Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[Black Crow]

Just now, LynnS said:

I think I heard this from Black Crow.  Might be part of an interview.

It was indeed an interview. Here in the UK the mummers' version on Sky Atlantic was tied into a feature called Thronecast, usually aired after each episode and consisting of studio discussions and interviews. A couple of years back [I think Season 6] the series was preceded by a "special" bringing everybody up to date before it began. Being a special it included pieces to camera by GRRM himself and in one of them he stated straight out that when Sam pinked the white walker with his dragonglass dagger "it broke the spell holding him together". It was explicit and unambiguous.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Sure, I guess my understanding is that they only remain at a "solid" stage if they can maintain their core temperature, which makes sense if they are some how encased to protect them from a regular atmospheric temperature. I guess in my head I am thinking of space suits that humans where to maintain their core temp even when space walking. "Space" is roughly -270C, and if there is a breech to the astronauts suit, they would quickly lose consciousness, and then quickly die since the human body cannot survive at this extreme temperature. So, if that protective covering around an Other that keeps them in solid form is breached, they would quickly turn to liquid first, then gas. 

Sort of, but the blue blood also must be necessary to maintain the -200 C temperature by itself. Blood circulation is what we use to not only distribute oxygen (which they might not need at all, especially since it's combustible), but also to maintain body temperature. George wanted us to know their blood is blue. I've had some discussion with others about whether it would even have a protein, but it certainly links to "spider blood". Arthropods (crabs, lobsters, most insescts, scorpions and spiders) have what is called hemolymph blood. It looks blue. And isn't considered "real" blood. Instead of hemoglobin it contains hemocyanin. Hemoglobin is a protein that contains iron to oxidize with oxygen and thus distribute oxygen within the body. This is one of the reasons we are so suspectipble to carbon monoxide poisoning. Hemocyanin doesn't use iron, but copper to bind oxygen. And it is not susceptible to carbon monoxide poisoning. It's the copper-oxide that makes a blue color. While iron-oxide makes red. Now, most life on earth has hemoglobin because it's far more efficient in binding with oxygen than hemocyanin, except in cooler and colder low oxygen environments. 

Whether or not the conditions of the Others allow for hemocyanin in the blue blood is a scientific biological discussion that takes things too far, but George certainly wanted to give us a hint that the blue blood is ice spider related. For almost every other spider-like character he uses is always framed in this blue blood symbolism.  

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It was indeed an interview. Here in the UK the mummers' version on Sky Atlantic was tied into a feature called Thronecast, usually aired after each episode and consisting of studio discussions and interviews. A couple of years back [I think Season 6] the series was preceded by a "special" bringing everybody up to date before it began. Being a special it included pieces to camera by GRRM himself and in one of them he stated straight out that when Sam pinked the white walker with his dragonglass dagger "it broke the spell holding him together". It was explicit and unambiguous.

Thank you. I remembered the quote, but not the source! And an SSM search did not bring it up. Have you tried submitting the details to Ran to include in the SSM?

 

[LynnS]

 

57 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Then if their "skin" is exposed,

It implies that they have soft tissue that is exposed, relatively speaking.  The crack sound could be piercing the skin or the sound of the armor cracking when heat is exchanged from the dragonglass.

Either way,  they do feel pain.  Which is characteristic of a living creature.  This seems comparable to Mel who was spared the agony of the fire when Jon killed Rattleshirt.  Although, she feels hunger, thirst and tires; she doesn't need to eat or sleep to survive in her current state.  She would then qualify as another form of life.    She is also not affected by the cold and goes barefoot on the Wall.  She seems to be the exact opposite of the WWs.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not uncomfortable with the idea of dream time travel, but I do find I doubt that GRRM is going to kill Jon in a cliff hanger. The Stark deaths we see that are real are not cliff hangers, such as Ned's or Robb's or even Cat's. She was dead, but it wasn't a cliffhanger. We do have some precedence for Arya seeming to die in a cliff hanger, but she is just knocked on the head by the Hounds axe and after she awakens, I think she has more control of Nymeria than she did before. A head injury, possible near death experience that made her gift strong. Even Bran's possible death at the hands of Theon feels like a cliffhanger, but it was false. I think that Bran's tower fall near death experience made him stronger, and I expect that will be what happens with Jon Snow, as well. I guess we won't know until we get another book, but I do remember that GRRM seemed displeased that the show (not that the show matters that much) went with Jon's death and resurrection, and GRRM likened Jon to a "fire wight", something I don't think he was pleased with. I don't think Jon as an "ice wight" is that different, so I really don't expect Jon's death at this stage of the story. At the end, probably. Not yet.

GRRM talked a lot about Gandalf's death, and I believe Jon's death intentionally follows this.   Gandolf is killed in 1 book and comes back as if nothing happened in the next.   I think we should expect the same, except the experience somehow changes Jon.  Neither deaths were meant to be cliff hangers, readers assume the character is unkillable until they die, and then be surprised when they turn up later. 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

It implies that they have soft tissue that is exposed, relatively speaking.  The crack sound could be piercing the skin or the sound of the armor cracking when heat is exchanged from the dragonglass.

Either way,  they do feel pain.  Which is characteristic of a living creature.  This seems comparable to Mel who was spared the agony of the fire when Jon killed Rattleshirt.  Although, she feels hunger, thirst and tires; she doesn't to need eat or sleep to survive in her current state.  She would then qualify as another form of life.    She is also not affected by the cold and goes barefoot on the Wall.  She seems to be the exact opposite of the WWs.

Yes, I consider them living entitities, but some sort of other form of life, and the opposite of Mel... except Mel herself doesn't look like who she truly is either. 

Also, we're gradually seeing KG and guards being moved more and more in a role where they're protecting a woman rather than a man. Sure, the KG are Tommen's officially, but most of them work for or protect Cersei, and Arys and now Balon work for Myrcella. We have the Queen's Men at CB (and even with Stannis). We have a giant watching out for Val. Jon himself swore service to Shyreen (not Selyse, not Val, not Stannis). And even the 6 Brazen Locusts may be following Selmy to arrest Hizdahr, but in theory do so in the name of Dany. And it seems something similar is building around Sansa. 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

On 7/12/2019 at 11:55 AM, JNR said:

He is invariably much more guarded. A typical example:

Quote

What do I do if I'm setting up a mystery that I'm going to solve in book six, and people have already guessed this mystery as of book two and they're discussing - - do I change it?

Not only is that phrased hypothetically -- "if" -- but he only says "a mystery," not "the central mystery." 

This is undeniably R+L=J, a mystery George's faithful readers have carefully and thoroughly decoded. And about which much sober and judicious analysis has been written. 

On 7/12/2019 at 5:28 PM, alienarea said:

An old cowboy went riding out one dark and windy day ...

The frozen hell reserved for Starks: Trying to catch the devil's herd across these endless skies.

On 7/12/2019 at 9:13 PM, JNR said:

However, the TOJ dream is often conflated... by those in another place... with the conscious memory Ned has in my first quote above.  This is unwise.

I wonder if what's hiding here is another baby swap. If Jon and Dany, one or both, had a Dayne parent, or were at least both present at Starfall. Did Ned arrange to send Dany into exile, to save her life? We know Ned is uncomfortable with killing children, etc. And it would make the Jon Snow baby swap at the Wall more interesting. Could even make Dany the illegitimate child of Ned and Ashara, but IMO that's a bridge too far. 

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thank you. I remembered the quote, but not the source! And an SSM search did not bring it up. Have you tried submitting the details to Ran to include in the SSM?

 

Gotcha...

 

I found the reference in an old post, but first a reminder of what Tommy Patterson the comic-book artist said anent the walkers

 

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

And then an older post in which I wrote:

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:47 PM

"In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

In other words the walkers are created and sustained by magic, which begs the rather obvious questions as to who might be working the magic and why?

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

It implies that they have soft tissue that is exposed, relatively speaking.  The crack sound could be piercing the skin or the sound of the armor cracking when heat is exchanged from the dragonglass.

Either way,  they do feel pain.  Which is characteristic of a living creature.  This seems comparable to Mel who was spared the agony of the fire when Jon killed Rattleshirt.  Although, she feels hunger, thirst and tires; she doesn't need to eat or sleep to survive in her current state.  She would then qualify as another form of life.    She is also not affected by the cold and goes barefoot on the Wall.  She seems to be the exact opposite of the WWs.

We have examples where skinchangers feel pain while in the host. Varamyr felt the eagle burn and he felt the pain when his father killed the dogs that killed his brother. It’s how his father found out he was a skinchanger.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

A lot of people are uncomfortable with this concept.  It doesn't feel right to them and the idea of slippery time conjures up the usual objections to time lords et al.  We've been told that greenseers don't experience time in a linear fashion and the rules about time don't apply but we're not talking about time lords either. We've been given an example in the Tree-Bran, Ghost-Jon encounter.  But I think the circumstances when this can happen are very specific.  It occurs in the dream world for one thing and both Bran and Jon have a third eye. Jon hasn't realized the full power of that yet.

Just as Bran has a dream of the future where he encounters Ghost-Jon; there is a lot in Jon's POV that I think echos the future.; where his character and concerns about Bran's welfare are reflected in the actions of the 3EC. 

It's a chicken and egg story; once the third eye is open, it doesn't matter which came first - Jon/3EC opening Bran's 3rd eye during the coma dream or Tree-Bran opening Jon's 3rd eye at the Skirling Pass.

https://phys.org/news/2014-04-liquid-spacetime-slippery-superfluid.html

The idea that there are different streams and eddies to the flow of space-time is also demonstrated at the Bridge of Dreams when Tyrion and co pass through bridge and repeat events leading up to their passage before they encounter the Stone Men. Some kind of reset occurred.  Einstein translates to one stone.  So the bridge of dreams might be loosely considered an Einstein-Rosen bridge.   

This harks back to Bloodraven describing time as a river.

 

I'm not at all uncomfortable with "slippery time". I think someone is manipulating events by going back and forth in time. Whether it's Bloodraven, Bran, some yet unknown character...or Jon.

I think the idea of Jon Snow not only as a powerful warg, but a powerful greenseer as well, is absolutely worth exploring. I don't recall coming across it anywhere before.

[LynnS]

57 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'm not at all uncomfortable with "slippery time". I think someone is manipulating events by going back and forth in time. Whether it's Bloodraven, Bran, some yet unknown character...or Jon.

I think the idea of Jon Snow not only as a powerful warg, but a powerful greenseer as well, is absolutely worth exploring. I don't recall coming across it anywhere before.

Well, I've been harping on it for a while now, since I first notice the Tree-Bran/Ghost-Jon encounter occurred before Bran has made it to BR's cave and was still hiding the crypts of Winterfell.  LOL   But the time thing is loaded with Time Lord associations which people don't like in general. 

I'm not sure that he can manipulate events in the past; but the near past perhaps, as we see with Jon and vice-versa if Jon is The Crow: so long as they are connected in the dream world in some way.

Bran will have the ability to see what occurred in the past and I think he and Jon have to affect events in the present to avoid the future outcome that the 3EC shows Bran.  Like Bran he may experience a future event, that ripples back to his dreams in the past.  It only gets more confusing from here.  LOL

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think I heard this from Black Crow.  Might be part of an interview.

It was indeed an interview. Here in the UK the mummers' version on Sky Atlantic was tied into a feature called Thronecast, usually aired after each episode and consisting of studio discussions and interviews. A couple of years back [I think Season 6] the series was preceded by a "special" bringing everybody up to date before it began. Being a special it included pieces to camera by GRRM himself and in one of them he stated straight out that when Sam pinked the white walker with his dragonglass dagger "it broke the spell holding him together". It was explicit and unambiguous.

Thanks! I will have to see if I can find this video.

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

Thanks! I will have to see if I can find this video.

 

I've been looking.  It seems to be buried in one of the Thronecasts but I haven't had time to go through the all.

I looked at this one:

 

[St Daga]

57 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I think the idea of Jon Snow not only as a powerful warg, but a powerful greenseer as well, is absolutely worth exploring. I don't recall coming across it anywhere before.

I'm not sure if it was earlier in this heresy thread or in the last one, I mentioned that I think both Jon and Rickon are worth looking at as greenseer's, based on the eye color of their direwolves. Red and green are colors that were seen as special to the eye of the CotF in regards to greenseer's. 

Quote

 

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

 

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers." ADWD-Bran III

 

 

 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM talked a lot about Gandalf's death, and I believe Jon's death intentionally follows this.   Gandolf is killed in 1 book and comes back as if nothing happened in the next.   I think we should expect the same, except the experience somehow changes Jon.  Neither deaths were meant to be cliff hangers, readers assume the character is unkillable until they die, and then be surprised when they turn up later. 

I have always interpreted this to mean that when Gandolf died, he should have stayed dead, and if he did not, then he should be significantly changed.  Not just a white version of his grey self! So, Ned dies and stay's dead, while Cat dies and comes back as a horrible, vengeful version of herself. As to Beric's death, I am not sure we even knew he was dead and resurrected several times before we see his death and apparent miracle return from the dead in Arya's POV (although there are hints in regards to the gossip one hears about his many types of death). And even if Beric is a different kind of walking dead than Catelyn, they are both changed by their deaths, Beric a little more with each death while Cat is very different from the moment she reopens her eyes. 

I can see how people think this might also pertain to Jon Snow, but I am not convinced. At this point, I would just like the story to continue so we have an answer, whether I am correct or not! 

[Melifeather]

Bloodraven claims the past cannot be changed, so if a greenseer has any power over the people of Westeros it has to do with manipulating the future by trying to bring about a different outcome. History repeats itself so knowing what happened is necessary before attempting to change the future.

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Sort of, but the blue blood also must be necessary to maintain the -200 C temperature by itself. Blood circulation is what we use to not only distribute oxygen (which they might not need at all, especially since it's combustible), but also to maintain body temperature. George wanted us to know their blood is blue. I've had some discussion with others about whether it would even have a protein, but it certainly links to "spider blood". Arthropods (crabs, lobsters, most insescts, scorpions and spiders) have what is called hemolymph blood. It looks blue. And isn't considered "real" blood. Instead of hemoglobin it contains hemocyanin. Hemoglobin is a protein that contains iron to oxidize with oxygen and thus distribute oxygen within the body. This is one of the reasons we are so suspectipble to carbon monoxide poisoning. Hemocyanin doesn't use iron, but copper to bind oxygen. And it is not susceptible to carbon monoxide poisoning. It's the copper-oxide that makes a blue color. While iron-oxide makes red. Now, most life on earth has hemoglobin because it's far more efficient in binding with oxygen than hemocyanin, except in cooler and colder low oxygen environments. 

Whether or not the conditions of the Others allow for hemocyanin in the blue blood is a scientific biological discussion that takes things too far, but George certainly wanted to give us a hint that the blue blood is ice spider related. For almost every other spider-like character he uses is always framed in this blue blood symbolism.  

Other creatures that have this kind of blood are octopuses and squids, both of which could hint at the kraken's of our story. There is something to Euron's "smiling eye" his blue eye, that doesn't fit with the rest of the Greyjoy's, as well as how Aeron has a vision of Euron as a kraken. Kraken's are a perhaps a bit like the spider's of the sea, able to propel gracefully in the water, but have quite a fearful and destructive reputation, at least in world mythos. 

Spiders on land and kraken's in the water might have a very important tie to each other in the story.

As to your thoughts on the hemocyanin, I find it interesting that it contains copper, while we have the idea of hemoglobin containing iron. The Other's are said to hate iron, which might make sense since copper might be an important part of their life cycle. This makes me think of the idea of bronze weapons, which are an alloy of copper and tin. We know the Thenn's live closest to the "lands of always winter" and bronze is their weapon and armor, a weapon made partly of copper, which might not be harmful to the Other's. Perhaps this is why they coexist closely, because one doesn't threaten the other?

ETA- Just to add a little tinfoil, I will say that I have always found that the Greyjoy symbol looks a bit like a human uterus with fallopian tubes/overies. So, perhaps if this idea of a spider queen does apply, then a uterus makes sense as she would be the uterus of her own type of lifeforms!

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bloodraven claims the past cannot be changed, so if a greenseer has any power over the people of Westeros it has to do with manipulating the future by trying to bring about a different outcome. History repeats itself so knowing what happened is necessary before attempting to change the future.

Do you think he could be telling Bran this in a way of dissuading Bran from trying, either because Bloodraven doesn't want things changed too much, or because if Bran tries, he will make things much, much worse?

[Brad Stark]

I am a big fan of Netflix's Dark, anyone else watch?  It has a story around time travel where future events can cause past events, but actually changing something is either very difficult or impossible.   That show probably has it's own rules, but I think GRRM is doing something similar.   Bran's current and future actions can cause past events, but his ability to actually make decisions and alterations is limited or nonexistent. 

[Melifeather]

40 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Do you think he could be telling Bran this in a way of dissuading Bran from trying, either because Bloodraven doesn't want things changed too much, or because if Bran tries, he will make things much, much worse?

I don’t think he was lying. Bran has access to the weirwoods and can see past, present, and possible futures so if Bloodraven had lied he’d soon learn of it.

BC opened the new thread already, so see ya over there...