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Jabar of House Titan

Rewriting Season 5...or How You Can Make Two Good Seasons out of Feast AND Dance

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2019 at 6:11 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Care to sketch out an outline of how your preferred versions of those seasons would go, as Bryan Caplan did? What would form the midpoint of Feast/Dance? 

So, a little backstory: in the Rank the Seasons thread, @FictionIsntReal asked me to sketch out an outline of how my preferred version of season that adapted Feast/Dance should have gone. He asked me that after I had made a statement that there was no excuse for season 5 to be that bad and for the following seasons to be rushed. My logic was that if they can split A Storm of Swords into two seasons why not do the same for A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons?

Okay so picking up from season 4, this is what I (or anyone with sense and respect for the source material) would have done. As a word of caution, it's going to be long. I'm going to do this all by main character first. Then I will give a brief overview and run through the secondary characters in the next post. Season 5 breakpoint will be in blue and season 6 breakpoint will be in purple.

Let's start with the Stark kids. Okay, so we all should know by this point, that the main purpose of the five year gap was to level up the younger characters and give them adult roles and responsibilities that would've helped make their role saving/rebuilding more realistic. This is part of the reason why Bran, Sansa and Arya have "minor" roles in Feast and Dance, why Samwell Tarly only got a travelogue in Feast, why most of Tyrion's chapters in Dance were fillery and repetitive, etcetera etcetera...

BRAN

We know that Bran -- for some reason beyond the vast majority of audiences -- was entirely cut out from season 5. Why they did this when they knew that he was going to become some kind of eerily benevolent god-king with omniscient psychic powers at the end of the series is a testament to how atrocious D&D are but that's another subject. However, as much as it nauseates me to say this, I have to speak in D&D's defense here. Bran only had three chapters in Dance with much of it already finding its way or being alluded to in season 4. I understand the logic of cutting out not only Bran but Arya and Sansa as well. However, you can't do that for a bunch of reasons, writing- and business-based.

So, with Bran, you have to write original material around the parts of Dance that didn't make it into season 4. You could've spent season 5 treating Bran like Snow White. He had been on the run from the Queen and miraculously survived the Huntsman in seasons 3-4. Season 5 is when the Seven Dwarves come in; the Seven Dwarves being the Children of the Forest that were in the cave. Yes, there was more than one CoTF in the cave: Leaf, Ash, Black Knife, Coals, Scales and Snowylocks. Bran is a still a kid at this point and has an established history of loving stories. Plus, the caves that the CoTF are reported to live in now are reputably massive underground villages (similar to High Heart).

Bran can spend season 5 getting to know about the Children of the Forest, hearing their stories and seeing their magic (important for the viewers as well) before being brought to the Last Greenseer which would either happen in the finale or the penultimate episode. Think of Pan's Labyrinth, Snow White and Alice in Wonderland but with a creepier air to it.

It has to be creepy because that's what Bran becomes and projects at the end of the show.

In season 6, Bran finally begins studying under the 3ER. Here, we learn that the 3ER was once a Targaryen bastard named Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers (important for the viewers!!!). Bran begins learning more about the mechanics of his psychic skinchanging powers, learning on his own and being taught by Bloodraven. Bloodraven tells Bran about greenseeing and green dreams with Meera pointing out that's what Jojen had. Maybe Bloodraven tells Bran (or shows Bran in a dream) the story of Varamyr Sixskins as a cautionary tale. Bran's season 6 story ends when he gets the weirwood paste. It unlocks his greenseeing powers and sends him on a time-travelling psychedelic trip through the weirwood net.

You can weave a love story (mostly one-sided) between Bran and Meera. You might need another human character here for Bran and Meera to play off of since Jojen died in the season 4 finale and Hodor is one-note. You also need to have Bran be tempted to use his skinchanging powers for questionable or outright bad purposes (i.e. treating Hodor's body as a plaything).

In any case, Bran learns more about the CoTF and the ancient history of Westeros in a creepy-storybook fashion in season 5 as he travels through the tunnels and begins intensive training in season 6 with Bloodraven. It's not like Bran was in that many episodes to begin with. All of Bran's season 5-6 material could be done in the span of 8 episodes. Maybe 3 in season 5 and 4 in season 6?

SANSA

Sansa, oh Sansa. She's probably the one who suffered the most from season 5. Unlike Bran, she's more simple. Sansa is one of the most normal characters in the entire series and she is in such an isolated place. You can literally create any kind of original material for her so she can actually learn how to play the game, work a room and bend people to her will. It can be cheesy CW or Lifetime movie type material here and it'd actually would work 10x better than the disaster we got in season 5.

As a matter of fact, there is a minor plotline from the books in Sansa's story from Storm. One of Lysa's favorite servants, a singer named Marillion, was raping, groping and harassing the female servants at the Eyrie. He came very close to raping Sansa as well. However, one of the women was very willing which, in a way, throws dirt on the accusations against him. You can literally have Sansa deal with this.

Also another point is that at the end of season 4, Sansa, Robin and Littlefinger were leaving the Eyrie to go tour the Vale. Sansa's first episode (or maybe two) in season 5 could have literally adapted the third Sansa chapter in Feast where she has to leave the Eyrie and walk all the way down the mountain. It's a scary trip and if it weren't for Sansa, Robin wouldn't have made it. A great way to build a bond between the two which will become important.

A lot of Sansa's story in Feast never made it to the screen. So, in season 5, you can have her leave the Eyrie, tour the Vale with the Arryn household, find out the identity of the serial rapist, confront the rapist (maybe even get raped or assaulted) and then concoct a clever way of getting said rapist either out of the picture or into something much worse.

Plus, GRRM says that Sansa is a skinchanger whose powers are still dormant/nascent thanks to Lady's demise. He also strongly hinted that her powers won't be dormant for much longer.

Season 6 can plant the seeds for Sansa's debutante as a skinchanger while also involving her in Littlefinger's schemes. He wants her to marry a distant Arryn cousin because he is much more politically and militarily powerful than Robin Arryn. Sansa can struggle with this dilemma and flirt with the dark side a little bit. A major point in Feast is that, after spending so much time toeing the line and walking on eggshells in the Red Keep, Sansa finally is able to breathe and let her hair down for a bit. She gets to be a girl. Let her have a little fun in season 6, charming and experimenting with boys, organizing tourneys, being Littlefinger's accomplice/apprentice. Season 6 can end with her finding out about what's happening in the North and Littlefinger's role in it. She'll get pissed and start carefully plotting to take down Littlefinger after milking him dry. A slow death. Poison. If the creators wanted her to channel the energy of Cersei so much, she can begin that here.

A major complaint in later seasons is that Sansa can suddenly run not only a household but an entire kingdom with alarming skill. Since when did she have a brain for logistics? Season 5 and 6 is the time.

ARYA

Out of her siblings, Arya has the most material to work with in Feast and Dance so this shouldn't be too hard. Especially since a lot of the stuff already was properly adapted (lol yeah I know) and a lot of stuff was also left out.

Arya in season 5 of the actual show was fine. It ended great with her getting blind. I would only add in parts where Arya learns about the magic used for faces so it wouldn't seem so rando when she disguises herself to kill Meryn Trant. Or maybe she can go without the face and just pretend to be someone else long enough for Trant to let his guard down.

Season 6 Arya is a weird cocktail of a super-rushed adaptation of her Dance material and the misunderstanding of what's she is going to do in Winds. Have blind Arya wander around Braavos and get to know the city intimately so that when she's on the run from the Waif-Terminator 2.5, it'll make sense because she'll know her way around the city with her eyes closed. Have Arya spend some time with the actual water-dancers of the city. We never saw her sword-training after season 4 and, in season 4, she was not that good with it. Spending time with bravos swordfighters while blind also makes her final battle with the Terminator make even more sense but more on that later.

Arya has always been a skinchanger in the books. She actually is only second to Bran in terms of raw power as she dreams her way into Nymeria's body repeatedly from hundreds and eventually thousands of miles away. Being blind opens the door to Arya consciously using her skinchanging powers. She begins bonding with cats who help her survive, calls herself Cat and begins to act and think more like her mother. Get it: Catelyn is the firstborn of the Lord of the Riverlands and here is Arya calling herself Cat running around in a city of canals, rivers and inlets. It's cute. Also big set-up for later for when she meets her mother again.

About maybe halfway through season 6, Arya is accepted into the House of Black and White again. Here, she actually learns how to use poisons, how to fight and the magic they use to change their appearance. She learns the Braavosi dialect of High Valyrian. She actually completes her assassination or spying assignments and becomes a full-fledged Faceless Men. All of that other stuff fits better in the next season.

Ok. Next up: Jon, Dany and Tyrion.

JON

This is tough because I think they did a good enough job with Jon in season 5. However, many people had problems with Jon at this point and I agree in retrospect. While they did good adapting Ned and Robb in the show, Jon is not like Ned or Robb. Jon is a quiet, unassuming person in both book and TV show but Jon is politically savvy and quite intelligent in the books. If Tyrion respects you, then you're doing something right with your brain.

I would stretch out Jon's storyline by first taking my time with the wildlings/NW tensions. That's half a season (if not a whole season) of good political drama right there...especially if you leave it unresolved in my case. I would end Jon's season 5 story with the trip to Hardhome and with the revelation that Melisandre didn't burn Mance. I would also have Jon as Lord Commander take a trip or two into the lands belonging to the Night's Watch or one of the other castles and treat with the people there. Jon is supposed to be this king figure, this secret Targaryen and the true heir to the Iron Throne. Let him be kingly for a bit at the Wall with Northmen, wildlings and some Night's Watch people liking him.

Season 6? This is where Jon spirals out of control and starts having serious issues post-Hardhome. There's the fact that he's allowing wildlings and women to join the Night's Watch, there's Queen Selyse being annoying, there's the forced Karstark niece-uncle marriage thing (important for the viewers!), there's the negotiations with the Iron Bank, the threat of the Boltons. He dies at the end of season 6 but we basically spend season 6 watching Jon make big mistakes and deal with one difficult situation after another -- before being killed for attempting to defend the Watch. Ironic.

DAENERYS

This looks tough on paper but they cut so much interesting stuff out of Daenerys' story (I'm not mad about this) from A Dance with Dragons that splitting this up can work real easy.

Season 5 is basically a retelling of the Iraq War. Dany as a stand-in for the US and Meereen as a stand-in for Iraq. Dany has to navigate a religion she doesn't like or believe in and struggles with insurgency. A lot of other Meereenese characters that didn't make it in the show make it here: Quaithe, Galazza Galare, Strong Belwas, Cleos. Season 5 ends with Qarth declaring war on Dany, marking Dany's absolute failure to gain or keep allies. Barristan (who doesn't die) begs her to reconsider but Dany proposes a marriage with Hizdahr. Season 6 is the prep for the big wedding between Dany and Hizdahr and when people from Westeros start showing up. Quentyn arrives first and we get a nice relationship form between them (maybe Quentyn gets laid). Quentyn and Daario have this also really funny relationship. Usually you see women being catty and fighting each other over men but it's reversed here. Maybe Dany is screwing them both no strings attached and they are all in their feelings. But yeah, eventually, they can agree on trying to get Daenerys to break her betrothal but Dany knows how bad of idea it is.

But the problems keep coming. Compromise is not solving any of her problems; it's solving the slaver problems. Dany snaps out of it when she realizes she has only effectively banned slavery from Meereen and hasn't even done a good job doing that. Dany has a "chuck it in the fuck it bucket" moment when Drogon shows up and hilariously protests the wedding by raising two different kinds of hell. She leaves Hizdahr at the altar. However, there was a assassination plot against her happening right under her nose (the audience knows it but Dany didn't) So the audience thought they were going to get another Red Wedding but Dany is like "They got the wrong one" and escapes. She disappears for a couple episodes. Maybe she gets to meet Tyrion at her wedding or right before. Idk...

While Dany is gone, Grey Worm, Missandei and Barristan try to hold things together. Quentyn either makes a fatal mistake or he does something completely wrong and stupid. In any case, the dragons are free and Quentyn is on his deathbed. Then Tyrion shows up with yet another proposal (more on that later)

After a couple of episodes, Dany shows up in the finale to have her super-cool moment where she's like Jesus tempted in the wilderness for forty days and nights. It's just her and Drogon with Dany having these weird visions, being sick and finally learning her way around dragons. Then she meets the Dothraki.

That way, the season 7 Meereen plot is automatically more interesting because there are dragons flying around terrorizing the city and there is still the mystery of who tried to killed Daenerys and where the hell did she go.

TYRION

Tyrion's story in Dance is lengthy and complicated. I'm going to do what GRRM should've done and make this short enough to fit in two seasons without going overboard.

Season 5 starts off with Tyrion at Illyrio's manse echoing Dany and Viserys in season 1. Spends the first episode going back and forth with Illyrio and Varys. Tyrion's alcoholism becomes much more of a thing; it's played for laughs or ignored in the actual show, but I would start making this a real thing here.

Tyrion then meets up with Connington, Aegon, Septa Lemore and crew and rides with them down to Volantis. On the way, Tyrion has a "where do whores go" moment and then they are attacked by greyscale victims. Connington saves Tyrion but gets greyscale in the process. In Volantis, Tyrion meets the chief red priest Benerro and his BFF Moqorro, sees how effed up the whole city of Volanits is, meets Penny, gets kidnapped by Jorah (Penny pursues), travel through Valyria by ship, barely manage to escape some unseen Lovecraftian horror in the depths (fun moment!!!) and are then captured by slaver traders. In that order.

Tyrion ends season 5 as a slave.

Season 6 will see Tyrion being sold to that one guy Yezzan zo Qaggaz and becomes a part of his grotesquerie. This is when Tyrion becomes bitter, depressed and sadistic: more like his book self and less like his TV self. Slavery does not become Tyrion at all and he sinks to whole new lows. Including but not limited to sexual violence. Travelling to Meereen and seeing Daenerys in action puts wind under Tyrion's wings again and he starts plotting with Jorah. He manages an audience with Daenerys but she isn't in the position to entertain him (this is where her decision to take it easy on slavery in Meereen comes back to bite her).

He gets even more bitter. He attends her wedding and is the only character that is visibly aware that something bad is going to happen. And it's not because of trauma. He just intuitively knows that someone is going to die. Drogon appears and Tyrion is amazed. Tyrion then manipulates Quentyn into setting the dragons free in hopes of getting one. It backfires but Tyrion isn't that upset about it.

He kills his master, plots with Jorah and buys his ex-master's slaves. But Tyrion isn't doing it out of the kindness of his heart. And then Tyrion approaches Barristan, Grey Worm and Missandei with a proposal that they can't afford to refuse with the entire slavery-loving world bearing down on Meereen.

Either Barristan will die at the wedding protecting Daenerys or he will die shortly after her return in season 7.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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I'll do Cersei, Jaime and everyone else tied to their stories in FeastDance (the Martells, the Tyrells and the Tullys) in this post.

CERSEI and the TYRELLS

Ok, this is going to be a little sparse on the season 6 side because Cersei's story in Dance was super light and I think they did a decent job adapting all of her stuff in season 5 and 6.

In order to get her material spread across, you need to take Cersei slow. I would have season 5 end with her plots backfiring and her being arrested and incarcerated. I would leave the actual time she spent behind bars being interrogated, the ascension of UnGregor, the Walk of Shame and Kevan's assassination for season 6.

In order to do that, Cersei's story can't introduce the High Septon in the third episode. She needs to spend time ruining the kingdom on her own. You can spend an episode dealing with Cersei refusing to pay the Iron Bank. And then trading correspondence with Jon while she plots to have him killed. Oh and by the way, I would totally get rid of that whole "Casterly Rock has no more gold and we're broke" thing from season 4 if I could.

I would make season 5 more of a Real Housewives of King's Landing than it already was. Margaery is there yes but why can't her mother Alerie or one of Margaery's cousins be there to stir up drama. Then there's Cersei's sorta-friend/spy Taena Merryweather and the Stokeworth women. I would add in an actual Lannister bannerwoman for Cersei's sake...maybe Joy Hill, the Lannister bastard we never saw in the books. Maybe throw in an ugly Frey woman to make it more hilarious.

Game of Thrones either swung from too serious and graphic to childishly corny with the cock jokes. How about some real humor and drama? Why can't Cersei's story in season 5 channel Downton Abbey.

Also, it'd be nice to start making Qyburn out to be a mad scientist here.

Margaery? I don't want to do it but she'd have to be absent for most of season 6. Watching one queen struggle in jail is enough, why two? Unless, I can switch it up and have Cersei be the one struggling and Margaery the one biding her time, sitting pretty and ironing out a deal with the High Septon.

JAIME and the MARTELLS (season 5)

So this one is tough. I like the idea of sending Jaime to Dorne after Myrcella in season 5. A pretty good argument can be made about how the viewers need a familiar face in Dorne to make it all make sense. The execution of it and what actually happened in Dorne was the God-awful part. But then again, I feel like this time is better at Riverrun with the Freys and the Tullys.

It's easy to split it up but...which one do you do first. There's not enough Jaime material in Feast to spend two seasons on. So, it's like do you have Jaime serve as an Arys Oakheart stand-in or not?

**several hours later**

Okay, my mind is made up. Because Cersei is a terrible ruler and hella paranoid after Tyrion's escape and Joffrey's death, she wants Myrcella back in King's Landing now by any means necessary. Naturally, Jaime understands that this is a bad idea but Jaime is sentimental so he goes along with it anyway. He sends Arys Oakheart a message that he never gets a reply to. So he takes Bronn to Dorne.

Much of it happens the same except:

  1. the writing will be better
  2. Arianne and Quentyn will be there

The Dornish story in season 5 just because this big tug-of-war over Myrcella. Quentyn aligns himself with the Sand Snakes except Quentyn thinks that they are just going to make Myrcella a hostage and start a war; the Sand Snakes however are secretly plotting to kill Myrcella. Ellaria, still grieving, is more like how she was in the books: a proponent of peace and change (think Martin Luther King, Jr. in a wartorn country). Ellaria co-signs from afar but she doesn't want war or for Myrcella to be hurt. She only wants to twist Cersei's arm into giving the Dornish justice. I'll have Ellaria be the one to send the viper or whatever to King's Landing but Cersei will completely misinterpret the message.

Arianne will be doing something along the lines of what she did in Feast. Fearing her father will give her birthright to Quentyn and plotting to trigger a matriarchy (or at least a more egalitarian Westeros) by making Myrcella the Queen of Westeros. She'll be with Arys, the Darkstar and her friends.

Trystane is just in love with Myrcella and she loves him. They just want to be left alone and happy.

These four groups clash. Arys dies, Myrcella gets this ugly scar on her face and every one of the conspirators is jailed. Doran hosts a parley, there's an official wedding between Trystane and Myrcella in Sunspear (the only way that Myrcella can return to King's Landing without breaking the Lannister-Martell peace accords), Jaime and Myrcella have a heart-to-heart like in the show and the season ends.

But not before Prince Doran pays Arianne a visit and cryptically hinting that he is only getting started. At that point, it will be revealed that he is the reason why Oakheart never got the letter. Bronn stays in Dorne.

THE MARTELLS and AEGON (season 6)

Simple. Prince Doran's true colors are revealed. Ellaria is not happy but she has to deal. Quentyn leaves for Meereen and does his thing. Arianne begins mobilizing the Dornish forces on the low and rubs shoulders with the red priest Moqorro. Trystane is given a seat on the Small Council per Jaime's deal and works as a informant in the capital for his father. Obara, Bronn and Areo Hotah head east to deal with Darkstar. Tyene goes to the capital to intrigue with the High Septon (she'll intersect with Margaery) and Nymeria goes to Braavos to make a deal with the Iron Bank.

Quentyn runs across Aegon and Connington in Volantis but doesn't believe that they are who they say they are at all. Maybe he likens them to a prostitute pretending to be Daenerys in Lys or Volantis and keeps it moving. Maybe he makes mention of it to Daenerys but they never connect the dots until Tyrion gets involved with Daenerys. In any case, Aegon and Connington are unhappy that Quentyn Martell shrugged them off but take it in stride.

They land in the Stormlands and take Griffin's Roost. Arianne and Doran receive news and beyond confused. Season 6 ends.

JAIME and the TULLYS (season 6)

Jaime comes back to King's Landing and visits Cersei in jail. He then is forced by his uncle to leave for the Riverlands to help the Freys deal with the rebel holdouts in the Riverlands. Pretty much after that his entire Feast storyline plays out. He meets his aunt Gemma Lannister, he talks with the Blackfish and Edmure. With Jaime here, we get a close look at the reasons why the Faith Militant took over so fast and how deep the organization has become. Season six ends with Brienne appearing out of thin air and asking Jaime to come with her.

THE GREYJOYS

This is a cake walk.

Squeeze the Kingsmoot (it didn't take that much time at all in the original show) into season 5, ending with Euron becoming king, Aeron disappearing after trying to stir up a rebellion and Yara fleeing for the North. The Ironborn attack and conquer the Shields and then the Arbor in season 6, ending with Euron announcing his plans for Daenerys and Victarion secretly coming up with his own plans.

 

--------------

I have to go to work tonight so I'm going to leave the really difficult stuff: Stannis, Theon, Davos, Mel and the Boltons for the next post. I'll do a quick run-through of everything in the post after that.

@FictionIsntReal

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Good stuff if I might add a suggestion for the upcoming Stannis/Davos/Bolton. We go back to S4 and cut the iron bank subplot. So with the scene with Davos and Shireen that had him reading some fairytale about Braavos that got Davos thinking of the IB is instead a “history of the great houses of Westeros” book. They are on the Manderly chapter which promotes Davos to think of recruiting pissed of Northerns for Stannis’ army. So Davos goes to White Harbor but Wyman has him taken away to be killed. Start of S5 and after Tywin’s funeral Cersei is informed Davos head has been mounted on the Sealgate and Wyman demands Wylis be freed as a reward which Cersei grants. Cut to E2 or 3 and Davos is greeted by Robett who leads him to a secret room with Wyman and we get the “North Remembers” speech. But in a twist from the book because Rickon is with the Umbers (and I have an idea for that) it’s actually Arya that Wyman sends Davos after because he found out (maybe the sailor who took Arya made his way to WH?) that Arya is in Braavos and thanks to Davos history in the region Wyman figures he’s the man to send for the job with the promise of swearing loyalty to Stannis if “Ned’s little girl” is brought home safe.

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Back in season 5, I was thinking of how Sansa in Winterfell could work. Let me see if I can find it:

Oh, here it is, but it's rather brief: "Firstly, the rationale for going to Winterfell was flawed: Littlefinger tells Sansa to avenge her family, but gives no indication as to how she is to do that; and she apparently doesn't question it.  In theory, despite this hole, bringing Sansa to Winterfell could have been brilliant.  Sansa could have taken on some of the role of the wildling women in planning her own escape, or she could have interacted with Northern malcontents--if there were any.  Sadly, it seems as though the North were almost completely inert.  I don't know how much this matters to Unsullied; but to anyone who has read the books and found the corresponding parts of the books to be a among the best things GRRM wrote, it is disappointing.  Basically, the problem is this: Sansa takes on the role of Jeyne Poole; but JP is a tertiary character, whose function is to trigger Theon's redemption, so that the show has squeezed a primary character into the role of a tertiary character."

As you can see, this doesn't discuss 1. the rationale behind LF handing Sansa over to the Boltons in the first place; 2. How to keep Sansa from getting assaulted by the Ram-dude. I suppose if they didn't get married right away ... but wouldn't the Boltons be in a hurry to get the wedding over with? And another comment I made at the time was that Sansa was leaving the Vale "rather precipitously". They should have been there at least a season.

It seems the Stannis segment could be fairly close to the books; all the changes were for the worse in the show. It would also give Asha/"Yara" more to do.

I know they can't have every book character on the show; but I missed Lady Dustinn in the show.

[Take 3. Verizon is rubbish.]

Just some very vague thoughts.

 

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4 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

Back in season 5, I was thinking of how Sansa in Winterfell could work. Let me see if I can find it:

Oh, here it is, but it's rather brief: "Firstly, the rationale for going to Winterfell was flawed: Littlefinger tells Sansa to avenge her family, but gives no indication as to how she is to do that; and she apparently doesn't question it.  In theory, despite this hole, bringing Sansa to Winterfell could have been brilliant.  Sansa could have taken on some of the role of the wildling women in planning her own escape, or she could have interacted with Northern malcontents--if there were any.  Sadly, it seems as though the North were almost completely inert.  I don't know how much this matters to Unsullied; but to anyone who has read the books and found the corresponding parts of the books to be a among the best things GRRM wrote, it is disappointing.  Basically, the problem is this: Sansa takes on the role of Jeyne Poole; but JP is a tertiary character, whose function is to trigger Theon's redemption, so that the show has squeezed a primary character into the role of a tertiary character."

As you can see, this doesn't discuss 1. the rationale behind LF handing Sansa over to the Boltons in the first place; 2. How to keep Sansa from getting assaulted by the Ram-dude. I suppose if they didn't get married right away ... but wouldn't the Boltons be in a hurry to get the wedding over with? And another comment I made at the time was that Sansa was leaving the Vale "rather precipitously". They should have been there at least a season.

It seems the Stannis segment could be fairly close to the books; all the changes were for the worse in the show. It would also give Asha/"Yara" more to do.

I know they can't have every book character on the show; but I missed Lady Dustinn in the show.

[Take 3. Verizon is rubbish.]

Just some very vague thoughts.

 

The problem I keep running into with Sansa in WF is that the only way from character development standpoint it would work would be if Sansa legit used LF techniques to make Ramsay hers but a) that would mean Theon has no one to save so he has no redemption arch and b) that would mean Sansa and Ramsay would have to have consensual sex with Sansa being more nuts in bed then Myranda. Which quite frankly is gross

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On 6/24/2019 at 8:25 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

*Insert feasible, faithful plots that while imperfect are still leagues above two alleged professionals*

Unfortunately for you, I have D&D on the line right now, and they have their rebuttals ready.

Bran: Uhhh, look, we knew Bran was going to be king and as a result, needed to make sure it was a surprise. Cutting him out for a season wasn't just a lack of book material and us not knowing what to do with magical shit in a fantasy, it was a calculated move to make you kInDa FoRgEt about Bran, that way your expectations are nice and subverted when the supposedly minor character becomes king.

Sansa: You really expect us to act like feminine skills are anything other than points to be mocked by our memetic shitstain, Lyanna Mormont? Girly things are for dumb idiots, the only way women can be strong if if they take part in a rape-revenge plot or are men with tits.

Arya: Uhhhh, this seems too slow. We really just want to get to the part where Arya goes around killing people we've conditioned the audience to despise unconditionally, plus this and Lady Stoneheart just seems like unnecessary magic lore, and we don't like magic lore.

Jon: Our vision of Jon is an unproblematic idiot hero, just like our vision of Ned Stark. We can't waste time with politics because we can't write politics for shit because that's just not what our idiot hero Jon is. Plus, we need some hot bastard on bastard action now that Ramsay is the Joker.

Daenerys: Sorry, sorry, we just can't take this seriously if you're going to imply men can be catty. They're all badass action heroes or death fodder, don't you know anything about men?

Tyrion: We like your ideas, but given Tyrion sells shirts and mugs with his sayings on, we can't afford to make him a darker character-- uh, shit, what I meant to say was, it just doesn't seem right to make Tyrion a bad guy.

Cersei: You're doing it again, you're, uh, trying to give a fuck about feminine skills and politics without resorting to explosions or mass kill-offs to reduce the characters we're keeping track of. Are you trying to make the viewers think?

The Martells: We can't accept wasting Indira Varma by making her not angry, also, Doran is a cripple and doesn't have magic or kill people, so he isn't a real man and deserves to die. Focusing on manipulation is just hard work for the sake of hard work. Also, Tyene can't infiltrate the High Sparrow's group because we really like the 'bad pussy' line we have planned.

Aegon: Wait, the Stormlands exist? Nah, fuck you, you don't know what you're talking about.

The Greyjoys: No, no, no, we can't have Euron and religious opposition to evil that makes sense. The Faith Militant is a one-dimensional taliban, the Drowned Men won't make an appearance, and Euron as a sorceror is just fucking stupid. We want to make him a punk rocker Jack Sparrow ripoff who makes cock jokes, can't you understand our priorities?

As you can see, they've shown you fair and square why they're the professionals raking in megabux and you're not. What fantastic reasoning from the (hypothetical) Ds.

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Posted (edited)

 Oh wait I think I got an idea for the WF S5 plot: first let’s just erase Sansa from this altogether have have her in the Vale. So after Jon turns down Stannis offer and Davos gives him that speech Jon decides to take a third way and give Stannis the advice of sending Mance’s bones to the Umbers as an act of goodwill. Smalljon then shows at Castle Black and hands Rickon over to Stannis as a thank you (Rickon and Jon get a heart warming reunion). Roose upon hearing this is freaked out at a Northern revolt but Ramsay is all like “Karstark is with us so all we need is the Manderlys and the three of us can match any army Stannis brings”. Roose agrees and to bring Wyman to his side has Cersei release Wylis and has Ramsay arranged to marry “Arya” who is actually Myranda with dyed black hair. At first Myranda is  mocking Theon and being “I’m going to be the lady of Winterfell” but then after infamous wedding night Theon comes to the realization that like him she is actually a victim who is putting on an act to survive Ramsay. Meanwhile, Stannis along with Rickon are stuck in snow and are all like “We need to get the Boltons out of WF and the only way to do that is getting ‘Arya’ out of there” to which Osha (who is with because of Rickon) volunteers to save “Arya” due to the fact that as a wildling she can through the snow better then anyone also she knows how to get in and out of WF to which Stannis agrees. Back in Winterfell, Roose and Walda have informed everyone they are expecting a child and that it is likely to be a son. Seeing how it upsets Ramsay Wyman starts hinting toward Ramsay that the child will be a threat but that he and other Northern lords would support Ramsay over someone with Frey blood. Theon has that moment at the Tree when he is confronted by Wyman for his treason to which Theon shots back about Wyman being here to support Roose which sets off a version of the “Mummers farce” speech. Osha takes on a hooded man/spear wife role and sneaks into WF, kills a Karstark which sets off a riot, and tries to save Myranda but is captured at which point Theon mans up and saves her as they leap over the wall together and run through the forests until they are captured by Stannis’ scouts. Back in WF, Roose is irate about Myranda escaping until he is informed Walda has given birth. The scene plays out like it did in S6 with Ramsay stabbing, “he was poisoned by our enemies”, with the major change of Wyman not Karstark being in the room and backing up Ramsay. Ramsay then orders Wyman to lead a vanguard with Karstark and get “Arya” back. Then like S6 he feeds Walda and the newborn to his dogs. Back at CB, Jon story plays out exactly as it did in S5 until he returns from Hardhome where he is informed about everything that happened and is given the Pink Letter from Ramsay and like the books informs the Nights Watch he’ll march on WF which sets up the last scene of “For the Watch”. Thoughts?

(The battle of Ice between Stannis and the Karstark/Manderlys couldn’t realistically happen in S5 due to budget so like the books S5 ends with the PL cliffhanger until the battle is told in S6 E1 via flashback)

 

Edited by Stannis is the man....nis

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

 Oh wait I think I got an idea for the WF S5 plot: first let’s just erase Sansa from this altogether have have her in the Vale.

 

Thoughts?

(The battle of Ice between Stannis and the Karstark/Manderlys couldn’t realistically happen in S5 due to budget so like the books S5 ends with the PL cliffhanger until the battle is told in S6 E1 via flashback)

 

I like! I do miss Lady Dustinn; but 1. they can't have everyone; and 2. we, or at least I, don't really know what she's up to.

I'm not big on "battle" episodes; but it might be necessary or advisable to include the battle to make the people who like battles happy. Maybe one could then even keep Sansa arriving at the last minute w/ Vale forces? But I'm forgetting that Jon isn't there, so wouldn't perhaps have the impact? ... well, there could still be a heart-warming reunion w/ Rickon.

How to get Jon down to Winterfell is another question. I guess that would be for season 6, or even season 7. Mainly, Jon needs not to be an idiot.

Edited by Count Balerion

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5 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Unfortunately for you, I have D&D on the line right now, and they have their rebuttals ready.

 

As you can see, they've shown you fair and square why they're the professionals raking in megabux and you're not. What fantastic reasoning from the (hypothetical) Ds.

I agree with all this; but think you shouldn't have any dialogue on the show at all. Just have the actors make weird faces for an hour or so.

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43 minutes ago, Count Balerion said:

Lady Dustinn

Dear awesome Barbrey, telling it like it is.

This is a excerpt from @sweetsunray's fantastic essay on a possible nature of the Others.

Lady Dustin gives an explanation for Roose’s ageless appearance to Theon and the reader: he has no feelings.

“Roose has no feelings, you see. […] He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve.” (aDwD, The Prince of Winterfell

From which this here idiot decided she was calling the Leech Lord out on his bad botox job.

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Speaking of Rose, it seemed to me that D&D got rid of him rather fast. Did Mike MacElhatton annoy them? He was quite good, as i recall. Maybe his faces were off.

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I was actually surprised they didn’t have Ramsay shank him as soon as he got Sansa. The 'I got a legit son now' was so transparent.

As seen elsewhere: Ramsay's the man. No one takes a sh*t in the North without Ramsay's say so.

Well, until genuine badass Sansa smiled as dogs ate his face.

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2 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

I like! I do miss Lady Dustinn; but 1. they can't have everyone; and 2. we, or at least I, don't really know what she's up to.

I'm not big on "battle" episodes; but it might be necessary or advisable to include the battle to make the people who like battles happy. Maybe one could then even keep Sansa arriving at the last minute w/ Vale forces? But I'm forgetting that Jon isn't there, so wouldn't perhaps have the impact? ... well, there could still be a heart-warming reunion w/ Rickon.

How to get Jon down to Winterfell is another question. I guess that would be for season 6, or even season 7. Mainly, Jon needs not to be an idiot.

Yeah I didn’t include Lady Dustin because I’m trying to be realistic with the budget retrains the show has. Also for the same reason and I probably didn’t make this clear but the Battle of Ice wasn’t included because the Hardhome battle was to serve as the battle for the season.

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Maybe the Ice Battle can be done in season 6? I guess the problem w/ that is that the first episode shouldn't be a Battle, so it would have to be put off. Then, in the actual show they didn't get rid of Rammy until season 6.

(Still just throwing out random thoughts.)

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Posted (edited)

My solution for Sansa in season five was to start with continuing the thread Roose Bolton started in season four:  "Tywin Lannister has helped me win the north but he won't lift a finger to help me keep it."  The Bolton family now resides in Winterfell and the northerners aren't playing ball while they know there are at least two surviving Starks.  Roose Bolton discusses this with Ramsay, and Ramsay comes up with the idea to cut Myranda's hair and pass her off as Arya Stark.  Roose Bolton thinks it's the dumbest idea he's ever heard until Theon comes before him and swears to vouch for her.  The plan seemingly works since most of the northern lords don't remember Arya very well.  Ramsay marries F/Arya around the end of episode two.  Sansa finds out about this through Littlefinger and demands to go to Winterfell.  Littlefinger protests because the Boltons might be smart enough to check and see how he has a niece since he has no known siblings, but ultimately goes along with it.

Sansa and F/Arya meet.  Sansa plays along when she meets her to Littlefinger's surprise, but Roose Bolton isn't buying Sansa's act.  Sansa also catches Ramsay's eye.  Around episode six, Littlefinger is called away from Winterfell to ride to King's Landing, Sansa volunteers to stay in Winterfell against Littlefinger's wishes.  Littlefinger gives Sansa a direwolf seal that he claims belonged to Ned.  In this same episode, Smalljon Umber shows up at the wall by invitation of Ser Alliser.  He demands that Jon stop aiding the wildlings or else he won't keep harboring Rickon.  Jon is conflicted but refuses to cave to Smalljon's threat.  Jon publicly threatens Ser Alliser to suffer the same fate as Janos Slynt if he continues to try and undermine his lordship.  Jon sets out for Hardhome shortly after.  In episode seven, Ramsay tries to rape Sansa, but she uses the threat of Littlefinger's influence and the knowledge of the affair getting out to all of the northern's lords against him.  In episode eight Sansa uses Littlefinger's seal to send ravens to all the northern houses and Riverrun, telling them Arya Stark is a fake. 

In episode nine, before Stannis's arrival Roose comes to Sansa and informs her that Littlefinger has returned.  She goes down to the courtyard in Winterfell where Smalljon is waiting with Rickon, and some hounds are eating the dead ravens.  Rickon yells "Sansa!" and Myranda reveals herself behind Sansa, knife in hand, bow on her back.  Ramsay hasn't yet returned from sabotaging Stannis.  Roose orders Myranda to dispose of Sansa.  Roose takes Rickon away.  Followed by Theon, Myranda's plan is to throw Sansa into the courtyard.  Theon intervenes like what happened in the actual show, and he helps Sansa escape.  

I'd probably still have Sansa link up with Brienne and head to the wall, that would probably be the season five finale scene. In season six she'd try to convince Jon to take back Winterfell, but he'd refuse.  She'd lie to him and tell him Arya was dead at the hands of the Boltons to get him to act.  Once Winterfell was taken in season six or early season seven, Littlefinger would ask Sansa if she wanted to clear up Arya's fate to Jon, she'd ultimately stay committed to the lie that Arya was dead.  She'd contemplate telling Jon, but before she could Jon would admit Rickon's death (I'd probably still have him die at the hands of the Boltons) was his fault since he helped the wildlings, this would start her on her path against Jon.  When Arya showed back up in season seven, Sansa would use this against Littlefinger and convince everyone he coerced her into lying about Arya's fate because he wanted to marry Sansa and have no contenders for the line of succession in Winterfell.   

Edited by YoungGriff89
Clearing up Jon's role.

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3 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

I agree with all this; but think you shouldn't have any dialogue on the show at all. Just have the actors make weird faces for an hour or so.

Sad, but true.

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"Dialogue? Who needs it?"

Sansa: Interesting. I think that for taking out LF, it's better if Sansa uses something true against him. Preston Jacobs had an idea for that in his video fixing season 7. Would Ramsay be deterred by anything other than brute force? I suppose in the show he is presented as a bit more intelligent than in the books.

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Kudos for mapping all this out, @Jabar of House Titan. My guess is that after their experience with Ser Pounce, D&D don't want to rely on any cats onscreen. I expect they'd also regard many of your season 5 breakpoints as lacking oomph. My recollection is that they had Marillion be the singer Joffrey had mutilated in season 1, but another singer could take his place at the Eyrie.

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Tom ... oh, I forget the name, chap in the BWB? He'd have to get to the Eyrie somehow. I forget if he exists in the show or not.

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