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CAllDSmith

Lord Steffon's Tourney, Another Reading

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I know that GRRM's official statement on the White Book mentioning "Lord Steffon's Tourney" and Ser Barristan recalling Simon Toyne being there is that Ser Barristan is mixing up his tourneys. I wonder if anyone would object to a possible different interpretation so long as Ser Barristan's mental senility doesn't become important to the plot later. Ser Gerold who would have known Lord Steffon and Lord Steffon's father for most of his life, referred to the tourney as "Lord Steffon's Tourney" Because it was his funeral tourney and Robert sent his father off with a party like he wanted to himself. This would square the references without making Selmy seem senile. And of course we also have a reason for why the entries are out of order chronologically, Ser Gerold had been shot in the sword/writing hand sometime between 279-281 after all! 

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, CAllDSmith said:

I know that GRRM's official statement on the White Book mentioning "Lord Steffon's Tourney" and Ser Barristan recalling Simon Toyne being there is that Ser Barristan is mixing up his tourneys. I wonder if anyone would object to a possible different interpretation so long as Ser Barristan's mental senility doesn't become important to the plot later. Ser Gerold who would have known Lord Steffon and Lord Steffon's father for most of his life, referred to the tourney as "Lord Steffon's Tourney" Because it was his funeral tourney and Robert sent his father off with a party like he wanted to himself. This would square the references without making Selmy seem senile. And of course we also have a reason for why the entries are out of order chronologically, Ser Gerold had been shot in the sword/writing hand sometime between 279-281 after all! 

When the discrepancy was brought to his attention, George R.R. Martin stated that Barristan's recollection of Simon's participation is incorrect and that the aged knight is confusing multiple historical tourneys: one hosted by Lord Steffon before his death, and one hosted by Robert after Steffon's death.

Robert was roughly 16 years old when his father died. During one of the tourney's at Storm's End, Barristan defeated Robert.

If Robert hosted a tourney it was after his father's death in 278, but before the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281, so either 279 or 280.

Hightower noted that Rhaegar defeated Simon Toyne in the lists at Lord Steffon's Tourney. Robert's tourney was either 279 or 280 so Rhaegar still could have faced Simon Toyne while yet alive, but I don't think Hightower had any reason to make a mistake in naming at which tourney that happened.

Hightower was Lord Commander when he listed the name of the tourney and Rhaegar's win against Simon Toyne. After the Rebellion, Robert made Barristan the Lord Commander. 

Barristan killed Simon Toyne in 281 when the king's detachment defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood, and yet he changed the date of the tourney to occur a month or two prior to the Tourney at Harrenhal. There's no way that Barristan had forgotten when he killed Simon Toyne and when he went against that same man in the tilt! That is too big of a discrepancy to be a mistake. This was deliberate! This wasn't the mistake of an aging knight showing early signs of senility. It was a deliberate clue for anyone investigating what really happened with the Kingswood Brotherhood.

 

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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There is no mistake, if the tournament at Storm's End happened while Steffon Baratheon was still alive. He died in 278. At that tournament Rhaegar had defeated Oberyn Martell. So, maybe, while Oberyn was there, Elia also came with him, and that's when Rhaegar and Elia met.

At that tournament Rhaegar defeated and unmasked Simon Toyne, and about that tournament Barristan said  -"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."

Elia Martell was attacked by Kingswood Brotherhood. Ulmer kissed her, and stole from her a chest of golden dragons, and her jewels. So, maybe, that happened after the tournament at Storm's End, when Elia was travering someplace else, maybe back to Dorne, via land-route, or she went via land to King's Landing, and was attacked on the way there.

Then, after that tournament, that possibly was a sort of a farewell party, prior Steffon and his wife went to Volantis, to look for a bride for Rhaegar, Steffon died in the sea, and Rhaegar married with Elia (in early 280). And then in 281 the Kingswood Brotherhood was obliterated by Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower got wounded by Ulmer, and Jaime Lannister was knighted by Arthur.

There could be several reasons why the entries in the book are out of order, and why Gerold hadn't written them down shortly after those events happened.

I think, that the right order is this (those three events in the book are written in reversed order than here):

1. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.

(In 278, prior Steffon's departure).

2. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight, Blackshield revealing him to be the Bastard of Uplands.

(Probably in 279, prior wedding of Rhaegar and Elia, that was held in early 280).

3. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, slaying the former.

(In my opinion, this happened in early 281, at the same night when Elia's Aegon was conceived at King's Landing, and a comet was passing in the sky. I think that Jeyne Swann is septa Lemore, her septa was actually Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour. It all was a set up, and when Barristan saved them, Shiera gave him a love potion to drink, and Jeyne seduced him and got pregnant, and later, at about the same time as Elia gave birth to Aegon (in December of 281), Jeyne gave birth to fAegon.)

The order of the records are reversed, not to make readers to figure out that bit about Barristan is fAegon's father. And the excuse, why Gerold wasn't recording anything, in a span of a bit over two years, is because he was away. For example, the Storm's End tourney was held in late 278, and at that time Gerold was away from King's Landing. In early 281 he got wounded. So there's only 279 and 280, when Gerold could have wrote those entries, and for some reason he didn't. Maybe in 279-280 he was also most of the time away from KL. Maybe after news about Steffon's death in 278, Gerold was sent by Aerys to Volantis, to investigate what was Steffon doing there, whether he did found a bride for Rhaegar. Or he was sent there on the same mission, that was previously failed by Steffon. So, in early 279 he was at Volantis. Then, when he returned to Westeros, in second half of 279, he was sent to Dorne, to personally negotiate with Martells about possible marriage between Elia and Rhaegar. Then he stayed at Dorne until early 280, and escorted Elia to King's Landing, where was held her wedding. Possibly, after the wedding, Gerold was sent with Rhaegar to Dragonstone, to keep a watch on him, because of Aerys' paranoia. Rhaegar had returned to King's Landing at list 6 months after Rhaenys' birth. Rhaegar and Elia got married in very early 280, so Rhaenys was born in period between the middle of October and the end of December of 280. 6 months later is a period between the middle of April and June of 281. Possibly after Gerold had returned from Dragonstone, when Rhaegar and Elia came to present Rhaenys to her grandparents, Gerold was sent on a mission, to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood, and that's when he got wounded. So when later he returned to King's Landing, this time to stay there, even when Rhaegar and his family will go back to Dragonstone, he was unable to write. It took some time for his hand to heal, and when he was able to write again, he recorded all events, that have happened in the time, that he was gone on various missions. And those three events in Barristan's entry were recorded in reversed order, because first he wrote what he remembered the freshest - the most recent event, when Barristan saved Lady Jeyne from Kingswood Brotherhood, then about tournament at Oldtown (possibly Gerold also attended it, while he was negotiating with Martells in Dorne), and only then the events, that have actually happened first - the tournament at Storm's End, that had happened in 278, when Steffon Baratheon was still alive.  

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Posted (edited)

While it's an interesting theory that Young Griff is Barristan Selmy's bastard, I think Barristan actually had motive to change the date, but before I get to that, there should not have been any reason for why LC Hightower would not have made that entry shortly after the Lord Steffon's Tourney occurred prior to 278. Hightower's hand was not injured yet - not until the first encounter with the Kingswood Brotherhood when they attacked Elia, so it seems odd to me to assume that he'd wait nearly three years to make that entry.

The detachment sent to deal with the KWB was lead by Ser Arthur Dayne since Hightower was injured. Barristan and Jaime along with Sumner Crakehall and Merrit Frey were members of that detachment. It's why Arthur knighted Jaime.

Now back to Barristan's motive...after Cersei and Joffrey removed him from office, Barristan marched back to his LC quarters to gather his belongings and changed the date of that tourney to leave as a clue for the next Lord Commander. Surely he would have guessed that the position would soon fall to Jaime, and since Jaime's page was so blank - he must have known that he'd want to fill in any details and would read some of the previous entries and know that Barristan had inserted the wrong date! IMO it is clear that Barristan intended for Jaime to find his "mistake"!

As previously stated, Jaime was part of the same detachment that took down the Kingswood Brotherhood, so he would know Simon Toyne was dead as well as Steffon in late 281. What was Barristan trying to convey to Jaime? I think many readers suspect that Barristan would like a little revenge on the Lannisters, and I think Barristan is privy to a secret that he knows Jaime also knows about, so by changing the date he is warning Jaime that he plans to work towards unveiling this secret.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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GRRM doesn't lie to folks. If he says it's a mistake, it's a mistake.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Ran said:

GRRM doesn't lie to folks. If he says it's a mistake, it's a mistake.

Yes it's a mistake. I'm suggesting it's a deliberate mistake. For GRRM to admit that it was deliberate would not only invite further questioning, but would be revealing his plot, wouldn't you agree?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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If it's a plot point, he'd answer like he did with the question of Sansa's memory of a kiss from the Hound. Here, he literally provides that he made an error and then figures out a reason for the error, namely Barristan's memory not being what it once was.

You're making much out of nothing.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The detachment sent to deal with the KWB was lead by Ser Arthur Dayne since Hightower was injured. Barristan and Jaime along with Sumner Crakehall and Merrit Frey were members of that detachment. It's why Arthur knighted Jaime.

"In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups."

 

Maybe Gerold was wounded in 278, when he was escorting Elia Martell from Storm's End, where she was attending that tournament with her brother. She wasn't Rhaegar's bride yet, but she was a royal princess, thus she got a royal escort/protection. Afterwards Gerold was unable to write for some time, and then, in 279, he was sent to Dorne to negotiate with Martells about possible marriage between Elia and Rhaegar. And they (Targaryens) had sent specifically Gerold, because 1. he was a Dornishman, and 2. he did saved Elia from KB (if Gerold wasn't there, they could have raped and killed her, not only kissed her, and stole some jewellery from her).

Was it stated anywhere, that Arthur got sent to deal with KB, because at that time Gerold was wounded? Or is it possible, that Gerold got wounded by KB much earlier, while Elia was still unwed to Rhaegar? And the reason why Gerold wasn't sent to deal with KB, with Barristan and Arthur, is some other reason, not his wound (that happened years ago)? I don't remember exact sequence of those events.

I just don't see a reason, for Elia Martell to travel thru Kingswood, when she was Rhaegar's wife, because she had a pretty tight schedule, with all those pregnancies.

They got married in early 280, and went to Dragonstone, where they were staying for entire duration of her pregnancy, and for at least 6 more months afterwards. So they went to King's Landing not earlier than in the middle of April of 281. Seems that they were staying at KL, until tournament at Harrenhal, that had happened in the last two months of 281, and in December of 281 Elia gave birth to Aegon, back at Dragonstone. The Kingswood Brotherhood got dealt with months prior tournament at Harrenhal. Because after Jaime got knighted by Arthur, he went to KL, where he and Cersei decided that Jaime should join Kingsguard.

Why (and to where) would Elia be traveling thru Kingswood, when she was Rhaegar's wife? In 280-282 she was either pregnant, or breastfeeding her babies. It wasn't mentioned, that when Elia was attacked by KB, that her child/children or her husband was with her. Also, as the wife of the Crown Prince, if she did needed to travel somewhere, she would have been given a better protection than the old Gerold Hightower (who became a Lord Commander of Kingsguards back in 259). 

It makes more sense, if at the time, when Elia was attacked by KB, she and Rhaegar were still unmarried. That's why she was going to some random places, without proper escort, and got attacked by outlaws (possibly she and Oberyn came to Storm's End via ship from Dorne. After tournament Oberyn returned home alone, sulking because of his defeat. But Elia had stayed, and went via land, thru Kingswood, from Storm's End to King's Landing, where she was intending to visit royal court. Could be, that it was on Rhaegar's invitation. Another reason, why Oberyn didn't went, because it was Rhaegar, who defeated him).

If it was the Crown Prince's wife, who got attacked by KB, and not a mere Dornish Princess (what Elia was prior her marriage to Rhaegar), then after that attack, the royal family would have sent an entire army to go thru Kingswood, to deal with those outlaws (because attacking a member of royal family, by paranoid Aerys would have been seen, as a personal insult, even though he himself disliked his Dornish daughter-in-law). But because the party, in which Jaime went to Kingswood, went there merely because KB kidnapped squire of Lord Crackehall, and they were going to buy him out, it means, that they were sent there not in retaliation for that attack on Elia. Sinse early 280, and until at least April of 281, Elia was with Rhaegar at Dragonstone. Then she was with her baby and her husband at King's Landing (where and why would she go anywhere without them in this period of time?). Then, in late 281, when Elia was already heavily pregnant, they went to Harrenhal. Considering her state, and Aerys' state, most likely, the royal family went to Harrenhal via ship. From Blackwater Bay, up Blackwater Rush to God's Eye lake, on shore of which is standing Harrenhal. That takes only 2 days, while land-route at least 14.

The only time, when Elia could have been attacked by KB, is prior her marriage. And considering that Gerold got wounded, when he was saving Elia from KB, it means, that Gerold wasn't with Barristan and Arthur, when they defeated KB, for some other reason, because by that time his wound would have been already healed. Maybe, the reason was a recent death of Harlan Grandison. Gerold was held back at KL, because he, as Lord Commander, had more duties than any other member of KG, including looking for a replacement, and until then doing work of 2. Or my previous guess is correct, and Gerold most of the time was with Rhaegar, spying after him on Aerys' order. That's why he wasn't at Kingswood, when KB was defeated.

Edited by Megorova

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

If it's a plot point, he'd answer like he did with the question of Sansa's memory of a kiss from the Hound. Here, he literally provides that he made an error and then figures out a reason for the error, namely Barristan's memory not being what it once was.

You're making much out of nothing.

See I was just looking at it in a way that going off the text, technically GRRM didn't make a mistake if it was Steffon's funeral tourney and Hightower named it such for that reason. 

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24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

"In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups."

 

Maybe Gerold was wounded in 278, when he was escorting Elia Martell from Storm's End, where she was attending that tournament with her brother. She wasn't Rhaegar's bride yet, but she was a royal princess, thus she got a royal escort/protection. Afterwards Gerold was unable to write for some time, and then, in 279, he was sent to Dorne to negotiate with Martells about possible marriage between Elia and Rhaegar. And they (Targaryens) had sent specifically Gerold, because 1. he was a Dornishman, and 2. he did saved Elia from KB (if Gerold wasn't there, they could have raped and killed her, not only kissed her, and stole some jewellery from her).

 

Gerold Hightower is not Dornish. Getting basic facts wrong doesn't really help with extra-crackpot theories.

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17 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Gerold Hightower is not Dornish. Getting basic facts wrong doesn't really help with extra-crackpot theories.

Ok, not Dornish (I actually know that). Though Oldtown is much closer to Sunspear than King's Landing, both geographically and culturally. At that time other Kingsguards were Arthur Dayne, Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy, Jonothor Darry, Oswell Whent, and Harlan Grandison. Arthur and Lewyn would have been a bad choice, as representatives of Targaryens at Martell court (too close to Martells, to fully be on Aerys' side). Barristan and Harlan are both from Dornish Marches, and marcher lords were not a big fans of Dornishmen, so also not a good choice (for the opposite reason) to be sent for negotianions about marriage alliance between Martells and Targaryens. Darry and Whent are from Riverlands, far from Dorne and had nothing in common with Martells. While Gerold (even if not Dornish) is a southron, same as Martells, and Hightowers never fought against Martells, and Oberyn for some time served at the Citadel, so at least Gerold would have had a common acquaintances with him. So, he was the best choice, to be sent as an envoy to Martells. So, despite my small mistake, there are still two reasons for Targaryens to send specifically Gerold to negotiate with Martells - 1. him possibly saving Elia (prior 280), and 2. him being a (neutral) southerner.

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Posted (edited)

The only sourse of information that the Kingswood Brotherhood supposedly attacked Elia Martell, and Ulmer wounded Gerold Hightower, is Ulmer himself. And he could have lied. About both things.

Or he could have been wrong. Maybe a woman, that he thought to be a Dornish princess, was actually not a princess, just a rich highborn lady from the south. Maybe it was Jeyne Swann, not Elia Martell.

So could be that Ulmer did wounded Gerold Hightower (or not), and kissed and robed Jeyne Swann, and then she was saved by Barristan and Arthur. Neither Barristan, nor Jaime never mentioned/thought that Gerold got wounded by KB, so maybe it never happened. If the girl was not Elia, then there's no time restriction, for when that attack could have happened.

If that was Elia, then the most likely time frame of attack is prior 280, before her marriage with Rhaegar. And the reason why Elia at that time was passing thru Kingswood could be her visit to Storm's End, when there was held that tournament. That could have happened before Steffon Baratheon went to Volantis, either in 278, or even earlier, though for Robert to participate in that tournament he had to be already knighted. If that tournament was held in 278, then it could have been in celebration of Robert's 16th birthday, and a sort of a farewell party for Steffon, who was going to Volantis.

If the girl was not Elia, but Jeyne Swann, then there's zero reasons to connect her traveling to that tournament held at Storm's End. Unlike for Elia, there was no reason for Jeyne to be present at that tournament. Elia's husband (or future husband) and her brother both were participating in that tournament, so she, most likely, was also there. Though if the girl attacked by KB was not Elia, then the tournament could have happened in any time between 276 and late 281. It could have been tournament held in honor of already dead Steffon, held by his son. For example, if tournament happened in 281, prior the one at Harrenhal, then Rhaegar had attended it alone, without Elia. And at that tournament had defeated Simon Toyne. So afterwards Simon wanted to get revenge, was spying after Rhaegar, saw him interacting with a young southern-looking noble woman, dressed like a princess, so he thought that that woman was Rhaegar's wife, Dornish princess. So then he went with the rest of KB after that woman, and robed her. Only that woman was Jeyne Swann, and not Elia Martell. And then he got killed by Barristan Selmy. And the story about Ulmer wounding Gerold Hightower was a lie. Or Ulmer mistook Gerold with someone else, same as Simon mistook Jeyne for Elia. Besides Ulmer, no one else ever mentioned that story, not Jaime, not Barristan, not one of Martells, not Jon Connington, all of whom knew Elia.

If the timing of tournament at Storm's End is not tied to Elia Martell, then it could have been held in any year, prior or already after Steffon's death, even in 281.

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Ran said:

You're making much out of nothing.

Perhaps, but then we'd have nothing to discuss. ;)

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

"In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups."

That old Ulmer is alive and kicking at the Wall. He was still repeating his story near the end of Dance. Perhaps we'll hear about him again in Winds?

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe Gerold was wounded in 278, when he was escorting Elia Martell from Storm's End, where she was attending that tournament with her brother. She wasn't Rhaegar's bride yet, but she was a royal princess, thus she got a royal escort/protection. Afterwards Gerold was unable to write for some time, and then, in 279, he was sent to Dorne to negotiate with Martells about possible marriage between Elia and Rhaegar. And they (Targaryens) had sent specifically Gerold, because 1. he was a Dornishman, and 2. he did saved Elia from KB (if Gerold wasn't there, they could have raped and killed her, not only kissed her, and stole some jewellery from her).

Ser Arthur led the detachment, because Ser Gerold was injured, so the attack on Elia and the detachment were close together in time and shortly before the Harrenhal Tourney. Jaime was knighted by Arthur on the field after the Kingswood Brotherhood was defeated. He stopped briefly at Kings Landing to see his sister and then went to Casterly Rock before heading towards Harrenhal for the tourney, and Jaime was still 15. The World Book places the tourney during the False Spring which occurred the last two months of 281. So both the attack on Elia and the detachment led by Arthur were earlier in that same year. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

A gift you want desperately, wench, and can never have. "I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me."

Jaime was yet 15 when he became a Kingsguard:

Quote

Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood Brotherhood as squire to Lord Summer Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Ser Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard, for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Aerys II Targaryen. During the Sack of King's Landing, slew King Aerys II at the foot of the Iron Throne. Thereafter known as the "Kingslayer." Pardoned for his crime by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought his sister the Lady Cersei Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Champion in the tourney held at King's Landing on the occasion of their wedding.


Here is the passage where Jaime read the White Book:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Ser Barristan Selmy had preceded Jaime as Lord Commander. The shield atop his page showed the arms of House Selmy: three stalks of wheat, yellow, on a brown field. Jaime was amused, though unsurprised, to find that Ser Barristan had taken the time to record his own dismissal before leaving the castle.

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age.

The earlier part of Ser Barristan's storied career had been entered by Ser Gerold Hightower in a big forceful hand. Selmy's own smaller and more elegant writing took over with the account of his wounding on the Trident.

 

This passage states that Gerold wrote the entry about Lord Steffon's Tourney and placed it after the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood, which certainly must be out of order. Later on when Barristan was with Dany he said this about Rhaegar:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

"He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed.

"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."

"Was he the champion, then?"

The White Book states that Barristan unhorsed Jason Mallister at Steffon's tourney, but then he also tells Dany that Rhaegar unhorsed Jason Mallister. I don't claim to know jousting rules, but I thought once you were unhorsed you were out of the competition? Also, the way that he phrases how the mystery knight turned out to be Simon Toyne makes it sound like he was already a known outlaw prior to being unmasked, but then again he could just mean that later on Simon became famous as the leader of the KWB. Lastly, the comment about Rhaegar being "young" when he competed at Storms End hints at a tourney further in the past.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

If that was Elia, then the most likely time frame of attack is prior 280, before her marriage with Rhaegar. And the reason why Elia at that time was passing thru Kingswood could be her visit to Storm's End, when there was held that tournament. That could have happened before Steffon Baratheon went to Volantis, either in 278, or even earlier, though for Robert to participate in that tournament he had to be already knighted. If that tournament was held in 278, then it could have been in celebration of Robert's 16th birthday, and a sort of a farewell party for Steffon, who was going to Volantis.

I think it's possible that Elia was attacked after she recovered from delivering Rhaenys, but that would entail sailing from Dragonstone to Dorne to visit her family and then sailing from Dorne to Storms End and finishing the rest of the return to Kings Landing up the Kingsroad and through the Kingswood.

I may be talking myself out of this crackpot, but I also think I'm tired right now and need to revisit this later. Goodnight all.

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't claim to know jousting rules, but I thought once you were unhorsed you were out of the competition?

Based on The Mystery Knight, it seems that if the defeated knight have money to pay ransom for his horse and armor, then he can continue participating in tournament. When Dunk was defeated by Underleaf, he wanted to borrow back his horse and armor, and to try again, and then, in case if he would have won, he was promising to Underleaf to pay a ranson for the horse and armor. If Underleaf would have allowed him to take his horse back, Dunk was intending to continue. Thus, getting defeated once, is not yet the end, if you have money for ransom.

For example, at that tournament at Storm's End, Oberyn Martell was unhorsed twice, by Rhaegar and  by Barristan.

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think it's possible that Elia was attacked after she recovered from delivering Rhaenys, but that would entail sailing from Dragonstone to Dorne to visit her family and then sailing from Dorne to Storms End and finishing the rest of the return to Kings Landing up the Kingsroad and through the Kingswood.

Besides Elia, we can also use Oberyn to figure out, when exactly did that tournament happened. Because since Oberyn was 16, he was sent first to Oldtown (where he temporarely joined Citadel, and forged six links. Or it (links) could have happened later, already after Elia's death), then to Lys, and then he was sent as a ward to House Yronwood.

In 271 or 272 in Oldtown he fathered Obara Sand, whose mother was a whore at Oldtown. In 274 or 275 he had a daughter, Nymeria Sand, whose mother was a noblewoman from Volantis (Volantis is not too far from Lys, so probably this child Oberyn fathered when he was in Lys).

According to ASOIAF-Wikia, Oberyn was born in 257 or 258, so he was 16 in 273 or 274. It seems that he fathered his first child, Obara Sand, whose mother was a whore at Oldtown, when he and his mother and Elia were traveling all over Westeros, looking for marriage prospects for Elia. They did visited Oldtown, sometime prior their visit to Casterly Rock, in 273, when Tyrion was born, and Oberyn said that at that time he was 14 or 15 years old. In 300 Obara is 28 years old, which means that she was born either in 271 or 272. So, most likely, Oberyn was at Oldtown in 272, there he conceived Obara, she was born later that same year, and the next year Oberyn visited Casterly Rock, which was the last castle in their itinerary. Later in 273 he turned 16 (if he was born in 257), or he turned 16 in 274 (if he was born in 257), and that's when he was sent to Oldtown, from where he sailed to Lys, and fathered Nymeria. In 300 she is 25 years old, so she was born either in 274 or 275. Oberyn's next daughter, Tyene, is 23 years old in 300, so she was born in 276 or 277. Tyene's mother was septa, once to visit her she went from Water Gardens and crossed river Mander. So it seems, that her mother was living at Oldtown, and Oberyn fathered Tyene during his return trip from Lys thru Oldtown, and then went to Yronwood. Seems that Oberyn participater in that tournament at Storm's End, when he was ward of Yronwoods. Oberyn's next child, Sarella Sand, whose mother was a trader captain of the Feathered Kiss, was 19 in 300, thus was born in 280 or 281, and at that time Oberyn left Westeros for the second time, and went to Free Cities and Disputed Lands, and joined Second Sons, and then formed his own sellswords company. He was away from Westeros at the time of Robert's Rebellion. He had returned sometime in 284 or 285. His next daughter, Elia Sand, whose mother is Ellaria Sand, bastard-daughter of Harmen Ulmer, Lord of Hellholt (castle in southern Dorne), was born either in 285 or 286 (in 300 she is 14 years old).

 

So, based on information known about Oberyn, and on ages of his children, there's a window 276-281, when Oberyn was at Westeros, and could have participated in that tournament at Storm's End.

271-272 Obara born at Oldtown, in 273 Oberyn visited Casterly Rock, 274-275 Nymeria born in Lys, 276-277 Tyene born in Oldtown, 280-281 Sarella born not in Westeros.

Robert Baratheon was born in 262. In 271-275 he was 9-13 years old, in 276-277 - 14-15, so, most likely, he took part in that tournament between Tyene's conceivement and Sarella's conceivement. Sarella could have been both conceived and born in 281. If Oberyn participated in that tournament prior he left Westeros for the second time, then the tournament happened in early 281, that's the latest possible date - prior Sarella's conception. And the earliest possible date is 275, that's if Tyene Sand was conceived at Oldtown in 275, after Oberyn retuned from his first trip to Essos, and was born later in 276. Though it's unlikely, that 13 years old Robert participated in that tournament, thus, most likely, that tournament happened later, closer to 281.

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)

I love it when two threads in the forum come together in my mind to suggest a new insight into ASOIAF. This discussion strikes me as connected to the terrific catch by By Odin's Beard about probable Carl Sagan / astronomy influences on GRRM.

You really have to read the other OP to get the full benefit of the discovery, but I am fascinated to realize that the Night's Watch brother named Ulmer, who was sentenced to The Wall for his participation in the Kingswood Brotherhood, might be an embodiment of the Thief who is also the Red Wanderer. @By Odin's Beard follows up with additional fascinating interpretations of Westeros legends and how GRRM might have been inspired by earth astrology and astronomy.

GRRM uses many indirect techniques to make "heirs" for historical or legendary characters: In this case, I think Ulmer is an "heir" of the Kingswood Brotherhood - one of the few identified survivors still in the series. (Other examples of weird "heirs": Ser Dontos is sort of a survivor of House Darklyn, even though he is more directly a descendant of some Darklyn in-laws. The Tyrell family occupies the seat of Garth Greenhands, even though it was the House Gardner seat for many generations. The Blackfyres become heirs of Aegon IV because the king gives Daemon his sword; but Daeron becomes the Targaryen heir because he was born to Queen Naerys after she married the king.)

Ulmer is a skilled archer. I've been trying to figure out the symbolism of archers because I think they are important. Again, the astronomy connection in the other thread offered a new approach. If Ulmer is like the "Thief" aka the "Red Wanderer," which seems to have some qualities of the planet Mars but which may also be a source of comets in the Westeros system, maybe the shooting of arrows is symbolic of comets, also known as shooting stars. (We can be fairly certain that GRRM draws on poetry for inspiration, and there is a line by William Blake in a creation myth about tigers: "And when the stars threw down their spears, and watered heaven with their tears, did he smile his work to see? Did he who made the lamb make thee?" I love that line about the stars throwing down spears, and it could have inspired GRRM to imagine stars as archers, especially when they are shooting arrows from the top of the Wall.)

But what does all of this have to do with Simon Toyne, the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood outlaw group, and his timeline?

My thinking is that one characteristic of comets is that they return. We have three Toynes at three significant moments in ASOIAF:

1) Terrence Toyne - A Kingsguard member who becomes romantically involved with the King's Mistress, Bethany Bracken.

2) Simon Toyne - Outlaw of the Kingswood

3) Myles Toyne - A past leader of the Golden Company sellsword group.

Long stories short:

  • Toynes come into conflict with Targaryens.
  • The Toynes are a series, and should be analyzed in context with each other.
  • Kingsguard members have a special ability to cross barriers and/or move between the Otherworld and the mainstream world.
  • The affair between Ser Terrence and Bethany Bracken is symbolic of opening the door to the Otherworld. (This has to do with Pennytree and the hills known as Missy's Teats / Barbara's Teats, disputed by Houses Blackwood and Bracken.)
  • The activities of the outlaw band in the Kingswood has to do with the Azor Ahai legend and the Free Folk tale about the Thief in the Moon Maid (read that @By Odin's Beard Carl Sagan thread and think of Simon Toyne and Ulmer simultaneously as the Thief / Azor Ahai in their attacks on Moon Maid Elia Martell).
  • The living Myles Toyne is recalled only in flashback, but his skull is still present in the story, when Jon Connington seeks it out on its post at the camp of the Golden Company. The idea of the Golden Company is that exiled leaders of the group will eventually "return" to Westeros if their gold-encrusted skulls are carried into battle during the eventual combat the Golden Company will bring to Westeros.
  • "Returning," as I mentioned, is what comets do. The skulls of the leaders of the Golden Company are symbolic comets.

So Ulmer embodies a comet in one way, and the gold skull of Myles Toyne embodies a comet in a different way. The Toyne sigil, a flying heart, may be a clue that every Toyne is a comet, flying through the sky while carrying something alive or meaningful or life-embodying. What kind of comet is Simon Toyne, then? He may embody a version of sword-forging Azor Ahai, the same old legendary figure returning in a new form.

King Aerys is in conflict with Simon Toyne because the king is a divine right, dragon-loving kind of guy, and he does not recognize an Azor Ahai reborn outside of his family line. Remember how different people saw the comet in different ways, comparing it to a flaming sword, a dragon, Mormont's torch, an omen for Joffrey's ascendancy, etc? Aerys would probably reject any of these symbolic "comet" returns that are not clear and literal Targaryen dragons, and Toyne is not that kind of comet.

Arthur Dayne has all of the right magic to be able to negotiate the situation in the Kingswood, persuading the King to guarantee better conditions for the small folk so the small folk will stop protecting Simon Toyne. Specifically, what kind of magic does Dayne have? He is a member of the Kingsguard, so he can open doors. He also carries the sword Dawn, and Dawn is another way of saying "Lightbringer." And Dawn is made from a meteorite, the material at the head of a comet.

The confusion around Simon Toyne's timeline may reflect this theme of the returning comet. He seemed to be dead but then he "returns" to joust in a tournament. He is killed by Ser Barristan but then defeated by Rhaegar. It could make some sense if you think of him as an allegorical character who embodies a comet or a Red Wanderer planet with an orbit that appears erratic from the vantage point of another orbiting planet.

Tourney wins and losses are major sources of foreshadowing information. I believe that tourneys may take place in the Otherworld, giving them a magical quality that can either predict or shape the future. Reread the passages where Dunk fords a stream to reach Ashford Meadow each day, for instance, or Meera's description of the Little Crannogman's journey to reach Harrenhal. Sansa's journey down the Giant's Lance at the Eyrie may also depict a special journey into an Otherworld, preparing her for the tourney that is planned in the next book.

(There is also a smiler / slayer motif that seems to be connected to Ser Barristan's slaying of Simon Toyne in close proximity to the Smiling Knight. In the current generation, Theon is identified as a smiler and Sam Tarly and Jaime are called slayers.)

I don't think GRRM is admitting that it is an error or making an excuse for a continuity issue in the SSM about Simon Toyne. And he is not lying about anything. Ser Barriston is an unbelievable guy in many senses of the word, jousting as a mystery knight at age ten, engaging Prince Duncan (another symbolic, indirect heir; this time of Ser Duncan the Tall as well as Aegon V), single-handedly freeing Aerys from Duskendale, continuing in active service and combat into his advanced old age. I don't think Ser Barristan was either conscious of making a timeline error or that he was feeble-minded in mentioning Simon Toyne's presence after he was already dead. Ser Barristan is a Kingsguard guy and quite familiar with impossible, royal and magical things. Ser Barristan is, himself, a living legend.

I think the apparent continuity error is a reflection of the Toyne / comet return in combination with the Otherworld and magical spaces in which tournaments take place. You can put it under the heading of "unreliable narrator" if you like, but I think it's part of a larger allegory and a helpful clue in interpreting the Azor Ahai legend. 

Edited by Seams

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It all makes sense, if there really was two tournaments at Storm's End, and events happened in this order:

1. According to Barristan Selmy, when Rhaegar was young, he participated in the tournament at Storm's End, where he defeated the mystery knight, that turned out to be Simon Toyne, leader of KB.

ASOS, Dany IV: " "When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."

"Was he the champion, then?"

"No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt."

Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed."

 

Maybe the winner of that first tournament, that unknown Kingsguard, was not Barristan, but someone else. Could be that Barristan didn't participated in that first tournament (or he didn't won any tilts), that's why there's no record about it, in his entry in the White Book, there's a record only about the second tournament, that was held several years later, at the same castle, and in this one Barristan did participated and won. And in both of those tournaments had participated Rhaegar, Oberyn, and Jason Mallister. Additionally in first tournament had participated Steffon Baratheon, Arthur Dayne, and Simon Toyne, and in second tournament participated Robert Baratheon, Leyton Hightower, Jon Connington, and Barristan Selmy.

 

That event (first tournament) happened while Rhaegar and Elia were still unmarried, and Steffon Baratheon was still alive. So, it was not later that in 278 (year of Steffon's death, it's also the year, when Robert turned 16, which is the age of maturity at Westeros, so maybe that tournament was held, as a birthday party for Robert).

The mystery knight was unmasked, but they let him go, because seizing him then, would be breaking rules of hospitality.

It's likely, that the KB was active for several years, prior 281, when they were finally captured.

2. Gerold Hightower was wounded by Ulmer, after that first tournament at Storm's End, when he was escorting princess Elia, from there to KL.

There's zero information from Jaime, that Gerold was absent during their raid on KB in 281, when Jaime fought against them, because supposedly Gerold was injured by Ulmer, shortly prior that raid: ASOS, Jaime II - "I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield."

Thus, Gerold was wounded in 278, KB attacked Elia Martell in 278, when she was still unmarried to Rhaegar.

3. In 281 Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy were sent to deal with KB. They met Lord Crackehall and Jaime, and helped them. Jaime fought with Smiling Knight, then Arthur also fought against him, killed him, and then knighted Jaime. Barristan killed Simon Toyne. Ulmer was seized and sent to The Wall. The rest of KB's members either were killed, or managed to escape. This happened in 281, months prior tournament at Harrenhal.

4. Then Barristan participated in tournament at Oldtown, where he unmasked the mystery knight, who turned out to be the Bastard of Uplands.

5. Then Barristan participated and won in the second tournament at Storm's End, and defeated then Robert Baratheon, Oberyn Martell, Leyton Hightower, Jon Connington, Jason Mallister, and Rhaegar Targaryen.

If that is so, then there is no inconsistency between what Barristan said to Dany is ASOS, and what is recorded in his entry in the White Book. Rhaegar did won against Simon Toyne at the tournament at Storm's End, only it happened not during the same tournament at Storm's End, which is recorded in Barristan's entry in the White Book.

P.S. If Barristan later admitted, that he was that Kingsguard, that had defeated Rhaegar in the final tilt, then he did mixed both of those tournaments, the one in which Simon Toyne was unmasked by Rhaegar, and the one in which Barristan won against Rhaegar. Though, in this case, how could be explained, that there is no record in Barristan's entry in the White Book, about his participation in that earlier tournament? Thus, it's GRRM's mistake, not Barristan's bad memory. If that second tournament happened already after Simon Toyne was killed by Barristan, then how could Barristan be mixing together that tournament with the one that had happened earlier, if at the time of the later tournament, Simon was already dead? So, either Barristan didn't won any tilts in the first tournament, and thus his participation in that tournament isn't recorder, or GRRM made a mistake and blamed it on Barristan.

Edited by Megorova

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17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Thus, Gerold was wounded in 278, KB attacked Elia Martell in 278, when she was still unmarried to Rhaegar.

3. In 281 Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy were sent to deal with KB. 

This part does not make sense. A Kingsguard would never escort Elia in 278 two years prior to her marriage to Rhaegar, thus the attack was at least after 280. Plus Aerys would not wait years to deal with bandits that injured one of his Kingsguard. And lastly, Arthur led the detachment specifically because Gerold was injured. It doesn’t take years for a hand to heal.

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3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

And lastly, Arthur led the detachment specifically because Gerold was injured.

Where is that written?

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This part does not make sense. A Kingsguard would never escort Elia in 278 two years prior to her marriage to Rhaegar

Maybe, he wasn't exactly specifically esorting her, not in official capacity. Maybe, it just happened, that they both were going from Storm's End to King's Landing, and thus ended up going there together.

Or he was just passing by, when Elia got attacked by KB, and interfered.

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Plus Aerys would not wait years to deal with bandits that injured one of his Kingsguard.

It's unlikely that he cared so much about his servants. If one of his KG got into some skirmish, while he was on his way to KL, and got injured because of that, when he was not on official duty, then it wasn't any interest to Aerys. Furthermore, KB were able to get away for many years with what they did, because they were supported by smallfalk. Thus, it was hard to get them, even if Aerys did wanted to off them.

Edited by Megorova

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Where is that written?

Maybe, he wasn't exactly specifically esorting her, not in official capacity. Maybe, it just happened, that they both were going from Storm's End to King's Landing, and thus ended up going there together.

Or he was just passing by, when Elia got attacked by KB, and interfered.

It's unlikely that he cared so much about his servants. If one of his KG got into some skirmish, while he was on his way to KL, and got injured because of that, when he was not on official duty, then it wasn't any interest to Aerys. Furthermore, KB were able to get away for many years with what they did, because they were supported by smallfalk. Thus, it was hard to get them, even if Aerys did wanted to off them.

The detachment that Aerys sent out, led by Arthur, was in response to the attack on Elia. Rhaegar and Elia’s betrothal was announced in 279 and they married in 280:

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

Early in the year 279 AC, Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, was formally betrothed to Princess Elia Martell, the delicate young sister of Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne. They were wed the following year, in a lavish ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing,

 

While not explicitly detailed, Arthur led because Gerold was injured. Gerold was the Lord Commander so the command should have been his. Logistically and logically it doesn’t make any sense to place the two events several years apart, not to mention that Elia wasn’t yet betrothed to Rhaegar in 278.

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The detachment that Aerys sent out, led by Arthur, was in response to the attack on Elia.

In the books it was nowhere stated, that that detachment was led by Arthur Dayne, because at that time Gerold was supposedly injured.

It is unknown, when exactly Gerold Hightower was wounded, and whether he was really wounded by Ulmer, whether Ulmer had actually met Gerold. It's what Ulmer himself said, that he wounded Gerold and robed Elia, but no specifications when did that happened. Could be that he lied.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Kingswood_Brotherhood

There is written:

"The Kingswood Brotherhood was an infamous outlaw organization during the reign of King Aerys II. Operating out of the Kingswood, the Brotherhood gained recognition by kidnapping several nobles and evading early attempts to capture them. Ultimately, they became such a nuisance that King Aerys sent a detachment of soldiers led by notable members of the Kingsguard to destroy them. Lord Sumner Crakehall and his two squires, Jaime Lannister and Merrett Frey, were also part of the retinue.

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Ser Gerold Hightower was injured in an earlier raid by the Brotherhood, when they attacked Princess Elia Martell's escort through the woods. The king's detachment was led by Ser Arthur Dayne instead."

 

but there's no references/links on the bottom of the page. Thus, that (above, in bold text) is just the poster's own opinion, not facts.

This is all that was written in the books about KB:

Spoiler

AFFC, Jaime IV - ""Good luck getting answers then," said Jaime. "If you want their help, you need to make them love you. That was how Arthur Dayne did it, when we rode against the Kingswood Brotherhood. He paid the smallfolk for the food we ate, brought their grievances to King Aerys, expanded the grazing lands around their villages, even won them the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer during the autumn. The forest folk had looked to Toyne to defend them, but Ser Arthur did more for them than the Brotherhood could ever hope to do, and won them to our side. After that, the rest was easy.""

 

" "When I was a squire I told myself I'd be the man to slay the Smiling Knight."

"The Smiling Knight?" She sounded lost. "Who was that?"

The Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big but twice as mad." "

 

""The Sword of the Morning slew the Smiling Knight, my lady. Ser Arthur Dayne, a better knight than me.""

 

ASOS, Dany IV  - ""When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day.""

ASOS, Jaime II - ""I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield. It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around. So spare me your envy. It was the gods who neglected to give you a cock, not me.""

ASOS, Sam II - "Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups."

"Every man at Castle Black had heard Ulmer's tales of the great outlaw band of yore; of Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, Oswyn Longneck the Thrice-Hanged, Wenda the White Fawn, Fletcher Dick, Big Belly Ben, and all the rest."

ADOS, Jon X - "That old rogue Ulmer of the Kingswood proved as adept at dancing as he was at archery, no doubt regaling his partners with his tales of the Kingswood Brotherhood, when he rode with Simon Toyne and Big Belly Ben and helped Wenda the White Fawn burn her mark in the buttocks of her highborn captives."

ASOS, Arya XII - "Anguy would teach her to use a bow, and she could ride with Gendry and be an outlaw, like Wenda the White Fawn in the songs."

ASOS, Epilogue - "No good ever came from dealing with outlaws. That vile little bitch Wenda had burned a fawn into the cheek of his arse while she had him captive."

"As a boy he'd been packed off to Crakehall to serve his mother's family as a page. When old Lord Sumner had made him a squire, everyone had assumed he would be Ser Merrett in no more than a few years, but the outlaws of the Kingswood Brotherhood had pissed on those plans. While his fellow squire Jaime Lannister was covering himself in glory, Merrett had first caught the pox from a camp follower, then managed to get captured by a woman, the one called the White Fawn. Lord Sumner had ransomed him back from the outlaws, but in the very next fight he'd been felled by a blow from a mace that had broken his helm and left him insensible for a fortnight."

ASOS, Jaime VIII - "Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former."

"Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood Brotherhood as squire to Lord Summer Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Ser Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard, for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Aerys II Targaryen. During the Sack of King's Landing..."

"And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead."

No mentioning, why that group was led by Arthur and not Gerold. No mentioning, when exactly was Gerold wounded. Furthermore, the only source of information, about Gerold being wounded, is Ulmer, and he could have lied about that.

Info about that in The World Book, Aerys II:

"At five-and-ten, Ser Jaime Lannister was already a knight—an honor he had received from the hand of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, whom many considered to be the realm’s most chivalrous warrior. Jaime’s knighthood had been won during Ser Arthur’s campaign against the outlaws known as the Kingswood Brotherhood, and none could doubt his prowess."

Just because it was Arthur, who was leading that campaign, it doesn't mean, that the reason, why it was him and not Gerold, is because Gerold was supposedly injured. We don't even know for sure, whether Gerold really was injured, whether Ulmer really have met Gerold, and not just made that story up. But even if that story of Ulmer's is true, there's still zero information about, when exactly did happened that attack on Elia, and whether the Brotherhood was obliterated shortly after that, or whether that happened years after the initial attack.

 

What is written about KB in ASOIAF-Wikipedia, is without links/references. Thus, that info is speculations, not facts!

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

While not explicitly detailed, Arthur led because Gerold was injured.

Speculations.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Gerold was the Lord Commander so the command should have been his.

Speculations.

If we'll be using the same kind of reasoning, then it was supposed to be Gerold Hightower, who should have sneaked into Duskendale, to save King Aerys, during his captivity. But instead it was Barristan Selmy.

Let's not forget, that Gerold became Lord Commander in 259, 22 years prior tournament at Harrenhal, and 25 years prior his death in the end of Robert's Rebellion.

Thus, it's possible, that it wasn't Gerold, who was leading that campaign, but not because Gerold at that time could have been injured (or not injured), but because that assigment was already too strenuous for someone of Gerold's age, thus the lead of that operation was given to Arthur.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Logistically and logically it doesn’t make any sense to place the two events several years apart

It does makes sense, if at the time of that attack on Elia, she wasn't yet Aerys' daughter-in-law, or even one of prospects to become Rhaegar's bride. If that attack had happened prior death of Steffon Baratheon, then Aerys wouldn't give a shit about Elia and her wellbeing, because prior failure of Steffon's mission, Elia was of no interest to Aerys.

The Kingswood Brotherhood and Simon Toyne were protected by smallfolk, because they supposedly were on the same side. And this, this took time, years maybe -

"He paid the smallfolk for the food we ate, brought their grievances to King Aerys, expanded the grazing lands around their villages, even won them the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer during the autumn. The forest folk had looked to Toyne to defend them, but Ser Arthur did more for them than the Brotherhood could ever hope to do, and won them to our side. After that, the rest was easy."

For example, the attack on Elia could have happened in the end of 278, and the Brotherhood was finished in the beginning of 281, then there's only a bit over two years between those events. It took some time for those outlaws to become Aerys' concern (maybe over a year after attack on Elia. He could have paid to that event certain attention, only after Elia became Rhaegar's wife. Thus, his retaliations began not earlier than in 280), then he sent Arthur to deal with them, and then it took Arthur possibly months and months to gain trust and support of the smallfolk, by going to the Kingswood and back to KL, and solving their problems by bringing them to Aerys' attention. Many trips, there and back. Some amount of time to make people trust him, and to share their worries with him. Some amount of time to convince Aerys to help those people. Time to go back, and to actually solve certain problem, after getting King's permission to do so. Months and months before those forestfolks were persuaded by Arthur, to hand out Simon and his people to Kingsguards.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

not to mention that Elia wasn’t yet betrothed to Rhaegar in 278.

It doesn't matter, that she wasn't yet married to Rhaegar. It wasn't necessary for her to be Rhaegar's wife, to be attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood.

Jeyne Swann wasn't Rhaegar's wife. Neither was her septa. Neither was Merrett Frey. Nevertheless they became victims of KB.

Just because Elia was saved by Gerold Hightower, it doesn't mean, that he was in her escort. He could have been accidentally present in the same area, when Elia was attacked by KB. He could have been just passing by, and wasn't in Elia's escort.

Also, it's possible, that he could have been in her escort, even if at that time she wasn't yet Rhaegar's wife or bride. Could be, that the both of them were present at the same event, at that first tournament at Storm's End (in 278), and later they both were going in the same direction, towards King's Landing. Thus, Gerold either got to escort Elia in his official capacity, as a Kingsguard (because she was a princess, and her trip to KL was unplanned, thus, she didn't had her own escort), or he was just going in the same direction, and on the way there, they were interacting. That's why he was there, when she was attacked.

Though it's also possible, that Ulmer made up that story. So, Elia was never robed by KB, and Gerold Hightower wasn't injured by them. And the reason, why it wasn't him, who was leading that campaign agains KB, is the same, as why it wasn't him, who was rescuing Aerys from Duskendale - Gerold was already too old for that sort of strenuous activity.

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