THE WHEEL OF TIME TV Show: The braid tugs, as the writing wills [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Corvinus85]

41 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

They got to blend in with the commoners.  While wearing dresses made of silk.

Though I am ready for that “stout Two Rivers wool” apparently it’s good enough for anybody. 

I'm ready for the 10 dresses/second look in the World of Dreams.

[Mladen]

16 hours ago, Astromech said:

Like, Gertrude there was a lot I forgot as well. Part of it was wanting to forget the whole Salidar storyline and the Perrin/Faile one. Part of what annoyed about the Salidar storyline(but others as well) was how the protagonists simply came across as better (more clever, intelligent, diplomatic, etc. ) than other characters who had years of experience. The Aes Sedai were very guilty of this at times and it bothered me. They were bumbling at times.

That is true. Egwene played the Tower so many times, manipulated them into giving her unlimited power to the point that it became absurd. I will never remember reading how she manipulated the Sitters to give her power to "deal with Kings and Queens", actively forgetting that well, Rand, is a King of Illian and that way, Egwene is the only one to negotiate with him.

[karaddin]

I know it's a weird suggestion to add more story to WoT as part of adapting it, but I think making the first season (or half season) about Siuan and Moiraines search as one plot and Logains false dragon campaign as the other.

One of the things in the first few books is Rand doubting himself which doesn't really work because we know of course he's the dragon. If we start from Logains point of view and go with that exact line of thinking only for it to turn out to be wrong, then Rand's self doubt can actually land much better. Especially in a post GoT tv landscape where people are expecting subversions - Logain sets you up to think he's Bed, then Rand can read as Robb.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I know it's a weird suggestion to add more story to WoT as part of adapting it, but I think making the first season (or half season) about Siuan and Moiraines search as one plot and Logains false dragon campaign as the other.

One of the things in the first few books is Rand doubting himself which doesn't really work because we know of course he's the dragon. If we start from Logains point of view and go with that exact line of thinking only for it to turn out to be wrong, then Rand's self doubt can actually land much better. Especially in a post GoT tv landscape where people are expecting subversions - Logain sets you up to think he's Bed, then Rand can read as Robb.

I think the producers are thinking that way. Or at least in some part. We know the first season will focus more on Moiraine, I also think Judkins said somewhere that Logain will have a bigger role than in the books. 

I think that fleshing out Logain with his madness shown would actually give us much clearer idea of why would people be afraid of savior figure Rand is supposed to become.

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

I think the producers are thinking that way. Or at least in some part. We know the first season will focus more on Moiraine, I also think Judkins said somewhere that Logain will have a bigger role than in the books. 

I think that fleshing out Logain with his madness shown would actually give us much clearer idea of why would people be afraid of savior figure Rand is supposed to become.

Agreed that adding Logain, and the whole Tower plot-y element around him, would help the early season. It makes the White Tower a lot more up front a lot earlier, which helps add complexity and politics. Honestly, if they introduce Logain earlier, as well as Siuan, that already complicates the Eye of the World. They don't need to change the story, just add new perspectives. And seeing how weary the world is of False Dragons helps set up the reaction to Rand, as you said. 

Another side benefit of introducing Logain early: you have to introduce Cadsuane as well, which helps make her later entry into the story smoother. Seeing her kick ass against Logain early then walk off into the sunset (ie. rose garden), makes her re-entry a lot smoother. For one, we'll get why the other Aes Sedai are tongue tied and helpless around her. For another, she'd seem a lot more threatening to Rand right around the time he's starting to look pretty much unstoppable. 

As for Egwene and that whole King and Queen jazz... yeah it was a bit much. It was very Sanderson, who can only have one clever person in the room in any of his scenes. The Hall not knowing the Emergency Powers provision of a law that hasn't been invoked in a thousand years (Artur Hawkwing was the last to face that from the Tower), I can buy. The Hall forgetting Rand was King of Illian, which happened a few months ago in book time, makes no sense. Nor does the Hall never even questioning why "King of Illian" is the title of Rand's that supersedes all others. 

The worst of it is, it plays absolutely no role. Egwene takes five Sitters to her meeting with Rand, and when she signs his treaty, she makes it clear it is pending a vote in the Hall, so what did her sole control over negotiations with Rand mean anyway? Hopefully, the show will have to compress the later books enough to remove this kind of needless stuff.

[Gertrude]

19 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hopefully, the show will have to compress the later books enough to remove this kind of needless stuff.

Please, please let that be so. In the books I didn't mind the story being told - it was a good story - but it got so bogged down and stalled in certain areas. The Shaido served a purpose, but god they lingered beyond their usefulness or my threshold to care. Same with Salidar politics. I mean the list could go on, but trimming and compressing is what I always wanted for this story.

So now that I'm thinking on a few things - what was the actual purpose of the Slayer/Luke thing? Just to get us used to Perrin in the Dreamworld? It was an interesting bit of lore on these two characters, but ultimately pointless? Or if it had a point it was pretty much lost on me or it just completely slipped out of my head. Can it be cut entirely?

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Gertrude said:

So now that I'm thinking on a few things - what was the actual purpose of the Slayer/Luke thing? Just to get us used to Perrin in the Dreamworld? It was an interesting bit of lore on these two characters, but ultimately pointless? Or if it had a point it was pretty much lost on me or it just completely slipped out of my head. Can it be cut entirely?

Yeah, I don't really know beyond the Perrin connection. Luc is related by blood with Rand, and Isam to Lan, but nothing comes of it with either character. I really thought he would cross paths with Lan eventually. I still want him in the show, but Perrin can take him out earlier in the story. 

[The Anti-Targ]

I relented and signed up for Amazon Prime. I'm on the 30 day free trial at the moment and will look to binge my way through Good Omens, The Marvelous Mrs Maisel and a few others in that time. But Prime is pissing me off a bit by gating some of its own content as either not available in NZ at all or requiring an additional outlay of $$. So I don't see myself being a perpetual subscriber to Amazon Prime. No other reason to be on Prime here as their goods sales do not provide any value above what other online retailers provide. Hopefully WoT will be fully available to Prime subscribers when it comes out, but if it isn't I'll be giving Jeff Bezos the big middle finger and giving it a miss.

[SansaJonRule]

On 7/12/2019 at 3:03 PM, Gertrude said:

Nyneave wasn't too bad either, but I got so tired of her block and her anger.

I'm on my third read, currently on LoC and I was just thinking that last night. Let's get this over with already! Unforturnately I don't think that happens until book 8.

On 7/12/2019 at 3:03 PM, Gertrude said:

Same with Rand - I get why he is the way he is, but god-damn you can only read about his face turning to stone - no, marble - no, steel - no, cuendiar - no, something even harder! so many times before it wears on you.

Jordan did have an unfortunate habit of describing certain things the same way ad nauseum, like Lan's face--all hard planes and angles. That's the kind of stuff that we fortunately won't have to put up with in a visual medium.

On 7/11/2019 at 9:00 PM, Astromech said:

Wasn't it Siuan's manipulations of the Salidar Sitters that led to Egwene's selection as Amyrlin? Playing on their fears and rivalries? 

Yes

On 7/12/2019 at 10:53 PM, Martell Spy said:

Well, at least there won't have to be dress descriptions. They will just be there. They had better be damn good though after all those pages.

I for one am very much looking forward to all those pretty dresses! They better have a big costuming budget!

On 7/12/2019 at 5:43 PM, Risto said:

That said, I have enjoyed that storyline. Egwene under Elaida, her conversations with Aes Sedai... She proved to be a leader. On the hardest possible way.

I loved Egwene ferreting out the BA sisters.

[SansaJonRule]

I really hope that as Rand goes through his various stages, they are able to depict his feelings of loneliness and isolation, and his self loathing, not just how others see him. I believe it shows that he never truly loses himself, and of course, adds so much depth to his character.

Last night I read the part in LoC when he meets Bode and the other Two Rivers girls in the inn in Camelyn. He ends up scaring them half to death to prove to them he is the DR.  He thinks to himself that it is for the best, but he wishes they could have talked about home just a little longer. It made my heart ache for him.

It occurred to me a few days ago that Amazon has more riding on the first season of WoT than just the success of this series. Since it will air first, it could have a huge impact on attracting viewers to their Middle Earth series. If they do it well, people will be more enthusiastic about ME, if not, then ME might possibly be a flop just because viewers don't think they can do the show justice. I wish they were airing Middle Earth first, because I think that will be a much easier series to do well.

[Gertrude]

6 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I really hope that as Rand goes through his various stages, they are able to depict his feelings of loneliness and isolation, and his self loathing, not just how others see him. I believe it shows that he never truly loses himself, and of course, adds so much depth to his character.

I think if they use Min properly, this is where a lot of his inner thoughts can come out in the later stages. Before that, Moiraine can still be his sounding board. I honestly don't remember all the fine detail of his relationships and I know he and Moiraine clash a lot and he shuts down with her (I think), but if they are making Moiraine a more important part of the story, then they can really do a lot with this relationship. Their conflicts could be a good opportunity for snapshots of the characters' mindsets and exposition.

[Myrddin]

On 7/12/2019 at 10:53 PM, Martell Spy said:

Well, at least there won't have to be dress descriptions. They will just be there. They had better be damn good though after all those pages.

Makes you wonder what the wardrobe budget is going to be for the show.  

[fionwe1987]

On 7/14/2019 at 11:35 AM, Gertrude said:

Please, please let that be so. In the books I didn't mind the story being told - it was a good story - but it got so bogged down and stalled in certain areas. The Shaido served a purpose, but god they lingered beyond their usefulness or my threshold to care. Same with Salidar politics. I mean the list could go on, but trimming and compressing is what I always wanted for this story.

So now that I'm thinking on a few things - what was the actual purpose of the Slayer/Luke thing? Just to get us used to Perrin in the Dreamworld? It was an interesting bit of lore on these two characters, but ultimately pointless? Or if it had a point it was pretty much lost on me or it just completely slipped out of my head. Can it be cut entirely?

Well his purpose was to be a villain with interesting powers and an interesting backstory. Both of which are true. And to serve as foreshadowing of Perrin and Hopper's souls semi-merging to allow Perrin the same powers.

WoT has such an overabundance of intricate connections and parallels and so on that it's just impossible for ALL of it to pay off in some particularly meaningful way.

A lot of it served to let RJ say out the foreshadowing of the finale in plain sight. Nothing about the ending came out of the left field. To do that, several potential clues were laid to perfectly serviceable alternate endings. Since those didn't come to pass, they had less satisfactory payoffs. Maybe they do matter more in some other turning of the Wheel.

In the show, I doubt Isam would need a similar amount of backstory. His powers alone should make him interesting enough. And since he plays a major role in Perrin's later arc, as well as the Tower's storyline, that's reason enough to keep him.

[fionwe1987]

14 hours ago, Myrddin said:

Makes you wonder what the wardrobe budget is going to be for the show.  

It better be big. I think it's going to be needed to give WoT it's own distinctive visual style. WoT isn't set in a mideival world. It's closer to Renaissance Europe in clothing, technology, law, trade and society. Silk, for instance, while expensive, isn't rare. Even Emond's Field villagers have their Sunday silks. They just don't wear silk everyday, when they use "good Two Rivers wool". 

By book 4, our main characters are mostly all regularly wearing silk, and have multiple different sets of clothing too. As Egwene becomes Amyrlin, they're going to have to have her wearing very spelendid gowns, same as most of the Sitters. Elaida and her Hall as well. Same with the nobility of any country, and Elayne and Nynaeve once they become Aes Sedai, and Rand and later Mat as well.

Perrin is the only major character they can get away with dressing in staid, drab clothes. Even Siuan's spartan clothing choices don't survive once she stops being the Amyrlin. Lan's wardrobe probably will be staid, but he's going to need that color shifting semi-invisibility cloak that I really hope they manage to put on screen.

And the utter decadance has to reach a culmination in Graendal's wardrobe, which has strieth as well as mood reacting fabrics in the mix.

Only the Aiel, dressed in cotton and wool, are going to be relatively easy to costume. The rest of WoT is a comparatively much wealthier world than the worlds of LotR and GoT, and I hope they don't skimp on showing that and instead create a drab colorless world like GoTs was.

[Astromech]

I'm going to scream if they make Mat look like Gambit. 

Excited to see Thom's gleeman cloak, the Ebou Dari marriage knives and curious to see how they design the costumes for the Domani. 

[SansaJonRule]

18 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think if they use Min properly, this is where a lot of his inner thoughts can come out in the later stages. Before that, Moiraine can still be his sounding board. I honestly don't remember all the fine detail of his relationships and I know he and Moiraine clash a lot and he shuts down with her (I think), but if they are making Moiraine a more important part of the story, then they can really do a lot with this relationship. Their conflicts could be a good opportunity for snapshots of the characters' mindsets and exposition.

Yes, that would be a good way to expand Moiraine's role. He starts to trust her while they are in the Aiel Waste after she gives him an oath of obedience, so maybe he can confine in her a little bit and her response can be sympathetic but "we do what we must". Then Min can be his confidante later. The only thing is, in the books he keeps this stuff all to himself as much as possible, so if it's more than occasional, it will feel too far from the books.

[SansaJonRule]

3 hours ago, Astromech said:

I'm going to scream if they make Mat look like Gambit. 

Excited to see Thom's gleeman cloak, the Ebou Dari marriage knives and curious to see how they design the costumes for the Domani. 

What's wrong with looking like Gambit? I'm only going from web images, but his face sure looks right, just the hat is wrong.

Ugh, I hate the marriage knives. They just sound so far fetched, like nothing nobody in their right mind would ever wear--certainly original! At least to my knowledge.

That's one thing about WoT that bugs me. EVERYBODY from a given country wears the same style clothes, or hair, or something, more so than you would ever see in real life. But then, it's not real life, it's fantasy, and that's why we read it!

[Gertrude]

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

In the show, I doubt Isam would need a similar amount of backstory. His powers alone should make him interesting enough. And since he plays a major role in Perrin's later arc, as well as the Tower's storyline, that's reason enough to keep him.

I had to go back to the wiki to remind myself of what Slayer did later in the books. I had forgotten that he was a tool of the Forsaken directly and that he had the dreamspikes. So sure, he stays, but as you said, his backstory would be too much intrigue for too little payoff - axe it. I just really remember being really bored by him through most of the books.

7 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

The only thing is, in the books he keeps this stuff all to himself as much as possible, so if it's more than occasional, it will feel too far from the books.

Oh sure, don't overuse it, but it can be used to compliment other things they are showing on-screen. There are lots of ways to show inner turmoil, dialog is just the most blunt - usually the most unambiguous, too. Sometimes you just need someone to outright say what they are thinking.

[Gertrude]

7 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

That's one thing about WoT that bugs me. EVERYBODY from a given country wears the same style clothes, or hair, or something, more so than you would ever see in real life. But then, it's not real life, it's fantasy, and that's why we read it!

I've had this conversation many times. that aspect of the worldbuilding felt so shallow to me. Slap on some colorful petticoats and give them a fierce disposition - Ebou Dari. Is a woman wearing a clingy dress and working her wiles on you? Must be Domani. I mean, I like the details in general and it does add to the world, but it does get to feel like caricatures that are paper-thin and end abruptly at borders. My personal preference is that you see these differences, but go rather sparingly on characters/extras who match that EXACT description and mix in some generic looks as well. Make it feel lived in.

[fionwe1987]

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I've had this conversation many times. that aspect of the worldbuilding felt so shallow to me. Slap on some colorful petticoats and give them a fierce disposition - Ebou Dari. Is a woman wearing a clingy dress and working her wiles on you? Must be Domani. I mean, I like the details in general and it does add to the world, but it does get to feel like caricatures that are paper-thin and end abruptly at borders. My personal preference is that you see these differences, but go rather sparingly on characters/extras who match that EXACT description and mix in some generic looks as well. Make it feel lived in.

Except this never plays out in practice. In the counties we spend most time in: Andor, Cairhein and Altara, we see quite a bit of local variation.

WoT stereotypes work very like real world ones. Outsiders have a set of assumptions, then you go on and things change.

What isn't realistic is that there are some abrupt changes over the borders. The lack of gradations is weird, especially when the borders are porous and not geographically hard to cross or anything. Why northern Murandy and Southern Andor don't have more in common is beyond me. That part is bad worldbuilding, I agree. But it's also hardly going to matter on screen.