Heresy 224 Whitey Snow and the Winter Hill Gang

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

Jon journeys into the Heart of Ice, Daenerys into the Heart of Fire. I like it. 

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Where do you think he'll go, once alive again? Winterfell, to continue his pursuit of Starkness? Further North, to join Bran? Or will he remain at the Wall, status quo ante?

If you mean where does he go in the semi-immediate future, I think he goes to Winterfell.

Jon has a dream late in ADWD, and while much emphasis has been given to the "burning sword/armor of black ice" portion of the dream, there's another paragraph that I think might foreshadow some of Jon's future:

Quote

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. 

I believe this dream can be coupled with his internal struggle in ASOS, in which Stannis dangled the prospect of marrying Val and becoming the Lord of Winterfell, which tapped into longstanding desires:

Quote

When Jon had been Bran's age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father's life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child's folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father's sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother's birthright? 

Quote

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. 

Returning to the ADWD dream, if Jon were to pursue Winterfell, such an act would (in Jon's mind, anyway) represent a betrayal of the people he's 'slaying' in the dream--Robb, and rangers that have already sacrificed themselves for the Watch, and whose deaths might be a particular source of guilt for Jon.

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Do we know the Starks were "powerful skinchangers," or are we just filling in the blanks based on the current generation and the wolf statues?

Either that... or out of nowhere, six of six Stark kids form psychic bonds with direwolves given the first opportunity and literally without even trying.

I choose not to see it as coincidence.

21 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I don't think the "escape hatch" lacks textual foreshadowing, either. No less a figure than Aemon Targaryen (the older one) attributes his death, at least in part, to leaving the Wall. "Cold preserves." 

I mean a direct precedent.  Some instance in which it has happened in the history of Westeros, at least in myths.  There is none.

As for the cold... it was certainly cold when Varamyr died and yet, that was that for him.  He couldn't go back and he also couldn't hop from his wolf to any other body.

He has actually never even heard of a skinchanger who pulled off such a stunt.  What he was told by Haggon, and has confirmed via experience, is the exact opposite: the second life is final. 

We also see this via Orell's consciousness -- Orell hated Jon's guts and surely had all the motive in the world to reverse his situation and get into a body to kill Jon, but it simply never happened.  The cold was no help.

As for Jon saying "Ghost" shortly before he lost consciousness, that has various possible meanings.  "I am going to transfer my mind to Ghost's body" is one, I suppose, though I'm unclear why Jon would feel any need to announce this verbally to people who clearly would have no faint clue or interest.

[JNR]

21 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Where do you think he'll go, once alive again? Winterfell, to continue his pursuit of Starkness? Further North, to join Bran? Or will he remain at the Wall, status quo ante?

I don't really know.  The specifics of what characters will do next in the story isn't an area where I often have anything that rises to the level of theory.

But if I had to guess his immediate future, Winterfell. 

It was his first priority before he was attacked and if he isn't permanently dead, I think it still will be -- other than recovering, of course.

[Jaghen]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Either that... or out of nowhere, six of six Stark kids form psychic bonds with direwolves given the first opportunity and literally without even trying.

I choose not to see it as coincidence.

Do we know that all of them do though ? Jon, Bran, Arya we know, but the three others ? Rickon we never had a POV so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't recall Sansa or Robb giving any evidence of warging. Now 3 out of 6 is still quite decent for something allegedly rare, but far less impressive than 6 out of 6.

 

I would love Jon to go North, but I do believe he is headed to Winterfell, between his own wants and Ramsay's letter... could be a fast trek North with Bran while between life and death (or between death and life depending on your preference).

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, Jaghen said:

Do we know that all of them do though ? Jon, Bran, Arya we know, but the three others ? Rickon we never had a POV so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't recall Sansa or Robb giving any evidence of warging. Now 3 out of 6 is still quite decent for something allegedly rare, but far less impressive than 6 out of 6.

 

While Rickon is hampered by the absence of a POV and is still very young when we last see him, both he and Sansa are characterised by the bond with their direwolves which goes beyond the normal human bond in the way they reflect each other. Robb of course was busy with other things but there's the business of Greywind leading the army through that obscure pass.

Its also worth remembering how quickly we lost them and noting that the bond took time to establish properly with the others

[Black Crow]

23 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

No less a figure than Aemon Targaryen (the older one) attributes his death, at least in part, to leaving the Wall. "Cold preserves." 

I ought to point out that in quoting that line I was referring to Jon's corporeal body rather than his spirit.

The bodies of Othor and Jafer survived pretty well until Ser Alliser took the severed hand down south only for it to promptly rot. Coldhands claimed that he couldn't pass the Wall and while that, if true, may have been a reference to the magic in the Wall it could just as easily mean it was the Cold which was preserving his dead body and he feared that beyond the Wall it would be preserved no longer.

Moving on to Jon therefore if he does become another Coldhands then he too might be condemned to remain in cold places at or beyond the Wall

[Jaghen]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

While Rickon is hampered by the absence of a POV and is still very young when we last see him, both he and Sansa are characterised by the bond with their direwolves which goes beyond the normal human bond in the way they reflect each other. Robb of course was busy with other things but there's the business of Greywind leading the army through that obscure pass.

Its also worth remembering how quickly we lost them and noting that the bond took time to establish properly with the others

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I do like the idea of the Starks being connected to whatever is going on and having been so for millenia.

But I'd say there is always some kind of connection between master and pet. Dogs and kids especially, growing up together from "babies" to adults does that. As for the pass, Grey Wind could have been following animal sent as well, goats or boars could be travelling there regularly, fortunate for sure but conclusive ?

I believe the man himself has confirmed that all 6 are Wargs, to some extent at least, the fact that they are lost is how I reconcile that with actually not being Wargs. If we consider they can't (or they haven't been able to anyway) learn the trick by themselves. But need help, either from their magical pets, or from someone who knows how to already (=third eye opening by Bran).

Now I'm just waiting for WoW to open with a Rickon chapter where he wargs bears to fight off cannibals. I usually enjoy being wrong just as much as being right with GRRM anyway, some (good) unexpected turns.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Jaghen said:

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I do like the idea of the Starks being connected to whatever is going on and having been so for millenia.

But I'd say there is always some kind of connection between master and pet. Dogs and kids especially, growing up together from "babies" to adults does that. As for the pass, Grey Wind could have been following animal sent as well, goats or boars could be travelling there regularly, fortunate for sure but conclusive ?

I believe the man himself has confirmed that all 6 are Wargs, to some extent at least, the fact that they are lost is how I reconcile that with actually not being Wargs. If we consider they can't (or they haven't been able to anyway) learn the trick by themselves. But need help, either from their magical pets, or from someone who knows how to already (=third eye opening by Bran).

Now I'm just waiting for WoW to open with a Rickon chapter where he wargs bears to fight off cannibals. I usually enjoy being wrong just as much as being right with GRRM anyway, some (good) unexpected turns.

Jojen explained that part of the human remains in the direwolf and part of the direwolf remains in the human. Rickon's Shaggydog is as wild and dark and fearful as a four year old. Sansa's Lady was gentle like she had Sansa's ladylike courtesy. Nymeria was an alpha female similar to Arya's desire to train with sword like boys and men. The direwolves will growl when their human doesn't like somebody or lick their hand when there's no fear. I know BC thinks the direwolves run the show, but it seems to me that the direwolves are reflections of their masters.

[Brad Stark]

17 hours ago, Jaghen said:

Do we know that all of them do though ? Jon, Bran, Arya we know, but the three others ? Rickon we never had a POV so it's hard to know for sure, but I don't recall Sansa or Robb giving any evidence of warging. Now 3 out of 6 is still quite decent for something allegedly rare, but far less impressive than 6 out of 6.

 

I would love Jon to go North, but I do believe he is headed to Winterfell, between his own wants and Ramsay's letter... could be a fast trek North with Bran while between life and death (or between death and life depending on your preference).

This goes back to our discussion about the Starks being ordinary and the wolves being special magical creatures.   There is an ssm where GRRM says something along the lines that after Lady is killed, Sansa is no longer a true Stark.

I believe Rob was a warg, and I think I remember GRRM confirming it.  Rob's focus was on his army and war and wife, so he didn't notice or use his abilities the way Bran and Jon do.

I find it obvious Rickon is a Warg, but maybe he and his wolf both just have wild, untamable and similar personalities. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

This goes back to our discussion about the Starks being ordinary and the wolves being special magical creatures.   There is an ssm where GRRM says something along the lines that after Lady is killed, Sansa is no longer a true Stark.

I believe Rob was a warg, and I think I remember GRRM confirming it.  Rob's focus was on his army and war and wife, so he didn't notice or use his abilities the way Bran and Jon do.

I find it obvious Rickon is a Warg, but maybe he and his wolf both just have wild, untamable and similar personalities. 

I agree that all the Stark children who were given direwolves are wargs, even if we can't see that within all of their own thoughts, because of a lack of POV's. The hard part is to understand which side made the connection work? But perhaps it needed to be a connection from both sides? It seems like the children's gifts all awakened with the gift of their direwolves, however, since that is the first time we meet any of the Stark children, we can't really know if they might have had some quiet connection with a dog or horse in the past. Or even what age the gift might start showing up. I would think Varamyr was at least 4 (and maybe older) when his little brother Bump was killed by the dogs. It almost reads as if Varamyr might have already established a connection with all three dogs, and how long before this incident with Bump's death, had Varamyr made his first connection. 

While I do think the direwolves are magical and quite special, I do wonder if the Stark kids might still have been able to have some kind of skinchanger connection without the pups. We have hints of Lyanna and Brandon's connection with horses, and that seems somewhat skinchanger like, and Ned even mentions having a favorite horse, which has always stood out to me in the text. However, if that generation of Starks had been given direwolves, would their abilities have been ramped up and almost immediate? Because it seems like when the six Stark children are blessed with their direwolf pups, there is an almost immediate flipping of some kind of switch between the children and their individual pups. But at that time, none of them understood what was going on, or even that such a thing was possible, hence the delay in understanding what might have been going on in their own minds and bodies. 

[St Daga]

On 6/25/2019 at 1:51 PM, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Snow's death is an interesting wrench.

Per my reading of the Meereeneese Blot essays, Dance was about our characters' struggle with their identities. Dany tries and tries to rule, but keeps coming back to "dragons plant no trees," "remember who you are," etc. Arya keeps trying to be no one, and keeps failing. Per the sample chapter, she's going to go off the books yet again and commit another unauthorized freelance murder. Try as she might, she can't stop being Arya Stark. And Jon, after resisting multiple temptations, finally decides that he can no longer abandon his home to usurpers and must be, if not a Stark, at least a son of Winterfell.

But why kill the poor guy? Is it just a fun narrative trope? Does GRRM need a way to release him from his vows? Will it matter? It seems reasonable to expect Jon will spend some time as a wolf. Will Ghost get full honors as Lord Commander? Will Dolorous Edd feed him kibble and walk him regularly?

More seriously, where will he go? Straight to Ghost? Will his spirit will go a-wandering to the crypts, Eddard style? I think it almost a guarantee that Jon will find himself answering a phone call from a one Bran Stark. Surely death will jar that third eye wide open.

What will happen on the wall? Immediate bloodshed between Watch and Wildling? An uneasy peace with Bowen Marsh? Will Roose, Ramsay, or Stannis even be alive when Jon is Jon again? Will Jon ever even go to Winterfell? 

I know that most people interpret that Jon will die from his stabbing wounds, but I am not so sure about that. We get the concept a couple times early in the story that "Stark's are hard to kill". Now, that could be because of their warg/skinchanger ability, but it might because of something else in their physical makeup? Jon is knifed at least four times that we see, and then he seems to black out. We know that Robb was shot with at least three arrows, went down, and then popped back up like a jack-in-the-box. Why do we see this with Robb? There is something very deliberate in what seems like the final blow that is given to Robb, a twisting blade to the heart. Most people are not going to live through that, granted, but it still seems quite deliberate choice of the author. maybe Jon will get this blow to the heart, too, but maybe not. Maybe Robb did try to go into Grey Wind, and on Grey Winds death, Robb was thrust back into his own body. Something like this might happen with Jon and Ghost, too, but since GRRM left us with a cliff hanger, and we haven't really seen any cliffhanger deaths of our POV's, I really doubt that this is it for Jon Snow.

Many interpret that this is about Jon's eventual resurrection, and that might be correct. There is certainly much to be said for the idea of resurrection that is established in the books. But what if we are being a bit mislead with Jon's apparent death? I think GRRM likes to toy with us a bit. I know that the show's actions are not the best comparison, but GRRM also had expressed some discord with the decision to kill and resurrect Jon Snow on the show, basically comparing him to a fire wight. Now, it could just be that the show didn't go about GRRM's no doubt much more detailed method of resurrection, or perhaps they took the wrong path entirely (fire vs ice). Perhaps GRRM never intended Jon to be a wight of any sort. Certainly not fire, but perhaps not ice, either! 

I do understand the idea's about how Jon's Stark blood could perhaps cause him to be able to live on, and be reborn in a way that is different than what we have seen with the wights in our story, or even Beric or Catelyn. And I do think that the Stark blood might be very much connected to the spirit's of the white walkers, but if that is so, what is the purpose of Craster's sacrifice of sons? Even with Bran's fall and coma, he seems to have lived through something that most people could not. Stark's are hard to kill. As far as we know, Bran's physical body never died, although I do think Bran's psyche might have gone into Summer at that time, and in some way, Summer helped Bran survive that terrible fall and broken back and leg injuries that should kill most people.  So, I think of Jon's stabbing as more of Bran's fall. Jon should die from his injuries, because most men should, but Jon isn't most men, just like Bran wasn't. They have Stark blood, and Stark's are hard to kill. 

Interestingly, the first time we hear this phrase, it's from Jon, who seems to again be setting himself separate from his Stark family, mostly based on his last name, even while being aware that they all share the same blood. Jon tells this to Robb in regards to Bran's fall and coma. Robb does not deny the statement. But it's always interested me that we see this tied to Bran, Jon and Robb, three Stark's who end up having questionable life-threatening injuries. But then, it's repeated to us again from Tyrion Lannister, so this is not something that is just said in Winterfell or in the north. This is knowledge that Tyrion, a Lannister from the south, seems to repeat almost like it's the Stark words of "winter is coming". It's important, I think, and I for one am not counting Jon as dead. Although, I am prepared to be very wrong about that.

In the last couple days, I have been rewatching HBO's Rome (a show I quite enjoy), and while perhaps more soap opera than historical reference, it does hit the high points, and I was reminded again of how much Caesar's death seems to be a nod to what we hear about Jon Snow's stabbing. While Caesar was considered a tyrant and was certainly a dictator, it could be argued that people in the watch could feel that Jon Snow is also a bit of a tyrant in his decision making. They both seem to have been separated from their close allies leading up to their stabbings. Both men were taken unaware, surrounded by their brother's (the watch or in the Senate) and multiple people struck blows. The very first blow to both Caesar and Jon was a superficial cut to the neck, then both men, grabbed at that dagger and avoided the next blow. Then other blows came. Caesar is said to never have cried out or spoken (no "Et tu, Brute", sorry), and was also reported to be quite hard to kill. Later evaluation of  his body, show he was stabbed or cut 23 times, but only one of the blows was seen to be fatal. And while Caesar did die, I am not sure that Jon will, because Jon is a Stark and Stark's are hard to kill. 

And while I don't favor Jon as dead from his stabbing, I do recognize the potential for it. In history, I can see that with Caeser's death, we see a bit of a resurrection for him as well. Not of his remains, but of his name. He named his great nephew Octavius his heir, and Octavius took up Caesar's name and his ideals (eventually he changed his name further to Caesar Augustus), and eventually became the emperor that so many feared that Gaius Julius Caesar would become. Ironically, Caesar's death, as seen by many the way to protect the structure of the Roman republic, became the final downfall of the republic and lead directly to the rise of the Roman empire. So, if GRRM is leaning this way in Jon's story, then I could see Jon as dead and resurrected, and the beginning of a whole new way to run the show up on the wall, which could very well lead to the idea of Jon as the Night's King, a dictator on the wall!

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Jaghen said:

Do we know that all of them do though ? Jon, Bran, Arya we know, but the three others ?

Not from canon, technically, but GRRM has confirmed that, yes.

Quote

Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?

To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely.

You can see what he's talking about re control pretty clearly, too.

Bran can skinchange anything (which is what makes him a greenseer, of course), and Arya has skinchanged a non-direwolf (the cat in Braavos) and continues to skinchange Nymeria from a different continent... but Sansa, as far as I can tell, never even realized that she had a psychic link with Lady (who was killed before it had had much chance to develop).

So between that, and the historical connection between Starks and direwolves going back centuries, the reference in the World book about how skinchanging may have entered the Stark line, etc., I think it's pretty clear the Starks have passed down this extraordinary ability for a very long time.  It wouldn't have been forgotten if there had always been ample direwolves, but of course, they were hunted to near extinction.

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, JNR said:

Not from canon, technically, but GRRM has confirmed that, yes.

You can see what he's talking about re control pretty clearly, too.

Bran can skinchange anything (which is what makes him a greenseer, of course), and Arya has skinchanged a non-direwolf (the cat in Braavos) and continues to skinchange Nymeria from a different continent... but Sansa, as far as I can tell, never even realized that she had a psychic link with Lady (who was killed before it had had much chance to develop).

So between that, and the historical connection between Starks and direwolves going back centuries, the reference in the World book about how skinchanging may have entered the Stark line, etc., I think it's pretty clear the Starks have passed down this extraordinary ability for a very long time.  It wouldn't have been forgotten if there had always been ample direwolves, but of course, they were hunted to near extinction.

Very largely I agree, of course, but as I mentioned recently it may be significant that Theon refers to direwolves not being seen south of the Wall for 200 years. If correct this may point to something going wrong earlier in terms of magical conflict. 

[asongofheresy]

I would say all Stark kids are skinchangers. Bran skinchange to ravens, trees, his direwolf and Hodor. Jon is a powerful skinchanger according to Varamyr but doesn't know it, Arya can skinchange to Nymeria and cats. Rickon is strong and I think skinchange to Shaggydog without realizing. Sansa, hmm, Sansa has bird imaginary around her and maybe skinchange to them in the future.

[Jaghen]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

This goes back to our discussion about the Starks being ordinary and the wolves being special magical creatures.   There is an ssm where GRRM says something along the lines that after Lady is killed, Sansa is no longer a true Stark.

I believe Rob was a warg, and I think I remember GRRM confirming it.  Rob's focus was on his army and war and wife, so he didn't notice or use his abilities the way Bran and Jon do.

I find it obvious Rickon is a Warg, but maybe he and his wolf both just have wild, untamable and similar personalities. 

I didn't know this particular SSM. That's a strange take though, does that mean all the Starks for the past 200 years were "lacking" ? 

What is so special about direwolves skinchanging compared to other animals ? 

14 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree that all the Stark children who were given direwolves are wargs, even if we can't see that within all of their own thoughts, because of a lack of POV's. The hard part is to understand which side made the connection work? But perhaps it needed to be a connection from both sides? It seems like the children's gifts all awakened with the gift of their direwolves, however, since that is the first time we meet any of the Stark children, we can't really know if they might have had some quiet connection with a dog or horse in the past. Or even what age the gift might start showing up. I would think Varamyr was at least 4 (and maybe older) when his little brother Bump was killed by the dogs. It almost reads as if Varamyr might have already established a connection with all three dogs, and how long before this incident with Bump's death, had Varamyr made his first connection. 

While I do think the direwolves are magical and quite special, I do wonder if the Stark kids might still have been able to have some kind of skinchanger connection without the pups. We have hints of Lyanna and Brandon's connection with horses, and that seems somewhat skinchanger like, and Ned even mentions having a favorite horse, which has always stood out to me in the text. However, if that generation of Starks had been given direwolves, would their abilities have been ramped up and almost immediate? Because it seems like when the six Stark children are blessed with their direwolf pups, there is an almost immediate flipping of some kind of switch between the children and their individual pups. But at that time, none of them understood what was going on, or even that such a thing was possible, hence the delay in understanding what might have been going on in their own minds and bodies. 

I find the Varamyr bit very interesting. He doesn't have a direwolf, yet develops skinchanging skills very early. In contrast our heroes only start developping these skills after encoutering direwolves. Bran get's a summer class and ends up way ahead (even in skinchanging skills, not talking about the greenseer abilities).

Your point that they may have started earlier but we just don't know stands, but then I'd ask what happened with Ned, or anyone else before him. I can get keeping the truth secret from the rest of the world, as skinchangers are not considered seemly, but shouldn't you teach your kids about that great gift running in the family line ? Yet it seems to me hat the oldest ones have no clue (Robb, Jon, Sansa - all of which we get povs early in the story) which would tie in with Ned having no clue (and that his favorite horse is just that, a favorite horse).

 

11 hours ago, JNR said:

Not from canon, technically, but GRRM has confirmed that, yes.

You can see what he's talking about re control pretty clearly, too.

Bran can skinchange anything (which is what makes him a greenseer, of course), and Arya has skinchanged a non-direwolf (the cat in Braavos) and continues to skinchange Nymeria from a different continent... but Sansa, as far as I can tell, never even realized that she had a psychic link with Lady (who was killed before it had had much chance to develop).

So between that, and the historical connection between Starks and direwolves going back centuries, the reference in the World book about how skinchanging may have entered the Stark line, etc., I think it's pretty clear the Starks have passed down this extraordinary ability for a very long time.  It wouldn't have been forgotten if there had always been ample direwolves, but of course, they were hunted to near extinction.

Yeas I'm familiar with that one.

Since we do see at least one of the five (Arya - not counting Bran as Greenseer appears to be different and rarer)) skinchange something else than a direwolf, and Varamyr being a powerful skinchanger without ever having a direwolf, how does the direwolves being extinct South of the Wall explain the complete lack of knowledge of that ability amongst Starks ?

It could be a "Ned was not destined to rule" thing, but I don't think that makes sense. Better teach your kids to control their gifts rather than use them by accident and reveal the truth about your family to the rest of the world.

[Black Crow]

In one of Leaf's conversations with Bran she refers to Direwolves as one of the old races. There is something unique about them and the paring with Starks is significant. Without their direwolves to awaken the gift the Starks are no more susceptible to it than anybody else, which is why Winterfell is like the Musgrave Ritual writ large and why it is so significant that someone sent the six direwolf pups to the six children of Winterfell at this precise time

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I would say all Stark kids are skinchangers. Bran skinchange to ravens, trees, his direwolf and Hodor. Jon is a powerful skinchanger according to Varamyr but doesn't know it, Arya can skinchange to Nymeria and cats. Rickon is strong and I think skinchange to Shaggydog without realizing. Sansa, hmm, Sansa has bird imaginary around her and maybe skinchange to them in the future.

It seems hinted at that Sansa is forming a bond with an old blind dog at the Eyrie. That the dog is “blind” indicates Sansa’s third eye wasn’t open yet.

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, Jaghen said:

I didn't know this particular SSM. That's a strange take though, does that mean all the Starks for the past 200 years were "lacking" ? 

What is so special about direwolves skinchanging compared to other animals ? 

There is something special about the direwolves. Even Varamyr thinks that his second life in a direwolf would be a life worthy of a king. Varamyr was no king, but he senses that something in the direwolves would make him a king. It reminds me of how Bran/Summer thinks of himself as "prince of the green" and "prince of the wolfswood". Maybe something about the direwolves ties to kingship, and that ties to why the Stark's are the Kings in the North or the Kings of Winter? Then the question is, are all direwolves important, or just these six?

 

8 hours ago, Jaghen said:

I find the Varamyr bit very interesting. He doesn't have a direwolf, yet develops skinchanging skills very early. In contrast our heroes only start developping these skills after encoutering direwolves. Bran get's a summer class and ends up way ahead (even in skinchanging skills, not talking about the greenseer abilities).

Your point that they may have started earlier but we just don't know stands, but then I'd ask what happened with Ned, or anyone else before him. I can get keeping the truth secret from the rest of the world, as skinchangers are not considered seemly, but shouldn't you teach your kids about that great gift running in the family line ? Yet it seems to me hat the oldest ones have no clue (Robb, Jon, Sansa - all of which we get povs early in the story) which would tie in with Ned having no clue (and that his favorite horse is just that, a favorite horse).

I would think if Ned or Brandon or Lyanna had this connection, they might not have understood it. This knowledge seems to be something that the Stark's have lost. If you don't understand it, how can you explain it? Especially Ned, who doesn't seem to be a believer in such things, although he does take his time to commune with the weirwoods, which I do think is important. And yes, Ned's favorite horse might be nothing more than a favorite animal, with no deeper meaning. And it also reminds me of how Dany responded the first time she rode her silver mare. Almost as if magically connected to the animal, although she seems to think nothing odd about it at that time.

Bran does seem to have a bit of a jump start on his siblings, but that might be because of his near death experience? But I think that is more of him learning control. I wonder if the wolf dreams come first, and none of the children really understand? Do the direwolves understand? If it's a two-way consciousness? Is Rickon wild because Shaggydog is, or is Shaggydog wild because Rickon is a naughty, angry, confused toddler who is influencing his own direwolf?

I also find Sansa a bit of a puzzle. I believe that GRRM's comment on Lady's death says that Sansa is now a bit "adrift" but not that she has lost her "Stark-ness". I actually think Sansa is showing a connection to dogs, which seem to be the easiest animal to connect to. That old dog at Littlefinger's holdfast and she bonded quickly, and there is a black dog that appears near Joffrey as he dies, after Sansa has fled from the wedding feast, and I think that might be her watching through the dog. I might be very wrong about that, but that "thin black dog" sniffing at Joff's corpse is an odd detail, and Tyrion notices the dog a couple paragraphs after he mentions that he can't see Sansa any longer. I don't think that is a coincidence.  Sansa, of course, has quite a bit of bird imagery, and early in the story, her head seems to be in the proverbial "clouds" quite a bit. 

 

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In one of Leaf's conversations with Bran she refers to Direwolves as one of the old races. There is something unique about them and the paring with Starks is significant.

This makes me think about the giants, who are also one of these older races. Could a person skinchange a giant? 

[St Daga]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It seems hinted at that Sansa is forming a bond with an old blind dog at the Eyrie. That the dog is “blind” indicates Sansa’s third eye wasn’t open yet.

Perhaps that makes sense of why that old dog is blind, but would this then mean that Jon's "third eye" has been open from the very start, since Ghost had his eyes open when they found him? Except Jon doesn't seem to sense Ghost until after the five pups have been claimed?