fire to protect himself. He wanted to earlier in the chapter, and I think that is exactly what he did, which protected himself from the wights, if not the Other's, as well! Also, if the Other's want Jon, why didn't they seek him out the whole time he was north of the wall? They would have had opportunity and time. Even if they thought he was at the Fist, they sent no Other's, only wights. It is possible that Jon is not exactly what they are seeking? I do think your theory addresses why they didn't come looking for Jon Snow when he was north of the wall, if they were unable to see him through the ice. 2 hours ago, sweetsunray said: They don't work metal. They don't know how blades are forged, let alone that there might be a difference between VS and other steel. They might know how steel blades are forged. They have the ability to forge their own blades, razor sharp, thin, and looking like ice, so they could have knowledge on how to make a blade that counters their own. I think that by the time they have looked over Waymar and attacked, they know the blade they are facing is not quite what they are looking for. There is also the oddness involved in the "cold butchery" aspect of what they do to Waymar. He is down and then the first Other calls forth his "twins" and they all take turns stabbing Waymar, which seems to me that they could be using his blood to do something to their own weapons. His blood is noted to be red as fire in the snow. Of course, they could certainly think the blood they are bathing their blades in belongs to some prophesied enemy of theirs. But if they thought they had vanquished an enemy long looked for, why not claim the body, the cloak, the sword hilt, the shards of the sword blade? Instead they leave it all there in that snowy clearing. 2 hours ago, sweetsunray said: Did humans know the Others can see through ice? I am speculating here, but if the humans defeated the Other's once, then I think they would have learned the secrets of this mystical ice race. And of course, with the passage of time, this important fact has been forgotten. I could be very wrong about that, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 42 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: This ain't from GRRM himself, more like hearsay, but the author of Outlander mentioned less than a year ago I think on a video where she was talking about "writing" how her friend George mentioned during lunch he had written himself in a corner, because he had killed a character and now he needed him. Her joke was that she didn't have that as a problem commonly (laughter by the audience), but that as the master of his world he could always write someone in or something. I am familiar with that quote. She basically told George to get a new bucket and paint himself out of the corner and then paint the hallway behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 2 hours ago, St Daga said: @Feather Crystal I was just looking into House Royce, in regards to their first man origin, their bronze runic armor, and the fact that Waymar Royce might fit a body type similar to Jon Snow and it stood out to me that they once called themselves the Bronze Kings. Not only do the Royce's have bronze armor with runes engraved in it, but they also have a sigil of black iron studs on a bronze field, and they are noted for having had a crown known as the Runic Crown. There is no description of that crown, but it makes me wonder just a bit about what we know of the crown of the Kings of Winter. A bronze crown engraved with runes with black iron spikes like swords on it, Anyway, bronze, runes and black iron seem to be something that a family who wore a crown called the Runic Crown and uses bronze, runes and black iron might identify with. House Royce's words are "We Remember". I know you are theorizing that House Stark was not the first family of Winterfell, and while I am unsure of that concept, all this Royce imagery did stand out to me. Perhaps House Royce is what you are looking for? Perhaps the words "We Remember" are directed at House Stark, as in "we remember you stole our home and crown"? Perhaps the Stark crown of old is a crown they took from the Bronze Kings at one time, before driving them from the north? I haven’t explored the Royce’s as being a possible candidate for a defeated family from Winterfell, but there does seem to be something there. That being said I think they may be too geographically removed and yet still south of the Wall to be from Winterfell. House Royce are vassals of the Arryn’s, but I do think they are ancient enough to have existed during the Bronze Age, and their words “we remember” seem to imply that they have perhaps kept records. i think the marriage between Alys Karstark and the Magnar of Thenn is intended to be an inverted parallel to the marriage between the Nights King and the Other - the implication being that the female Other may have been a Thenn. The next step in the theory has to do with the idea that the wildlings are descendants of a defeated foe and that the winner got Winterfell. Ygritte eludes to this when she tells Jon that the wildlings couldn’t hunt, fish, or live off the lands south of the Wall and were forced behind the Wall, because they wouldn’t follow the rules and kneel. “Magnar” is the Old Tongue word for “lord” which seems to link to the idea of a displaced lord of Winterfell. I think it’s telling that the Thenn’s are the only tribe that recognize a lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: I should do another reread, because when you get to my age you forget a lot! I just rewatched The Hangover last night and found myself saying, I do not remember this part at all, nor this, and certainly not this! LOL Yah, there's a lot that I missed or don't remember or perhaps has some other meaning now. I'm not hurried to get through it out of excitement. lol I just pick it up when I feel like it and read until I fall asleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, St Daga said: I do think your theory addresses why they didn't come looking for Jon Snow when he was north of the wall, if they were unable to see him through the ice. Yes, I have some issues with parts of his theory (the side issues), but seeing with ice solves a lot of it, as well as how they managed to "know" vaguely who they needed to be looking for. It is the pure analysis of the prologue and its implications pertaining Waymar and leaving Will and Gared alone (until Will comes out of the tree and grabs the remainder of the sword) that is imo correct. Craster doesn't work as informant much. Doesn't explain Benjen, or how the hell Craster can communicate with them. And anyway Craster's dead and will not be revisited, unless from a Bran vision through non-weirwood trees. All we have is that he was a dark selfish guy who lied and there's somethign suspicious about his larder and axes. 5 minutes ago, St Daga said: They might know how steel blades are forged. They have the ability to forge their own blades, razor sharp, thin, and looking like ice, so they could have knowledge on how to make a blade that counters their own. I think that by the time they have looked over Waymar and attacked, they know the blade they are facing is not quite what they are looking for. Their swords according to George are made of something like ice, and they can do stuff with ice we cannot imagine. I speculate those Others' swords are made of carbon monoxide. The chemical reaction of blood to carbon monoxide is that it becomes cherry red. People who die of carbon monoxide look very livelike because of this (not pale). Hence the fiery red blood that Will sees. Anyway, an ice sword is not a metal one. They destroy the sword because of the extreme low temperature of the ice sword. In order for carbon monoxide to be solid, and not a gas, it needs to be in the range of less than -200 °C. As the metal comes into contact with it, laws of entropy make it exhcnage heat and thus the metal becomes colder and colder. That's why the blade becomes "frosted" (as do the horses they ride, and thus why they only ride dead animals). The metal becomes too brittle and thus gets destroyed. According to legend they destroyed the Last Hero's sword as well. Obsidian works because those are material with fire magic in them. VS would have as well. This would protect it long enough from getting too brittle presumably. Here's what I suspect, based on George's remark he will take us farther North than we've ever been in tWoW. I think there might be a venture to the Heart of the Lands of Always Winter, where people (including Jon) aim to strike the Others at the heart, in their seat. And Jon strikes a terrible blow at them there. Not defeated yet, but something they don't want to happen (imo a strike at their Spider Goddess, aka the Queen). And it is this they're trying to prevent, sort of like Mel saw Renly defeat Stannis. Now, this wouldn't imo end the existing Others, but it would end their future. And so, in trying to prevent this future, they actually make it come about. 5 minutes ago, St Daga said: There is also the oddness involved in the "cold butchery" aspect of what they do to Waymar. He is down and then the first Other calls forth his "twins" and they all take turns stabbing Waymar, which seems to me that they could be using his blood to do something to their own weapons. His blood is noted to be red as fire in the snow. Of course, they could certainly think the blood they are bathing their blades in belongs to some prophesied enemy of theirs. But if they thought they had vanquished an enemy long looked for, why not claim the body, the cloak, the sword hilt, the shards of the sword blade? Instead they leave it all there in that snowy clearing. They destroyed the sword, the cloak and the man, but they have no use of it. I think the Others essentially are the ice spiders, or their queen is. The male ice spiders were almost all killed off during the first long Night, so she used something like a glamor to remake soldiers for herself, using human seed and souls. The ice spiders sort of survive as these mixed Others, using human seed and sould to give themselves a shape, but essentially they just don't think anywhere like humans: they're some intelligent spider species struggling to survive. That's why they don't claim the body, the cloak and the sword. Destroying it is enough. If they believed they caught the guy, and his sword and cloak, and destroyed it, it absolutely makes sense they left it at that. Nobody else North of the Wall (except for Thenns) know how to forge, and the Thenns only forge bronze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: House Royce are vassals of the Arryn’s, but I do think they are ancient enough to have existed during the Bronze Age, and their words “we remember” seem to imply that they have perhaps kept records. Royce's are FM. The petty kingdoms of the Vale eventually rallied behind a Royce to fight against the Andals. That Royce was king of all the FM Vale men, but was defeated at the Giant's Lance by the Arryn knight who got merged with the falcon "knight" of FM legend. After that defeat, the Andals demanded the surviving FM houses to bend the knee. House Royce did so. Houses that didn't were killed or chased off their lands. The mountain clans of the Vale are descendants of these harried chased off FM houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Royce's are FM. The petty kingdoms of the Vale eventually rallied behind a Royce to fight against the Andals. That Royce was king of all the FM Vale men, but was defeated at the Giant's Lance by the Arryn knight who got merged with the falcon "knight" of FM legend. After that defeat, the Andals demanded the surviving FM houses to bend the knee. House Royce did so. Houses that didn't were killed or chased off their lands. The mountain clans of the Vale are descendants of these harried chased off FM houses. Ygritte’s tale sounds like an echo or repeat of this account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 8 hours ago, LynnS said: The last thing I recall him saying was that he was having a hard time writing Bran's POV. I think the most recent thing I've heard is that he's inviting punishment from fan if he's not done in a year (Worldcon 2020). Promising, but as usual for him, vague and ambiguous. 8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: he has created something so complicated and detailed that I think the hard part is making it make sense to the average reader. Yes. Imagine, for instance, that in TWOW he's going to roll out Jon's parentage and it isn't RLJ. Well, that means he has to deal proactively in the text with all the objections from all the fans worldwide who 1) Are absolutely convinced of RLJ 2) Saw the show as absolute and final confirmation of RLJ, and who 3) Will see anything else as a turd on their doorstep That's just one issue, involving one mystery, and barely scratches the surface of the total challenges he's facing in not only turning out a book that meets his own expectations but sets up the seventh book so well, it really can be the final book. And that -- accomplishing all his goals inside a target max wordcount -- strikes me as the area where he is least skillful as a writer. I don't envy him the complexity of that challenge, and I hope he accepts whatever qualified help comes his way, if there is any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Brad Stark said: How do we know Howland was present when Lyanna died or was at the ToJ? AGOT is clear on both points. Quote Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Quote He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. This establishes Howland as one of the seven on Ned's side. And: Quote They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. However, the TOJ dream is often conflated... by those in another place... with the conscious memory Ned has in my first quote above. This is unwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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