Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect the Stark’s frozen hell is more in line with becoming like Coldhands and waiting in the crypts until needed. I’m thinking it’s an advantage to be cold and dead in order to defeat white walkers. What is dead can never die and all that. Ironically Ned was freed from this fate when his body was removed from his bones.

Yes, the Kings of Winter.  What on earth does that mean. And perhaps the Crown in Winter is hidden here.  The crown made of bronze with nine iron swords.  This more than anything reminds me of Black Crow's allusion to the Nazgul.  Right now there is no King of Winter and the Nazgul are leaderless.  Perhaps the Others meant to conscript Jon Snow for that purpose.

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect that they need the cold to exist, but that when they are around they bring about an intense cold. I believe it was LynnS's idea that they can travel upon the wind and materialize at will. She pointed to the snow dropping off the trees prior to their appearance as evidence.

The might also be considered sleepers (as in sleeper cells) something that has been activated by the return of the comet:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Rose petals referring to the souls of Starks.

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes that is a strong impression for me.  I also suspect they are looking for Jon but missed the mark.  The fight itself seemed to be something of a trial by combat.   I also think that the WW realizes that it's not Jon Snow when he looks at the sword.  He seems to boast or gloat and then toy with Waymar.

I do like the idea that the Others can use ice as a mirror or reflecting surface to spy out the land; but if we are following the tree-clues, perhaps we should look to the Sentinel Trees and Soldier Pines as well.

As to the Wall, could it be a source of magic used by the WW to construct their ice bodies?  Melisandre tells Jon that there is power in the Wall and within himself that he can use if he wished.  Indeed I think Melisandre also draws on the power of the Wall during the Rattleshirt sacrifice.

I don't think this is just reflection.   The Wall itself is described as a sword by Benjen:

Or a sword without a hilt? Is the sword Ice belonging to House Stark?  What is the connection between House Stark and the Night's Watch and the Wall?

I agree the Wall is a "sword" constructed by House Stark as a defensive structure, so the mirrored ice may be an unintended quality. This would explain the necessity of the mysterious Black Gate. It does seem specifically built for the Watch to use, so sweetsunray's suggestion that it allows the Night's Watch to avoid detection is a valid and useful purpose.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, the Kings of Winter.  What on earth does that mean. And perhaps the Crown in Winter is hidden here.  The crown made of bronze with nine iron swords.  This more than anything reminds me of Black Crow's allusion to the Nazgul.  Right now there is no King of Winter and the Nazgul are leaderless.  Perhaps the Others meant to conscript Jon Snow for that purpose.

I agree with sweetsunray's assessment that the Others meant to kill Jon Snow.

Jon's Stark blood could allow him to become like Coldhands and they would have wanted to eliminate that possible threat, but once Mance met Jon and realized that he had no knowledge of this ability, he adjusts his plans and decides to try and use him to help get the wildlings through the Wall. 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree with sweetsunray's assessment that the Others meant to kill Jon Snow.

Jon's Stark blood could allow him to become like Coldhands and they would have wanted to eliminate that possible threat, but once Mance met Jon and realized that he had no knowledge of this ability, he adjusts his plans and decides to try and use him to help get the wildlings through the Wall. 

I too think that's a very strong possibility.

[JNR]

On 7/10/2019 at 12:57 PM, Black Crow said:

GRRM says he knows too much about the central mystery.

Well, a fan said that GRRM said it's the central mystery.  But is that true?

In all the SSMs and all the media interviews and all the private correspondence that directly quote GRRM, going back more than twenty years, there is no example of GRRM writing or uttering such a phrase-- not even once.  

He is invariably much more guarded. A typical example:

Quote

What do I do if I'm setting up a mystery that I'm going to solve in book six, and people have already guessed this mystery as of book two and they're discussing - - do I change it?

Not only is that phrased hypothetically -- "if" -- but he only says "a mystery," not "the central mystery." 

I find it hard to believe he changed his policy on the occasion reported by the fan.  It reminds me of the similarly doubtful idea that GRRM would choose to reveal new secrets in the app... which he didn't write, and also didn't endorse (that was a minion).

On 7/10/2019 at 12:57 PM, Black Crow said:

The disciples of R+L=J instantly assume that means he will reveal all about their boy on account of being at the tower of joy.

Agreed.

On 7/10/2019 at 12:57 PM, Black Crow said:

In actual fact he certainly knows about the Starks, of Ice and Fire and so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew.  Is it not more likely that this is the central issue rather than Jon Snow's parentage?

Well, it's not clear to me why, if he knows ancient truths now forgotten, he doesn't just tell the Starks.

I have no reason to doubt he was one of Ned's best, most trusted friends, as we're told repeatedly in canon.  I imagine his kids would pony up such useful intel, if they had it, to Bran.  So I suspect they don't have it.

I'm not sure the Reeds even know the meaning of their unique vow to the Starks.  It strikes me as one more aspect of the Musgrave Ritual -- a thing still done, though the origin and meaning of it is lost.  And it's easy to see why.  Thousands of years have likely gone by since that origin, as opposed to only a few hundred in the case of the Holmes story.

However, we do know for sure that Howland was present when Lyanna died.  We also know he was present at the TOJ.  So I think it's fair to suppose he knows important things, on that subject, that the reader does not.

I just doubt that Jon's parentage is "the central mystery" in a story that hasn't even got a protagonist.   ASOIAF is not about one person, but about the Second Long Night and the events leading up to it, and how all that connects to Westeros' history in a larger sense.  There is a central mystery there IMO, but it's not about Jon.

[JNR]

On 7/10/2019 at 1:12 PM, LynnS said:

When I read Bran's coma dream. 

Interesting.  I think it first clicked for me when I read the TOJ dream, but I wouldn't swear to that. 

For most it never clicks at all.  I remember laughing when I read Damon Lindelof's remarks that GRRM had no business critiquing LOST, re mysteries or puzzles, because GRRM writes fantasy and fantasy has none.

This quote by GRRM, inspiring that response, also tells us quite a bit about what GRRM expects of himself in writing his own ending, and the standard he expects others to judge him by:

Quote

I watched Lost in its entire run and I was fascinated, but you know, even as early as the second season and certainly the third season, I started saying, how the hell are they going to pull all of this together? If they pull all of this together, it’s going to be the greatest show in the history of television, man. They better know how to pull all of this together! And then when I reached the end and they hadn’t pulled it altogether, in fact, they left a big turd on my doorstep? I was pretty upset, you know.

He outlasted me, I'm afraid.  It was clear to me in season two they would never be able to pull it together (much like BSG at roughly the same time). 

But GRRM can pull it off... if he ever writes it at all.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, JNR said:

But GRRM can pull it off... if he ever writes it at all. 

I sure hope he re-engages because he is brilliant.  I am really enjoying my re-read and that doesn't happen for me often.  Although I do keep a collection of my favorite sci-fi authors and read them again on occasion.  

I'm puzzled by the distance he's put between himself, his fans and the book at this point.  This has been a long hiatus but what do I know about him personally besides nothing.  I wonder if the pressure of instant world-wide attention just became too damn much, not to mention all the turds that were eventually thrown his way.   The last thing I recall him saying was that he was having a hard time writing Bran's POV.  I'm reminded of Peter Jackson filming the last scene of LOTR and he kept asking for another take.  He just couldn't end it and when he did, it brought him to tears.  I fear something like that is going on with GRRM.  He's also had to deal with a lot of personal grief over the last few years as well.   I know this was a big factor in Jean Auel's long hiatus.  People mock that but it's not funny if you are susceptible to complicated grieving.

[Melifeather]

17 minutes ago, JNR said:

Interesting.  I think it first clicked for me when I read the TOJ dream, but I wouldn't swear to that. 

For most it never clicks at all.  I remember laughing when I read Damon Lindelof's remarks that GRRM had no business critiquing LOST, re mysteries or puzzles, because GRRM writes fantasy and fantasy has none.

This quote by GRRM, inspiring that response, also tells us quite a bit about what GRRM expects of himself in writing his own ending, and the standard he expects others to judge him by:

He outlasted me, I'm afraid.  It was clear to me in season two they would never be able to pull it together (much like BSG at roughly the same time). 

But GRRM can pull it off... if he ever writes it at all.

I have faith that he will pull it off as well, and that's probably why it's taking him so long. He's created a monumental work of fantasy - epic in fact, and I think he just wants to get it "right". He doesn't want to drop a deuce, but he has created something so complicated and detailed that I think the hard part is making it make sense to the average reader. 

[Melifeather]

Just now, LynnS said:

I sure hope he re-engages because he is brilliant.  I am really enjoying my re-read and that doesn't happen for me often.  Although I do keep a collection of my favorite sci-fi authors and read them again on occasion.  

I should do another reread, because when you get to my age you forget a lot! I just rewatched The Hangover last night and found myself saying, I do not remember this part at all, nor this, and certainly not this! LOL

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I'm puzzled by the distance he's put between himself, his fans and the book at this point.  This has been a long hiatus but what do I know about him personally besides nothing.  I wonder if the pressure of instant world-wide attention just became too damn much, not to mention all the turds that were eventually thrown his way.   The last thing I recall him saying was that he was having a hard time writing Bran's POV.  I'm reminded of Peter Jackson filming the last scene of LOTR and he kept asking for another take.  He just couldn't end it and when he did, it brought him to tears.  I fear something like that is going on with GRRM.  He's also had to deal with a lot of personal grief over the last few years as well.   I know this was a big factor in Jean Auel's long hiatus.  People mock that but it's not funny if you are susceptible to complicated grieving.

I think he's distanced himself, because of the number of rabid fans. He's probably had his fill of crazed encounters. I too wonder about if he fears ending his epic story. He's lived with his baby for what, over 23 years?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well, your Plutonian Others essay (with Kissed by Fire and The Fattest Leach) is a wonderfully executed piece of writing.  AND I had forgotten that you wrote Craster's Black Blood, an essay that has stuck in mind my mind for some time.  I recall that I enjoyed that one too and definately worth a re-read.

We've recently opened a different line of inquiry about the Others and their origin, that the WW are related to the Stark mystery.  Black Crow has suggested that Starks are extremely powerful skinschangers who can construct a body of ice, if appropriate measure are not taken to confine them after death.   This is part of the Stark Musgrave Ritual that has been forgotten, something that is reflected in the Stark words which are all that is remembered about their history and the mystery of the crypts.

In this scenario, the Stark skinchangers can float across the landscape after death, in the manner of Varamyr before his soul is collected and confined.  We question whether Starks can chose to return to their body in the manner of Coldhands, or construct a body of ice and become a WW, something Ned Stark refers to as the frozen hell reserved for Starks.  

Rather than being a different species of humanoid; the Others are constructed with magic using ice and snow.  George tells us that when Sam pierces the armor of the WW; that he breaks the spell holding it together.  Their essential substance is the soul or shadow-soul (my interpretation) encased in a thin armor of ice and a bones like milkwater.  These are the only substance that give any weight.

Sam's description:

There isn't much bulk or weight to an object that is sword-slim. The sentinel tree sheds it's burden of snow and out pops a WW.  Stannis an Melisandre give the Others another origin:

So these Others seem to be created by magic and dispatched by magic.  The question is what animates them and gives them intelligence.

I've questioned whether the Others actually need a glamor if their armor is composed of an ice mirror.  That would essentially reflect the environment as a form of camouflage not requiring any kind of glamor. 

I have to break here but will come back a little later.

 

Thanks for explaining, Black Crow's concept. The Plutonian Others does not touch upon ice magic much, other than that it must be required in their existence as they are now to remain so deep cold, and that evidently obsidian breaks the spell. But one should note also that Samwell hit an "artery" (for lack of better word) and that this blue blood is likely essential in preserving their cool temps. The mirror and camouflaging stuff with the armor  is the first step towards ice magic: providing a method to see (apart from the wight eyes) and the camouflage. But we do have vague ideas that they use human souls and seed (from Craster's babies for example and the people of the frozen shore) as well.

Well there are two layers to camouflaging: one is to blend in the environment, and for that the armor as ice mirror is sufficient. That's like camouflage cloth. The other is to make something look and appear entirely different than what it really is. The parallels hint a lot to there being more than just "blending in the environment". And the glamor parallel of Mance is a good analogy to it.

First you have Rattleshirt who wears armor made of bones (an exoskeleton so to speak). But then you have Mance being glamored and wearing Rattleshirt's "exoskeleton" to appear like Rattleshirt. Rattleshirt wearing the exoskeleton is like Others becoming invisible wearing their ice mirror armor. But what if they are also truly something else, and not "humanoid" at all, and their "form" is another layer of camouflage. It wouldn't exactly be a glamor spellwise, but comparable, like wearing dead faces is comparable to a glamor (it does the same thing), but just another form.

This double layering of camouflage is also present with the manticore: first it looks like scarab, but when the manticore unfolds it looks like a scorpion but its exoskeleton includes a terrifying humanoid face, except that's just yet another camouflage trick.

The manticore and the glamor also has another double layering:

• the manticore in scarab form is mistaken for a jewel (not an actual insect), but then it's another insect that might have "armor" (an exoskeleton) but that is easily crushed by Selmy's staff.
• a glamore uses a jewel stone, but without the "bones" that Mance wears it's hard to maintain the glamor

This jewel-fragile thing is also present in Rohanne Webber's appearance at the Chequy river towards the end of the Sworn Sword. She wears a green armor that looks beautiful like a jewel, and it makes her look like a dragonfly or another insect.

The Others' armor is referenced by Will as being "delicate". That word has a dual meaning: "fragile" and "elegant/beautiful". That's an odd word choice to describe armor. If George did not want the reader to mistake the meaning to include "fragile" why didn't he just use "elegant" or "graceful". But no, he picked the one word that also covers the meaning of "fragile". And George hasn't used that word much in the books at all. And especially with the manticore we get a description of it that illustrates both meanings well: jewellike, but crushable with a staff.

The Brazen Beasts are also of interest. Here we get a reversal of the manticore example: humans wearing the faces of beasts to hide their identity. And though initially we get a lot of mammal masks, over time we see more reptilian and amphibian masks and eventually arthropod masks, until we have 6 Brazen Locusts. These are masks, but they are forged of metal, the same metal (brass) that is used for their armor. So the "faces" are part of the armor. And brass was the material of the platter that Jorah and Dany used as rearview mirror at Qarth to spy on Belwas and Selmy following her, right before she's gifted the manticore in a jewel box.

So, the Others as we have seen them, I'm very sure, are not what they appear to be, and it goes beyond "blending in the environment".

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, a fan said that GRRM said it's the central mystery.  But is that true?

In all the SSMs and all the media interviews and all the private correspondence that directly quote GRRM, going back more than twenty years, there is no example of GRRM writing or uttering such a phrase-- not even once.  

He is invariably much more guarded. A typical example:

Not only is that phrased hypothetically -- "if" -- but he only says "a mystery," not "the central mystery." 

I find it hard to believe he changed his policy on the occasion reported by the fan.  It reminds me of the similarly doubtful idea that GRRM would choose to reveal new secrets in the app... which he didn't write, and also didn't endorse (that was a minion).

Agreed.

Well, it's not clear to me why, if he knows ancient truths now forgotten, he doesn't just tell the Starks.

I have no reason to doubt he was one of Ned's best, most trusted friends, as we're told repeatedly in canon.  I imagine his kids would pony up such useful intel, if they had it, to Bran.  So I suspect they don't have it.

I'm not sure the Reeds even know the meaning of their unique vow to the Starks.  It strikes me as one more aspect of the Musgrave Ritual -- a thing still done, though the origin and meaning of it is lost.  And it's easy to see why.  Thousands of years have likely gone by since that origin, as opposed to only a few hundred in the case of the Holmes story.

However, we do know for sure that Howland was present when Lyanna died.  We also know he was present at the TOJ.  So I think it's fair to suppose he knows important things, on that subject, that the reader does not.

I just doubt that Jon's parentage is "the central mystery" in a story that hasn't even got a protagonist.   ASOIAF is not about one person, but about the Second Long Night and the events leading up to it, and how all that connects to Westeros' history in a larger sense.  There is a central mystery there IMO, but it's not about Jon.

How do we know Howland was present when Lyanna died or was at the ToJ?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I want to expand a little bit on this idea. The "fire side" has two ways to "see": glass candles and via the flames, so It's only logical that the "ice side" have two ways also: weirwoods and mirrored ice. 

I don't believe it's the weirwoods at all, but we can use them as a parallel to deconstruct how one can see:

• A greenseer doesn't actually need a tree let alone a face with eyes carved into it to see remotely. The faces with eyes on the trees is a "training" tool. It's easier for a greenseer trainee to learn to look through the eyes of a carved face in a tree to look. A fully trained greenseer can use faceless trees.
• And they can use eyes of skinchanged animals.
• But non-greenseers can use either dreams (greensight) or animals (skinchangers) to see too

Withe fire magic:

• you can use the fire element directly: flames. But only gifted people like Thoros or Mel can learn to do that. This is the raw element.
• glass candles are objects made of obsidian, which has magical fire properties. It requires fire magic to make them, but non-gifted people can use it to remote-see.

So for ice magic:

• there are all sorts of reasons to support the proposal they can use ice mirroring surfaces to see. This would be the raw element.
• but you also need an "eyes" counterpart, and that would be the wights whose eyes turned this deep blue ice color.

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Thanks for explaining, Black Crow's concept. The Plutonian Others does not touch upon ice magic much, other than that it must be required in their existence as they are now to remain so deep cold, and that evidently obsidian breaks the spell. But one should note also that Samwell hit an "artery" (for lack of better word) and that this blue blood is likely essential in preserving their cool temps. The mirror and camouflaging stuff with the armor  is the first step towards ice magic: providing a method to see (apart from the wight eyes) and the camouflage. But we do have vague ideas that they use human souls and seed (from Craster's babies for example and the people of the frozen shore) as well.

Well there are two layers to camouflaging: one is to blend in the environment, and for that the armor as ice mirror is sufficient. That's like camouflage cloth. The other is to make something look and appear entirely different than what it really is. The parallels hint a lot to there being more than just "blending in the environment". And the glamor parallel of Mance is a good analogy to it.

First you have Rattleshirt who wears armor made of bones (an exoskeleton so to speak). But then you have Mance being glamored and wearing Rattleshirt's "exoskeleton" to appear like Rattleshirt. Rattleshirt wearing the exoskeleton is like Others becoming invisible wearing their ice mirror armor. But what if they are also truly something else, and not "humanoid" at all, and their "form" is another layer of camouflage. It wouldn't exactly be a glamor spellwise, but comparable, like wearing dead faces is comparable to a glamor (it does the same thing), but just another form.

This double layering of camouflage is also present with the manticore: first it looks like scarab, but when the manticore unfolds it looks like a scorpion but its exoskeleton includes a terrifying humanoid face, except that's just yet another camouflage trick.

The manticore and the glamor also has another double layering:

• the manticore in scarab form is mistaken for a jewel (not an actual insect), but then it's another insect that might have "armor" (an exoskeleton) but that is easily crushed by Selmy's staff.
• a glamore uses a jewel stone, but without the "bones" that Mance wears it's hard to maintain the glamor

This jewel-fragile thing is also present in Rohanne Webber's appearance at the Chequy river towards the end of the Sworn Sword. She wears a green armor that looks beautiful like a jewel, and it makes her look like a dragonfly or another insect.

The Others' armor is referenced by Will as being "delicate". That word has a dual meaning: "fragile" and "elegant/beautiful". That's an odd word choice to describe armor. If George did not want the reader to mistake the meaning to include "fragile" why didn't he just use "elegant" or "graceful". But no, he picked the one word that also covers the meaning of "fragile". And George hasn't used that word much in the books at all. And especially with the manticore we get a description of it that illustrates both meanings well: jewellike, but crushable with a staff.

The Brazen Beasts are also of interest. Here we get a reversal of the manticore example: humans wearing the faces of beasts to hide their identity. And though initially we get a lot of mammal masks, over time we see more reptilian and amphibian masks and eventually arthropod masks, until we have 6 Brazen Locusts. These are masks, but they are forged of metal, the same metal (brass) that is used for their armor. So the "faces" are part of the armor. And brass was the material of the platter that Jorah and Dany used as rearview mirror at Qarth to spy on Belwas and Selmy following her, right before she's gifted the manticore in a jewel box.

So, the Others as we have seen them, I'm very sure, are not what they appear to be, and it goes beyond "blending in the environment".

You've convinced me to keep this open as an option.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

This jewel-fragile thing is also present in Rohanne Webber's appearance at the Chequy river towards the end of the Sworn Sword. She wears a green armor that looks beautiful like a jewel, and it makes her look like a dragonfly or another insect.

 

I've mentioned this to you before in your Plutonian thread, but I think it bears repeating. Rohanne Webber is a character inspired by Robert Jordan's character Nynaeve who is an Aes Sedai. Both characters share the characteristics of having a long braid which they "tug" when annoyed or thinking. I think Robert Jordan based his Aes Sedai on the Irish spelling for the sidhe, which is both Aos Si and aes sídhe - even though Jordan's pronunciation is quite different. Jordan took inspiration from the sidhe and made them human. IMO GRRM has expanded upon Jordan's inspiration and inserted a parallel between Rohanne and his sidhe made of ice - like you say, with their fragile, beautiful, and jewel-like armor.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

So for ice magic:

• there are all sorts of reasons to support the proposal they can use ice mirroring surfaces to see. This would be the raw element.
• but you also need an "eyes" counterpart, and that would be the wights whose eyes turned this deep blue ice color.

Circling back to your assertion that the white walkers were looking for Jon Snow and his sword. If you've mentioned this before I apologize for repeating it, but since Waymar Royce was killed prior to Jon even announcing his intention to take the black, the mirrored ice provides prophetic images similar to how Melisandre saw Jon's "sister" fleeing from a marriage on a horse and riding to the Wall. The white walkers must have seen future Jon, but since they didn't know for sure who the man in the black cloak was with the dragonblade sword, they carefully inspected the sword to see if it was Longclaw before engaging Waymar in "the dance". 

Another thought - if it was the sword that they were looking for, it may have been the reason why they sent Othor and Jafer to attack Jeor Mormont.

Quick question - does anybody know if Jon had Longclaw with him when he lived with the wildlings for a time? I'm thinking the absence of this sword may be why they didn't kill him on sight.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes that is a strong impression for me.  I also suspect they are looking for Jon but missed the mark.  The fight itself seemed to be something of a trial by combat.   I also think that the WW realizes that it's not Jon Snow when he looks at the sword.  He seems to boast or gloat and then toy with Waymar. 

I don't think they ever realized it until Jon showed up at the Wall, and didn't realize they had the wrong sword until Jon shows Longclaw this way and that way in the yard for "all" to see.

The order of gloating and toying isn't after merely looking at the sword. The Other looks at it and imo apprehensive (because that's when the other 5 come out of the darkness) then starts to fight. He gloats and mocks when he manages to pierce Royce and draws blood. In the meantime the sword gets frosted over, until the metal is so cold it becomes brittle and ultimately breaks and shatters. That's when they all laugh icily. So, basically it reads like "Lol, is this the guy we feared so much? He ain't half as good as I expected him. See, I pierced him and he bleeds." And then the sword is kaput and they all laugh "lmao! that was super easy!"

Why didn't they realize it was the wrong man and wrong sword? Because they absolutely obliterated the cloak (overkill) and then they use Royce to kill Will once he picked up the remainder of the sword.

We also know they didn't use any swords to kill the wildling raiders: Will didn't see any blood or wounds. In fact they were frozen to death (flash frozen?), as even the woman who was on guard in the sentinel/soldier pine was dead frozen in the tree. If they had wanted to kill Will, they could have frozen him to death, like that far-seeing wildling woman. But they never bothered. And had he remained in the tree that made every effort to glue him to it during the whole of the night, he would have lived. Only when he picks up the remainder of the sword, wanting to take it as evidence, Waymar throttles him.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do like the idea that the Others can use ice as a mirror or reflecting surface to spy out the land; but if we are following the tree-clues, perhaps we should look to the Sentinel Trees and Soldier Pines as well.

The tree clues all point to the trees trying to protect people and to warn them. The snow plopping is also featured in the chapter of Bran when they are near to the cave and walk into the wight ambush. One of the trees drops snow on Bran to hide him from the wight. Even Waymar's remark to Gared about what he fears follows that: what you afraid from some wind blowing, leaves rustling and a wolf howling? The Others use stealth to hunt and ambush their prey. All the noise the trees make, the noise of the wolf and owl nearby, louder and louder almost, until the branches try to pry the sword and cloak away from Royce is the opposite of stealth. The tree Will crawled into had thousands of "needles" and yet never pricked him, and it gives off a lot of sap to glue his hands and cheek to it. It's signaling "stay here, hidden, stick to me".

And so the snow plopping right before the Other appeared to kill Grenn, Small Paul and Sam alerted all three. The Other came close to get to them unawares, but not completely. The tree dropping the snow warned them something was coming.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

As to the Wall, could it be a source of magic used by the WW to construct their ice bodies?  Melisandre tells Jon that there is power in the Wall and within himself that he can use if he wished.  Indeed I think Melisandre also draws on the power of the Wall during the Rattleshirt sacrifice.

I don't think the Others use it to build their bodies. The Others predate the Wall. But it's evidence that something like "ice magic" exists. I do agree that Mel (ab)uses the locked magical power within the Wall. It's dangerous imo, because the magic in that Wall is not infinite and is required to keep the Others from raching magically beyond the Wall.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think this is just reflection.   The Wall itself is described as a sword by Benjen:

Or a sword without a hilt? Is the sword Ice belonging to House Stark?  What is the connection between House Stark and the Night's Watch and the Wall?

Not the complete Wall. Only the section east of CB is likened to a sword. So from Eastwatch to Castle Black, the Wall is a sword. And from Castle Black to the Shadow Tower it's a serpent. A reflecting "shield", a sword/lance, and a serpent/dragon coming together at Castle Black. That's St George, aka Serwyn of the Mirror Shield imagery.  Bowen Marsh held the pointy ends, the hilt is held at Eastwatch...though I like the magic is a sword without a hilt reference if we think of Mel reveling in all that magical power locked within the Wall to use it for stuff like glamors etc...

I don't know the connection between House Stark and the NW and the Wall, but I do know that Jon is the sole present character who ticks off the complete Serwyn of the Mirror Shield stuff we know about Serwyn, and that the mirror shield is his since Jeor died. The Wall is said to glisten and to shine, etc, in various POVs from the get go (nad thus was always a mirror), but George only uses the word "reflect" in relation to the Wall in Jon's POVs after Jeor's death, way before Jon even was elected LC. He wished and prayed the Wall would kill wildling climbers, and it did so. Eventually it's not just "his". When he sees his own reflection in the ice in aDwD, Jon X, Jon and the Wall are becoming one. We see this image again in his dream, where he's armored in "black ice" and all by himself defends the Wall from those climbing it.

So when Wick strikes at him and causes him to bleed, Wick struck at the Wall too. And when blood lands on a mirror in George's stories the skinner watching behind the mirror can reach into the world. The mirror then becomes a doorway.

George uses mirrors much in the similar way in older stories. In Skin Trade someone hunts and skins werewolves. One of the protagonists is a werewolf, and his blood is drawn and falls on a mirror. That's when the skinner comes through and attempts to kill him. The guy escapes by turning into a werewolf and flees, requiring to remain a werewolf and be treated by a vet for a long while after in order to heal. But eventually, when healed enough, he can become a man again.

Man, wolf, man.

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Circling back to your assertion that the white walkers were looking for Jon Snow and his sword. If you've mentioned this before I apologize for repeating it, but since Waymar Royce was killed prior to Jon even announcing his intention to take the black, the mirrored ice provides prophetic images similar to how Melisandre saw Jon's "sister" fleeing from a marriage on a horse and riding to the Wall. The white walkers must have seen future Jon, but since they didn't know for sure who the man in the black cloak was with the dragonblade sword, they carefully inspected the sword to see if it was Longclaw before engaging Waymar in "the dance". 

Another thought - if it was the sword that they were looking for, it may have been the reason why they sent Othor and Jafer to attack Jeor Mormont.

Quick question - does anybody know if Jon had Longclaw with him when he lived with the wildlings for a time? I'm thinking the absence of this sword may be why they didn't kill him on sight

Yes, I think the "ice mirror" (I suspect an ice lake) at the Heart of the Lands of Always Winter is a magical mirror that can show future like flames can. So, yes, I do think they've seen glimpses of a man looking like Jon with a rich black cloak and black/dark steel sword harming them.

Now, consider ice used as a window... it will distort and haze imagery. It's like looking through a steamed window so to speak. So, it's not a perfect image as with a glass mirror. So a detail like the hilt would not be something they would have been able to make out. They just now it's a very dark/almost black blade.

Othor and Jafer and the Others didn't know Jeor had it. He never carried the sword at the Wall himself. Stuck it away for it reminded him of his son's shameful actions and choices.

Yes, Jon has longclaw on him when he lives with the wildlings. He's not a prisoner anymore once he convinces Mance to give him a wildling cloak and gets his sword back. The Others just never knew Jon was with the wildings or the Skirling Pass before that: he never went near ice and with the wildlings he wore what wildlings wore, not black. His NW clothes and cloak are rolled up in a pack and ride along on his garron.

[St Daga]

On 7/8/2019 at 12:48 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Well, there are lots of sapphires in the books. They decorate rings, sword hilts, even armor (Loras's) - and used in deceptions like when Jaime told Vargo Hoat that Brienne's father had lots of sapphires.

Rubies are mentioned far more often than sapphires in the books. Are there any other instances of sapphire's being used for deception besides the instance with Brienne? Although sapphires certainly play a strong role in Brienne's story. Illyrio wears sapphire's but he wears many other jewel's as well, although much of what he says and does could be considered to be less than true. I think it's interesting that Mance points out his queen does not wear sapphires (if sapphires are associated with the Other's, this might mean Mance is not aligned with them) and I think Waymar Royce's sword hilt had sapphires in it. Sapphire's also seem associated with the Arryn's.

"Secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires"-is something Varys says to Tyrion. So, perhaps sapphires are more associated with secret's?

 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Jon has longclaw on him when he lives with the wildlings. He's not a prisoner anymore once he convinces Mance to give him a wildling cloak and gets his sword back. The Others just never knew Jon was with the wildings or the Skirling Pass before that: he never went near ice and with the wildlings he wore what wildlings wore, not black. His NW clothes and cloak are rolled up in a pack and ride along on his garron.

I should have done a query myself before even posting that idea! I'm searching A Storm of Swords right now and Longclaw is named frequently while Jon recalls killing Qhorin, and later when fighting the wildlings at Queen's Crown. If the wildlings hadn't noticed that Jon had Longclaw previously, they certainly do now.

There are, relatively speaking, very few dragonblade or Valyrian swords, so for now I'm thinking the focus is more on the blades than it is on Jon Snow.

[Black Crow]

My, its moved on a bit since I last looked in.

I really can't get behind the notion that the pack of walkers who scragged Ser Waymar were actually looking for Jon Snow. The timing is way off. Leaving aside my suggested connection between the six white walkers and the six direwolf pups, the fact of the matter is that Ser Waymar got his somewhere beyond the Wall before Gared and the direwolf tooled up near Winterfell. You then need to add another period of time after that to allow for the direwolves to grow up into young dogs before Jon even talks about coming north.