THE WHEEL OF TIME TV Show: The braid tugs, as the writing wills [BOOK SPOILERS]

[SansaJonRule]

13 hours ago, Corvinus said:

If they follow the books, Moiraine would probably stay dead for a full season, and return the next, as I see a lot of condensing happening with the latter books. That being said, my main problem is with Moiraine coming back. I have to re-read A Memory of Light, as that's the only book I only read once, but I don't recall her doing much after she came back. She helped Rand at the end, but her return felt a bit anti-climactic at the time.

Even with condensing the story arcs, Moiraine's character arc would have to be expanded to only be dead for one season. And that means coming up with a new story arc for her that's not in the book. Not that I'm against that; I want more Moiraine! Maybe they don't kill off Moiraine and Lanfear at all. But I'm having trouble thinking of other Aes Sedai's activities that could be given to Moiraine instead, that would fit her personality.

The first time I read ToM and MoL, her return did seem a bit anti-climatic, but the second time I really felt Rand's joy and relief. Her death weighed heavier on him than anyone else's. Plus, I like that she after devoting 20+ years to searching for and guiding the DR, she gets to find some happiness with Thom like a normal woman.

14 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

I don't get why anyone thinks minimizing the number of Forsaken would be necessary or desirable.  There are plenty of options to have only a few at a time in any most seasons (except the last, where not even all 13 would be still alive / non-balefired) if they want to minimize the bill for casting.  But for keeping the budget under control they should look elsewhere than cutting casting for the major antagonists.  Like start with the most lacking in energy / interest plotlines like the whole Circus, and the Shaido should be done after Mat kills Couladin.

I enjoyed the circus myself. But yeah, I could do without the Shaido, except for the fact they give Galina her due. They would have to come up with a different adventure for Faile and Perrin then. Someone suggested a while back that Faile be captured by Masema instead. Although I really loved his idea of adding forkroot to the the water supply so none of the Shaido Wise Ones could channel.

14 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think the big thing I'd like to see with the Forsaken is no resurrections. Maybe an exception for Lanfear given she dies in an unusual way and there's actual things for her to do but the rest take up more space than they add. It really feels like the main point of it is to give Rand a reason to need to use balefire and surely that can be done another way.

It's especially the two in TEotW that I want to stay dead, it just undoes too much of that climax.

I wonder if you could rearrange a lot of that anyway, the death of the Green Man would have a lot more impact after we know the Aiel, where they came from, who he is and what is actually being lost there.

Yes! No resurrections of the Forsaken except where absolutely necessary! After a while, a when a Forsaken got killed, I thought "big deal, they'll just get resurrected.

Good point about the Green Man.

13 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I do hope we see some of the severe punishments some of the Forsaken receive, like that thing that allows Moridin to control Moghedien and new Lanfear. 

Was that the stasis box?

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Was that the stasis box?

No, the mindtrap https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Mindtrap

[karaddin]

16 hours ago, Corvinus said:

But Ishamel's resurrection is a must, given he is ultimately the Shadow's champion, and what happens at the end with him and Rand. I agree about Aginor and Balthamel. I do hope we see some of the severe punishments some of the Forsaken receive, like that thing that allows Moridin to control Moghedien and new Lanfear.

I'm going to be honest here and just admit I totally blanked on Ish even dying in the first place haha. Ok yeah him and potentially Lanfear I think you can do it so it doesnt just destroy the tension around fighting Forsaken. Ishamael you could frame it as something to do with him specifically - that the walls between reincarnations are breaking down/his ego is starting to fray kind of thing. He and Rand have been through too many cycles and that's having unexpected consequences.

Lanfear I think the big thing is that she's not killed by the heroes, so its not someone that they've defeated just immediately bouncing back. She could have her spirit ripped from her body and placed in another for her punishment rather than it being a conventional death?

[Loge]

7 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes! No resurrections of the Forsaken except where absolutely necessary! After a while, a when a Forsaken got killed, I thought "big deal, they'll just get resurrected.

Why do you think resurrecting the Forsaken is a bad thing? Underlines the futility of Rand's strategy to hunt them down one by one. You don't wear down the Shadow by killing its minions. You have to tackle the Dark One himself at Shayol Ghul.

[fionwe1987]

Thinking about it, one way to expand the roles of the Forsaken is to have them take on roles of lesser villains. So have Mesaana take Galina's place. Have Be'lal take Turak's, etc. And this way, you can give the big 6 Forsaken more to do as well.

[SpaceChampion]

3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Thinking about it, one way to expand the roles of the Forsaken is to have them take on roles of lesser villains. So have Mesaana take Galina's place. Have Be'lal take Turak's, etc. And this way, you can give the big 6 Forsaken more to do as well.

Yes, but not necessarily know these are Forsaken, just know them by their faces.  Let the audience see below the Mask of Mirrors or whatever it is called.  But not have it explained until a later season.

[SpaceChampion]

10 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I enjoyed the circus myself. But yeah, I could do without the Shaido, except for the fact they give Galina her due. They would have to come up with a different adventure for Faile and Perrin then. Someone suggested a while back that Faile be captured by Masema instead. Although I really loved his idea of adding forkroot to the the water supply so none of the Shaido Wise Ones could channel.

I think they could condense it so the Perrin has to make a deal with the Whitecloaks in order to Forkroot the Salidar Aes Sedai, leaving them unable to channel when Egwene returns to uncover who is Black Ajah.  Perhaps Perrin knows there is a Forsaken there, so is aiming to capture her in order to free Faile from being used as a pawn, and doesn't care who else gets hurt while handing over the Aes Sedai to be Questioned by the Whitecloaks.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

I think they could condense it so the Perrin has to make a deal with the Whitecloaks in order to Forkroot the Salidar Aes Sedai, leaving them unable to channel when Egwene returns to uncover who is Black Ajah.  Perhaps Perrin knows there is a Forsaken there, so is aiming to capture her in order to free Faile from being used as a pawn, and doesn't care who else gets hurt while handing over the Aes Sedai to be Questioned by the Whitecloaks.

The Salidar Aes Sedai are long gone from Salidar when Perrin gets to that part of the world. Mat has more connection with them.

[Astromech]

Oi, my two least favorite storylines of the series have been mentioned in the last few posts.  I just can't decide which is worse: Perrin's hunt for Faile or the inner workings and maneuverings of the Salidar Aes Sedai. I really hope the tv series trims the hell out of those two storylines. The Perrin/Faile storyline wouldn't have been bad were it not so damn long.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

Oi, my two least favorite storylines of the series have been mentioned in the last few posts.  I just can't decide which is worse: Perrin's hunt for Faile or the inner workings and maneuverings of the Salidar Aes Sedai. I really hope the tv series trims the hell out of those two storylines. The Perrin/Faile storyline wouldn't have been bad were it not so damn long.

There's no way the Aes Sedai Rebellion gets any cuts. If anything, it'll expand. Firstly, because it is one of the better parts of the series, and one that translates real well to screen. Second, because it is core to the themes of WoT, and is the central story of the central female character of the books. 

What they can and probably will do is mix in more action with the storyline. Honestly, they can't have Rand dealing with all the Forsaken. And since a Sammael-Salidar fight was actually feasible in the books, I'd transfer Rand's late-book 7 and book 8 storyline to Egwene. So she must gain her political skills and stabilize her position while the Rebels are fighting Sammael in Illian, and then face the Seanchan for a bruising clash in Northern Altara (where Salidar is) that ends in a draw.

Rand's involvement with Sammael was kind of minimal, so it would not majorly affect his storyline to pass that to Egwene. And she'd have good reason for her focus: she wants Sammael too busy to interfere with Elayne and Nynaeve's Bowl of the Winds mission.

Then, just as Sammael is defeated and the Bowl used, have the Seanchan attack Ebou Dar, as in the books. Now you can have Nynaeve and Elayne spend time with Egwene on that fight, which can have the benefit of delaying the start of the Andor storyline, another benefit.

And deepening Egwene's interaction with the Seanchan would help her arc, too. Have her face them, bring the fight to a draw, realize the Tower needs to be unified to properly end the threat, giving her motivation to Travel to Tar Valon with her armies, while the Kin and Elayne go to Andor.

This also gives Egwene time to build up to being the main action hero of the last few books. And gives greater oomph to the Seanchan invasion of the Tower too.

 

And if they're wise, they'll make neutrality with the Seanchan a major point of contention between Egwene and Rand. Why that was barely an issue in the books is still a bit beyond me. Nothing is more likely to get all the female channeling organizations behind Egwene than their mutual hatred of the Seanchan. And that happened. But then for it to not play any role in her confrontation with Rand was just bizarre.

[Astromech]

It's more the glacial pace of the Salidar Aes Sedai storyline that I have issues with, just like Perrin's rescue of Faile. It takes forever for those two arcs to be resolved. Your suggestion of adding in more action to that storyline is a good one, also necessary imo. One of my issues with Egwene's meteoric rise to her position as Amyrlin is it often seemed without agency on her part, as if she became Amyrlin simply because Siuan and others thought she should be. Show the viewers why Egwene was chosen. Her battling a Forsaken would help, combining that with her shrewd diplomatic skills and politicking.

As an aside it still irks me how the White Tower finally united behind Egwene as Amyrlin because she was right about the Seanchan threat. One of those "I told you so" moments. 

[fionwe1987]

14 minutes ago, Astromech said:

It's more the glacial pace of the Salidar Aes Sedai storyline that I have issues with, just like Perrin's rescue of Faile. It takes forever for those two arcs to be resolved. Your suggestion of adding in more action to that storyline is a good one, also necessary imo. One of my issues with Egwene's meteoric rise to her position as Amyrlin is it often seemed without agency on her part, as if she became Amyrlin simply because Siuan and others thought she should be. Show the viewers why Egwene was chosen. Her battling a Forsaken would help, combining that with her shrewd diplomatic skills and politicking.

As an aside it still irks me how the White Tower finally united behind Egwene as Amyrlin because she was right about the Seanchan threat. One of those "I told you so" moments. 

I'm confused at how the glacial pace of the Tower storyline matches with a meteoric rise for Egwene. Was it a glacial meteor? 

Egwene wasn't chosen for her skills. Or her political acumen (no one knew she had any, among those who picked her). She was kind of chosen as the strongest Accepted who could be used as a puppet. I damn well hope they keep that. Any suggestion that they picked her out of merit would be ludicrous.

 

She didn't stay a puppet, though, and that was largely due to her. Yes, it was crucial that she brought Siuan to her side early, but that, too, was her own achievement.

And no, they didn't unite behind her because she was right about the Seanchan. They did so because, despite her knowledge of how bad things would get, she stayed and fought and repelled the Seanchan. And because she laid the groundwork politically with the Sitters and (unknown to her) Ajah heads. 

[Astromech]

28 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm confused at how the glacial pace of the Tower storyline matches with a meteoric rise for Egwene. Was it a glacial meteor? 

Egwene wasn't chosen for her skills. Or her political acumen (no one knew she had any, among those who picked her). She was kind of chosen as the strongest Accepted who could be used as a puppet. I damn well hope they keep that. Any suggestion that they picked her out of merit would be ludicrous.

 

She didn't stay a puppet, though, and that was largely due to her. Yes, it was crucial that she brought Siuan to her side early, but that, too, was her own achievement.

And no, they didn't unite behind her because she was right about the Seanchan. They did so because, despite her knowledge of how bad things would get, she stayed and fought and repelled the Seanchan. And because she laid the groundwork politically with the Sitters and (unknown to her) Ajah heads. 

Wasn't it Siuan's manipulations of the Salidar Sitters that led to Egwene's selection as Amyrlin? Playing on their fears and rivalries? 

[fionwe1987]

24 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Wasn't it Siuan's manipulations of the Salidar Sitters that led to Egwene's selection as Amyrlin? Playing on their fears and rivalries? 

Yes, which boiled down to: who is strong enough in the Power to look like a serious Amyrlin, but so inexperienced she'll do what you say.

[Gertrude]

Oh my goodness, reading through this reminds me of how much I've forgotten about this series. At some point I became disinvested in the series and read mainly because it was still ok and I wanted to know what happened, but I didn't really care like I did at first.

I just want the show to take the whole story and tighten it up and pace it better. I like the story, the lore, the world, the characters - a whole lot to like. I disliked how many of the characters stagnated and became a caricature of themselves. As frustrating as Egwene could be, I think her arc was the one that moved the best. I could see where she was going and what she was learning (going from my admittedly faulty memory). Nyneave wasn't too bad either, but I got so tired of her block and her anger. After that damn broke I liked how she progressed much better. Still stubborn and angry, but it felt more natural and I didn't want to strangle her with her braid. Same with Rand - I get why he is the way he is, but god-damn you can only read about his face turning to stone - no, marble - no, steel - no, cuendiar - no, something even harder! so many times before it wears on you. Since it's not going to be a 14 season show, the condensing that will have to happen can only do good things in this regard, I think.

[Mladen]

21 hours ago, Astromech said:

As an aside it still irks me how the White Tower finally united behind Egwene as Amyrlin because she was right about the Seanchan threat. One of those "I told you so" moments. 

I wouldn't put it that way. We had many chapters of Egwene's imprisonment and we have seen how she has been working her way. She made sure to communicate with all Ajah Heads as well as Sitters and convince them to unite. Her heroism during the Seanchan invasion was a last straw. We even had Ajah Heads (5 of them, save Blue and Red) having discussed the plans before Egwene came with Salidar Aes Sedai to finally claim the Tower.

That said, I have enjoyed that storyline. Egwene under Elaida, her conversations with Aes Sedai... She proved to be a leader. On the hardest possible way.

[Astromech]

49 minutes ago, Risto said:

I wouldn't put it that way. We had many chapters of Egwene's imprisonment and we have seen how she has been working her way. She made sure to communicate with all Ajah Heads as well as Sitters and convince them to unite. Her heroism during the Seanchan invasion was a last straw. We even had Ajah Heads (5 of them, save Blue and Red) having discussed the plans before Egwene came with Salidar Aes Sedai to finally claim the Tower.

That said, I have enjoyed that storyline. Egwene under Elaida, her conversations with Aes Sedai... She proved to be a leader. On the hardest possible way.

Like, Gertrude there was a lot I forgot as well. Part of it was wanting to forget the whole Salidar storyline and the Perrin/Faile one. Part of what annoyed about the Salidar storyline(but others as well) was how the protagonists simply came across as better (more clever, intelligent, diplomatic, etc. ) than other characters who had years of experience. The Aes Sedai were very guilty of this at times and it bothered me. They were bumbling at times.

[fionwe1987]

27 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Like, Gertrude there was a lot I forgot as well. Part of it was wanting to forget the whole Salidar storyline and the Perrin/Faile one. Part of what annoyed about the Salidar storyline(but others as well) was how the protagonists simply came across as better (more clever, intelligent, diplomatic, etc. ) than other characters who had years of experience. The Aes Sedai were very guilty of this at times and it bothered me. They were bumbling at times.

Honestly, this was less an issue with Salidar than the repetitive chapters in the Gathering Storm, when Egwene is in the Tower.

The Salidar Hall doesn't come across as stupid. They mostly come across as out of touch with the real world, and overly set in their ways.

I honestly don't see how any group that has survived 3000 years with a broadly continuous set of rules can become anything else. They've had unchallenged power for too long, so of course you don't get rewarded for questioning the status quo.

And the success of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve isn't ever held up as proof they're cleverer or stronger willed, but merely lucky not to have been thoroughly indoctrinated, and this is backed up by the fact that the most successful older Aes Sedai are ones who were mostly away from the Tower. And by Siuan's own arc where she begins to realize how being steeped in Tower politics and the heirarchy blinded her to so much.

Honestly, re-reading the Salidar chapters, what strikes me is how similar the Hall sounds so similar to the US Senate. Or Parliament in the UK, or insert governing body here. A system that takes fairly intelligent and competant people and encourages them to focus on posturing and self-importance.

Is Egwene's cutting through the bullshit straight-talk approach succeeding somewhat fantastical? Sure. But it's satisfyingly so. There's enough realpolitik and cynicism mixed in to prevent it from becoming a cloying mess.

[Martell Spy]

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Oh my goodness, reading through this reminds me of how much I've forgotten about this series. At some point I became disinvested in the series and read mainly because it was still ok and I wanted to know what happened, but I didn't really care like I did at first.

I just want the show to take the whole story and tighten it up and pace it better. I like the story, the lore, the world, the characters - a whole lot to like. I disliked how many of the characters stagnated and became a caricature of themselves. As frustrating as Egwene could be, I think her arc was the one that moved the best. I could see where she was going and what she was learning (going from my admittedly faulty memory). Nyneave wasn't too bad either, but I got so tired of her block and her anger. After that damn broke I liked how she progressed much better. Still stubborn and angry, but it felt more natural and I didn't want to strangle her with her braid. Same with Rand - I get why he is the way he is, but god-damn you can only read about his face turning to stone - no, marble - no, steel - no, cuendiar - no, something even harder! so many times before it wears on you. Since it's not going to be a 14 season show, the condensing that will have to happen can only do good things in this regard, I think.

Well, at least there won't have to be dress descriptions. They will just be there. They had better be damn good though after all those pages.

[A True Kaniggit]

29 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Well, at least there won't have to be dress descriptions. They will just be there. They had better be damn good though after all those pages.

They got to blend in with the commoners.  While wearing dresses made of silk.

Though I am ready for that “stout Two Rivers wool” apparently it’s good enough for anybody.