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How could we find out about Aegon

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So first I was wondering, who would know the true identity of f/Aegon. I assume Varys, if the story that Young Griff tells is true. Then maybe JonCon? Though, it doesn't look like he will stay around much longer.

That led me to think about, how would we/Aegon find out the truth beyond a reasonable doubt of his parentage. Or maybe .... we don't?

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Varys will never expose Aegon if the boy really isn't son of Rhaegar. Aegon having Blackfyre to expose his identity to reader is a fantasy as Aegon already has a sword and dagger, Illyrio doesn't care about Westerosi houses and plays a global game instead, Daenerys and the cryptic messages she will receive make people think she is mad like her father. Jon Connington met Aegon/Young Griff as a boy of five/six, boy wasn't a mere baby to be passed of as a Targaryen. So no I don't think we will have Aegon's fakeness confirmed but many of his rivals will try to brand him as one. 

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1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

Varys will never expose Aegon if the boy really isn't son of Rhaegar. Aegon having Blackfyre to expose his identity to reader is a fantasy as Aegon already has a sword and dagger, Illyrio doesn't care about Westerosi houses and plays a global game instead, Daenerys and the cryptic messages she will receive make people think she is mad like her father. Jon Connington met Aegon/Young Griff as a boy of five/six, boy wasn't a mere baby to be passed of as a Targaryen. So no I don't think we will have Aegon's fakeness confirmed but many of his rivals will try to brand him as one. 

I agree. I don't think Varys would slip up or anything, but honestly, he would be the only one I really seeing that would know. Maybe Illyrio, forgot about him.

It could be interesting if we are never told if he is real or not, just given both sides of evidence and we must decide.

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Without new POVs through:

 

Arianne, Jon Con, Dany, Jon Snow, or Sam.

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5 hours ago, btfu806 said:

So first I was wondering, who would know the true identity of f/Aegon. I assume Varys, if the story that Young Griff tells is true. Then maybe JonCon? Though, it doesn't look like he will stay around much longer.

That led me to think about, how would we/Aegon find out the truth beyond a reasonable doubt of his parentage. Or maybe .... we don't?

The question should really be "who is Young Griff?"

Let's be honest.  We don't know who this young man is.  There are very serious doubts about his claims to the identity of Prince Aegon.  I lean towards authenticity due to the speech Varys gave to Kevan.  No reason to lie to a dying man, etc etc etc etc.  

Will the author confirm for us?  I think he will but that is far from certain.  His identity is very important.  You could say it's important for all of the nobles because it is what gives them the right to rule over the peasants.   It is more important for someone who grew up away from public eyes because he cannot and will not be able to provide direct proof.  

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1 hour ago, Anti-Stark said:

No reason to lie to a dying man

Well there is no reason to lie to a dying man when they are alone ... BUT Varys did have his Children of the Corn in the same room.

Varys gave Kevan the biography of Aegon that got the little birds to drool in their mouths ... to the point where the little kids would murder for Aegon.

What happens if Varys admit to Kevan that Aegon was fake in front of the children? Also what happens to one of the little birds if he/she gets captured later on? What happens to a spy when they get captured? ... messy stuff.

Varys had no reason to lie to a dying man, but no reason to tell the truth either. If people are listening ... better choose to safer option.

1 hour ago, Anti-Stark said:

Will the author confirm for us?  I think he will but that is far from certain.  His identity is very important. 

IMO, I think Aegon will have a short stint in TWOW with his Rebellion failing with his embarrassing death in battle. By then, we will never ever know if Aegon was real or not ... and it will be one of those questions that GRRM will never ever answer & it will be constantly debated over the years. But at the same time, it would be overshadowed by "It didn't matter if Aegon was real or not, he died way too early anyways"

I think the sole purpose of Aegon's story over 2 books is to have the sword Blackfrye be brought back to King's Landing. And I am confident that it will take 2 books to get Dark Sister back to King's Landing too ... and that story will be the mega-finale.

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One thing I would say as a joke, but I also wonder on as a possibility:  Blood magic being used almost as a DNA test in the story.  With all the blood magic and possible practitioner's in this world, such as Maggy the Frog, Melisandre, Marwin, Euron (Yikes), the fortune teller at The Happy Port in Braavos (just trying to list those I recall that used the blood magic for fortune telling or worse, LOL), I wonder if it could be a possibility and one that a character with questions might try and utilize.  Granted, I'm not sure how many of the possible practitioners I'd trust, but I'm still of the mind that it might be a real possibility, not just a joke. 

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I think, that the exposure will happen because of the Perfumed Seneschal.

When Tyrion and Jorah were on board of a ship Selaesori Qhoran/Fragrant Steward, Tyrion said this: "You hope to buy your way back into her favor by presenting her with me. An ill-considered scheme, I'd say. One might even say an act of drunken desperation. Perhaps if I were Jaime … but Jaime killed her father, I only killed my own. You think Daenerys will execute me and pardon you, but the reverse is just as likely. Maybe you should hop up on that pig, Ser Jorah. Put on a suit of iron motley, like Florian the—"

Florian the Fool is a legendary hero, who fell in love with Jonquil.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Florian_the_Fool

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jonquil

Jonquil is a flower, from the same family as narcissus and daffodil. 12 daffodil flowers/stars form a crown of Mother Mary. In Medieval ages Jonquil's oil was used as a base for making perfumes. Seneschal means the same thing as steward, servant - "Originally purely a household officer, the task of the steward, or seneschal , was to place dishes on the royal table, but like many comparable offices it gathered other duties and rose in prestige." <- from Google Translator.

So, in my opinion, the Perfumed Seneschal is fAegon's mother. fAegon is a mummer's dragon, the mummer is Varys, and the two of them are parallels to Biblical Dragon/Satan and to Antichrist/the Beast out of the Sea, depicted in Revelation (the last part of the Bible). Antichrist is a fake Messiah, that had appeared prior second coming of Jesus. In ASOIAF there are three saviours, three heads of the dragon (like Biblical Holy Trinity) - the Mother (Dany), the Son (Rhaego), the Holy Ghost (Jon). Dany and Rhaego are parallels to Mother Mary and Jesus (when he was born, his birth was heralded by a magic star, and following that star, three wisemen from the east came to the mother to see her child). If fAegon is a fake Messiah, then his mother is a fake Mary. Daffodils are Mary's flowers, and jonquils are a clue about fAegon's mother.

Florian was the greatest knight, and the greatest fool, and his armor was made of motley (it was multicolored). In a toy-story, depicted in The Hedge Knight novel, Florian said - "Sweet lady, all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned." The greatest living knight is Barristan Selmy. He had served to six rulers - Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Robert Baratheon, Joffrey Lannsiter, Daenerys Targaryen. One more is missing to complete his rainbow/motley. He will betray Dany, and it will be the last out of three treasons, predicted by the Undying, the treason for love. Barristan will betray Dany and will pledge to fAegon, because fAegon is his son. When Barristan will meet septa Lemore, he will recognize her. I think that her real identity is Lady Jeyne Swann (Barristan saved her from Kingswood Brotherhood, in 281). So, I think that Lemore/Jeyne and Barristan are fAegon's parents. And Barristan is partially Blackfyre, because, in my opinion, Barristan's mother was daughter of Aenys Blackfyre.

There's no evidences, it's just my theory.

So, based on this theory, I think that fAegon's real identity will become known because of his mother, septa Lemore, the Perfumed Seneschal.

And Quaithe, who is actually Shiera Seastar, had warned Dany about the Perfumed Seneschal, because she knows about Lemore. That's because years ago, same as Rhaegar, Shiera thought, that the conception of the Promised Prince will be heralded by a comet, but Shiera knew more information, she also knew when and where the comet will appear. So she was trying to manipulate for the Promised Prince to be born from the line of Blackfyres. She used shadow magic, and glamoured herself to look like a septa, and she was escorting Lady Jeyne, when they were attacked by Kingswood Brotherhood (it was a set up to get to Barristan, who is a carrier of dragon-genes). And when Barristan saved them, Shiera/septa gave to Barristan a love potion to drink, and Jeyne seduced him, and got pregnant. And it happened on the same night, when the real Aegon was conceived at King's Landing, and the comet was passing in the sky. Though it turned out, that that comet was just a comet, not a symbol of the Promised Prince, the right comet was the Bleeding Star, and the real Promised Prince is Rhaego (and Dany, and Jon, and their birth was also star-related. Jon, for example, was conceived at Starfall, at the place where thousands years ago had fallen a star, from heart of which was forged Dawn sword of Daynes, which is actually Azor Ahai's Lightbringer).

I know that all that seems very farfetched, though who else could be fAegon's parents? And why did GRRM mentioned that septa in Barristan's entry in the White Book? And why did he inserted in The Hedge Knight novel a scene, in which was depicted the death of the mummer's dragon?

"The puppeteer's stall had been knocked on its side. The fat Dornishwoman was on the ground weeping.

One man-at-arms was dangling the puppets of Florian and Jonquil from his hands as another set them afire with a torch. Three more men were opening chests, spilling more puppets on the ground and stamping on them. The dragon puppet was scattered all about them, a broken wing here, its head there, its tail in three pieces."

Florian - Barristan, Jonquil - septa Lemore/Lady Jeyne Swann, the fat Dornishwoman - pregnant Arianne Martell, mummer's dragon - fAegon. Maybe.

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23 hours ago, btfu806 said:

So first I was wondering, who would know the true identity of f/Aegon. I assume Varys, if the story that Young Griff tells is true. Then maybe JonCon? Though, it doesn't look like he will stay around much longer.

That led me to think about, how would we/Aegon find out the truth beyond a reasonable doubt of his parentage. Or maybe .... we don't?

Jon Con can't be the source of the truth, as he doesn't know it. He absolutely believes YG is Aegon, so we can be sure he has only raised one boy as Aegon but he was with the Golden Company for a time after his exile, and it is possible he was given a fake.

The two possible sources for the truth are Varys and Illyrio. If real Aegon was saved then Varys arranged it, if a fake was procured then Illyrio arranged that.

I think Varys is less likely to be the source of the truth. I don't fully understand his motivations, but he lives in Westeros so I think he must be more fully invested in the ploy of getting Aegon on the throne, so is more likely to maintain the narrative of Aegon as Rhaegar's son, regardless of the truth. I don't put much weight into Varys telling Kevan about Aegon because that is true regardless of the kid's provenance. It is absolutely true that Kevan's House and legacy are threatened by the advancing army headed by someone with the name Aegon .

Illyrio is I think a more likely source of the truth, he is less invested in the plot to win the throne for Aegon than he is in the boy himself. I would suggest that if we learn more from Illyrio of his love for Serra we will learn the truth of Aegon. I think Serra and Aegon must be linked, because they are the only two for whom Illyrio shows love and affection. I do not think Illyrio is the boys father, as why would he give up a son he loves for a throne he cares little for? - the boy must have belonged to Varys' plot before Illyrio developed affection for him. That brings me to my theory that after the original Aegon's death by Gregor, Varys decided to create a fake Aegon and needed to procure a child of the right age and looks. So Illyrio purchased a mother-and-baby/toddler slave set. Aegon is a convincing fake because rather than just picking a random child they went to the trouble of making sure that he had inherited his mother Serra's Targaryen-like features.

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As previously mentioned only Varys and Illyrio know where Aegon came from. To a certain extent it doesn't really matter. Varys's game largely involves around manipulating perceptions. It doesn't matter if he is really Rhaegar's son as much as the tale is successfully told. In a sense his "confession" to Kevan could well be meant as true. The kid might as well never have had a name other than Aegon and never meant to have been anything else than the mummer's dragon. 

That said personal motivation would make sense particularly on Varys's behalf as he has devoted a large part of his life to this plot. Given his background or the very little that we have been told about it, I think that Varys aims to create a king in Egg's image. Also while there is probably some connection to the Blackfyre line, this plot revolves a lot more around people associated with the Kingswood Brotherhood, a group that is in fact a lot more prominent in the main sequence books, more recent and has definite populist tendencies. 

 

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I believe that the reveal will come from Tyrion, who will tell Dany, whose armies look to be pointed towards Pentos. He's the only one putting 2+2 together, since many of the clues for Aegon's true identity come from Tyrion's chapter and his conclusions. He tells Dany, who confronts Illyrio. Whether or not Illyrio confesses and confirms Tyrion's conclusion, the explanation has been made to the reader. This will neatly tie in with Dany's Slayer of Lies/Mummer's Dragon prophecies, so she'll likely be the character who's there for the reveal.

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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Also while there is probably some connection to the Blackfyre line, this plot revolves a lot more around people associated with the Kingswood Brotherhood, a group that is in fact a lot more prominent in the main sequence books, more recent and has definite populist tendencies. 

What?

What plot revolves around people associated with the Kingswood Brotherhood? Who are those people, that are associated with the KB? How are they more prominent?

(out of all of them only Ulmer is still alive. Possibly, their leader, Simon Toyne, was brother of an ex-captain-general of Golden Company, Myles Toyne, who was friend of Jon Connington, prior Varys brought him fAegon. Unless one of my out of the box theories is correct, that Wenda the White Fawn is Pretty Meris of Windblown, and she is also Brienne's mother; and Big Belly Ben is possibly Strong Belvas).

What populist tendecies?

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

What?

What plot revolves around people associated with the Kingswood Brotherhood? Who are those people, that are associated with the KB? How are they more prominent?

(out of all of them only Ulmer is still alive. Possibly, their leader, Simon Toyne, was brother of an ex-captain-general of Golden Company, Myles Toyne, who was friend of Jon Connington, prior Varys brought him fAegon. Unless one of my out of the box theories is correct, that Wenda the White Fawn is Pretty Meris of Windblown, and she is also Brienne's mother; and Big Belly Ben is possibly Strong Belvas).

What populist tendecies?

Raising Aegon to the throne. Myles Toyne seems like he was a central figure, recruiting Jon Connington and enlisting the Golden Company. The Kingswood Brotherhood were also heroes to the small folk, which chimes with Varys's rhetoric. 

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Posted (edited)

Martin plays there traditional tale of usurpation of identity by a pretendent. There were many examples of it in history starting with Heliogabalus who was presented as illegitimate son of emperor Caracalla but in practice he was only a son of woman related to Julia Domna wife of emperor Septimius Severus. Still his rebellion succeeded and he was officialy a son of Caracalla (oficially Marcus Aurelius Commodus) but after his infamous reign and death, he was called Pseudo Antoninus. Other example is Pseudo Michael VII, Byzantine emperor who was in the hands of Norman duke Robert Guiscard who used him as a pretext to invade Byzantine empire. Real Michael VII was bishiop of Ephesus at the time and was later presented at besieged Dyrrachium to show that the other one is fake.

There are many more but Martin based his account on the history of Jean I of France presented by Maurice Druon in The Accursed Kings which I recommend for everyone to read. Basically Jean I was replaced with son of other character, Baglioni, in order to safe his life from poisoning. He was rised as someone else. Then his identity was revealed to him by Cola di Rienzo, so called tribune of Rome which has strong resemblence to Ilirio Mopatis. He went to France but no one took his claim and was soon imprisoned and we never heard of him. This was based on real story although swapping was fictional. So in Druon's novel he was real Jean I, in history he was a fake, like with all of these pretendents who miraculously come to life in time of turbulance. What path Martin went? I don't know and probably I will never know.

13 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Knowing GRRM, I could easily see him writing it in a way that we will never truly know for sure. 

I agree, because the truth doesn't matter, power resides where people believe it resides. It doesn't mater if he is real or if people and nobles will trully believe he is real. It's all about power and politics, if his claim would be useful for lord then he will follow his claim. I suppose Daenerys will not believe he is real only because he can't prove it and that he stands in her way to the throne, like Aegon II stood in a way of Rhaenyra, how it ended for both of them we know and it will end probably the same for Daenerys and fAegon.

Edited by White26

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11 hours ago, Lluewhyn said:

I believe that the reveal will come from Tyrion, who will tell Dany, whose armies look to be pointed towards Pentos. He's the only one putting 2+2 together, since many of the clues for Aegon's true identity come from Tyrion's chapter and his conclusions. He tells Dany, who confronts Illyrio. Whether or not Illyrio confesses and confirms Tyrion's conclusion, the explanation has been made to the reader. This will neatly tie in with Dany's Slayer of Lies/Mummer's Dragon prophecies, so she'll likely be the character who's there for the reveal.

I agree with this.

It'd be cool if she found out in Pentos from Tyrion + confronting Illyrio, then goes straight across the narrow sea to King's Landing. Then challenges him, "if you're really my nephew my dragons should like you, right?" So he tries...

...and it turns out Serra was just enough of a Blackfyre that they do, in fact, like him. So they fight. And King's Landing burns green.

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Posted (edited)

@White26 Indeed. In fact, important point of the whole game of thrones is precisely that "power resides where people believe it resides" (although, how do dragons fit in that?). So it is less important what Aegon is, and more what people believe him to be. If everybody believes him to be Rhaegar's son, does it really matter that he is not? And that may play into another question: what matters? That is why I think/hope Martin will (temporarily) make Daenerys into a bad ruler while Aegon will prove to be effective ruler, if for a short time; it will provide a jutapoxition of a ruler with questionable dynastic legitimacy but proven competence, vs ruler with proven dynastic legitimacy but questionable competence.

Edited by Aldarion

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