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Triskele

US Politics Cont'd: Our Mask of Sanity is Beginning to Slip

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Or Williamson's at least finally did at the end there, neh?  

Edited by Triskele

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LOL about Williamson.

@GrimTuesday:

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So your argument is Bernie is bad because he never ran with a D next to his name? What a trash take, I hope you enjoy watching all your precious D's sprinting as quickly as they can to align themselves with Bernie.

No, my original point was pretty clear - and very well phrased if I do say so myself - "It is particularly delicious that he built a career running as an outsider to Democratic institutions, then whined about being treated as an outsider to Democratic institutions when he ran for president."

If that's get you all up in arms, I really don't care.  It's the fact of the matter, I've watched Sanders my entire adult life.  He's a charlatan and a hypocrite.  So, I guess that's my point.

4 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

As for his agenda, do you really think anyone has any chance of passing anything through a Republican held Senate?

No, but at least the rest of them don't pretend they can like Bernie does and call for a "revolution," which most of the time is not responsible nor helpful. 

And give me a break about the fucking Overton window, I hate that shit.  First, that's not what it's called in political science, and we developed it way before Overton wrote his damn book.  One of my advisors helped develop a more formal model demonstrating movement from the status quo - or what the internet would call the "Overton window" - than Overton ever could have hoped to.  Second, the problem with Bernie's policies aren't because they're out of the ideological status quo.  It's because they're outside coherent policy and reality.

 

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https://relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/its-not-just-your-imagination-americans-are-getting-less-tolerant/

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Americans Are Getting Less Tolerant

In 2014, only 16 percent of Americans believed that “it should be permissible to turn away customers based on their sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or race.” In 2019, that number has nearly doubled to 30 percent.

The article says there's a partisan divide, but from my perspective double digits on this sort of intolerance in any populations is bad. So Democrats don't get a pass for being less intolerant.

I am afraid of what the stats in my country would be though. I have a feeling that growing intolerance isn't just limited to the USA.

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From the previous thread I was surprised by that tweet suggestion that Biden aids think he had a bad night.  Did he have something terrible in the early-going?  I jumped in about 1/3 in.  

Like I said earlier he seemed sharper than I expected (until one late answer where he stumbled a bit).  

When Harris brought her big attack which was legit and hard to defend against I thought he had a reasonable comeback even if I score the thing to Harris overall.  

Edited by Triskele

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

Has anyone considered the subtext that the "a friend" offer is only necessary because "an elf" is still so distasteful to the dwarf as to be utterly impossible even when death is on the line?  

It's like Legolas is making some calculation like "only prayer I have of getting out of here is if every last motherfucker goes berserk and dwarf here ain't going berserk over my elf ass but maybe if I trick it into thinking I'm a friend I can +16 strength and constitution it for this shit that's about to go down."  

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

Originally I wanted to make a reference to VEEP when Buddy Calhun asks Amy to talk nastily about politics to get him up. But I couldn't find a clip so I settled.

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Responding to @GrimTuesday 's response to me.

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Normally I just lurk in these threads, only pipping up occasionally, but where the heck did you get that Bernie hurt Hilary? He busted his ass campaigning for Hilary, and a higher percentage of Bernie voters voted for Clinton than Clinton voters voted for Obama. Bernie not conceding did not dissuade anyone from Hilary, Hilary lost because she was a deeply flawed candidate, and that is coming from someone who thought that she was easily one of the best qualified candidates ever to run for president.

I think Bernie stayed in the contest too long, he kept pushing the left agenda at a point where it hurt her campaign, and his assertions against the DMC (and Hillary) enforced the view that she was corrupt, untruthful and played with the elites only.  Which might very well be true, but having someone from her left harping on it hurt.  He also had a very vocal group of supporters who then opposed voting for under any circumstances.  

And I never said Hillary lost because of Bernie.  lost because of a range of factors (including that she was a bad campaigner, the FBI, russians, underestimating her opponent, getting sick) and with such a small margin of loss we'll never know what were the deciding factors (if there was any one singular one).  My criticism was not that Bernie made Clinton lose, but that he did (in my view) actions he knew would hurt her.  

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That is such a bullshit answer. Bernie ran in 2016 because he wanted to force a conversation, and why the fuck would you run as a third party in this system. Sanders has virtually always voted with the Dems, he caucuses with the Dems, and he embodies a left wing policy position better than trash like Joe Biden, who is a bought and paid for by the credit card industry, opposed busing, and has generally been a vile person. You're going to put more stock in party loyalty than actual policies? Literally anyone who is ideologically aligned should be able to run in either party's primary and receive the exact same support form the national party, Bernie wasn't robbed, Hilary was always going to be the nominee, but the party leadership should not be putting their thumbs on the scales for one candidate.

 

Nobody with any sense would run as a third party.  But IMO a party should have every right to say to someone who wasn't a democrat, ef off.  And someone who can join in simply because of the rules should not expect equal treatment.  Voting with the Dems, even getting endorsement from key Dems, is not being a Dem.  Whether or not you agree with Biden's policies, he's been operating within the Dem system for decades.  

But obviously, this is a difference in opinion between us.  

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37 minutes ago, DMC said:

LOL about Williamson.

@GrimTuesday:

 

To my memory, Bernie never whined about being treated like an outsider. His supporters certainly did, but honestly their complaints were not without merit. The party leadership was absolutely filled with people strongly loyal to the Clintons and bullshit third way ghouls.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some raving Bernie or bust maniac, but what about his policies are divorced from reality?

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8 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Originally I wanted to make a reference to VEEP 

I wouldn't have gotten a VEEP reference.  I had enough of Julia Dreyfus after Seinfeld.

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2 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

To my memory, Bernie never whined about being treated like an outsider. 

Uhh...

3 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

but what about his policies are divorced from reality?

Everything.  They're not realistic, neither budgetarily nor legislatively.

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Just catching the aftermath on the cable news Kamala was such a girlboss* it was unreal.  Shit.

I saw some of y'all's takes in the last thread that Gillibrand finally got going, but, and I hate that this matters, but she kept stumbling on her words even when she had so much momentum with what she was angling for.  There was even one moment where I was like "all of that sounds good to the typical Dem audience" and yet there was literally zero applause. 

*I think that this is a compliment, and I mean it as such, but I'm so ancient all of the sudden that I have this sliver of doubt that I'm using it wrong.  

ETA:  Kamala's confidence is sincere, earned, and I suspect infectious

 

Edited by Triskele

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Bernie's good, but you're not going to convince some of the haters around here. In fact, it'd be great to see the numbers of those die hard Berners who refused to vote Clinton vs the still-angry Clinton supporters who refuse to ever support Bernie. Seems pretty ridiculous. Hillary lost the election for many reasons, and Bernie wasn't one of them. 

And this idea he hasn't any plans to make his ideas work? I don't get that either. People just don't listen to him. Medicare for all? Taxes go up for all--and his point being, that you might pay more monthly in taxes, but nowhere near the premiums you pay for your shitty work provided healthcare (for me and my son, mine is 20 percent of my income now--and I have high copays!). 

When you think about the stats that three or four families in this country control more wealth than the bottom half of earners in this country, and that they don't pay taxes, well, I think I know where the money will come from. Bernie wants to redistribute wealth. 

I remember a smart economics professor explaining this to me once. It seems like the wealth inequality, the scarcity of resources, the humanitarian crises are all unavoidable, but they aren't. This is just how society has been shaped. It doesn't have to be shaped this way, but people are so resistant to restructuring things. 

Biden or Trump are no different. We have too many catastrophic issues for some middling dickhead to sit in the White House trying to work with Mitch McConnell. We need some radical change, and every election we let go by with some centrist, reach across the aisle type, the closer we come to the brink. 

So...my prediction is Biden will win the nom.

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26 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Just catching the aftermath

Agree with your statements on both Harris and Gillibrand.  The latter is just almost ready, but not quite there.  She knows what to say, but she can't deliver it in a convincing manner.

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21 minutes ago, Mr. Fancy Pants said:

it'd be great to see the numbers of those die hard Berners who refused to vote Clinton vs the still-angry Clinton supporters who refuse to ever support Bernie. Seems pretty ridiculous. Hillary lost the election for many reasons, and Bernie wasn't one of them. 

To be clear, I was neither a diehard Hillary nor Bernie supporter.  I dislike both of them almost, or somewhat, equally.  The only "ista" I've ever really been is Obama.  And I doubt that will ever change or added upon.

As for Bernie's policies, I stand by my previous comments.

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I didn't see the Harris win that everyone's raving about. She had some good moments, but she mostly came across as inconsistent to me. She took a few  swipes at Biden, but it looked to me like he was rope-a-doping her:  letting her take her swipes, and then bringing out the big guns of all the legislation he's helped push during his career. 

Plus, no one even went after her, and she still seemed unsteady on her feet at times. I hope she's able to do better when she has a real target on her back.

Out of everyone, I think Buttigieg had the standout performance. He was unflappable, steady, and straight-forward, and this is the first time I've thought to myself that I could see him as President.

Sanders started out okay, but flagged toward the end. Biden did what he came out to do; mostly stayed above the fray and kept from getting knocked out.

Gillibrand was mostly forgettable except for her one standout moment.

My rankings:

1) Buttigieg 

2) Biden

3) Harris

4) Sanders

5) Gillibrand 

6+) Wastes of space and air-time

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13 minutes ago, DMC said:

 The only "ista" I've ever really been is Obama.  And I doubt that will ever change or added upon.

By the way, owe you a response on the other thing, and will get it to you.

On this comment this is why I'm something of a Beto apologist.  Not that he's my favorite, but I remember in Obama's rise both that people called him an empty suit or a cypher and I feel like Beto is getting some of that now.  But all politicians have to play this same game to some extent.  

O'Rourke, like Obama, sort of straddles that territory between the most progressive wing and the blue dog moderate wing.  Was Obama authentic or was he slightly calculating?  If it's the latter, do we really care?  And if that's the case, what's wrong with O'Rourke?

All of that said, Beto needs to up his game to compete with Castro, Pete, Booker, and Kamala.  All of them looked stronger this opening weekend.  

Edited by Triskele

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12 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I didn't see the Harris win that everyone's raving about.

Speaking only for myself I get what you're saying here, but I thought that she had a gravitas or presence that was undeniable.  Attention-getting.  

ETA:  Point being it wasn't all in the policy or the responses.  

 

Edited by Triskele

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7 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

letting her take her swipes, and then bringing out the big guns of all the legislation he's helped push during his career. 

You mean all the legislation he lied or at least overexaggerated about being a part of?  Not saying it's a bad tactic, but I can't help myself.  His bullshit credit-taking was off the fucking charts.  He was so full of shit taking credit for everything good that happened in the past and evading responsibility for everything bad that happened in the past.

Anyway I agree that I though Buttigieg stood out more than any in the last half hour I watched.  But looks like Harris is getting the press, which is all that matters.

5 minutes ago, Triskele said:

By the way, owe you a response on the other thing, and will get it to you.

No worries, not expecting anything.

6 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Not that he's my favorite, but I remember in Obama's rise both that people called him an empty suit or a cypher and I feel like Beto is getting some of that now.  But all politicians have to play this same game to some extent.  

O'Rourke, like Obama, sort of straddles that territory between the most progressive wing and the blue dog moderate wing.  Was Obama authentic or was he slightly calculating?  If it's the latter, do we really care?  And if that's the case, what's wrong with O'Rourke?

I don't dislike Beto because he's green.  I dislike him because, no, he does not galvanize people the way Obama did.  The comparison does grate on me.  Beto is not an empty suit, I'm not saying that.  But he's also not nearly as adept and skilled of a politician as Obama was when he started running.  And he doesn't have the hook that Obama had - opposing the Iraq War.

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