How could we find out about Aegon

[White26]

47 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

@White26 Indeed. In fact, important point of the whole game of thrones is precisely that "power resides where people believe it resides" (although, how do dragons fit in that?). So it is less important what Aegon is, and more what people believe him to be. If everybody believes him to be Rhaegar's son, does it really matter that he is not? And that may play into another question: what matters? That is why I think/hope Martin will (temporarily) make Daenerys into a bad ruler while Aegon will prove to be effective ruler, if for a short time; it will provide a jutapoxition of a ruler with questionable dynastic legitimacy but proven competence, vs ruler with proven dynastic legitimacy but questionable competence.

If he wins, he will be Aegon VI Targaryen, son of Rhaegar, if he lose, he will be branded as impostor and no one. I could even imagine it would be satisfying to Varys to put a Blackfyre on the throne in disguise. It would be in line with his whole character.

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

@White26 Indeed. In fact, important point of the whole game of thrones is precisely that "power resides where people believe it resides" (although, how do dragons fit in that?). So it is less important what Aegon is, and more what people believe him to be. If everybody believes him to be Rhaegar's son, does it really matter that he is not? And that may play into another question: what matters? That is why I think/hope Martin will (temporarily) make Daenerys into a bad ruler while Aegon will prove to be effective ruler, if for a short time; it will provide a jutapoxition of a ruler with questionable dynastic legitimacy but proven competence, vs ruler with proven dynastic legitimacy but questionable competence.

Yes, and much of Daemon Blackfyre's versus Daeron the Good plot revolves around the same theme. Daemon Blackfyre looked the part and was what a great many lords wanted for their warrior-king. In contrast Daeron the Good wasn't a warrior at all and shaded by Aegon IV not to be his actual son, but potentially the son of Naerys and his brother Aemon. I actually surmise that Aegon IV hit on the truth by accident. Even if Naerys and Aemon were pious people, they were also just people and it's implied there might have been a moment of weakness, after which Aemon took up the cloak of the KG. We also get stories on why Daemon rebelled, but the timing doesn't work. So, I believe that BS and Daemon came into possession of a witness, and that's when Daemon finally decided to call Daeron an illigitemate king.

So, history decided that Daeron was the true son of Aegon IV, and maester Yandel has a reason to preserve this perception, as Joffrey and Tommen are still supposed to be Robert's sons, and Robert is supposed to be a Targaryen descendant through his grand-mother, who was a great-granddaughter of Daeron the Good. Dany herself derives from Daeron's bloodline. But I believe he was in fact fathered by Aemon instead of Aegon IV, and thus a "bastard". Meanwhile Daemon Blackfyre is also a bastard, but he was Aegon IV's son.

But does it matter? No. What mattered is who would have made for the better king for the realm's sake? Daemon or Daeron? I'd go with Daeron.

The whole Blackfyre question actually puts a shade on Dany's claim too, via Daeron. And once again the question ought to be - who would make for the better ruler?

It's easy to side with Ned deciding against Joffrey, when you know what a sadistic awful shit Joffrey is. But if Joffrey had been more like Tommen, or Tommen older so that Cersei couldn't usurp his power for her shenanigans, is it worth plumeting the realm into war over? We modern readers at least should be able to question this "the right to rule because of inheritance" as morally enlightened. It isn't. That's why we vote every 4-5 years.  

[White26]

Yes and it could be said the same in history, what proof we have that one king is a son of another. There is other good Byzantine example, Leon VI the Macedonian. He wa supposed to be a son of Basil I, founder of a dynasty. Basil was an adviser of Michael III the Amorian whom he assassinated and took the throne. What is interesting, Basil was married to Eudokia Ingerina, former mistress of Michael.  It is speculated that Leon VI is in fact son of Michael III, not Basil I. So officially Amorian dynasty went extinct with Michael III but there is a possiblity that it lived on through Michael VI. 

BTW paralel with Tywin Joanna and Aerys is striking.

[Wolfbynature]

fAegon is definitely fake. 

Why?

Because he has a story, that only makes sense in hindsight. 

Ok, there was a unrecognisable baby-boy with a destroyed skull. No one could tell if he really was Aegon.

So, because of this, Varys could present a baby to Lord Connington and claime that this was the saved Aegon. 

But to take advantage of this fact before the murder happened, Varys had to know, that the the boy would not only be killed, but killed in a way that leaves him unrecognisable. 

Varys also had to convince Aegon´s Mother Elia of the baby swap. He had to convince her, that Aegon was safer with him then with her. And on the other hand, in the presence of immediate danger, that he is either not willing or not able to do anything for her or Aegon´s Sister Rhaenys. 

Nonetheless Elia agreed to his plan. 

Think a minute about that. Lets imagine a possible dialog

Elia to Varys: Lord Varys, what are you doing here? Why do you have a baby in your arms?

Varys: Your Grace, your son Aegon is in danger, all of you. Lets swap the babys to save his live.

Elia: I do not understand. But we are innocent. They wo´nt do us any harm.  

Varys: Tywin Lannister is a cruel man. He will send Ser Gregor Clegane. He will probably kill everyone.

Elia: Then help us escape from here.

Varys: No, I can´t help all of you. I have only plans for the baby.

Elia: At least take Rhaenys with you, please.

Varys: No, only the baby!

Elia: Ok, you can have Aegon, but why the other baby? He does´nt look like Aegon.

Varys: Your Grace it is cruel, do I really have to explain?

Elia: Of course, you want to take my baby son away from me.

Varys: Imagine they dash his head against the wall, over and over again, until he becomes unrecognisable.

Elia: (...speechless..., then after a few seconds) How do you know?

Varys: Just trust me, I know things.

Then, Elia gave him the baby and waited for the inevitable.

REALLY???

[Lluewhyn]

3 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

fAegon is definitely fake. 

Why?

Because he has a story, that only makes sense in hindsight. 

 

When I read these parts in ADWD, I was thinking to myself "This is Bullshit, there's NO WAY that this would have been planned beforehand!", and thought it was a bunch of hack writing.

I didn't come across the Blackfyre theory until years later, and realized I hadn't given GRRM enough credit. It's *supposed* to sound ridiculous to the reader as a clue.

[btfu806]

20 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Knowing GRRM, I could easily see him writing it in a way that we will never truly know for sure. 

This is how I am leaning as well. I think the text will give us tons of evidence for both sides and it will be a debate.

8 hours ago, Aldarion said:

@White26 Indeed. In fact, important point of the whole game of thrones is precisely that "power resides where people believe it resides" (although, how do dragons fit in that?). So it is less important what Aegon is, and more what people believe him to be. If everybody believes him to be Rhaegar's son, does it really matter that he is not? And that may play into another question: what matters? That is why I think/hope Martin will (temporarily) make Daenerys into a bad ruler while Aegon will prove to be effective ruler, if for a short time; it will provide a jutapoxition of a ruler with questionable dynastic legitimacy but proven competence, vs ruler with proven dynastic legitimacy but questionable competence.

The more and more I think about Aegon/FakeAegon the more I kinda think the point of Young Griff is to show how people will follow an idea (made into man in this case).  Maybe the word idea is wrong, but in general, they will not always need proof or reason to follow someone to a throne. I really see us getting more evidence that he is both real and fake and us never finding out since he probably dies. I do think he takes the throne for a bit though. His arc is honestly the one that fascinates me the most right now because I think it could so many directions.

[btfu806]

4 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

But to take advantage of this fact before the murder happened, Varys had to know, that the the boy would not only be killed, but killed in a way that leaves him unrecognisable. 

Varys also had to convince Aegon´s Mother Elia of the baby swap. He had to convince her, that Aegon was safer with him then with her. And on the other hand, in the presence of immediate danger, that he is either not willing or not able to do anything for her or Aegon´s Sister Rhaenys. 

Well, we knew the mountain was going after Elia and her family right? Varys could make the assumption or come up with other ways to make the baby unidentifiable (paying a soldier to burn the bodies or something).

And Elia must have known the war wasn't going in her favor... Raegar had just died at the battle of the trident and before the sack of king's landing happened she could have easily sent away her son. That's not that hard to believe in my opinion.

But I do think we are supposed to believe that Aegon isn't real. And he may definitely not be, I could easily see that too. I guess I am fascinated with why he is even here if he is a fake.

[Lluewhyn]

33 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

But I do think we are supposed to believe that Aegon isn't real. And he may definitely not be, I could easily see that too. I guess I am fascinated with why he is even here if he is a fake.

One theory is that the trope of "Hidden Prince" will be a compared and contrasted with him and Jon Snow.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

I guess I am fascinated with why he is even here if he is a fake.

Because, in my opinion, fAegon is GRRM's parallel to Biblical Antichrist, a fake saviour, that appeared prior coming of the real Messiah. In the Bible Antichrist was depicted as a Beast that came out of the sea. It had seven heads, and one of those heads was mortally wounded, but then healed itself. Which is similar to cover story, that Varys made for fAegon - little Aegon was killed, his head was smashed, but here he is - alive and well, so welcome the true King of Westros. People were owed by the miracle, made by that self-healing head, and then started to worship the Beast, and proclaimed him the saviour. Then came the real Messiah, and burned both the Beast of the sea, and the one who created him - a Dragon/Satan. So fAegon is a mummer's dragon, and Varys is a parallel to Biblical Dragon/Satan, the mummer who is behind fAegon.

54 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

One theory is that the trope of "Hidden Prince" will be a compared and contrasted with him and Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is the real Promised Prince (same as Jesus in the Bible). Jon, Dany and Rhaego are parallels to Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, and to the Holy Trinity. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, he is a parallel to the second coming of Jesus. And prior Jesus (as the Lamb of God, slain but standing), appeared during events of Apocalypse, his coming was preceded by appearance of a fake saviour - the Beast out of the sea. That Beast had seven heads, five of which had horns, and two didn't had horns. In ASOIAF dragons have horns. So, the Beast out of the sea, in GRRM's version is Golden Company. Five of its captain-generals were Blackfyres - heads with horns, and two (Myles Toyne and Harry Strickland) were not dragonseeds, and thus had no horns. Also in the Bible, the Beast had an eight head, that was separately from the other seven. So, it seems that Varys, who is, most likely, a Blackfyre, is that eight head.

In his previous books GRRM was also using a lot of Biblical symbols, like in this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses"

[btfu806]

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Because, in my opinion, fAegon is GRRM's parallel to Biblical Antichrist, a fake saviour, that appeared prior coming of the real Messiah. In the Bible Antichrist was depicted as a Beast that came out of the sea. It had seven heads, and one of those heads was mortally wounded, but then healed itself. Which is similar to cover story, that Varys made for fAegon - little Aegon was killed, his head was smashed, but here he is - alive and well, so welcome the true King of Westros. People were owed by the miracle, made by that self-healing head, and then started to worship the Beast, and proclaimed him the saviour. Then came the real Messiah, and burned both the Beast of the sea, and the one who created him - a Dragon/Satan. So fAegon is a mummer's dragon, and Varys is a parallel to Biblical Dragon/Satan, the mummer who is behind fAegon.

Jon Snow is the real Promised Prince (same as Jesus in the Bible). Jon, Dany and Rhaego are parallels to Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, and to the Holy Trinity. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, he is a parallel to the second coming of Jesus. And prior Jesus (as the Lamb of God, slain but standing), appeared during events of Apocalypse, his coming was preceded by appearance of a fake saviour - the Beast out of the sea. That Beast had seven heads, five of which had horns, and two didn't had horns. In ASOIAF dragons have horns. So, the Beast out of the sea, in GRRM's version is Golden Company. Five of its captain-generals were Blackfyres - heads with horns, and two (Myles Toyne and Harry Strickland) were not dragonseeds, and thus had no horns. Also in the Bible, the Beast had an eight head, that was separately from the other seven. So, it seems that Varys, who is, most likely, a Blackfyre, is that eight head.

In his previous books GRRM was also using a lot of Biblical symbols, like in this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses"

I could definitely see parallels to the bible with this. It's been a while since I have read revelations (and it's not an easy read) so I would have to dive back into that a bit. So, Jon is Jesus, that's fine. I could definitely see then fAegon being the antichrist, or at least one that leads people away from their true savior (Jon). But didn't the beast speak against God? Did it come as the false savior? The Antichrist (or false teacher) is only in the book of John I think, which is kinda ironic with Jon Snow..

Also would the only Varys = Satan parallel just be that he brought fAegon?

 

[asongofheresy]

On 6/24/2019 at 9:54 PM, btfu806 said:

I agree. I don't think Varys would slip up or anything, but honestly, he would be the only one I really seeing that would know. Maybe Illyrio, forgot about him.

It could be interesting if we are never told if he is real or not, just given both sides of evidence and we must decide.

I think the evidence of him being real triumphs the evidence of him being fake, as fakeness evidence are all circumstances. Aegon's story does make sense. His head was bashed against the Wall and he was unrecognizable, the only one who told the baby was really Aegon was Tywin, who never saw Aegon himself. He was saved by Varys and looked after by Illyrio, regarding their conflicting past we are told Varys would steal things and Illyrio the Braavo will return them with a payment. That's what Varys and Illyrio did with Aegon, stole him to return him for a price. 

I know, I know, Serra and her hands. Serra can't be a Blackfyre when we are told Rohanne's influence in Tyrosh caused Targaryens to marry Kiera to two crown princes. Bloodraven also can't kill Daemon II because of her, and Daemon's sisters and brothers. Serra can't be a descendant of Bittersteel since he didn't have a child. But Serra can be a descendant of Saera Targaryen, whose wealth will diminish for Serra to end up as a slave. Serra's hands can't be kept by Illyrio knowing grey plague effects fingers and toes first, even the mice that carried the illness had stone feet. Serra's hands will be cut to save her, not kept as memoir. 

Another problem is Aegon's features. Daenerys has to wear purple dress while meeting Drogo so her purple eyes will be accented, Aegon has to wear a blue dye to hide his purple eyes. Aegon has indigo eyes and silver hair, same as Rhaegar. Viserys has lilac eyes while Daenerys has violet eyes. Serra has blue eyes and Illyrio has pigs eyes, Varys' eye color is never mentioned. Serra has gold hair with silver streaks, Illyrio has yellow hair. These two individuals can't have a child like Aegon. There is also zero proof about Varys and Serra being related, no matter how many bullshit theories written about them. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

When Daenerys is betrayed by Illyrio for blood, by Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love. 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Also would the only Varys = Satan parallel just be that he brought fAegon?

There's more parallels. The Woman Clothed in the Sun, mother of new Jesus, was chased by the Dragon. He was held back at the God's throne, and the Woman managed to escape from him into wilderness. There she gave birth to her son, and he was taken into heaven (not died). Then later her son appeared on a white horse in the sky. He was called King of kings, and Lord of lords. Also about him it was said, that he is the great shepherd, that will lead all nations. There was sword coming out of his mouth, and he was leading an army of horsemen.

Nearly identical to Rhaego's story. When Varys found out, that Dany is pregnant, he sent his agent to kill her. Though Varys was held back at the Iron Throne, because of the War of the Five Kings, and couldn't get to Dany. She went into the Red Waste, and gave birth to Rhaego. Then Rhaego was kidnapped by Dothraki, and taken into the sacred city, Vaes Dothrak (probably. It's just one of my theories). His kidnapping is the treason for blood. Khal Pono, who was Drogo's Ko, or blood of his blood, kidnapped Drogo's son. Rhaego is the Stallion that mounts the world. According to the prophecy he is Khal of khals (khal in Dothraki means king), and all people of the world will be his herd (the great shepherd like Jesus). In Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, she saw grown up Rhaego, under banner of fiery stallion (combination of R'hllor's symbol and Dothraki symbol). There was fire coming out of his mouth, like there was sword coming out of Jesus' mouth. Fire is R'hllor's weapon. Rhaego's heart was burning. In ASOIAF burning heart is R'hllor's symbol (used by Melisandre and her followers). Burning heart is a symbol of Jesus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart

On many icons Jesus is depicted with burning heart, while his mother's heart is pierced with a sword (or seven swords), which is used by GRRM, as a basis for Nissa Nissa, and her death from Azor Ahai's sword.

Also there's a picture, and a verse in the Bible, where Jesus is treading on four beasts - lion, dragon, snake, and basilisk (a cross of snake and chicken, the king of snakes) - possibly Lannisters, Varys, Martells, and maybe Illyrio or someone else.

And I think that Littlefinger is a parallel to the Beast out of the Earth, the Falce Prophet. That Beast in the Bible had dragon's voice, and lamb's horns. I think that Littlefinger is a secret dragonseed, in my opinion his ancestor was the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was son of Aegon IV and his own daughter, Jeyne Lothston, whose mother was Falena Stokeworth (lamb on a green field, with a chalise in its front paw, is a sigil of House Stokeworth. A bit similar to symbol of Agnus Dei). My guess is that the Bastard of Harrenhal was first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, and grandfather of Shella Whent, and father of Littlefinger's great great grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos (i.e. first he (the Bastard) had a child in Braavos, with one of his relatives, Black Pearl of Braavos, and then married in Westeros, went into service of House Lothston, and brought their dawnfall, and that way made himself Lord of Harrenhal). If my guess is correct, then Littlefinger and Catelyn Tully were third cousins, and all of Cat's children have a bit of dragon blood, about 1/32 (that's from their mother's side, but I also think that there is additionally a bit of dragon-blood on the Stark side of their family tree. Could be that Melissa Blackwood, mistress of Aegon IV and mother of Bloodraven and his two sisters, was daughter of Mariah Stark and granddaughter of Cregan Stark (I got that idea, because Cregan Stark fought against Kingsguard Aemon the Dragonknight, who was Aegon IV's brother, and the timing fits (for Melissa to be Cregan's granddaughter)). Then Melissa's daughter, Mya Rivers, married back into Blackwood family, and Melantha Blackwood possibly was her daughter, this Melantha married with Willam Stark, and they are grandparents of Rickard Stark (father of Ned, Lyanna, Benjen and Brandon). Which means that Bloodraven and Bran are bloodrelated. Also I think that it's possible, that current Starks are closely bloodrelated to current Targaryens, not only thru Jon. Possibly Betha Blackwood, wife of Aegon V, and mother of Jaehaerys II, was sister of Melantha Blackwood, wife of Willam Stark. So, not only current Starks are carriers of dragon-blood, but also that Dany and her son Rhaego have a bit of Stark-blood, which means that Dany, Rhaego and Jon share a lot of common ice-and-fire genes).

[Gingin]

He will fall off a dragon. Or he will be eaten by one. Or both.

 

Maybe Bran can reveal his past?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

fAegon is definitely fake. 

Why?

Because he has a story, that only makes sense in hindsight. 

Ok, there was a unrecognisable baby-boy with a destroyed skull. No one could tell if he really was Aegon.

So, because of this, Varys could present a baby to Lord Connington and claime that this was the saved Aegon. 

But to take advantage of this fact before the murder happened, Varys had to know, that the the boy would not only be killed, but killed in a way that leaves him unrecognisable. 

No he didn't. He didn't need the stunt double to be unrecognizable. That bought him some extra time to get the kid safely far away, but it was not 100% necessary for the plan. And this is Varys...he could have gotten to the corpse and messed up the face himself if he really needed to.

The whole point of getting a stunt double was getting one that looked Valyrian--not difficult in a city ruled by Targaryen men for nearly three centuries. Silver hair? Check. Purple eyes? Check. Right age? Check. Tywin and his men were not going to be familiar with the kid, and wouldn't expect a switch, so there would be no reason to look further than those three things.

 

12 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

<snip>

Varys also had to convince Aegon´s Mother Elia of the baby swap.

<snip>

Elia would have absolutely have known Aegon's life was in danger if rebel forces reached the city. She would have known Tywin Lannister, having sat out most of the war, would not be there to save the Targaryens. And she would also have known Varys could sneak her son out of King's Landing. Varys was probably the only person who could come close to guaranteeing her baby's safe evacuation from the city. 

 

12 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

<snip>

 And on the other hand, in the presence of immediate danger, that he is either not willing or not able to do anything for her or Aegon´s Sister Rhaenys. 

<snip>

This is also not necessarily true. First of all, Rhaenys was less likely to be killed because she was a mere girl and there is no precedent in Westeros for a woman ruling in her own right (Rhaenyra doesn't count, as her brief 6 month reign is rather an in-world example of why women shouldn't rule). She and her mother both would have made very attractive hostages. Tywin's wanting Rhaenys dead was probably less about anyone potentially leading a rebellion in her name than the danger that Robert would be persuaded to wait for her to grow up and marry her (not a bad plan as it would bring Targaryen loyalists in, and allow Robert more than a decade of playing around as much as he liked). Tywin saw his shot to get Cersei married to a king and he wasn't going to let anyone get in the way, even an innocent three year old girl.

Second, there may have been a plan to get Rhaenys out, but she ran and hid. You can't get the kid out if you can't find the kid.

Third, who said Varys told Elia he wasn't going to get Rhaenys out? Even with no such plan in mind, he might have let her think both her children would be taken to safety so that she would agree. Varys tends not to outright lie so much as allow people to think what they want to think while he's busy being cryptic.

On the topic at hand: we will find out only if GRRM wants us to know.  

[The Sleeper]

The story of Aegon's "salvation" is implausible if it is the original plan.

Otherwise, having a double for an infant heir apparent is not that far fetched, especially with an attack imminent and the original idea had been for the double to buy some time for the original to escape. Then the circumstances could have twisted the original plan to what we have today. 

What makes the tale unreliable is that it is presented as an origin story and orchestrated by a mummer. It is made unreliable by the fact that the people around Aegon are exiles and criminals and the one person verifying his identity, Connington, was brought in after the fact, which makes it likely that he was brought in for that reason specifically. 

What nearly seals it, is the vision from the house of the Undying. Aegon is the Mummer's Dragon. The vision also pretty much lays out that he will be uncovered by Dany. How remains to be seen. 

Another person who might know his true origin could be Septa Lemore. We have been focusing on who she has been (Wenda the White Fawn) and not on what her role is. Obviously Varys and Illyrio on one hand Connington on the other do not trust each other. So it would make sense for the former pair to have someone they would trust to keep an eye on things. There are really only two candidates. Lemore and Haldon. The latter is clearly subordinate to Connington and in the case of the former she seems to know at least a bit about disguises and and is the only one of Aegon's retinue to voice an opinion about their course of action. 

[Wolfbynature]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

This is also not necessarily true. First of all, Rhaenys was less likely to be killed

On the one hand, Varys was very smart in saving the boy, on the other hand he didn´t knew about the danger for Rhaenys live? E.g. the hatred of Robert against all Targaryans, the political situation of Hause Lannister... No, it was very likely for her to be killed. 

 

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No he didn't. He didn't need the stunt double to be unrecognizable. That bought him some extra time to get the kid safely far away, but it was not 100% necessary for the plan.

I have to disagree. You presume that Robert, Eddard and Tywin are stupid. That they won´t ask the right people to indentify persons they did not knew personally. They certainly asked someone who knew Elia and her children, to identify the dead bodies as the royal family. And if it had been necessary (or useful) there were for sure a lot people involved in the fostering of a royal baby. Wetnurses,  midwifes, servants... 

I would not dare to lie in front of Tywin Lannister. Especially if I were not the only person who is
asked. And please do not presume that all of them were paid by Varys.

I had babys myself. You can differ them, even if they have the same hair and eye colour.

 

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Otherwise, having a double for an infant heir apparent is not that far fetched, especially with an attack imminent and the original idea had been for the double to buy some time for the original to escape

Yes this was done to fool people with little knowledge about the real appearance of a prince, princess, lord... To overcome certain situations, e.g. unevoidable puplic appearances when the real prince stays at a safe place. But I doubt this was done before the sack of KL for any purpose with baby Aegon. If it was done, then under the impression of the treat from the enemy entering KL.

But If time was a factor, then don´t waste it with a doppelganger. There was no chance to fool people
like Tywin Lannister a long time with a doppelganger. 

 

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Second, there may have been a plan to get Rhaenys out, but she ran and hid. You can't get the kid out if you can't find the kid.

Third, who said Varys told Elia he wasn't going to get Rhaenys out? Even with no such plan in mind, he might have let her think both her children would be taken to safety so that she would agree.

Aegon and Rhaenys without her Mother? Why not all of them? And if all of them, then the baby swap becomes useless. A mother would never agree to be seperated from her children without a VERY good reason and a lot of trust. I do´nt see the reason and the trust.

 

 

 

[John Suburbs]

On 6/25/2019 at 3:49 PM, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Knowing GRRM, I could easily see him writing it in a way that we will never truly know for sure. 

Brash, young Aegon gets himself killed in his first battle, leaving Varys/Illyrio's plans in ashes and letting us readers debate his true identity forever.

Anything else adds a whole lot more plot that, IMHO, can't be reasonably inserted into two remaining novels.

 

[LadyOfCastamere]

@Megorova I like your idea that GRRM may have based Aegon's story on what's depicted in the Revelation, but there's one mistake - The Holy Trinity doesn't consist of Mother, Son and Holy Ghost but of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Unless you are part of a church that teaches these things differently, then please ignore my comment.

My thoughts on how the Revelation is mirrored in GRRM's story:

Since GRRM was brought up Catholic (but is not a believer anymore) and many Catholics do believe The Mother Mary to be part of the Holy Trinity, this may play out similarly in the story. She may be perceived as a legitimate Targaryen with the prospect of taking her rightful place and bringing peace. She is called Mother of Dragons which may go hand in hand with the ''motherly face'' Mother Mercy of the Seven - who is in reality, however, nothing but another God of Death (and therefore, a FALSE religion). That the hope of her bringing peace and mercy will be completely crushed is basically confirmed by GRRM in regards to how the TV-series played out. She is not Mother Mercy and is NOT part of the Holy Trinity bringing peace and salvation. Rather, it seems, she is the Whore Babylon, riding the horrible Beast, the ''Mother of Sin'', whose first ambition becomes fighting anyone who believes in the Messiah. For AsoIaF this could mean that she will go mad at the idea of Jon being the rightful heir, consequently going on a killing spree of anyone who declares himself a supporter of Jon. Her reign, however, will be short, her glory will fade quickly and she will be poor, dirty and helpless - at which the ''true believers'' will find immense joy.

It does seem plausible that Varys turns out to be the False Prophet, announcing Aegon, the 'Antichrist' to be the rightful heir and 'savior' of Westeros. They deem him to be the rightful ruler with his beautiful looks, charismatic appearance and dub him The Prince of Peace - who will subsequently prove himself false by leading the world into war and chaos.

Back to the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I could see the son to be Jon who was raised from the dead (let us see IF Jon is resurrected and how long he stays dead. If it's 3 days and 3 nights, we will know). Holy Ghost could very well be, in fact, Ghost. Just as Jesus, who only physically, but never mentally (as in, his soul) died and was known to be filled with the Holy Ghost, it could be an interesting analogy to how Jon's body will be killed, but the 'Holy Ghost' (direwolf Ghost) stays. Again, I'm curious if GRRM will give us clues here, if Jon will be buried or hidden away and then suddenly go missing, only to openly appear later and shock all.
What remains is the question of who Jon's (Jesus') Father is. This is also the dividing question in the Gospel - is Joseph (Ned) his father, making him a simple mortal man, or is he indeed, as he claims, the offspring of the respected Father in Heaven (Rhaegar)? If Jon is indeed Rhaegar's son, then he is the legitimate heir and rightful ruler. At the very least the Targaryen loyalists, who may be the Jewish population in this context, will care to know if his claim is real or not and whether they will see him as the Messiah or Prince that was promised (very close to what the Bible promises). 

There are also other, smaller indications for the equation Jon = Jesus:
- Born at Starfall (star leading the 3 Kings - who could be Arther Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent)
- Circumstances of conceiving questioning the parent's fidelity: Mary proposedly having ''cheated'' on Joseph / Ned having ''cheated'' on Cat
- Expectations of the people: People expecting the Messiah to be special in terms of looks and, ofc, deeds from early on, which is not given. Jesus' appearance was neither outstanding nor different from his environment and there were no special deeds in his youth. The only notable thing was his eagerness to learn and how fast he improved his knowledge and abilities in religious matters. It gave him a strange aura. Jon has the plainest Nothern looks, does not appear special and is constantly feeling isolated/ different from the rest
- Jesus will lead his army against the Devil and his worshippers and will win, proving himself to be who he always said to be. Gives us an idea that Jon may be the one riding us all of the Others.
- Jon wielding ''Lightbringer'' - Jesus being the Light of the world
I'm sure there is more, but this is what I could think of at the top of my head.


On a different note - IF Varys indeed switched baby Aegon with some other baby, then why did he leave out Rhaenys? Was she too old, too recognizable? If it was truly about reestablishing the Targaryen rule then it would've been wiser to save her as well as the potential bride.
I can see him predicting a lot of the things that happened since it was he who kept whispering tales of conspiracies into Aerys'II ear, hoping for him to go mad and disqualify himself. Varys made it pretty clear to Kevan that Kevan himself did not deserve to die at his hands, but it was necessary since he brought too much stability to the realm - something Varys tried to avoid since he came into the service of Aerys II. 
IF, and we can assume that it was indeed, his aim was to cause chaos (Creepyfinger nod), then saving Aegon would've meant his issue was only with Aerys II. In that case, he just meant to replace the current King with a ''better one'' without messing up the legitimacy of the chosen heir. Aerys II was not always paranoid and mad though. In the beginning, he seemed to have been acceptable, even decent.

So why would Varys even proceed the way he did? He must've wanted the Targaryens gone for a private reason and in that case, saving Aegon, the legitimate heir, would make no sense. That is why I'm pretty he must be lying and from what history tells us, it does seem to be nothing but another Blackfyre attempt.


 

[asongofheresy]

Rhaenys wasn't left out of Varys' plans, if she was saved Rhaenys would be equally important, but she escaped from the nursery to hide under her father's bed. You can't save  child if you don't know where she is. Varys also won't think Rhaenys was in danger like Aegon, because she was only a princess while her brother was the heir. Normally Rhaenys and Elia would make valuable hostages against the loyalists. Elia would agree to save her son before her daughter.