Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you think the white walkers have been featured enough through all five books to turn out to be alien-like creatures from the north? They were in the prologue of AGOT and Sam killed one in ASOS, but they haven't been seen on the page since. I can't help but recall that GRRMs original plan was to not even have dragons, so I really don't think white walkers themselves are meant to be the main threat.

The Others were always meant to be the biggest threat. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

A lot of people are uncomfortable with this concept.  It doesn't feel right to them and the idea of slippery time conjures up the usual objections to time lords et al.  We've been told that greenseers don't experience time in a linear fashion and the rules about time don't apply but we're not talking about time lords either. We've been given an example in the Tree-Bran, Ghost-Jon encounter.  But I think the circumstances when this can happen are very specific.  It occurs in the dream world for one thing and both Bran and Jon have a third eye. Jon hasn't realized the full power of that yet.

I am not uncomfortable with the idea of dream time travel, but I do find I doubt that GRRM is going to kill Jon in a cliff hanger. The Stark deaths we see that are real are not cliff hangers, such as Ned's or Robb's or even Cat's. She was dead, but it wasn't a cliffhanger. We do have some precedence for Arya seeming to die in a cliff hanger, but she is just knocked on the head by the Hounds axe and after she awakens, I think she has more control of Nymeria than she did before. A head injury, possible near death experience that made her gift strong. Even Bran's possible death at the hands of Theon feels like a cliffhanger, but it was false. I think that Bran's tower fall near death experience made him stronger, and I expect that will be what happens with Jon Snow, as well. I guess we won't know until we get another book, but I do remember that GRRM seemed displeased that the show (not that the show matters that much) went with Jon's death and resurrection, and GRRM likened Jon to a "fire wight", something I don't think he was pleased with. I don't think Jon as an "ice wight" is that different, so I really don't expect Jon's death at this stage of the story. At the end, probably. Not yet.

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The black crows and the white crows fight each other, as do the black rangers and the white rangers. The white crows announce Winter and with its approach the white rangers are currently winning. 

 

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that the 'white crows' are white walkers.

If the White Walker's are the white equivalent of the Black Brother's, then are the White Walker's some kind of brotherhood, serving to defend the Lands of Always Winter against encroachment by humans, with vows and lifelong commitments? But why are they crows? They wear no capes that look like wings. The wildlings call the Night's Watch brother's crows because they dress in black, including black cloaks. We do have a equivalent of that in our story, and that is the Kingsguard. White armor and white cloaks. Perhaps under the sea, Patchface is seeing Kingsguard?

I am not opposed to the white walkers as being "white crows" but I'm not sure that's the only possibility.

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I am not uncomfortable with the idea of dream time travel, but I do find I doubt that GRRM is going to kill Jon in a cliff hanger. The Stark deaths we see that are real are not cliff hangers, such as Ned's or Robb's or even Cat's. She was dead, but it wasn't a cliffhanger. We do have some precedence for Arya seeming to die in a cliff hanger, but she is just knocked on the head by the Hounds axe and after she awakens, I think she has more control of Nymeria than she did before. A head injury, possible near death experience that made her gift strong. Even Bran's possible death at the hands of Theon feels like a cliffhanger, but it was false. I think that Bran's tower fall near death experience made him stronger, and I expect that will be what happens with Jon Snow, as well. I guess we won't know until we get another book, but I do remember that GRRM seemed displeased that the show (not that the show matters that much) went with Jon's death and resurrection, and GRRM likened Jon to a "fire wight", something I don't think he was pleased with. I don't think Jon as an "ice wight" is that different, so I really don't expect Jon's death at this stage of the story. At the end, probably. Not yet.

Sure, I don't have a problem this either.

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, GRRM considered at a very early point not doing literal dragons, but was then convinced by Phyllis Eisenstein that he should.  He never wavered after that.

He certainly intended literal dragons when he submitted the thirteen chapters to his agent in 1993, because his summary from October of that year says Dany:

But we know he subsequently decided dragons had been extinct for some time and made those eggs a wedding present from Mopatis.

As for the Popsicles being the main threat, that's spelled out in 1993 too:

But as many have observed, the Popsicles are possibly the laziest villains in fantasy history... so far averaging about one appearance per million words of canon. 

One can only hope that in a book called The Winds of Winter, they'll play a larger and more direct role.  But since the last book was called A Dance with Dragons and didn't feature a dance with dragons, even that seems uncertain.

GRRM's tendency as a gardener to blow his available wordcount on irrelevancies like the Battle of Meereen is on full display in the TWOW sample chapters, and is not a promising sign.

He included the dragons and wrote them into many, many chapters, but so far they are irrelevant to Westeros. At the end of Dance Dany was with Drogon eating some charred meat when Khal Jhaqo and his khalasar find her. Meanwhile Barristan Selmy is holding down the fort in Meereen. These events are so far removed from making the voyage to Westeros, whereas Winterfell is under a blizzard - winter has arrived. Are we to wait a year or more for Daenerys to defeat Jhaqo and use his khalasar to march on Meereen, eliminate the threats from Yunkai - not to mention reveal the identities of the Sons of the Harpy, and then regroup and sail to Westeros? It's a lot to resolve.

The Popsicles are the laziest villains, unless their source is the wildlings, then they've been there all along.

[St Daga]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's the mystery really. I don't know. I can only point out that George had Sam struck the neck, the least physically protected area, whether by armor or exoskeleton. While an exoskeleton is crushable, and more fragile than an actual armor is, Sam didn't strike at it. 

No, Sam closed his eyes, prayed to the Father, and struck blindly! He was either damn lucky or the gods answered his prayers or he could have struck him anywhere and the blow is just as lethal no matter where it falls... if it's made with obsidian. I didn't think that Sam had any steel on him, but he actually does have a knife he uses for cutting meat, so he could just have easily grabbed that one. But for some reason, his hand fell to the obsidian dagger and the rest of the story becomes Ser Puddles!

Hard to say if where it is struck is as important as what he struck it with!  Vague as usual, per the GRRMster!

[LynnS]

On 7/14/2019 at 4:05 AM, Black Crow said:

The Heart of Darkness per Conrad [which GRRM plagiarised to bring Bran Stark and Bran "Kurz" Blackwood together] is both within the unknown and at the same time within the human heart.

But going back to Bran's vision, yes on one level its about the future and future events, and at the same time its looking into what lies within and the the truth.

To close with his vision of Jon, its not just a prediction of his death per se, but about him becoming "a cold dead thing"

What throws me off here is that Bran is shown a very specific location and I can't help thinking that something is physically manifest there.  However, if this is a vision of the future; then it's something that may not come to pass and there may not be anything there.

Dany's search for the truth and her fear of looking back (to the past) seems to mirror Jojen's statement about fearing the past, the future and the truth.

I always thought this was an odd statement for GRRM to give to Dany because of the wolf imagery.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

So this is the future (red door) and the past (looking behind).   A death that is more than death..... a corpse queen?

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

No, Sam closed his eyes, prayed to the Father, and struck blindly! He was either damn lucky or the gods answered his prayers or he could have struck him anywhere and the blow is just as lethal no matter where it falls... if it's made with obsidian. I didn't think that Sam had any steel on him, but he actually does have a knife he uses for cutting meat, so he could just have easily grabbed that one. But for some reason, his hand fell to the obsidian dagger and the rest of the story becomes Ser Puddles!

Hard to say if where it is struck is as important as what he struck it with!  Vague as usual, per the GRRMster!

I know he struck blindly, but he happened to stick it into the neck, so GRRM made it so it wasn't the "armor/exoskeleton". The blue "blood" flowing is the first thing that happens, before the armor melts into rivulets. 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I know he struck blindly, but he happened to stick it into the neck, so GRRM made it so it wasn't the "armor/exoskeleton". The blue "blood" folowing is the first thing that happens, before the armor melts into rivulets. 

Didn't GRRM say that when Sam struck the WW, that he broke the spell (holding it together)?  The dragonglass draws out the 'cold' causing the WW to melt.  They are made of snow and ice and cold according to Stannis.  Drawing out the cold, seems to break the spell.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

Do it now. Stop crying and fight, you baby. Fight, craven. It was his father he heard, it was Alliser Thorne, it was his brother Dickon and the boy Rast. Craven, craven, craven. He giggled hysterically, wondering if they would make a wight of him, a huge fat white wight always tripping over its own dead feet. Do it, Sam. Was that Jon, now? Jon was dead. You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

 

 

[sweetsunray]

As for Jon being dead by the end of aDwD or not: I didn't think he was or that it was necessary until this week. George sidelined that question about Jon and instead directed it to Beric. As long as Jon's plot is south of the Wall and on the Wall itself, Jon doesn't need to be dead whatsoever. I think the wounding of him and getting blood on the mirror is enough for the Others to resurrect wights in Castle Black during the events of the last chapter, and that will serve to bring many witnesses around to spread the threat is real south of the Wall : the Mountain men at CB, Selyse and her knights, any of the NW that were still in doubt but not part of the mutineers, and will be enough for everybody else to turn on the mutineers. But if it's George's intent to get Jon to physically go to the Heart of the Lands of Always Winter and strike there, then I can see why Jon would have to be a resurrected wight with all his faculties. It needs to be someone who won't be affected by -200 °C, who doesn't need to eat (because there ain't any) or sleep (to make time), and who would trust any information given to him by Bran via Meera showing up with Summer. 

From Bran's dream we know that whatever is there aim to protect itself from dreamers. It likely relies on the physical conditions to keep out any warm blooded living mammal from getting that far. 

Would he have Jon be almost-death now but then actually death and resurrected after? No don't think so. And sorry if I have Miracle Max imagery now discussing what is "dead"

 

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

 

[St Daga]

44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I know he struck blindly, but he happened to stick it into the neck, so GRRM made it so it wasn't the "armor/exoskeleton". The blue "blood" flowing is the first thing that happens, before the armor melts into rivulets. 

Then if their "skin" is exposed, and you think they are made of gas that has to be maintained at -200C, how does "skin" keep that gas contained and cold enough to remain in form? Perhaps I misunderstand and your theory on the CO gas only applies to the weapon the Other carries, and not to the Other itself? And although it's in the same sentence, the armor running is mentioned before the blue blood. So, from the moment the dagger made contact, all aspects of the Other were being affected, not just the place where the dagger struck.

I still think that if obsidian is a weapon to use against the Other's, it doesn't matter where the Other is struck, it should cause harm, to "skin" or magic ice armor, both. Sam also takes the opportunity to attack it when it has no weapon, which surely helped it be more exposed to Sam Tarly, who is a terrible fighter, as the text has outlined multiple times.

The interesting part of that sequence is that the sword of the Other touches the flames of Grenn's torch, and while it makes a screeching sound, that fire in no way harms the blade of the Other, nor does the fire even seem to make the Other pause, although fire must be some kind of threat, because the Other neutralizes it.  It seems it's more concerned about Small Paul's axe than Grenn's fire, and it could have killed Grenn, but it does not. It only kills Small Paul, whose weapon is a steel axe. We don't know what it would have done to Sam or Grenn if Sam had not attacked it, and I guess we never will.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Didn't GRRM say that when Sam struck the WW, that he broke the spell (holding it together)?  The dragonglass draws out the 'cold' causing the WW to melt.  They are made of snow and ice and cold according to Stannis.  Drawing out the cold, seems to break the spell.

I have seen this claim posted more than once, but I cannot locate the SSM. Does anyone have a link?

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Would he have Jon be almost-death now but then actually death and resurrected after? No don't think so. And sorry if I have Miracle Max imagery now discussing what is "dead"

"Almost dead" is a classic. I think of this quite often, as well, when it comes to the blurred lines of life and death in this story.

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Jon being dead by the end of aDwD or not: I didn't think he was or that it was necessary until this week. George sidelined that question about Jon and instead directed it to Beric. As long as Jon's plot is south of the Wall and on the Wall itself, Jon doesn't need to be dead whatsoever. I think the wounding of him and getting blood on the mirror is enough for the Others to resurrect wights in Castle Black during the events of the last chapter, and that will serve to bring many witnesses around to spread the threat is real south of the Wall : the Mountain men at CB, Selyse and her knights, any of the NW that were still in doubt but not part of the mutineers, and will be enough for everybody else to turn on the mutineers. But if it's George's intent to get Jon to physically go to the Heart of the Lands of Always Winter and strike there, then I can see why Jon would have to be a resurrected wight with all his faculties. It needs to be someone who won't be affected by -200 °C, who doesn't need to eat (because there ain't any) or sleep (to make time), and who would trust any information given to him by Bran via Meera showing up with Summer. 

If Jon dies later, I don't think he will be resurrected. He will stay dead, that is why I think it will happen towards the end of the story. As for the idea of someone needing to travel to the "Lands of Always Winter", I am not sure that we do. Or that will be Jon Snow. We just need to find out what the Last Hero found out during his journey, which Sam might find at the Citadel. The story of the Last Hero claims the man had to travel though the "dead lands" but what does that mean, anyway? At this point, how far south had the Other's and their wighted slaves pushed? Anything in their wake could be considered "dead lands". The Last Hero traveled to find the Children of the Forest, and to learn secrets from them. Currently, that fit's Bran's arc more than Jon's arc. If someone needs to travel into the Lands of Always Winter, we already have a candidate who can do that, and that is Coldhands, who doesn't eat, doesn't breath, and doesn't seem affected by the cold. 

[LynnS]

Somebody was taking pictures of my garden yesterday! I might be in the running for the community garden award.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Then if their "skin" is exposed, and you think they are made of gas that has to be maintained at -200C, how does "skin" keep that gas contained and cold enough to remain in form? Perhaps I misunderstand and your theory on the CO gas only applies to the weapon the Other carries, and not to the Other itself? And although it's in the same sentence, the armor running is mentioned before the blue blood. So, from the moment the dagger made contact, all aspects of the Other were being affected, not just the place where the dagger struck.

I still think that if obsidian is a weapon to use against the Other's, it doesn't matter where the Other is struck, it should cause harm, to "skin" or magic ice armor, both. Sam also takes the opportunity to attack it when it has no weapon, which surely helped it be more exposed to Sam Tarly, who is a terrible fighter, as the text has outlined multiple times.

The interesting part of that sequence is that the sword of the Other touches the flames of Grenn's torch, and while it makes a screeching sound, that fire in no way harms the blade of the Other, nor does the fire even seem to make the Other pause. It seems it's more concerned about Small Paul's axe than Grenn's fire, and it could have killed Grenn, but it does not. It only kills Small Paul, whose weapon is a steel axe. We don't know what it would have done to Sam or Grenn if Sam had not attacked it, and I guess we never will.

Well it's not a "gas", but a solid. We know these elements as "gas", but on Pluto for example they are solids, as solid as most metals. Is mercury less of a metal, because we know it as a liquid at room temperature? It's a solid at -30 °C. Methane has carbon in it, so it's possible that these solid elements can combine in some way into something that is flesh-like looking to an extend. 

In the Plutonian Others thread someone posted an explanation of Asimov that's on a website now detailing all types of life there might be in extreme colder circumstances or far hotter ones. The likelihood that it would be "protein" and carbon related life is less likely.

And we never wanted to go that far, because there's too little info... just wanted to point out certain elements that as a solid in extremel low temperatures could fit symbolically and with certain descriptions. 

I wished I could argue "oh, hell it was just the spell that was broken and if Sam hit the armor we still would end up with Mr. Puddles", but I dare not make that assertion, since in the end the obsidian dagger struck the throat, hit the jugular and blue blood came out, and for a moment the Other still tried to pull out that dagger. Nor do I dare to argue that "oh, any object can be stuck in an Other's throat and he'd die". 

But yeah, I agree that the Other wasn't much phazed by Grenn's torch, but certainly killed Small Paul with his axe. 

[St Daga]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Didn't GRRM say that when Sam struck the WW, that he broke the spell (holding it together)?  The dragonglass draws out the 'cold' causing the WW to melt.  They are made of snow and ice and cold according to Stannis.  Drawing out the cold, seems to break the spell.

I have seen this claim posted more than once, but I cannot locate the SSM. Does anyone have a link?

I have come across this idea several times, but have not seen it from GRRM. He might have said it though. I had thought it was more of a working theory on how the dragonglass dagger affected the Other, and not something that GRRM has confirmed. It seems like we discussed in a few heresy's back that perhaps the cold/spirit of the Other was absorbed into the dragonglass, and that is why it was so cold when Grenn first tried to pick it up. 

[St Daga]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well it's not a "gas", but a solid. We know these elements as "gas", but on Pluto for example they are solids, as solid as most metals. Is mercury less of a metal, because we know it as a liquid at room temperature? It's a solid at -30 °C. Methane has carbon in it, so it's possible that these solid elements can combine in some way into something that is flesh-like looking to an extend. 

Sure, I guess my understanding is that they only remain at a "solid" stage if they can maintain their core temperature, which makes sense if they are some how encased to protect them from a regular atmospheric temperature. I guess in my head I am thinking of space suits that humans where to maintain their core temp even when space walking. "Space" is roughly -270C, and if there is a breech to the astronauts suit, they would quickly lose consciousness, and then quickly die since the human body cannot survive at this extreme temperature. So, if that protective covering around an Other that keeps them in solid form is breached, they would quickly turn to liquid first, then gas. 

 

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I wished I could argue "oh, hell it was just the spell that was broken and if Sam hit the armor we still would end up with Mr. Puddles", but I dare not make that assertion, since in the end the obsidian dagger struck the throat, hit the jugular and blue blood came out, and for a moment the Other still tried to pull out that dagger. Nor do I dare to argue that "oh, any object can be stuck in an Other's throat and he'd die". 

There are certainly a lot of "what if's" that we don't know in this little scene with Samwell and the Other. We don't also know if Sam hit a jugular vein, or a carotid artery, or if Other's are even built like that. We are told there is blood, I agree.  The Other did try to pull the dagger out, but couldn't as it's hands smoked where it touched the obsidian. But simultaneously, it's armor is dissolving and blue blood is "steaming" around the black dagger. It seems like the whole Other is imploding in a matter of a few seconds. Hard to say if armor played a role or not, or if any sword or stick could affect the Other in this way if it pierced it's neck. Several unknowns involved here.  Againi, GRRM the Vague strikes again!

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

f Jon dies later, I don't think he will be resurrected. He will stay dead, that is why I think it will happen towards the end of the story. As for the idea of someone needing to travel to the "Lands of Always Winter", I am not sure that we do. Or that will be Jon Snow. We just need to find out what the Last Hero found out during his journey, which Sam might find at the Citadel. The story of the Last Hero claims the man had to travel though the "dead lands" but what does that mean, anyway? At this point, how far south had the Other's and their wighted slaves pushed? Anything in their wake could be considered "dead lands". The Last Hero traveled to find the Children of the Forest, and to learn secrets from them. Currently, that fit's Bran's arc more than Jon's arc. If someone needs to travel into the Lands of Always Winter, we already have a candidate who can do that, and that is Coldhands, who doesn't eat, doesn't breath, and doesn't seem affected by the cold. 

The story of the Last Hero was that he went in search of the hidden cities of the Children of the Forest for aid. At the time there was a peace pact between children and people: the forests were CotF's, the rest humans and humans weren't to touch forests anymore. So, they had peace and weren't at war for thousands of years. Man only warred amongst themselves. So, CotF and humans weren't enemies but not really allies either. Then comes the long night, and the Others really do a lot of damage, and humans didn't really know how to fight them, how to stop them. So, the Last Hero and his friends and dog and horse and sword went in search for the CotF to find out what they could do. All his friends died. His horse died. His dog died. His sword broke. And yet he reached the CotF and they agree to become allies. By then some early NW already existed. The secret that the CotF shared was how obsidian could kill them. And this knowledge helped that early NW (not the Last Hero specifically) defeat the Others. That defeat meant "pushing them back", since somehow the Others survived, but were were severely wounded or harmed to try and do the same again.

Then several centuries/generations later, we don't get "Others" trying it again, but based on description what appears to be some female Other (the corpse queen), a sorceress. She came out to meet the LC, did something to him that turned him in some way. He gave her her his "seed and soul", made other NW brothers his minions. This seems to have led to Others reappearing (but not mention of ice spiders in this legend). Before Joramun blew his horn to wake the sleepers, but eventually makes a pact with the Stark of Winterfell to take down the N'sK. Wildlings and Starks worked together, killed the N'sK, but we don't know what happened to his Queen. And we are told he sacrificed children. So, this seems to be related to making Others.

It seems to me quite extraordinary that this queen ventured south after the defeat of the LN, and in particularly that she basically "mated", and that there's no more mention of ice spiders anymore in that legend.

I have come to think of this as some type of queen with a hive of soldiers and workers thing. The heart is her nest. She sends her soldiers out as army, but most of these ended up being killed once the CotF shared the secret of obsidian. This defeat happened south of the lands of always winter. Sort of like when you kill a plague of ants invading your home. It was devestating enough that the hive queen was without proper mates. What do such queens usually do? They relocate in search of a mate. That's what we see in the N'sK story. That failed too, but some people always lived close enough to the lands of the always winter (the frozen shore), and they sacrificed children to the remaining Others. And likely her venture south once did cost her a great deal, and she won't be risking it again imo. Perhaps over the milennia greenseers also aimed to keep her weakened at the Heart via the dreamworld. But the number of CotF has been dwindling, so has the number of human greenseers, and I think the sorcerer who cut Varys helped to give her life power again. Since then they've been slowly been building the numbers of soldier Others again. And then comes this vision of Jon Snow killing her. And so they began to act to prevent it, but each action, only backfires to make it come true.   

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have come across this idea several times, but have not seen it from GRRM. He might have said it though. I had thought it was more of a working theory on how the dragonglass dagger affected the Other, and not something that GRRM has confirmed. It seems like we discussed in a few heresy's back that perhaps the cold/spirit of the Other was absorbed into the dragonglass, and that is why it was so cold when Grenn first tried to pick it up. 

I think I heard this from Black Crow.  Might be part of an interview.