Nature and origin of the Children of the Forest

[un_Autre_monde]

Tl;dr Much more characters than we thought may have CotF among their ancestors.

 

 

Nature and origin of the Children of the Forest

 

« - What do the trees remember ?

- The secrets of the old gods. »

ADWD - Bran III

 

(https://imgur.com/IhEhUNA)

 

 

Preamble

 

We recommend that you have read ADWD.

We will name Earth the world that some call Planetos.

All quotes without reference are made up of combined excerpts from the Encyclopedia and the wikis of westeros.org and lagardedenuit.com.

A detailed summary is at the end.

 

English is not my first language and I did best I could to translate this.

The only ambition of this text is to provide a pleasant reading.

 

 

Introduction

 

 

Quote

« - It's magic, he'd say.

- It's not, Cat said. The mouse was up your sleeve the whole time. I could see it moving. »

AFFC - Cat of the Canals

 

The ASOIAF world is filled with dozens of different peoples and species. The Children of the Forest stand out for their ancestrality, appearance and powers. What are they, exactly? Where do they come from? When and how did they appear?
This mystery is built by George RR Martin as a game of hints and deductions. To solve it, we will investigate in the four corners of the known world, from the Neck to Leng, from Ib to Naath... and other even more mysterious places.

In order to discover the origin of the CotF, we must understand their nature. Morphology, physiology, reproduction, genetics, evolution, culture, lifestyle, society, environment... We will study in detail all their characteristics as a species.
First of all, let us recall what defines a species:

 

« A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. »

 

Why would this definition be valid in the context of the fictional and fantastic world of ASOIAF? After all, what the author shows us are supernatural beings. It's magic, says GRRM.

But we, attentive readers, can see the mice moving in his sleeve. Big mice, hirsutes and taciturn....

 

Magic has its place in ASOIAF, but it is not always where we expect it.

 

1- The Ibbenese case

(https://imgur.com/SDOwU4w)

 

The first step of our long journey is in the Shivering Sea. The Ibbenese are an ancient people of islanders from the north of Essos. TWOIAF gives an extremely precise description of their morphological type.

 

Quote

« The Ibbenese stand apart from the rest of mankind. They are a heavy people, broad about the chest and shoulders, but seldom standing more than five and a half feet in height, with thick, short legs and long arms. Though short and squat, they are ferociously strong; at wrestling, their favorite sport, no man can hope to equal them.

Their faces, characterized by sloping brows with heavy ridges, small sunken eyes, great square teeth, and massive jaws, seem brutish and ugly, an impression heightened by their guttural, grunting tongue. They are the most hirsute people in the known world. Though their flesh is pale, with dark blue veins beneath the skin, their hair is dark and wiry. Ibbenese men are heavily bearded; wiry body hair covers their arms, legs, chests, and backs. Coarse dark hair is common amongst their women, even on the upper lip. »

 

(https://imgur.com/PSsPqJH)

 

But above all, the text contains essential information about these people, of a biological nature.

 

Quote

« Though the men of Ib can father children upon the women of Westeros and other lands, the products of such unions are often malformed and inevitably sterile, in the manner of mules. Ibbenese females, when mated with men from other races, bring forth naught but stillbirths and monstrosities. »

In fact, this excerpt describes hybridization by interspecific crossing, a barbaric term if ever there was one. This is not to be confused with intraspecific crossing, as between two dogs of different breeds.

Here we are talking about reproduction between two distinct species, such as a horse and a donkey, a lion and a tiger, a camel and a lama.... These crosses have the particularity of producing individuals that are generally not very fertile or even sterile.

 

Moreover, note the detail: the text specifies that there is a structural difference between the product of a union between an Ibbenese male and a human female (viable but sterile) and that of a union between an Ibbenese female and a human male (non-viable).

And the comparison with mules in the text is not innocent. Mules are sterile hybrids produced by a donkey and a mare. On the other hand, the mating of a stallion and a female donkey produces a different hybrid, the hinny, which is also sterile.

 

This exerpt reveals that the definition of species is valid in the world of ASOIAF, and that humans and Ibenese are as genetically different as horses and donkeys are. This will not surprise anyone, as GRRM pays great attention to genetic considerations in general. It is known.

 

(https://imgur.com/b3Bu5BD)

 

In conclusion, although the Ibbenians resemble humans in the sense that they are intelligent primates who have developed a civilization, biologically speaking the two groups do not belong to the same species.

It is easy to imagine that the author had fun creating a world in which, in different places, different primates experienced a similar evolution and gave humans on one side, the Ibenians on another, etc....

Perhaps there is another explanation, but it is conceivable at least from the point of view of the complexity of the world created by GRRM ; whose fauna includes, as a reminder, all kinds of species inspired by our prehistory, mammoths and other "walking lizards"...

 

Now let's get to the heart of the matter, and get interested in the CotF.

 

2 - Nature of the Children of the Forest

 

We have seen that, in the ASOIAF world, the question of the nature of species arises in terms of biology.

The external appearance of the Ibbenians was only an indication of their true nature. Genetics provides the definitive proof, and reproduction is the determining criterion.

 

Then let's repeat the exercise with the CotF. But this time it is a question of examining in detail everything we know about them.

Let us observe them very carefully, and above all, let us not stop at appearances.

 

(https://imgur.com/XHA5OaJ)

 

Quote

« The Children are as small as children, but they are not childlike. They are dark and beautiful ; slight, quick, and graceful. They may live for centuries.

They have nut-brown skin, dappled like a deer's with paler spots. Their hands have only three fingers and a thumb, with sharp black claws instead of nails. They have large ears that can hear things that no man can hear. They usually have large gold and green eyes slitted like those of a cat, allowing them to see in dark passages.

Very rarely, one of the children is born with mossy green or blood red eyes, a sign that he have greensight.

 

They were the first inhabitants of Westeros with the giants. They could once be found from the Lands of Always Winter to the shores of the Summer Sea.

They lived in a crude manner. They worked no metal, but they had great art in working obsidian to make tools and weapons. They wove no cloths but were skilled in making garments of leaves and bark. They weave leaves and vines and flowers into their hair, and wear cloaks of leaves. They learned to make bows of weirwood and to construct flying snares of grass, and both of the sexes hunted with these.

They resided in the woods, in crannogs, in bogs and marshes, and even in caverns and hollow hills. It is said that, in the woods, they made shelters of leaves and withes up in the branches of trees.

 

They call themselves those who sing the song of earth, the giants call them little squirrel people.

They often sing, and their song and music were said to be as beautiful as they were.

The gods they worshipped were the innumerable gods of the streams and forests and stones.

It was the children who carved the weirwoods with faces.

 

They were led by their wise men, the greenseers, whose powers enabled them to see through the eyes of the carved weirwoods, see events at a great distance, communicate across half a realm, delve into the past and see far into the future.

The skinchangers communicated with beasts, and could control them by having their spirits mingle.

The hunters among the Children became their warriors as First Men invaded their territory. »

 

 

It should be remembered that the CotF were also present in Essos, which is not surprising because this continent was once connected to Westeros.

 

(https://imgur.com/LEmActb)

 

Quote

« The land of Ifequevron is a huge swathe of northern Essos, a densely wooded region that had formerly been the home of a small, shy forest folk, that Dothraki called those who walk in the woods. Some say that the Ibbenese extinguished this gentle race, whilst others believe they went into hiding in the deeper woods or fled to other lands.

Corlys Velaryon visited these woods, he wrote of carved trees, haunted grottoes, and strange silences. The little people blessed a household that left offerings of leaf and stone and water overnight.

The Dothraki had shunned those forests; some say this was because of their reverence for the vanished wood walkers, others because they feared their powers. »

 

Note the strange silences, which refer to the music and songs of the CotF. A poetic way of identifying them by their absence.

 

 

In short, we are dealing with an ancient and primitive people, living in harmony with nature. We remember the CotF for their skill, their music, their craftsmanship, their powers...

And their very strange eyes.

 

Eye colour and size are particularly interesting, as they are very important in general in ASOIAF. Members of the same family often have similar eyes. Sometimes the eyes can reveal a character's secret identity. Here they will interest us especially as a hereditary genetic trait.

 

The description of the Forest Children may suggest that they are a species in their own right, but the reproduction data is missing to confirm or disprove this.

However, if we could demonstrate that CotF and humans can produce viable and fertile offspring, we could conclude that, unlike the Ibbenian case, these two groups constitute a single species.

 

There is no formal proof of this, but strong clues suggesting that humans and CotFs can indeed have children, and that they themselves can generate offspring. Everyone will form an intimate conviction after examining the facts.

These clues includes human groups that seem to share certain very particular characteristics with the CotF.

 

Let's follow the CotF trail where they lived, because they left their mark.

 

(https://imgur.com/wVrHbUb)

 

The mixed peoples

 

Terminology note: For simplicity, mixed people and intermixing will refer to the mixing of two populations, in genetic and cultural terms.

 

If, in the past, humans and CotF interbred, their descendants must have hereditary genetic traits. And it is !

 

We will observe three peoples, and see that they share with the CotF many morphological, physiological, and cultural characteristic.

The latter are not evidence in themselves, but they are interesting to note because, when added to the other characteristics, they become an additional clue of population mixing.

 

The idea is that human populations have lived in contact with the CotF, that crossbreeding has taken place, and that these peoples are its descendants.

 

First let us give an overview of these three peoples.

 

 

The Crannogmen

(https://imgur.com/GniiJVW)

Let's start with the most famous of these three peoples, from which Meera and Jojen Reed come.

 

 

Quote

« The crannogmen are a reclusive people who dwell in the Neck, a land covered in swamp and bog, infested with quicksand, lizard-lions, snakes and poisonous plants. The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the Children of the Forest.

They live in houses of thatch and woven reeds. wield nets and use poisonned arrows. They are talented hunters and warriors. Despite their slight stature and somewhat primitive lifestyle, they have proven a notoriously difficult people to conquer.

They saw their kings as the first among equals, who were often thought to be touched by the old gods—a fact that show itself in eyes of strange hues (like Jojen Reed's unusually deep mossy green eyes), or even in speaking with animals.

Some claim the Crannogmen's small stature results from inadequate nourishment, other say it is because they intermarried with the Children of the Forest. »

 

The last sentence, although speculative, is full of meaning. Not only is this a formal reference in the text to possible crossbreeding, but it emphasizes a genetic consideration: the transmission of hereditary traits ; and even suggests the evolution of a human group as a result of this transmission.

 

 

The Naathis

(https://imgur.com/kbIToNr)

 

Let's continue with the people from which Missandei comes.

 

Quote

« In the Summer Sea lies the mysterious island of Naath, known to the ancients as the Isle of Butterflies, which inland is made of hills and forests.

The people native to the island have round flat faces, dusky skin, and large, soft amber eyes, oft flecked with gold. They are as clever as they are gentle, fair to look upon, and quick to learn obedience.

The Peaceful People, the Naathi are called, for they will not fight even in defense of their homes and persons. They do not kill, not even beasts of the field and wood; they eat fruit, not flesh, and make music, not war. Their fine handicrafts, shimmering silks, and delicate spiced wines are exported to a large number of countries. The god of Naath is called the Lord of Harmony.

Whilst the docile nature of the Naathi seem to make their island ripe for conquest, strangers do not live long upon the Isle of Butterflies. Yet none of these invaders survived, and the native claim that none lasted more than a year, for some evil humor lurks in the very air of this fair isle, and all those who linger too long on Naath soon succumb. The Naathi themselves are seemingly untroubled by the illness. Some believe that it is spread by the butterflies. »

 

 

The Lengiis

(https://imgur.com/YOLJNhh)

The second part of our journey ends in an even more exotic and mysterious land.

 

Quote

« The verdant isle of Leng, which history goes back very far, surrounded by the waters of the Jade Sea.

There are queer ruins in the depths of the island's jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface...but underground, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth.

The native Lengii are perhaps the tallest of all the known races of mankind, with many men amongst them reaching seven feet in height, and some as tall as eight. Long-legged and slender, with flesh the color of oiled teak, they have large golden eyes and can supposedly see farther and better than other men, especially at night. Though formidably tall, the women of the Lengii are famously lithe and lovely, of surpassing beauty.

For much of its history, Leng has been an isle of mystery, for the native Lengii seldom sailed beyond sight of their own shores, and such seafarers who chanced to glimpse their coasts met a cold reception should they dare to come ashore. The Lengii had no interest in foreign gods, foreign goods, foreign food or dress or customs; nor did they allow outsiders to mine their gold, harvest their trees, gather their fruit, or fish their seas. Those who attemped to do so met a swift and bloody end. Leng became known as a haunt of demons and sorcerers, a place to be avoided, a closed island.

The great apes of Leng are also farfamed; amongst them are spotted humpback apes said to be almost as clever as men, and hooded apes as large as giants, so strong that they can pull the arms and legs off a man as easily as a boy might pull the wings off a fly. »

 

 

Evidences about intermixing

 

Let us examine in detail the characteristics of these peoples which are clues of intermixing between humans and CotF.

 

Environment

 

(https://imgur.com/NMpgnIl)

 

Their environment (marshes and bogs, forests and hills, jungle and caves), typical of the kind of environment that the CotF like, indicates that they may have been present on these territories in the past.

The existence of caves and tunnels is not mentioned about Naath and the Neck. In fact, if there are any on Naath, we have no way of knowing, since no stranger has stayed on the island long enough to explore it in depth. As for the underground passages of the Neck, they are certainly flooded (see the particular history of this region).

Finally, it should be noted that these regions are singularly isolated, an essential feature from an evolutionary point of view. Indeed, these three peoples have in common that they live in an environment cut off from the outside world for several reasons :

- or by its geography in the case of Naath and Leng islands ;

- or by the hostility of nature ;

- or by the fierce nature of its inhabitants ;

- by its bad reputation, an element common to all three regions.

 

These places may have fostered a certain mix between the human populations and the CotF present, as well as an evolution in isolation.

 

 

Way of living

 

We are not going to insist on the culture, we have already mentioned that it does not constitute formal proof of intermixing.

Let us simply note that the cultures of these very old peoples indicate that they have been close to the CotF. Probably in peaceful coexistence, because these three peoples are peaceful, have never shown any desire for external conquest, and respect nature.

 

 

Powers

 

We know that among the CotF, some individuals called skinchangers or greenseers possessed powers.

The powers of the CotF are explicitly mentioned in relation to the Crannogmen.

The Naathis, on the other hand, seem to have a deep relationship with the butterflies of their island.

 

 

Biology

 

(https://imgur.com/dWZccA7)

 

Of course, these peoples have their own physical characteristics. The Lengiis are tall but it's not proof that they didn't lived close to the CotF. First, each environment produces its own subspecies. Moreover, the human ancestors of these three peoples were probably different from each other : the initial physical characteristics being not the same, the intermixing will give different results.

 

What interests us is those they have in common with the CotF, because it can be assumed that they acquired these hereditary traits through reproduction with the CotF, and that they were then transmitted from generation to generation.

Many features in the morphology of the mixed peoples recall the CotF. The Lengiis even have a physiological condition specific to CotF : night vision.

But the eyes are the best indicator of the intermixing between human populations and CotF. In particular the colour of the irises: the golden specific to the CotF is found among the Naathis and Lengiis. As for the Crannogmen, the text mentions eyes of a strange colour, and Jojen Reed's description is unequivocal.

 

 

Conclusion

 

 

Quote

« The cat was an ordinary cat, no more. The others expected a fabulous beast, so that is what they saw. How large it was, they said. It was no larger than any other cat, only fat from indolence, for the Sealord fed it from his own table. What curious small ears, they said. Its ears had been chewed away in kitten fights. And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said ‘her,’ and that is what the others saw. »

AGOT – Arya IV

 

The mixed peoples are humans with CotF among their ancestors. We can imagine that human populations arrived on territories occupied by the CotF. As long as these humans were peaceful and respected nature, these two groups could coexist. Over time, intermixing has taken place, and traces of it can be found in current populations.

 

In conclusion, all the clues are there to affirm that crossbreeding has taken place on a relatively large scale, which would tend to demonstrate that biologically humans and CotF are in fact one and the same species.

 

The CotF are not supernatural beings, contrary to what the author leads us to believe. Since humans are the main subject of GRRM, this choice seems consistent. And it is not just another twist on a character's secret identity, because it is related the deep themes of the story.

 

But before elaborating on the author's intentions, we must establish the origin of the CotF. The third and last part of our journey will take us back in time.

And we will see that, like the gigantic yellow cat with small ears of the Sealord, the specificities of the CotF have a rational explanation.

 

Terminology note: For the sake of clarity we will continue to distinguish between the terms human and CotF.

 

 

3- Origin of the Children of the Forest

 

(https://imgur.com/wfyImiy)

 

Quote

« Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem . . . but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes. »

Maester Luwin, ACOK – Bran IV

 

Quote

« There are none who can say with certain knowledge when the world began. Is it forty thousand years old, as some hold, or perhaps a number as large as five hundred thousand - or even more ? It is not written in any book that we know, for in the first age of the world, the Dawn Age, men were not lettered.

What can most accurately be told about the Dawn Age? The eastern lands were awash with many peoples. But on Westeros only two peoples existed : the Children of the Forest and the the giants. »

TWOIAF

 

Let's be precise : it is said that the CotF preceded humans in Westeros, not on Earth.

It does not say where, when or how humans appeared.
It does not say where, when or how the CotF appeared.

It's not about nitpick. The question of origins is omnipresent in ASOIAF.

Who are the (true) ancestors of the characters?
Where do dragons, weirwood, the Others come from?
What happened in Summerhall, Hardhome, Ashaï... ?

How much truth is contained in the myths and legends of the past?

At the beginning of the Dawn Age, indeed, the CotF occupied almost all the known world. And their encounter with humans took place in a second phase.
But what interests us takes place precisely before the Dawn Age.

Because the Dawn Age is not the first age of the world. ASOIAF takes into consideration long time and evolution, so the CotF must come from somewhere.
And it is not impossible in itself that humans and CotF belong to the same species. They are just two extremely different groups.
 

(https://imgur.com/3aWribj)

 

All that remains is the following question: what events may have led to this situation, where two such physically different human groups coexist on the surface of the Earth?
We could make hypotheses, but responding in a global, coherent and contextualized way requires a thorough examination of the CotF.
Some may have wondered how the presence of the Cot in the islands of Naath and Leng was possible, given that they are never presented as a people of sailors. This question seems less important, but we will see that it is part of the matter.
 

 

Study of the Children of the Forest

 

We will list precisely what distinguishes them from humans in an attempt to understand their history.

 

Powers

 

Without discussing the nature of magic, let's observe that humans have the same skills as CotF, the best example being Bran Stark.
So either magic transcends species, or the powers are specific to the human species. The second hypothesis seems to be the right one, as there is no mention of Ibbenians, giants and other evolved primates with CotF powers.
In any case, powers cannot help us to differentiate between the two groups we are interested in.

 

Way of life

 

The way of life of the CotF is very similar to that of primitive human peoples: hunting, fishing, war, music, crafts (making tools, clothing and shelters), animist religion, preservation and transmission of memory of ancestors... The image of a classic hunter-gatherer tribe.

It should also be noted that they live in groups, which is not the case for some non-human peoples. It's a detail but it's very coherent from an anthropological point of view.

In short, their lifestyle is no different from that of humans: studying their behaviour confirms what genetics has proven.

 

Society

 

A quick digression, which will be important later, about the civilizational differences between CotF and humans.

We know too little to say, but we may wonder whether the CotF powers have not profoundly changed their society. In particular the possibility of communicating quickly over long distances, as well as a perfect memory of the past. Perhaps also that their power to mix minds has increased the share of empathy in their psychology.

We find no evidence of war between CotF: have they succeeded in building a peaceful society?

The clues of the past presence of the CotF are the same everywhere, and it is because of this that we can identify them. The CotF seem to have a single language, a single culture, which suggests a globalized and unified society.

CotFs modify their environment extremely little, preferring to adapt to it. It seems that they have reached a stage where they can live in harmony with nature.

 

(https://imgur.com/BjsMqV0)

 

Biology

 

So far we have observed beings that are not so different from humans : CotF simply have very particular physical characteristics.

 

Let us recall the specificities of the CotF: they are smaller than humans, have nut-brown dappled with paler spots, large slitted eyes, four fingers including one thumb, sharp claws, large ears, very developed hearing, and they see in the dark.

 

First we notice that, unlike humans, the CotF have kept long sharp claws despite the fact that they use tools and weapons, including sharp blades. From an evolutionary point of view, this observation must question us.

 

Are the CotF simply humans who have developed claws and other particular morphological and physiological characteristics? We have established that it is possible that the existence of humans precedes that of the CotF on Earth. We don't know which one appeared first: perhaps the CotF are the descendants of a group of humans, after all.

Humans that would have evolved because of mutant fungi from space, for example. Or to adapt to a new environment.

 

However, we can see that this is typically the type of features that can result from an evolution due to the environment. So let's forget the mutant fungi.

The skin of the CotF, compared in the text to a deer's one, evokes their forest life.

Their ears and especially their eyes show a good adaptation to nightlife, or generally to a dark environment.

Their small size tends to show an adaptation to a confined environment.

The four-toed clawed front legs are typical of some rodent and burrowing mammals such as squirrels (of course), but also prairie dogs and groundhogs. In fact, these animals have five fingers, but their legs are adapted to their use, and the thumb is atrophied or even invisible. We can imagine that the same is true for the CotF, that they simply have a finger largely atrophied, but that unlike animals they have kept the thumb, which they use to handle tools and weapons.

 

So, to what environment should humans have adapted to develop all these physical characteristics?

 

(https://imgur.com/hRMiYPG)

 

Underground

 

It's time to talk about the CotF link to the underground. Indeed, let us recall that, surprisingly, this people is known to appreciate two very different types of environment: wooded or marshy environments, and then caves, hollow hills, and any kind of tunnels... which is surprising in itself. The CotF are well adapted to life in the forest, which seems to be their natural environment. What is the point of going underground ?

 

Refuge

 

The underground seems to be the CotF's natural refuge when they feel threatened. We have many examples of this, such as in the Stormlands during the conflict between the First Men and the Andals.

This raises the question of their subsistence. How do they survive, once they take refuge in the tunnels ? Do they go out at night to hunt ? Do they feed on rats ? Without claiming anything, let us simply remember that the Giants called the CotF the people who store for winter.

 

Obsidian

(https://imgur.com/Xkr6gm2)

It seems to be a volcanic rock, but we will not discuss the nature or origin of obsidian. Let us simply point out that this material has magical properties and that it is found in its raw state, among other places, in the old tunnels beneath the Peyredragon mountain.

For the CotF, obsidian is the raw material of their primitive technology. They cut this sharp but fragile stone to obtain blades and arrowheads.

At first sight, knowledge of obsidian is not a specificity of the CotF: the Valyrians used it to make magic candles to see and communicate over long distances. On the other hand, it is never mentioned about mixed race peoples. It seems that, despite the intermixing, the CotF did not wish to share this knowledge with the humans they met. We can suspect the CotF to know the magical properties of the obsidian, and to use it for more... secret uses.

One last detail about the obsidian. TWOIAF emphasizes the great art with which the CotF work with this material, which suggests that they have a perfect mastery of it. Moreover, they did not invent weaving and continue to make clothes from raw materials. Could it be that the use of obsidian constitutes for them a more ancient knowledge than those related to life in the woods?

 

In any case, they are very well adapted to the underground world (perhaps even better than to the forest, where they had to develop a minimum of technologies necessary for their survival), and that they have a perfect knowledge of underground networks.

This could explain their presence in the islands of Leng, Naath, and certainly others (there are indications of their presence on Skagos, in particular).

The underground could well be the primal environment of the CotF.

 

Conclusion

 

We have found that the CotF, despite superficial differences, are extremely close to humans, which confirms the demonstration by genetics.

All our observations lead us to ask the question: are the CotF the descendants of humans who have been forced to live below the earth's surface long enough to evolve there, thus adapting to this new and extreme environment?

The next step is to place this assumption in the general context of ASOIAF.

 

Theory

 

Quote

« The First Men named us children. The giants called us the squirrel people, because we were small and quick and fond of trees, but we are no squirrels, no children. Before your Old Tongue was ever spoken, we had sung our songs ten thousand years. »

Leaf, ADWD – Bran II

 

Quote

« Men should not go wandering in this place… The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years. »

Leaf, ADWD – Bran III

 

Who are the CotF ? Where do they come from ? When and how did they appear ?

This is my theory.

 

Long before the Long Night, long before the Dawn Age, at a time when the CotF did not yet exist, humans already populated the Earth.

It all starts when a disaster strikes. A cataclysm. The apocalypse. Extreme glacial era, comet impact, invasion of mutant fungi... Whatever its nature, it is a disruption of such magnitude that it will eradicate the human species from the surface of the Earth for a very, very long time.

Thus begins the Night Age.

 

Humans have managed to survive and perpetuate the species. ASOIAF tells the story of their very distant descendants: the CotF people and the First Men.

 

The CotF's ancestors are humans who hid far, far below the Earth's surface. These humans survived despite everything. Over time, they have evolved physically to adapt to underground life. And somehow, some of them have acquired powers. But their true nature remains unchanged : they are still humans. This new people takes the name of "those who sing the song of earth".

As for the ancestors of the First Men, they were able to survive in some shelter, without having to adapt to a new environment. In a bunker, an arch, or a lunar base.... A place that must look like Winterfell or the Eyrie. An impregnable fortress, isolated from the world.

 

Time passes. Centuries and millennia, possibly more. Until finally the Earth's surface becomes inhabitable again.

 

So the CotF, wherever possible, come out of the underground and gradually adapt to life in the forest.

This is Dawn Age day one.

Humans, in turn, emerge from their shelter and begin to repopulate the entire Earth. In many places, they will be confronted with the CotF.

Much later will happen the Long Night and all the events narrated in ASOIAF.

 

 

 

The apocalypse, mutant humans... Oh, I know what you're thinking.

 

That's exactly the kind of story GRRM likes to tell !

 

It's time to visit an old friend.

 

4- Dark, dark were the tunnels

 

Note : All quotes in this section are taken from the short story.

 

Quote

« If anything survived, it was underground. That’s where we should look. »

 

Dark, Dark were the tunnels is the title of a short story written by GRRM in 1971, in which he tells about Greel, a scout on a mission for the People.

It is a creature of vaguely human form, small, barely over four feet tall, with large pale eyes. Armed with his spear, he explores the narrow, dark tunnels below the Earth's surface, dreaming that taletellers would sing of his future heroic achievements. Greel has a mental brother, a great blind rat who has been with him since birth, and whom he can control to hear and feel through him.

Yes, the members of the People have powers. They can mingle their minds with those of other living beings. Yet, despite appearances, they are humans.

Indeed, very quickly the reader understands that several centuries ago, a cataclysmic event caused humans to disappear from the Earth's surface, and separated the survivors into two groups.

The first ones left the planet and witnessed the events from a long distance, without being affected.

The latter must have hide into the depths of the Earth, where they returned to a primitive stage and survived under extreme conditions.... Finally, only the best adapted ones survived. Thus, slowly, the human species has evolved physically, adapting to this new environment. Their size and build have decreased due to the small size of the tunnels. Deprived of light, their eyes developed, and their skin paled.

The short story tells the encounter between the People and the first men to return to Earth.

Will they be able to see beyond appearances and understand that they are not so different?

 

(https://imgur.com/Vgsqg05)

(https://imgur.com/0CzQzef)

 

Sci-fi short story or fantasy novel, if the genre is different, the main themes developed by GRRM in both stories are essentially the same.

Here are a few examples.

 

 

Quote

« The tunnels. The dark. For long centuries only the dark. »

 

What would happen to mankind if it were plunged into darkness? A theme that inevitably evokes the Long Night, and which has obviously fascinated GRRM for a long time.

Here he gives an ambiguous answer to this question, by contrasting a return to the primitive state and a real psychological evolution of our species. For the members of the People, normal humans are lower animals with crippled minds.

We find this same dynamic in ASOIAF, the CotF seeing humans as... children!

 

 

Quote

« Don’t you understand? This is old. It’s history. It’s the remains of a civilization and a nation and a planet that perished. »

 

The apocalypse is both the main theme and the issue of the short story: civilizations have disappeared, and the human species is threatened with extinction.

The concept of the apocalypse, an event that destroys an entire civilization by its scale, is a recurring theme in ASOIAF. We immediately think of the Doom of Valyria, as well as all the places that seem to bear the traces of past cataclysms, but also of all these even older and more mysterious ruins, which seem to be the traces of disappeared civilizations.

The central point of the story itself, the arrival of the Others, inscribed in the prologue to the very first novel, immediately raises the issue : it is the human species that is in danger of disappearing.

In reality, what interests GRRM is not so much the apocalypse itself as what happens to the survivors and their descendants, including several centuries or thousands of years later... or even more.

 

 

Quote

« Man must meet man. »

 

The encounter of two very different worlds, which go to war despite the greater threat they face, and which risk disappearing together if they do not succeed in allying... Does that recall something ?

What would happen if today's humans met their very distant descendants? Could they understand each other? This is the big question this short story raises, and it is the one we are discussing here, because GRRM is asking it again in ASOIAF, without revealing this time the origin of the mysterious people with whom humans are confronted.

 

 

Quote

« He concentrated on the scent. It was strange, unlike anything he had encountered before. But somehow it felt like a man-scent, though it could not be that. »

 

In a few pages, GRRM was already addressing many of his favourite themes in 1971. I do not reveal any more, but this short story also tells about ice and fire, light and darkness, survival and madness, desire and duty, impregnation and death, and, of course, inbreeding.

 

 

Quote

« - Down here, in these tunnels, are the answers we’re seeking.

- That’s your theory, anyway. »

 

All this to say that it is not impossible that GRRM, fascinated by the same themes for a long time, may take up some of its old stories and tell them again, but in another form, in another setting, by turning certain concepts upside down, playing with them and making them more complex...

He may have draw inspiration from the People of Greel to create the CotF.

 

Quote

« Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time. »

ASOS - Bran II

 

 

Selected short quotes from Dark, Dark were the tunnels :

 

Quote

« Greel was a strong mind-mingler. He knew the coarse, dim feel of an animal’s mind, the obscene shadows that were the thoughts of the worm-things. And he knew the minds of men. »

 

Quote

« He doesn’t realize how deep the cities had dug before the war. There are miles of tunnels under our feet. Level after level. That’s where the survivors would be, if there are any survivors. »

 

Quote

« Greel thought. An almost man-scent. And words. Could it be that the fire things were men? They would be strange men, much unlike the People. But the taletellers sung of men in ancient times that had strange powers and forms. Might not these be such men? Here, in the Oldest Tunnels, where the legends said the Old Ones had created the People - might not such men still dwell here? »

 

Quote

« The People fought back. Mind-minglers could sense the worm-things, and spears could slay them, and the great hunting rats could rip them to shreds. But always the worm-things fled back into the earth itself. And there were many worm-things, and few People. »

 

Quote

« Through him Greel watched : watched with the rat’s ears and with his nose.

The fire was talking. »

 

Quote

« They were men. Men like the Old Ones. They would help the People against the worm-things. A new age would dawn. »

 

 

General conclusion

 

Quote

« The child smiled. "Men, they are the children." »

ADWD - Bran II

 

What really defines the CotF is their humanity. Their smiles. Their sadness....

They are humans. Their appearance is only a consequence of their history.

 

How does this twist serve the story ? Of course, it is a matter of playing with our expectations to surprise us. The author has done everything possible to ensure that, upon discovering the CotF, the reader immediately imagines supernatural beings, creatures such as wood elves or pixies, or nature spirits. But to say that GRRM plays with tropes has become a trope in itself.

 

If the author preferred to imagine another Humanity, it is to put ours in perspective.

 

For the protagonists, the CotF are part of a vanished world. Yet, from our perspective as readers, they could be our descendants. Our children's children's children.

This is GRRM's tour de force: to present, through beings of the past, a future for Mankind.

 

In fact, the theme of the story is not simply an allegory of the opposition between man and nature, this great classic of fantasy literature that everyone expects.

The real point of the encounter between the CotF and the First Men is mankind in conflict with itself.

 

The human being, in all its forms and complexity, is truly at the heart of ASOIAF.

 

Finally, GRRM could have directly revealed the nature and the origin of the CotF, but he only gives us enough clues to understand by ourselves. However, it is all about making it a secret and not revealing it to the reader. Thus he questions us on wether or not we are able to see humanity inside strangeness.

 

 

Thank you for having taken the time to read this text !

 

 

One last thing: unlike humans, who have forgotten where they come from, the CotF know the secret of their origins...

 

Quote

« I am only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. »

ASOS - Bran I

 

THE END

 

 

Selected quotes :

 

Quote

« He lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. »

Leaf, ADWD - Bran III

 

Quote

« Never fear the darkness. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong. »

ADWD - Bran III

 

 

Survival in the underground.

 

Quote

« The way was cramped and twisty, and so low that Hodor soon was crouching. Bran hunched down as best he could, but even so, the top of his head was soon scraping and bumping against the ceiling. Loose dirt crumbled at each touch and dribbled down into his eyes and hair, and once he smacked his brow. »

ADWD - Bran II

 

Quote

« The way the shadows shifted made it seem as if the walls were moving too. Bran saw great white snakes slithering in and out of the earth around him, and his heart thumped in fear. He wondered if they had blundered into a nest of milk snakes or giant grave worms, soft and pale and squishy. Grave worms have teeth. »

ADWD - Bran II

 

Quote

« Under the hill they still had food to eat. A hundred kinds of mushrooms grew down here. Blind white fish swam in the black river, but they tasted just as good as fish with eyes once you cooked them up. They had cheese and milk from the goats that shared the caves with the singers, even some oats and barleycorn and dried fruit laid by during the long summer. And almost every day they ate blood stew, thickened with barley and onions and chunks of meat. Jojen thought it might be squirrel meat, and Meera said that it was rat. Bran did not care. It was meat and it was good. The stewing made it tender. »

ADWD – Bran III

 

Quote

« The great cavern that opened on the abyss was as black as pitch, black as tar, blacker than the feathers of a crow. Light entered as a trespasser, unwanted and unwelcome, and soon was gone again; cookfires, candles, and rushes burned for a little while, then guttered out again, their brief lives at an end. »

ADWD - Bran III

 

 

 

The legend of the people of Greel Gendel....

 

Quote

« Deeper he went, and deeper, and when he tried t' turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky. Soon his torches began t' fail, one by one, till finally there was naught but dark. Gendel's folk were never seen again, but on a still night you can hear their children's children's children sobbing under the hills, still looking for the way back up. Listen? Do you hear them? »

ASOS - Jon III

 

...associated with the Children of the Forest.

 

Quote

« When he looked off that way, he saw eyes. More children, he told himself, but Old Nan's tale of Gendel's children came back to him as well. »

ADWD - Bran II

 

 

Next 3 quotes : On the surface, the apocalypse by fire. The survivors fled underground.

 

Quote

« Thousands of smallfolk streamed out the city gates, carrying their children and worldly possessions on their backs, to seek safety in the countryside. Others dug pits and tunnels under their hovels, dark dank holes where they hoped to hide whilst the city burned. »

The Princess and the Queen

 

Quote

« Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters.

Arya rolled headfirst into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn't care, the taste was fine, the taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say. »

ACOK – Arya IV

 

Quote

« The ashes fell like a soft grey snow.

Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man-rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hot and rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to slaver.

He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and a crash that made the earth jump under his feet. Dogs barked and whined and horses screamed in terror. Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams.

The dark place was pulling at him by then, the house of whispers where all men were blind. He could feel its cold fingers on him. The stony smell of it was a whisper up the nose. He struggled against the pull. He did not like the darkness. He was wolf. He was hunter and stalker and slayer, and he belonged with his brothers and sisters in the deep woods, running free beneath a starry sky. He sat on his haunches, raised his head, and howled. I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go. Yet even so the darkness thickened, until it covered his eyes and filled his nose and stopped his ears, so he could not see or smell or hear or run, and all was black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black…

“Bran,” a voice was whispering softly. “Bran, come back. Come back now, Bran. Bran…”

He closed his third eye and opened the other two, the old two, the blind two. In the dark place all men were blind. But someone was holding him. He could feel arms around him, the warmth of a body snuggled close. He could hear Hodor singing. »

ACOK – Bran VII

 

 

To go further:

 

As we have mentioned, humans have been confronted with CotF wherever they were present. And of course, the intermixing is not limited to the Neck, Naath and Leng. In reality, it is a global phenomenon. In other words, many humans have CotF among their distant ancestors.

 

Traces of these intermixings can be found in many regions : almost everywhere in Westeros but also in Braavos, for example.

 

In myths and legends :

- The Warg King was a human being allied to the CotF. The Starks would have killed his sons and kept his daughters.

- Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight, is a legendary character whose wife, a CotF, died in childbirth. Its history blends and merges with that of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight, founder of the Arryn house and Robert Arryn's distant ancestor.

 

In secondary characters :

- Jenny of Oldstones

- Dick Crabbe

- Elaena Targaryen

- Mya Stone

 

In more important characters :

- Tywin Lannister has green eyes flecked with gold, like the Naathis. Could the Lannisters have CotF among their ancestors ? Well, there are those stories about Lann the Clever...

- Melisandre, her terrifying beauty, her grace, her slender and fine body, her red hair, her red eyes, her musical voice, her powers, her longevity... Reading back her description and that of Leaf can be very interesting.

 

These are just a few examples, there are many more!

See you soon!

 

 

 

Summary :

 

Preamble

 

Introduction

 

1- The Ibbenese case

          Morphology

          Biology

          Conclusion : Ibbenese ≠ humans

 

2- Nature of the CotF

          Introduction

          Description

                    CotF

                    Ifequevron

          Mixed peoples

                    Crannogmen

                    Naathis

                    Lengiis

          Clues about intermixing

                    Environment

                    Culture 

                    Biology

          Conclusion : CotF = humans

 

3- Origin of the CotF

          Introduction

          Study of the CotF

                    Powers

                    Way of life

                    Society

                    Biology

                    Underground

                    Refuge

                    Obsidian

          Conclusion

          Theory

 

4- Dark, Dark were the tunnels

          Synopsys

          Themes

                    Darkness

                    Apocalypse

                    Encounter

                    Others

          Conclusion

          Quotes

 

General conclusion

 

Selected quotes

 

To go further : examples of CotF descendants

[sweetsunray]

I tend to consider the CotF as a different species. I agree about your biological point on how species are defined, but then several findings about Neanderthalls and Sapiens Sapiens suggest both species interbred successfully with remnants of it in mostly humans of European descent. So, perhaps the hard drawn line of what is a species and what not is more grey than black and white. In that regard I'm more inclined to regard the CotF as 1st cousin species of humans.

There are several structures that suggest a third "race" attempted to survive underground: the mazebuilders at Lorath, the maze beneath the Hightower's base. These are sometimes linked to attempting to hide from The Deep Ones, or Squishers or Merlings. The women of a people at one of the Thousand Isles refuses to go near the sea we learn in the World Book too. But then there's Mole Town, which is likely a remnant of the Long Night even. Seeking subterfuge underground seems something that people did during the Long Night in Westeros to remain safe from the Others.

And yes, this is a recurring theme that George uses in many of his stories. In Slide Show humanity survives in underground cities, unable to see the stars. In the House of the Worm you have the grouns - a blind subterranean species with 4 arms and 2 leg. The humans surviving on the surface eat grouns hunted by the meat-man who turns out to be a hybrid of grouns and people. He hunts both grouns and people, giving people to grouns to eat and vice versa. During the protagonist's horror-like adventures underground, he discovers rooms with evidence of genetical engineering experiments, highly suggesting that grouns have evolved, but are human originally too. And well, this underground survival is a thematic trait for Starks: Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have all gone "underground", promoting their survival while most people believe them dead. The problem though is that many of these examples lose their eyes like the blind fish in caves, instead of evolving cat eyes. But if the subterranean survival allowed them to come to the surface once in a while or to hunt at night, that might explain the CotF developing cat eyes. This blind vs cat eye theme is also paralleled in Arya's arc with the HoBaW. She is effectively blind beneath the knoll. But when she wanders in Ragman Harbor and spies there, she uses cat eyes to see.

BTW, the CotF claim an existence of thousand times thousand: a million years.

[un_Autre_monde]

Thank you !

Wether what the CotF are, the core of the theory is that humans and CotF can interbreed, and that really a lot of  Westerosi and Essosi people have CotF features/genes, including the major part of our main characters.

Then I think that the fact that CotF can interbreed with humans is proof that they are indeed humans, and that the CotF appearance is only a consequence of their history.

Finally I propose a scenario of how the CotF were born.

 

We often ask how  did dragons, weirwoods, the Others appeared or were created. But not so much about the CotF. Why assume that "they were always here" ?

[BalerionTheCat]

I've seen these references about interbreeding between humans, CoTF Ibbenese and Sothoryi, even the giants.

TWoIaF:

Quote

The Sothoryi are big-boned creatures, massively muscled, with long arms, sloped foreheads, huge square teeth, heavy jaws, and coarse black hair. Their broad, flat noses suggest snouts, and their thick skins are brindled in patterns of brown and white that seem more hoglike than human. Sothoryi women cannot breed with any save their own males; when mated with men from Essos or Westeros, they bring forth only stillbirths, many hideously malformed.

Quote

JOHN THE OAK, the First Knight, who brought chivalry to Westeros (a huge man, all agree, eight feet tall in some tales, ten or twelve feet tall in others, sired by Garth Greenhand on a giantess).

AGOT, Bran VI:

Quote

Osha eyed him with a sour smile. "Now there’s a big man," she said. "He has giant’s blood in him, or I’m the queen." ... "The women take human men for lovers, and it’s from them the half bloods come."

It surprised me that Ibbeneses and Sothoryi seem farther genetically than CoTF or maybe giants.

I believe these species came from the same ancestor. And evolved separately, at different points in time, by some influence, environment or alteration, magical or godly.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Children are utterly alien compared to humans. They have a different number of digits on their hands, after all. Even apes and monkeys have five fingers.

I say there is zero chance of humans successfully interbreeding with them. The magical gifts were transferred through spiritual and perhaps blood sacrifice means. Not through hybridization of the two species.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, un_Autre_monde said:

Thank you !

Wether what the CotF are, the core of the theory is that humans and CotF can interbreed, and that really a lot of  Westerosi and Essosi people have CotF features/genes, including the major part of our main characters.

Then I think that the fact that CotF can interbreed with humans is proof that they are indeed humans, and that the CotF appearance is only a consequence of their history.

Finally I propose a scenario of how the CotF were born.

 

We often ask how  did dragons, weirwoods, the Others appeared or were created. But not so much about the CotF. Why assume that "they were always here" ?

True, that we rarely wonder about CotF. And you have a solid rw scientific argument, and George's past writing about undeground evolution to humanoid species.

I'm not entirely convinced that George holds to this biological definition in Planetos. While on the one hand you have the classic rule of sterile hybrids with the Ibbinese, there's also a suggested interbreeding or breeding of humans to become dragonlords. The dragonriding Valyrians have certain differences from other humans, that leads to weird reported bat- or lizardlike births at times, or their ability to have a higher survival rate when it comes to diseases that aren't of magical origin, or Area's long-dying process in circumstances where other humans would have died far sooner and with different descriptions. So, something weird is going on with dragonlords and it's related to dragons, and it's suggested it's a genetic thing. The nearby free city Mantarys is said to be a place of twisted births and monsters. Dany sees a 2-headed Mantarys slave (siamese twin). Some readers suspect that after the Doom, Mantarys desperately experimented with grotesque forms of attempting to insiminate animals/slaves, an attempt to crossbreed to create dragonriders again. Some of the lands reported beyond the Five Forts of Yi Ti are said to have lizard-men and such. The results have not been satisfactory of these experiments, but it certainly seems that these people who are trying must have some basis for trying...

IF (and I do mean the conditional here) this were true, would we then have reason to call dragons a human species too? People do expect there to be some sorcery involved when it comes to the creation of the dragonlords and/or the dragons. And since CotF also have magical powers, perhaps the successful interbreeding is not just because they are a race of humans, but through magic?

(And I'm saying that as one who prefers to leave out magic as much as possible as I can)

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

IF (and I do mean the conditional here) this were true, would we then have reason to call dragons a human species too? People do expect there to be some sorcery involved when it comes to the creation of the dragonlords and/or the dragons. And since CotF also have magical powers, perhaps the successful interbreeding is not just because they are a race of humans, but through magic?

Dragons are probably non naturals animal, but hybrids of Fire Wyrms and Wyverns. Created by the Blood Mages from Valyria or Asshai. And linked to them by blood. The dragon lords of Valyria would be their descendant. Dragons would have been created by men.

The CotF claim to be much older than men. Not created by any magic of Man then. Maybe the question should be "who created men?"

And BTW, when did the Others were created? Are they the demons of the Lion of Night, of the Yi-Ti legends, as old as the gods? As old as the Shadows of Asshai?

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Dragons are probably non naturals animal, but hybrids of Fire Wyrms and Wyverns. Created by the Blood Mages from Valyria or Asshai. And linked to them by blood. The dragon lords of Valyria would be their descendant. Dragons would have been created by men.

Agreed.

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The CotF claim to be much older than men. Not created by any magic of Man then. Maybe the question should be "who created men?"

Leaf claims they have lived in the cave where Bloodraven is for a million years:

Quote

The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years." (aDwD, Bran III)

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

And BTW, when did the Others were created? Are they the demons of the Lion of Night, of the Yi-Ti legends, as old as the gods? As old as the Shadows of Asshai?

IMO they were not "created". At best they are self-created. And have been part of Planetos for as long as there has been magic. It's just that

1. Westeros was not always connected to the Lands of Always Winter
2. There never had been such an opportunity to raise a huge army of wights as when First Men populated Westeros that far North. Neither giants nor CotF had that many numbers, and the latter know how to hide in trees (like Will does in the Prologue) and kill with obsidian
3. They are bold in the present timeline, but the Long Night (imo a nuclear winter) seems to be the first time they truly dared to venture far south in great numbers.

This is what I think they basically are: the Plutonian Others

Something else that argues against the CotF being evolved "humans" and still being the same species is their age. Leaf is 200 years old. I assume she is not even the eldest one. Human genetics do not allow us to be older than 120 years, without the help of the weirwood tree. Bloodraven is 125: older than this generalized max life, but not extremely so. However, Leaf mentions that with the CotF, their greenseers normally have a shorter lifespan than non-greenseer CotF, which is part of the reason why they hook up to the weirwoods.

[un_Autre_monde]

@BalerionTheCat In my text, about the squirrel people four fingers with sharp claws. You can take a look at the Sciuridae family.

Quote

The four-toed clawed front legs are typical of some rodent and burrowing mammals such as squirrels (of course), but also prairie dogs and groundhogs. In fact, these animals have five fingers, but their legs are adapted to their use, and the thumb is atrophied or even invisible. We can imagine that the same is true for the CotF, that they simply have a finger largely atrophied, but that unlike animals they have kept the thumb, which they use to handle tools and weapons.

 

@sweetsunray

Quote

IF (and I do mean the conditional here) this were true, would we then have reason to call dragons a human species too? People do expect there to be some sorcery involved when it comes to the creation of the dragonlords and/or the dragons. And since CotF also have magical powers, perhaps the successful interbreeding is not just because they are a race of humans, but through magic?

Or we could see it the other way and think that Valyriens got CotF among their ancestors, and that explains some of their features like their beauty, powers, etc...

For example you can look at Elaena Targaryen and see that she clearly have CotF features (lots of details in appearance, longevity, history with musician husband).

Brynden Rivers has powers and red eyes of course, but also he is thin but smart, extremely good archer (so very good eyesight), use barral bow, and superior longevity that could be due not only to the weirwood but also to his CotF genes.

[The Fattest Leech]

Very interesting topic @un_Autre_monde and I applaud the use of older GRRM stories to support the themes. 

I am also using this post as a bookmark because I want to et back to this post laster when I am at my computer. 

[The Mother of The Others]

If the sun goes dark for years, why would anyone survive on the surface?   That's what bothers me about this series.  Maybe all humans are descended from the Children because Children were the only survivors of the Long Night.   Then those who left the caves grew tall again.   Or long nights are cyclical and the children survived a previous one, and then 'humans' split off from them.  All the 7 kingdoms are currently ultra-dumb and unready to survive this winter, too.  If another long night came, our survivors would be.... Bran and Meera, the new Adam & Eve.   

Something destroyed valyria very competently.    Maybe the planet is the lead Singer and if you're living right you can feel it singing in your blood and blood magic happens for you.   Live wrong and your blood boils.  Or freezes?- -like the green men's?

Lastly, try to include more sex.   To prove humans and CotF are the same species, we need to uncover some of the cave pictogram porn of the Old Ones.   

[White Ravens]

I am willing to be criticized for the following criticism but I`m not willing to read an opening post that is almost 9000 words long.

 

[un_Autre_monde]

@The Mother of The Others More sex, right, fair enough. I can : Nissa Nissa was a CotF and she get impregnated by some First Man. Now I can't really tell you about the positions and all that, but there is a good chance that we see this scene in the next book.

It will certainly involve flat pale nipples.

[un_Autre_monde]

@White Ravens

 

You are not ! I can perfectly understand that you don't want to loose 30min reading only to find another crazy theory. Here is a resume of the logic thinking I try to have in my text.

 

What are the CotF ? Humans.

How do I prove it : genetics, reproduction with humans is possible, so same species.

How do I prove this : by the descendants. People got specific CotF hereditary traits. These must have been transmitted by reproduction.

Why all of this isn't just more simple, because, you know, it is magic ? The Ibbenese case demonstrates the opposite.

 

Implications : a lot of actual humans have CotF blood, that explain a lot of traits of : some characters like exceptional beauty, longevity, clever mind, eyesight, dexterity, etc... // some cultures like the Naathis, Crannogmen, Lazhareens, etc, etc...

[BalerionTheCat]

Some of GRRM creatures are out of what "we", and Westeros maesters, would consider "natural", normal for any other creature. Of these we know the Fire Wyrms, living in the fires of Valyria, the Others, living in the ices of the North. So would be the Ice Spiders. Less known are the Shadows beyond Asshai. We would name these creatures: "magical".

It is unclear if the CotFs belong to the natural or unnatural lot. Anyway, some of them, the greenseers, are possessing unnatural abilities: Entering others mind. By linking to weirwoods, seeing the past. And in some imprecise way, thru green dreams, seeing the future. Because some humans also have these abilities, I would believe the CotFs are as normal as the humans. Only some, the greenseers, and in a lesser way the skin changers, are magical. The magic, given, fuelled by something.

The dragons are probably hybrids of Fire Wyrms and Wyverns. By the former gaining their magical fire property.

The wights are dead humans (or animals), now animated by something related to the Others. Or the Shadows (R'hllor) in some other cases.

Similarly to the greenseers, the Blood Mages and the high ranking Red Priests, would possess unnatural abilities, apparently associated with the Shadows. If The Blood Mages's magic come from the Shadows (or R'hllor), I would extrapolate the Greenseers magic comes from the Others (or is related to them). Anyway, there is I believe something between CotFs and Others.

All magics seem to source from the Shadows or the Others, the founts of opposite, antagonist magics. Whether they are the primal sources, or the servants of gods, R'hllor and the Great Other, is another question.

I don't suppose the Blood Mages got their magic by blood ties with the CotF. So I would not suppose blood ties with the CotFs are necessary to become greenseers. But living in the North, close to the Others... maybe.

[namesarehard]

On 6/30/2019 at 10:57 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Children are utterly alien compared to humans. They have a different number of digits on their hands, after all. Even apes and monkeys have five fingers.

I say there is zero chance of humans successfully interbreeding with them. The magical gifts were transferred through spiritual and perhaps blood sacrifice means. Not through hybridization of the two species.

They could have simply lost the last finger.

 

I think they're just another closely related species of human and they can interbreed like neanderthals and humans.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, namesarehard said:

They could have simply lost the last finger.

I think they're just another closely related species of human and they can interbreed like neanderthals and humans.

AFAIK, all mammals have 4 limbs with 5 fingers per limb. Some walking on 2 limbs, some on 4. Some with an atrophied 5th finger/toe. But one species doesn't "lose" a finger. As hard coded as 2 eyes.

By anteriority, I would believe the humans come from the CotFs. Not by natural evolution, but by some magical process. Probably not by the CotF themselves. Who then? The Others or their Master? Our masters too. Would explain why they became somewhat pissed off by what happened recently, or feel entiltled to some authority. Even to destroy us.

ETA:

BTW, I would bet the giants have 4 fingers/toes like the CotF and evolved naturally from the same ancestor. Their differences, a proof of the millions years of their existence.

[namesarehard]

On 7/2/2019 at 12:42 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

AFAIK, all mammals have 4 limbs with 5 fingers per limb. Some walking on 2 limbs, some on 4. Some with an atrophied 5th finger/toe.

That's what I meant. Humans may lose their little finger and toe some day.

[Vashon]

Tuf flew right up his own arsehole near the end of his life and made himself the perfect little vegan elfin people with wacky powers for fun and excitement. 

 

EDIT: On a more serious note, the Naathi are one of my favorite takes on nature loving hippie elves. 90% of all of fiction does little but expound on their inevitable death and how crap they are militarily, but the Plague Butterflies illustrate quite effectively how dangerous and obscenely unconquerable they could be if they didn't fuck around and just sicked disease ridden insects on you. And the Naathi just chill on their island.

[un_Autre_monde]

But do you think CotF are "mutant" humans ?

Do you think Theon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Cersei, Davos, Littlefinger, etc... have CotF among their ancestors ?