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ASOIAF vs A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms


namesarehard

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I think the differences are interesting. ASOIAF is more realistic. Sometimes no matter what anybody's trying to do, shit just happens. In A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Dunc isn't the smartest or the greatest warrior but he always manages to do what he thinks is right. It's more like some tale of chivalry. But it's told from his point of view, it's not just some maester's account or one of old Nan's stories or something.

Also, Brienne is carrying his shield now. What do you think is the significance of that?

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Wasn't confirmed that Brienne is his descendant? That might be the significance.

I’m not sure how that works, though. Did he knock up Lady Tarth during a visit? It had to have been a secret or else it would have been a huge scandal, especially if Dunk was already in the Kingsguard at the time. But wouldn’t anyone have noticed when the baby became a seven foot giant like their dad? Brienne herself is very tall, so it’s clear that massive height never left the Tarth genes.

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I don't believe it is confirmed, but given Brienne's height and Dunk's shield at Tarth it seems pretty likely. 

As for Dunk joining the Kingsguard, we know that he was a member after Egg was crowned at age thirty three, which means that Dunk was at least forty. He has plenty of time to get married and widowed. As his daughter probably got married to a Tarth it would be likely that her mother was highborn. 

A probable scenario would be Dunk eventually becoming one Maekar's household knights and getting it on with one Egg's sisters. Nature takes its course and in order to avoid the taint of bastard Maekar marries them. At some point the bride dies, Dunk gets free for the Kingsguard and the kid marries into Tarth, leading to Brienne a couple generations later. 

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Getting back to the original question, do we know why Brienne had a shield made with Dunk's design on it? Was his old Shield hanging on a wall somewhere at Castle Tarth?  I think there was something in TWOIAF or F&B that hinted at an answer, but don't recall the details.

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20 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Getting back to the original question, do we know why Brienne had a shield made with Dunk's design on it? Was his old Shield hanging on a wall somewhere at Castle Tarth?  I think there was something in TWOIAF or F&B that hinted at an answer, but don't recall the details.

From AFfC:

Quote

"Your door reminded me of an old shield I once saw in my father’s armory." She described the arms as best she could recall them.

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6 hours ago, James Steller said:

I’m not sure how that works, though. Did he knock up Lady Tarth during a visit? It had to have been a secret or else it would have been a huge scandal, especially if Dunk was already in the Kingsguard at the time. But wouldn’t anyone have noticed when the baby became a seven foot giant like their dad? Brienne herself is very tall, so it’s clear that massive height never left the Tarth genes.

TWoIaF gave us some small clues that might be hints in the right direction here. The first time Ser Duncan the Tall the Kingsguard is mentioned is in 236 AC during the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion - in the tease for the Third Rebellion there is no Dunk. Everybody else, but no Dunk. Which is odd since we can be reasonably certain that he will be there, too, if Egg is there.

That could imply that he is going to be a rather late addition to the Kingsguard and not some of those knights who join the KG in their twenties. Especially since Dunk has basically no reason or internal motivation to want a white cloak in the foreseeable future. He likes the women and he actually wants to get laid. And as a knight he might also seriously consider to marry and have children at one point.

The current personal of House Targaryen also has to be considered. I guess, one could see Dunk joining the KG if King Aerys I offered him a white cloak while Prince Rhaegel, Prince Aelor, and Princess Aelora were still his heirs (i.e. in 211-219 AC or so), but as soon as it became clear that the Iron Throne would not pass to Rhaegel and his children but rather to Maekar and his children, Dunk likely did his best to ensure that he never became a KG.

Because as KG of a King Maekar he would not only to have to interact with Daeron the Drunk and Aerion the Monstrous on a regular basis - he would also be in a master-servant/bodyguard relationship with these two while their father ruled the kingdom. And both Daeron and then Aerion were heirs to the Iron Throne (Daeron until his death at an unknown date, and then Aerion until he died in 232 AC). One cannot see Dunk wanting to protect a 'King Aerion' with his life, nor pretend he liked or respected his drunken older brother (one guesses they could become friends later on, but Dunk is not as stupid as to think Daeron the Drunk should ever be king - or could be a good one if he tried).

While Dunk and Maekar may eventually come to respect each other, I think the issue of Maekar's elder sons is going to prevent Dunk from ever entertaining to join the KG.

And then keep in mind that King Maekar dies in battle - meaning that there is a pretty good chance that a couple of KG died with him - which, in turn, could mean Aegon V had at least one spot to fill after his coronation - which might be when Ser Duncan the Tall was invested into the Kingsguard.

If we go along with the idea that Dunk was a late addition to the KG, then there is time for the man to marry and become a widower before he joins the Kingsguard.

And this is where the true TWoIaF hint enters into the story. In the section on the Stormlands it is claimed that the Tarths have rather recent and unspecified ties to the Targaryens - which is both very odd and a rather new information.

Now, we have both Dunk's arms in Evenfall Hall and we have unspecified ties to House Targaryen (which seem to be blood ties since such ties also are supposed to exist for the Tarths and the Durrandons and Baratheons).

People have suggested one of Egg's sisters did marry into House Tarth (we know both Daella and Rhae had children, but we don't yet know whether they married or who the father(s) of their children were). But this is not my guess. I think it is going to turn out that Dunk married Egg's older sister Daella - the one Egg himself was betrothed to marry. I think they had at least one child, a daughter, who married into House Tarth and became the mother of Lord Selwyn Tarth (Selwyn is born in 246-47 AC, so he could easily enough be a grandson of Dunk's).

The family tree of House Targaryen provides us with another hint there. It turned out that Princess Daella is actually older than Egg, not younger (as was pretty likely before since Aemon was already between Egg and Aerion). Daella being older than Egg makes her closer in age to both Egg ... and Aerion.

We know Egg is going to marry Betha Blackwood in 220 AC, despite being betrothed to Daella - and we know that Aerion Brightflame is not going to marry one of his sisters but rather his cousin Daenora and is going to have children only very late in life. Part of the reason why I think Dunk and Daella are going to marry is the fact that Dunk and Egg want to save Daella from a marriage with Aerion after Egg ends their betrothal and marries Betha. Another could, of course, be that they fall in love. Would be great irony if Dunk ended up with the sister Egg was supposed to marry.

The date of the marriage would, in my opinion, take place around the same time as Egg's marriage to Betha - in 220 AC, after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion was won. If Dunk played a crucial role there then King Aerys I may have been more than happy to grant the hand of his niece to this loyal man and hero. Daella certainly was a princess, but she was no a king's daughter. Not yet, at least.

Thus Dunk and Daella could have had a happy married life for a decade or so, until Daella eventually died and Dunk ended up joining the KG to help his old friend to rule and reform the Seven Kingdoms. Might even be that Dunk ends up being the petty lord/knight of Pennytree for a time, settling down in the village of his old master. It could then become a royal fief when the knight of Pennytree joins the Kingsguard (and his daughter marries the Lord of Tarth).

But that's all just speculation at this point.

I find the prospect of Dunk marrying and having a wife and (a) child(ren) much more interesting than him fathering just bastards. Although he also might do that. The fact that Dunk's arms are actually on a shield in the armory of Evenfall imply that Brienne is not some descendant of an illegitimate child of Dunk's.

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14 hours ago, James Steller said:

I’m not sure how that works, though. Did he knock up Lady Tarth during a visit? It had to have been a secret or else it would have been a huge scandal, especially if Dunk was already in the Kingsguard at the time. But wouldn’t anyone have noticed when the baby became a seven foot giant like their dad? Brienne herself is very tall, so it’s clear that massive height never left the Tarth genes.

Have no idea. Probably not as simple as that, but who really knows. 

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I think that Dunk's descendant is not a member of House Tarth. Out of Brienne's parents, I think, that it's her unknown mother, who is Duncan's descendant, and that shield belonged to her.

In my opinion, the mother was and still is a warrior, same as Brienne. Could be, that she was Wenda the White Fawn, ex-member of the Kingswood Brotherhood, and possibly a member of House Cafferen, whose castle, Fawnton, is located in Stormlands, not too far from Tarth. My guess, is that after Brienne's birth, she left Westeros, and now is using name Meris. She's a member of Windblown sellswords company in Essos, founded by Tattered Prince. Either Meris and Wenda is the same person or not, Meris has similar looks to Brienne's.

ADWD - "When Daario brought them forward, she saw that one of them was a woman, big and blond and all in mail. "Pretty Meris," her captain named her, though pretty was the last thing Dany would have called her. She was six feet tall and earless, with a slit nose, deep scars in both cheeks, and the coldest eyes the queen had ever seen." "Pretty Meris stood cradling a crossbow, her eyes as cold and dead as two grey stones." "Meris was raped half round the company. Not this company, true, but we need not mention that." "Pretty Meris frightened him. A Westerosi woman, but taller than he was, just a thumb under six feet. After twenty years amongst the free companies, there was nothing pretty about her, inside or out."

Brienne was born in 280. By 300 Meris has spent 20 years in Essos. The timing fits, if she gave birth to Brienne, and then went to Essos, and joined a sellswords company. Maybe she and Selwyn were not married. Brienne remembers that Selwyn had a new woman every year. Selwyn's son, Galladon, died aged 8, when Brienne was 4 years old, his two other daughters (Arianne and Alysanne) also died. It's likely, that Selwyn's wife died in labour, and when Galladon was 4 years old, Selwyn hooked up with Wenda/Meris. Maybe, he got captured by the Kingswood Brotherhood, and she raped him. And when later, it turned out, that she's pregnant, she gave the baby to Selwyn, in exchange for money. And she used that money to go to Essos, because she always wanted to be a warrior, and in Westeros it was not acceptable, thus instead she was an outlaw. Either before tha baby was born, Selwyn and Wenda/Meris did married, for the baby to be legitimate, or he later legitimized Brienne, or lied to everyone, that she is daughter of his wife. That's if the wife at that time was also pregnant, and later died together with her baby-daughter. Or something like that.

I think that Duncan the Tall was child of Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre. Could be, that the piece fo chipped garnet, that Dunk has (mentioned in two of three novels), is a piece of Blackfyre's pommel. Which means, that Brienne is also a Blackfyre.

There's a connection between Kingswood Brotherhood and Golden Company - thru two Toynes, Simon and Myles. Maybe, after leaving Westeros, at first Wenda joined Golden Company. But because Myles blamed her in his brother's death (if Simon was his brother), he ordered to his people to rape and mutilate her. She survived after that, and later joined The Windblown. And after what Myles did, he took a nickname - Blackheart. I know, that there's a black heart on a sigil of House Toyne, but it's not definite, that he took that nickname just because of the sigil. For example, Barristan's nickname is Baristan the Bold, not Barristan the three stalks of yellow wheat (like on the sigil of his House).

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Getting back to the OP, the D&E novellas are beautifully and concisely written. You can sense Martin's affection for Duncan. The character of Bloodraven and the Blackfyres were very well introduced in the Sworn Sword and fleshed out in the Mystery Knight. 

Hope he somehow finds the time to publish more D&E tales.. 

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