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Corvinus

THE WHEEL OF TIME TV Show: The braid tugs, as the writing wills [BOOK SPOILERS]

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I don't think there's any way they can cast/give prominence to all the F orsaken. 13 villains, some of them getting resurrected, is too much for an approximately 7-8 season series. 

The top 6: Ishamael, Lanfear, Demanded, Graendal, Sammael and Semirhage will all have to come in sooner. Moghedien and Asmodean will definitely be in. I expect that's going to be it.

 

They'll probably roll in Sammael and Be'lal, since their stories never intersect. Very probably, some combination of Aginor, Balthamel, Rahvin and Mesaana are going to be rolled into one too.

Among the BA, Liandrin, Galina, Sheriam, Verin and Alviarin will be the big ones they'll need to cast. The rest will be mostly nameless extras.

 

I like the idea of a Forsaken personally heading the BA, but I think it'd make sense for the far more distinctive and memorable Graendal to take that role. Arad Doman's storyline is almost certainly going to be chopped, leaving her free. And I'd personally love to see Christina Hendricks as Graendal. And if they somehow manage to steal Danai Gurira to be Semirhage, it would be incredible.

Edited by fionwe1987

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11 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I was already married with children, so I guess I was fantasizing about my wife in the end? Ugh, boring.

:rofl::rofl:

 

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Of the secondary male characters, definitely the five Great Captains, who each should be introduced maybe one per season until they all have active arcs beefed up to deal with things like Whitecloaks, Shaido, Seanchan, Trollocs, Rand's Aiel, and general political/military chaos as the Forsaken try to take each nation.

 

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5 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Yes, but they may need to keep her around a lot longer than Liandrin was in the books, just to avoid having to introduce new characters to play the same part in the arc.  Too many characters and viewers will will start to notice a lot of them are basically the same personality-wise.

Liandrin is around from Book 2 to Book 11, which is most of the series (although she isn't doing much at the end, just being Suroth's damane). 

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5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I don't think there's any way they can cast/give prominence to all the F orsaken. 13 villains, some of them getting resurrected, is too much for an approximately 7-8 season series. 

The top 6: Ishamael, Lanfear, Demanded, Graendal, Sammael and Semirhage will all have to come in sooner. Moghedien and Asmodean will definitely be in. I expect that's going to be it.

 

They'll probably roll in Sammael and Be'lal, since their stories never intersect. Very probably, some combination of Aginor, Balthamel, Rahvin and Mesaana are going to be rolled into one too.

Among the BA, Liandrin, Galina, Sheriam, Verin and Alviarin will be the big ones they'll need to cast. The rest will be mostly nameless extras.

 

I like the idea of a Forsaken personally heading the BA, but I think it'd make sense for the far more distinctive and memorable Graendal to take that role. Arad Doman's storyline is almost certainly going to be chopped, leaving her free. And I'd personally love to see Christina Hendricks as Graendal. And if they somehow manage to steal Danai Gurira to be Semirhage, it would be incredible.

But you need to have 13 it's the number that makes people feel ookee. But the 13 can just be an historical list, the number that the DO allows to come back to complete his return can be 7 or 8 as you say. And the promise of becoming one of the 13 (filling the vacancies) can be one of the enticements for some of the current generation of channelers.

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19 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

But you need to have 13 it's the number that makes people feel ookee. But the 13 can just be an historical list, the number that the DO allows to come back to complete his return can be 7 or 8 as you say. And the promise of becoming one of the 13 (filling the vacancies) can be one of the enticements for some of the current generation of channelers.

Or, have the 13, but have the rest clearly be underlings. Which has the benefit of being somewhat true.

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On 7/7/2019 at 1:08 PM, Corvinus said:

Which is why they could and should give more time to the Forsaken. They'll likely have a lot of time for Lanfear and Moghedien. But Semirhage, Graendal, and Mesaana could be given more. For example, I think Mesaana could take Alviarin's place. She takes controls of the BA in the Tower, and rises through the non-suspicious ranks of the Aes Sedai, becoming Elaida's Keeper and true power in the Tower, making her eventual defeat by Egwene that much grander and more satisfying. 

I agree. We seem to get only short glimpses of most of them. The Forsaken are legendary evil people who are used to scare children into behaving, and they all know Lews Therin from the AoL.At the same time, they can't wait until near the end to start killing them all off. I think that would frustrate the viewers.

Are you saying Messana should pretend to be Alviarin, (in which case Alviarian would be a prisoner somewhere or dead)? Because obviously she has to be someone that Elaida would know well enough to think she can trust to be her keeper. I can see how on one hand that would make her defeat by Egwene more satisfying, but on the other hand, doesn't she keep a low profile, assuming an identity that is easily overlooked? In that respect, it is a greater success on Egwene's part to ferret her out.

If they follow the books, Lanfear gets crossed toward the end of FoH, so that would only be presumably 2 1/2 seasons. Truthfully Lanfear annoys me so that suits me just fine. But if they put off Lanfear's death, they would presumably but off Moiraine's death which IMO would be great. I just finished rereading Fires of Heaven and I feel so sad at the prospect of no Moiraine for SEVEN books! And with a big name like Rosamun Pike, I can definitely see them keeping her around longer.

On 7/7/2019 at 7:22 AM, The Anti-Targ said:

Who are some significant tower characters who have pillow friends? Ugh, that's one thing I think they need to get a bit more woke about. Lesbian relationships in the Tower being out and proud, not talked in hushed tones using euphemisms.

The only ones I recall being mentioned are Siuan and Moiraine, and only in passing. But why out and proud? Did you not read New Spring? I believe that is the book where it explains that novices and accepted find comfort in pillow friends because of the stress and loneliness they endure during their training. (They are pretty much cut off from the world, and that includes men.) Most of them end the behavior when they are raised to Aes Sedai.

Apparently you haven't heard that Rafe Judkins said there are going to be "pillow friends" out the wazoo if you are concerned about it. I think it's stupid because other than Greens, most are too busy being "Aes Sedai" to even have romantic relationships. So it injects two aspects into the Aes Sedai that are not presented that way in the books. I know it's politically correct and they want to garner as much positive media coverage as possible, but it's also untrue to the source material for that to get much attention and bottom line is it does not enhance the story. I think it would be better to show some of the nobles and commoners in the towns arm and arm  or canoodling with a member of the same sex in the more liberal countries (to emphasize cultural differences between the countries). 

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On 7/7/2019 at 7:34 PM, The Anti-Targ said:

But you need to have 13 it's the number that makes people feel ookee. But the 13 can just be an historical list, the number that the DO allows to come back to complete his return can be 7 or 8 as you say. And the promise of becoming one of the 13 (filling the vacancies) can be one of the enticements for some of the current generation of channelers.

Yes, thirteen is a "bad luck" number. It also corresponds to the number of Aes Sedai needed to gentle a male channeler, and the number of Aes Sedai and mydraal needed to turn someone to the dark lord against their will.

Another consideration is four of them are killed by the end of TDR, which would only be the second season of the TV show. Aginor, Balthamael and Belal will be insignificant and can basically be cast as "extras" for all practical purposes. Then three more are crossed off in TFoH. That's 7 in five books out of 14. And I think it's important to have them gradually killed off because it helps demonstrate Rand's growth in his use of the OP, and gives us a sense that Rand is making progress against them.

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3 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes, thirteen is a "bad luck" number. It also corresponds to the number of Aes Sedai needed to gentle a male channeler, and the number of Aes Sedai and mydraal needed to turn someone to the dark lord against their will.

Not needed. Just another one of those stupid Aes Sedai traditions.

Like them ranking themselves by power level.

 

I mean, what are they barbarians? With the leader being the guy with the largest muscles? 

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41 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Not needed. Just another one of those stupid Aes Sedai traditions.

Where did you read that? I admit the 13 is not in the Companion or on the wiki. To the best of my memory it is always said that 13 are needed. I've just finished FoH, so admittedly if that is mentioned in the next 9 books I could easily have forgotten.

It does make for an interesting parallel though.

 

Edited by SansaJonRule

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42 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I mean, what are they barbarians? With the leader being the guy with the largest muscles? 

The men being gentled would probably say so.

BTW, does anyone know if there is a way to add an additional quote when editing a comment? It never works for me--always creates a new post.

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My memory was just that 13 is the point at which it doesn't matter how strong someone is, the circle will 100% of the time be able to overpower them. Therefore that number is guaranteed to be able to gentle a man. So its like a seat belt if you will rather than a pointless tradition.

1 minute ago, SansaJonRule said:

The men being gentled would probably say so.

BTW, does anyone know if there is a way to add an additional quote when editing a comment? It never works for me--always creates a new post.

If on a proper computer you can start editing your post, click the quote button to get the quote down into the new post text box then click in there and select all + cut/paste into your edit post text box. Like I'm doing right now.

On a mobile OS? Out of luck I think. Quotes are much harder on my android to manipulate and I don't think select all works, but that might actually be wrong. You can try.

Edited by karaddin

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On 7/7/2019 at 7:22 AM, The Anti-Targ said:

I feel like Krysten Ritter could be a red who hasn't gone bad. Perhaps one of the Reds that go and watchdog the Black Tower. She suits being someone who is pretty sharp edged and hard of heart, but still with her head in the right place.

The way you describe her, she would be perfect for Pevara!

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6 minutes ago, karaddin said:

My memory was just that 13 is the point at which it doesn't matter how strong someone is, the circle will 100% of the time be able to overpower them. Therefore that number is guaranteed to be able to gentle a man. So its like a seat belt if you will rather than a pointless tradition.

If on a proper computer you can start editing your post, click the quote button to get the quote down into the new post text box then click in there and select all + cut/paste into your edit post text box. Like I'm doing right now.

As I thought about it after I posted that, your explanation is what came to mind.

Oh the quotation marks on the toolbar, right? I've used them before, but forgot all about them! Thank you!

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4 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yes, thirteen is a "bad luck" number. It also corresponds to the number of Aes Sedai needed to gentle a male channeler, and the number of Aes Sedai and mydraal needed to turn someone to the dark lord against their will.

Another consideration is four of them are killed by the end of TDR, which would only be the second season of the TV show. Aginor, Balthamael and Belal will be insignificant and can basically be cast as "extras" for all practical purposes. Then three more are crossed off in TFoH. That's 7 in five books out of 14. And I think it's important to have them gradually killed off because it helps demonstrate Rand's growth in his use of the OP, and gives us a sense that Rand is making progress against them.

There weren't thirteen Forsaken, there were twenty-nine. The thirteen were the ones who just happened to be at Shayol Ghul and were bound when the Dark One's prison was sealed, so they could adapt the numbers if needed.

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I don't get why anyone thinks minimizing the number of Forsaken would be necessary or desirable.  There are plenty of options to have only a few at a time in any most seasons (except the last, where not even all 13 would be still alive / non-balefired) if they want to minimize the bill for casting.  But for keeping the budget under control they should look elsewhere than cutting casting for the major antagonists.  Like start with the most lacking in energy / interest plotlines like the whole Circus, and the Shaido should be done after Mat kills Couladin.

Edited by SpaceChampion

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I think the big thing I'd like to see with the Forsaken is no resurrections. Maybe an exception for Lanfear given she dies in an unusual way and there's actual things for her to do but the rest take up more space than they add. It really feels like the main point of it is to give Rand a reason to need to use balefire and surely that can be done another way.

It's especially the two in TEotW that I want to stay dead, it just undoes too much of that climax.

I wonder if you could rearrange a lot of that anyway, the death of the Green Man would have a lot more impact after we know the Aiel, where they came from, who he is and what is actually being lost there.

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9 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

If they follow the books, Lanfear gets crossed toward the end of FoH, so that would only be presumably 2 1/2 seasons. Truthfully Lanfear annoys me so that suits me just fine. But if they put off Lanfear's death, they would presumably but off Moiraine's death which IMO would be great. I just finished rereading Fires of Heaven and I feel so sad at the prospect of no Moiraine for SEVEN books! And with a big name like Rosamun Pike, I can definitely see them keeping her around longer.

If they follow the books, Moiraine would probably stay dead for a full season, and return the next, as I see a lot of condensing happening with the latter books. That being said, my main problem is with Moiraine coming back. I have to re-read A Memory of Light, as that's the only book I only read once, but I don't recall her doing much after she came back. She helped Rand at the end, but her return felt a bit anti-climactic at the time.

59 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I think the big thing I'd like to see with the Forsaken is no resurrections. Maybe an exception for Lanfear given she dies in an unusual way and there's actual things for her to do but the rest take up more space than they add. It really feels like the main point of it is to give Rand a reason to need to use balefire and surely that can be done another way.

It's especially the two in TEotW that I want to stay dead, it just undoes too much of that climax.

I wonder if you could rearrange a lot of that anyway, the death of the Green Man would have a lot more impact after we know the Aiel, where they came from, who he is and what is actually being lost there.

Lanfear was actually killed by Moridin as punishment, and then resurrected, if I recall correctly. But Ishamel's resurrection is a must, given he is ultimately the Shadow's champion, and what happens at the end with him and Rand. I agree about Aginor and Balthamel. I do hope we see some of the severe punishments some of the Forsaken receive, like that thing that allows Moridin to control Moghedien and new Lanfear.

Edited by Corvinus

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1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Lanfear was actually killed by Moridin as punishment, and then resurrected, if I recall correctly. But Ishamel's resurrection is a must, given he is ultimately the Shadow's champion, and what happens at the end with him and Rand. I agree about Aginor and Balthamel. I do hope we see some of the severe punishments some of the Forsaken receive, like that thing that allows Moridin to control Moghedien and new Lanfear.

No, Lanfear was killed by the Finn after Moiraine pushed her through the doorway.

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Actually, Corvinus is right. Although she wasn’t killed as punishment, but so that the Dark Ome could resurrect her. 

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