Jump to content
silverwolf22

cersei is wrong and what she thinks of the ymb and valonqar is unimportant

Recommended Posts

https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/185834157295/cersei-is-wrong-ymb-edition

Quote

In terms of prognosticating Maggy’s Prophecy, I’ve always been more invested in the Valonqar clause*, but to the extent that we talk about the YMB(Q), I’ve long been a fan of the idea of multiple women filling the YMBQ role. Sansa, Brienne, Margaery, Dany, Arianne Martell. They all cast her down and take her dearest in different ways.

But right now? My first choice for Younger More Beautiful is Brienne. JUST Brienne. And the reason why I like her for the YMB is precisely because it would give us one more chance to point and laugh at Cersei for getting so invested in her unchecked assumptions about Maggy’s choice of words. Cersei is So! Very! Sure! she’s up against a younger and more beautiful QUEEN fucking her shit up.

All Maggy said was “until there comes ANOTHER, young and more beautiful, to cast you down and” blah blah you know the tune. She didn’t say anything about another QUEEN. She just said…someone else, who’s younger and more beautiful, and we all know “beautiful” can mean a lot of things. Cersei thinks it refers to recognized Westerosi standards of physical beauty, so she’s all focused on Margaery but of course she hasn’t yet met Dany.

She remembered the maid of Tarth, a huge ugly shambling thing who dressed in man’s mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty means different things to different people. And wouldn’t it be funny if the girl who is mockingly called Brienne the Beauty ends up being the “younger and more beautiful” one who eats Cersei’s lunch? She doesn’t need to be a queen.

(I reserve the right to predict her being a provincial queen later, in the endgame. Cersei won’t be around to see that, though.)

*Euron Greyjoy’s still the best candidate for Valonqar! Cersei’s been so focused on her BROTHER being the killer, she’s never considered Maggy never actually told her what “valonqar” means.

 

(not to mention the prophecy it says the valonqar not her valonqar

https://makerkenzie.tumblr.com/post/185869508905/who-gives-a-fuck-what-cersei-thinks-of-the-ymb

Quote

Since I hit on Brienne as the singular YMB, I’ve also realized there are some things that aren’t really necessary in the general prophecy fulfillment.

Honestly, I don’t care whether Cersei understands how she made the prophecy a self-fulfilling one.

All the ways in which Brienne casts Cersei down and takes all she hold dear may not be apparent until long after Cersei’s dead. Fine by me. Cersei may not even get the message that Brienne the Beauty is the “younger and more beautiful” one. What matters is that we see it.

Same thing with the Valonqar. No matter who the killer is (and my money is still on Euron), Cersei may not connect the dots before her heart stops. What matters is that we, the audience, get to connect the dots. We see how Cersei’s attitude and actions led the killer’s hands to her pale white throat. That’s what makes a good story. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not to mention as gray area stated that when jojen made a prophechecy involving drowning it turned out to be the ironborn that caused it 

https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/166308805951/question-it-is-commonly-believed-that-jamie-is

Quote
    • From the day Cersei heard Maggy the Frog’s predictions on her life and, especially, death, she has been haunted by the idea that her brother would kill her. And if Maggy had actually said to her, “…and your younger brother will wrap his hands around your pale white throat,” it would have had the same effect on Cersei, and still allowed for the confusion around the second twin as a younger sibling. That Maggy insisted on using the Valyrian form of that noun, and nothing else, and she ignored Cersei’s request for a translation, suggests that Cersei has been fooled into thinking the killer must be one of her brothers. Maggy, as well as the Tyroshi Dwarf-Murderer, are behaving very, very strangely for trying to communicate a concept as simple as a younger sibling. The simplest explanation for their linguistic choices, especially the guy who isn’t trying to mess with Cersei’s head, is that they’re saying something that doesn’t translate to the Common Tongue. 

      *Per the Dothraki wiki’s page of High Valyrian vocabulary, valonqar also means a younger male cousin via father’s brother or mother’s sister, and the word for “twin” is idaña.

Quote

in The Forsaken' chapter GRRM read from The Winds of Winter with its description of Aeron's visions, including Euron Greyjoy sitting on the Iron Throne and'Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…'

Looking back at a quote in AFFC about part of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy to Cersei,‘And when your tears have DROWNED you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your PALE WHITE throat and choke the life from you.'I put the words that stood out to me thinking about this in bold. Cersei’s tears will have drowned her, like the Ironborn’s religious initiation.  like in jojens dream 

Quote

"It is the sea that comes." 
"The sea?" 
"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw the black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

the parts about the sea coming and drowned men was a prophecy fulfilled by the ironborn

when jojen had the vision of certain people at winterfell drowning it was caused by the ironborn 

 

The shadow in woman’s form is described as tall, we know she can be terrible, and I believe Cersei is described as tall in the books (jaime is pretty tall)

and the shadow’s hands are 'alive with pale white fire’, a fire described the same way as Cersei’s throat (pale white) in the prophecy.

(tearsdrownedyou is makerkenzie's sideblog

https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/165591530826/how-does-one-drown-in-her-own-tears

Quote
    • Now let’s get into that phrase in the prophecy, just before the valonqar: “When your tears have drowned you.”

      At first glance, this seems like a florid, though unremarkable way to describe Cersei’s grief at losing her children.

      I think that’s redundant, though. The only specificity in this phrase is that it tells us Cersei will live to see all three of her children in golden shrouds. That she’ll be devastated at losing her babies, hardly warrants a prophecy.

      Moreover, the verb tense is an interesting choice. “When your tears have drowned you” implies a state of completion. It suggests, at least, a certain passage of time following the death of Cersei’s last child. It speaks of a process that has run its course before the event of Cersei’s death.

      Most of all, though, I think that process is something much more sinister than a mother grieving the loss of her children.

      What do tears represent? Crying is not a self-injuring process; it is just the opposite. It is a normal, healthy, physiological response to stress. Tears are a sign of the body looking after itself in a moment of suffering. In ASOIAF, tears are occasionally coded as a weapon that a woman can use against others, but never are they expected to harm the woman herself. The image of Cersei being drowned by her own tears is a perversion. It suggests a process of enforced trauma beyond the pain of losing her children.

      Taking something that should be comforting and healing, and using it as a way to destroy someone? That sounds like what Euron does to people. That’s pretty much his entire value system boiled down to a precious turn of phrase. It could even be a fancy way to express what Euron is literally doing to Aeron in TWOW, as he uses the saltwater of the sea to dominate and degrade his brother the drowned priest.

      Euron is the one who will cause Cersei to drown in her own tears, and he will be the one to choke the life from her.

https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/165447801071/victarion-has-no-luck-with-wives

 

Quote
    • For a much more revealing example of Euron’s enthusiasm for fucking shit up, let’s take a look at what he did to Victarion.

      First, let’s get a little overview of what Victarion brings to the table:

      “When Balon was wed, it was me he sent to Harlaw to bring him back his bride. I led his longships into many a battle, and never lost but one. The first time Balon took a crown, it was me sailed into Lannisport to singe the lion’s tail. The second time, it was me he sent to skin the Young Wolf should he come howling home. All you’ll get from me is more of what you got from Balon. That’s all I have to say.”

      Martin, George R.R.. A Feast for Crows (A Song of Ice and Fire, Book 4) (p. 307). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

      What this shows us, at first glance, is that Victarion is a terrible politician. This is hardly the way to rally the troops. Underneath this weak-sauce pitch, however, is that Victarion cares about family. He respects the traditions surrounding family relationships. He sees himself, and expects others to see him, as a guy who looks out for his family. He was a dutiful brother to Balon and he thinks that’s important.

      So what did Euron do to make Victarion despise him?

      “I burnt the lion’s fleet,” Victarion insisted. “With mine own hands I flung the first torch onto his flagship.”

      “The Crow’s Eye hatched the scheme.” Asha put her hand upon his arm. “And killed your wife as well … did he not?”

      Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. “He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return …”

      “… so long as Balon lived?”

      Victarion looked at his fists. “She gave me horns. I had no choice.” Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow’s Eye laughed when I confronted him. “She came to me wet and willing,” he had boasted. “It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters.” But he could not tell her that.

      Martin, George R.R.. A Feast for Crows (A Song of Ice and Fire, Book 4) (p. 298). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

      Review: Euron raped Victarion’s third wife and got her pregnant. (We don’t have to take Euron at his word that she consented.) To let her live would have destroyed Victarion’s social standing among the Ironborn, so he beat his wife to death. Balon forced Euron to get lost and never return to the islands as long as Balon lived. That was the alternative to killing Euron, because no man is as accursed as the kinslayer. (Killing your wife because she’s been impregnated by someone else is another matter.)

      The incident haunts Victarion years later; he loved that woman, and he hasn’t touched another woman since he fed his last wife to the crabs. Euron attacked his brother by poisoning his self-image as a family man.

      This is what I think “when your tears have drowned you” means. Euron takes something that should be, at least, benign, and he turns it into a nightmare. Euron makes people drown in their tears.

 

https://tearsdrownedyou.tumblr.com/post/165415758056/what-about-the-books-though

Quote
    • We might argue: well, sure, Euron’s buddied up with Cersei on Game of Thrones, but that doesn’t mean he’ll go anywhere near her in the books. 

      Here’s a snippet from The Forsaken sample chapter in TWOW:

      The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood­-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed…

      “Long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire.” That sounds like Cersei. Dwarves capering for their amusement? That sounds like something Cersei would enjoy. 

      I think this is a positive sign that Euron’s teaming up with Cersei is not a show-only invention. He’ll become Cersei’s new enabler in TWOW, and she’ll be a useful idiot in his campaign to set the entire world on fire, and when she’s no longer useful to him, he’ll wrap his hands around her pale white throat and choke the life from her.

      Not before he shows her that everything in her life is worthless, though. Before he kills her, he’ll show her how it feels to drown in her own tears.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V
 "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."
 

and once again the prophecy goes THE valonqar not your/her valonqar the prophecy isnt limited to just cersei's biological younger brothers

Edited by silverwolf22

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure the Valyrian invented for the show counts as canon, but even if it does, Euron isn't a cousin to Cersei. So I don't see the connection there.

Valonqar, per the text, means little brother in High Valyrian. That has given rise to all kinds of ideas. Some insist that it's the "little brother" of Cersei's own children. Some say it's the "little brother" of the king she married. Others say it has to be someone of Valyrian blood, because otherwise GRRM wouldn't have used a Valyrian word there. And still others claim as long as it's somebody's little brother and Cersei dies, that's good enough.

If it's the brother of the king she marries, then the fortune can't be referring to Robert, because his brothers are dead. But Euron is a king, and has probably fathered at least 16 bastards. He also conveniently has a little brother who has a history of strangling women who sleep with Euron, and who is planning to make Dany (a younger, check, more beautiful, check, queen, check) his wife. That would tie YMBQ and valonqar together nicely. And really, when Euron finds out that Victarion stole his intended bride, he may well go and make an alliance with Cersei. 

I don't think Euron would require Cersei to convert to his religion. He doesn't seem to care about the Drowned God except for Kingsmoot campaigning purposes. What Euron does he seems to be doing entirely for himself. But I do like that interpretation, as it adds another layer to the whole thing.

And I do agree that what Cersei thinks has no bearing on the whole thing except accidentally causing it all to come true. She's the one who had three children with a king, but they aren't his kids (and may marry another king but have no children with him). She's the one who raised Joffrey to be a major jerk and then failed to control him. She's probably the reason Tommen will die. And no doubt she'll mess something up and get Myrcella killed too. She is the architect of her own downfall no matter who kills her. Also, if Jaime is the little brother who kills her, that will absolutely be because of everything she's done.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Valonqar, per the text, means little brother in High Valyrian. That has given rise to all kinds of ideas. Some insist that it's the "little brother" of Cersei's own children. Some say it's the "little brother" of the king she married. Others say it has to be someone of Valyrian blood, because otherwise GRRM wouldn't have used a Valyrian word there. And still others claim as long as it's somebody's little brother and Cersei dies, that's good enough.

I'm of the mind that 'little brother' could mean someone who belongs to a brotherhood of one sort or other.  I'm doubtful that Tyrion or Jaime with be the valonqar.  I think it is someone who has travelled to Valyria or beyond and was referred to as little brother in the valyrian tongue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm of the mind that 'little brother' could mean someone who belongs to a brotherhood of one sort or other.  I'm doubtful that Tyrion or Jaime with be the valonqar.  I think it is someone who has travelled to Valyria or beyond and was referred to as little brother in the valyrian tongue. 

Then why even bother having a prophecy in the first place?  Jaime is the only person who makes sense, because Cersei hates Tyrion and holds him to be the valonqar.  

If it's just any old person who happens to be a younger brother, then why do we care?  If Cersei is going to be killed by some random peasant with a pitchfork, why did we even have the prophecy in the first place?  It just doesn't make sense to include it - GRRM is writing a massive series and why not save yourself several thousand words if all your doing is have some completely random person who comes out of stage left and kills Cersei?  There isn't any pathos to that.  The whole point of the prophecy is that it is obsessing Cersei, and every action she takes to forestall it is actually bringing it closer.  That is what makes it resonate.  A huge portion of her character is her hatred of Tyrion, and likewise a large part of Tyrion's arc is his resentfulness towards his sister.  She has no relationship with Euron, or with any other "brother" like a member of the NW.  Why throw away five books of character and relationship building to have this bizarre person come on and kill her and then waltz out of the story?  No, the point is that Cersei believes it to be Tyrion, is so sure it's Tyrion, that her hatred of him (which predates the prophecy) blinds her to any other possibility.  Which in turn has led her to alienate every other character, including Jaime - thus, her own personal failings and prejudices are going to be her downfall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Then why even bother having a prophecy in the first place?  Jaime is the only person who makes sense, because Cersei hates Tyrion and holds him to be the valonqar.  

Well, Cersei obssesses about Tyrion as the valonqar and Jaime is also suspect in reader's minds; I don't think so for two reasons:  Paris McBride has said that GRRM doesn't do what is obvious and an archmaester of the Citadel has told us that prophecy will bite your cock off every time.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."
In other words, if you think you know what the prophecy means, think again.
Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

The valonqar seems to have two hands.  Does this rule out Jaime?

What about Marwyn himself.  He belongs to a brotherhood, is short in stature and has the biggest hands that Samwell has ever seen.  Do you think we've seen the last of him?  Is it possible that he was called valonqar by those he met on his travels?  Does he invade Cersei's dreams using glass candles?  He's connected to both Qyburn and Mirri Maaz Duur.  Do you suppose that Cersei is a 'treacherous woman' in his mind?

We still have at least two books to go.

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When your tears have drowned you means to me that her grief will lead her to embrace the drowned god.  An alliance with ironborn, to end the ironborn threat to the realm the cercei way, but also it will be a Thank You to Euron who will have taken out Highgarden for the Queen to earn her 'love' before coming to lift the seige of KL.   

Also, that doesn't have to be the end of Cercei.  The world is more magical every day.   Qyburn is standing nearby to reverse a death.  The dead come back stronger after ironborn drownings to begin with, what of a secret targ queen drowned just when the 'drowned god' may be waking for the first time in a long time (or whatever Power traditionally wears that name).   

If Euron completes a reaving by taking down the crown, won't the Blackfyre camp be extra torqued off?   That's their thing!   And all this would have taken place after Euron's current overture to Daenerys didn't work out to everyone' satisfaction, driving him to a non-dragon queen..... but perhaps with a dragon, which would give us a dragon-adjacent Queen cercei.....who loves to burn things.....and whom I believe possesses the blood to bond that thing with, along with the requisite madness.  I'm just saying.  Simply because the prophecy implies Euron would choke her to death, that doesn't mean Euron would necessarily outlive Cercei.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2019 at 10:37 AM, LynnS said:

I'm of the mind that 'little brother' could mean someone who belongs to a brotherhood of one sort or other.  I'm doubtful that Tyrion or Jaime with be the valonqar.  I think it is someone who has travelled to Valyria or beyond and was referred to as little brother in the valyrian tongue. 

How about a member of the Second Sons? A second son is a little brother. Brown Ben could do the job.

It could be someone with Valyrian blood, like Jon Snow, Aegon VII, or Gendry. And again, Brown Ben.

On 7/2/2019 at 4:44 AM, LynnS said:

The valonqar seems to have two hands.  Does this rule out Jaime?

It doesn't say two hands. It says hands. How did Shae die? Strangled by a chain of hands, a chain of office for the Hand. And Cersei has wanted Jaime to be Hand since AGOT. One golden chain, two lying whores. The Lannister boys; handless, noseless, girlfriendless.  IF Jaime kills Cersei, that's how he'll do it.

Otherwise my money is on Victarion.

Other fun choices that may have nothing to do with the YMBQ include:

Edmure Tully
Benjen Stark
Olyvar Frey, if he's strong enough 
Sandor Clegane
Brynden Tully
and a longshot...Bran, via Hodor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/2/2019 at 5:44 AM, LynnS said:

Well, Cersei obssesses about Tyrion as the valonqar and Jaime is also suspect in reader's minds; I don't think so for two reasons:  Paris McBride has said that GRRM doesn't do what is obvious and an archmaester of the Citadel has told us that prophecy will bite your cock off every time.

Yes... but that is an in-world reference.  It is Cersei who doesn't understand the prophecy, who is so focused on her one narrow interpretation that it inevitably will be false.  As with any tragic tale, she's creating her own monster.  Her constant demonization and belittling of Tyrion is a large part of what has turned him against his family.

As for GRRM "not doing what is obvious"... has there ever been something more misread?  GRRM deconstructs fantasy tropes.  That doesn't mean he's out to shock the reader with surprise twist endings; he isn't M Night Shyamalan.  The obvious thing her would be that Tyrion is indeed the valonqar.  

On 7/2/2019 at 5:44 AM, LynnS said:
The valonqar seems to have two hands.  Does this rule out Jaime?

What about Marwyn himself.  He belongs to a brotherhood, is short in stature and has the biggest hands that Samwell has ever seen.  Do you think we've seen the last of him?  Is it possible that he was called valonqar by those he met on his travels?  Does he invade Cersei's dreams using glass candles?  He's connected to both Qyburn and Mirri Maaz Duur.  Do you suppose that Cersei is a 'treacherous woman' in his mind?

This is my point.  Once you take out the fact that this is a prophecy about Cersei, and is specific to her circumstances and her choices, it becomes a stupid question.  It could be almost any male character in the series.  In other words, it loses any narrative or thematic potency.  What makes sense to us as readers, who are aware of tropes and the meta-narrative, is that Cersei is creating the conditions for fulfillment of the prophecy while working to stave it off - we're genre savvy readers, so to us it isn't unexpected, but to the characters in-universe it certainly is.  Why can't it be Qyburn; he used to be part of several brotherhoods and may even be a younger brother.  Why not Sandor Clegane?  Why not Gregor Clegane, on the assumption that "little" is an antiaptronym?

If you want to expand the field to that, fine.  But anyone reading these books looking for hidden characters and suspicious coincidences is missing the point.  Every twist and shocking event or reversal has been extremely well-previewed and foreshadowed, from the Red Wedding to R+L=J.  These things all have a significance beyond the author saying "gotcha!" and giggling like a child.  Cersei's eventual comeuppance will mean something, and there aren't many characters with whom she has an actual relationship; it almost has to be Jaime or Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How about a member of the Second Sons? A second son is a little brother. Brown Ben could do the job.

Well Maggy does specifically say that valonqar will wrap his hands around her throat and that does sound specific to me.  However, since you bring up Tyrion and his chain of hands; another interpretation could be that she will be killed by the valonqar's hand as in king's hand or whomever it is who has power over Cersei through another.  Something as ambiguous as death at the hands of another rather than strangled directly by the hands of another.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Why can't it be Qyburn; he used to be part of several brotherhoods

Yes, exactly why not Qyburn. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Yes... but that is an in-world reference.  It is Cersei who doesn't understand the prophecy, who is so focused on her one narrow interpretation that it inevitably will be false.  As with any tragic tale, she's creating her own monster.  Her constant demonization and belittling of Tyrion is a large part of what has turned him against his family.

Yes, exactly.

14 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

As for GRRM "not doing what is obvious"... has there ever been something more misread?  GRRM deconstructs fantasy tropes.  That doesn't mean he's out to shock the reader with surprise twist endings; he isn't M Night Shyamalan.  The obvious thing her would be that Tyrion is indeed the valonqar.  

Don't agree here.  He has said specifically that he couldn't stand it when audiences could figure out where something was going.  He said his mother could do this and he wanted to construct something that people couldn't figure out easily.  He wanted to surprise and delight people.  M.Night doesn't hold a candle to GRRM in that regard.  We've been told 'in world' that prophecy isn't what you think at first blush.  We see that by the many interpretations of prophecy by characters 'in world'.

14 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

If you want to expand the field to that, fine.  But anyone reading these books looking for hidden characters and suspicious coincidences is missing the point.

I am not missing the point.  Yes. Cersei is creating her own monster and Jaime/Tyrion are red herrings in my mind.  My point is that the valonqar means little brother in Valyrian.  This we all know.   That doesn't necessarily make it a familial relationship.  I'm not expanding the field to include anyone in a brotherhood.  I do favor the notion that 'little brother' is the way Valyrians referred to Marwyn on his travels to Asshai.  I think that Maggy is referring to another mage when she uses valonqar and then giggles about it.  Qyburn could very well be Marwyn's 'hand' when it comes to Cersei.  We don't know enough about Marwyn yet or how he is working behind the scenes.  But I suspect that he is doing just that.   

If you think you've got everything figured out already, you are giving yourself too much credit. I'm looking for something far more subtle.  A character that operates on the margins, a dangerous friend, someone the reader doesn't suspect at this point.  Someone who is literally and figuratively 'a little brother'.

I agree GRRM doesn't do things so he can giggle about it.   

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/8/2019 at 2:19 PM, LynnS said:

Well Maggy does specifically say that valonqar will wrap his hands around her throat and that does sound specific to me.  However, since you bring up Tyrion and his chain of hands; another interpretation could be that she will be killed by the valonqar's hand as in king's hand or whomever it is who has power over Cersei through another.  Something as ambiguous as death at the hands of another rather than strangled directly by the hands of another.

The plural kind of rules that out, unless their are two people working as co-hands, and even then sharing a strangling seems rather unlikely. Of course it depends on how literal the fortune is meant to be. Given how it's played out so far (three children, golden crowns/hair, and undoubtedly all golden shrouds, no kids with the king whoever it is), it's looking like the plural might be important.

That said, it would be interesting if Littlefinger and another were sharing the Handship and LF left Cersei's death up to the Vice Hand and the Vice Hand used too small a crystal so LF had to use his actual hands to speed things up. Little finger, little brother, like a brother to Catelyn, even though he never accepted it. If Cersei gets her hands on Sansa, I could definitely see LF jumping in to protect Cat 2.0.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The plural kind of rules that out, unless their are two people working as co-hands, and even then sharing a strangling seems rather unlikely. Of course it depends on how literal the fortune is meant to be. Given how it's played out so far (three children, golden crowns/hair, and undoubtedly all golden shrouds, no kids with the king whoever it is), it's looking like the plural might be important.

That said, it would be interesting if Littlefinger and another were sharing the Handship and LF left Cersei's death up to the Vice Hand and the Vice Hand used too small a crystal so LF had to use his actual hands to speed things up. Little finger, little brother, like a brother to Catelyn, even though he never accepted it. If Cersei gets her hands on Sansa, I could definitely see LF jumping in to protect Cat 2.0.

Well, I'm not really saying that more than one person does the actual strangulation.  What I mean to say is that the order to strangle her is given by someone else to a person acting as their hand.  Speaking of Catelyn, I came across this quote today:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V

Brienne shook off her hand. "No one knows."

"You're wrong," Catelyn said sharply. "Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black."

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cersei apparently believes the ymb is Margaery. But she is wrong. Neither are Daenerys or Sansa I believe.

Neither the Valonqar is Tyrion, as she believes. But to make sense, the little brother must be HER brother, not someone else brother.

Valonqar is a Valyrian word. Its usage should not be just pretty or arcane. The little brother should be a son or daughter of Valyria. If not Daenerys or Jon or Aegon, then Aerys' bastard. It could be Tyrion, but I don't this so. Besides, he would not be her true brother. Better Jaime. Both would have Valyria blood. The Valonqar word would be twice earned. A+J=C&J is also a common speculation. Cersei is as crazy as the craziest of the Targaryens. And Jaime is the one the life has been most ruined by Cersei. The one most deserving this justice. His hands can be, one of blood, one of gold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While you're busy thinking about what's "obvious", ponder the fact that Jaime is never called Cersei's little brother, or younger brother. I don't think it's stated outright that he was born second. You have to put it together from the fact that he was holding her foot, and they're not described as having been a difficult birth, so the twins were presumably born head-first and not breech.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Saer said:

While you're busy thinking about what's "obvious", ponder the fact that Jaime is never called Cersei's little brother, or younger brother. I don't think it's stated outright that he was born second. You have to put it together from the fact that he was holding her foot, and they're not described as having been a difficult birth, so the twins were presumably born head-first and not breech.

It would need both breech first for Jaime to be the first.

Anyway. Keep reading... ASoS, Tyrion IX:

Quote

If Dornish law applied in the west, she would be the heir to Casterly Rock in her own right. She and Jaime were twins, but Cersei had come first into the world, and that was all it took.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I was wondering, why is Stannis not put forward as a Valonqar candidate? After all, he is Robert’s younger brother. 

 

That would most likely be either because no one expects him to live long enough to take her down, or have time to do so before someone else does, or no one expects that he would strangle her. Stannis is far more likely to pronounce that she will be executed for her crimes and use his sword.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, I'm not really saying that more than one person does the actual strangulation.  What I mean to say is that the order to strangle her is given by someone else to a person acting as their hand.  Speaking of Catelyn, I came across this quote today:

 

Ah. I see what you meant then.

That Catelyn quote does rather make it fitting if Edmure or Brynden were to be the valonqar

14 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Valonqar is a Valyrian word. Its usage should not be just pretty or arcane. The little brother should be a son or daughter of Valyria.

 

If not Daenerys or Jon or Aegon, then Aerys' bastard. 

Or it could be that GRRM used a Valyrian word because 1) the character speaking is from the Free Cities and speaks a bastard Valyrian naturally and couldn't remember the translation into the common tongue for what she wanted to say, or 2) he didn't want the readers to figure out too easily who Cersei's killer will be. 

It can't be Daenerys. Maggy clearly said "the valonqar will wrap his hands around your pale, white throat." The valonqar must be male, and must also be either strong enough to strangle a grown woman or use the chain of hands. Everything else is speculation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That Catelyn quote does rather make it fitting if Edmure or Brynden were to be the valonqar

Or Arya.  Cersei is the last name on her kill list and she can pass as a boy if she chooses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2019 at 12:34 AM, LynnS said:

Don't agree here.  He has said specifically that he couldn't stand it when audiences could figure out where something was going.  He said his mother could do this and he wanted to construct something that people couldn't figure out easily.  He wanted to surprise and delight people.  M.Night doesn't hold a candle to GRRM in that regard.  We've been told 'in world' that prophecy isn't what you think at first blush.  We see that by the many interpretations of prophecy by characters 'in world'.

Right.  In world, Cersei thinks the prophecy is obvious.  She's certain it's Tyrion.  We, as readers, know that prophecy is more complicated than that.  Hence, Jaime.

On 7/9/2019 at 12:34 AM, LynnS said:

I am not missing the point.  Yes. Cersei is creating her own monster and Jaime/Tyrion are red herrings in my mind.  My point is that the valonqar means little brother in Valyrian.  This we all know.   That doesn't necessarily make it a familial relationship.  I'm not expanding the field to include anyone in a brotherhood.  I do favor the notion that 'little brother' is the way Valyrians referred to Marwyn on his travels to Asshai.  I think that Maggy is referring to another mage when she uses valonqar and then giggles about it.  Qyburn could very well be Marwyn's 'hand' when it comes to Cersei.  We don't know enough about Marwyn yet or how he is working behind the scenes.  But I suspect that he is doing just that.   

It does not have to be a familial relation, but you have to come up with something better.  Maybe Syrio Forel is someone's little brother.  Maybe Benjen Stark kills Cersei.  We have no knowledge that anyone, ever, called Marwyn "little brother," let alone Valyrians, who no longer exist as a self-identifying ethnic group.  Martin has yet to set up a surprise reveal that didn't have some kind of explicit foreshadowing.  Nothing we've seen or heard suggests Marwyn.  Or Qyburn.  Sometimes a mad scientist trope is just that.  It's an example of Cersei's bad judgement, but Cersei alreadys suspects everyone.  The one person she trusts, absolutely, is Jaime.

And we have plenty of hints about Marwyn, and what he's up to.  He's into magic.  He's been to Essos.  He's in the region where a psychopath is about to execute a massive blood sacrifice to try to ascend to godhood.  He's near the one character who is a credible eyewitness to the Others.  All that makes sense for what Marwyn is up to.  Not randomly assassinating a character he's had nothing to do with.  

On 7/9/2019 at 12:34 AM, LynnS said:

If you think you've got everything figured out already, you are giving yourself too much credit. I'm looking for something far more subtle.  A character that operates on the margins, a dangerous friend, someone the reader doesn't suspect at this point.  Someone who is literally and figuratively 'a little brother'.

I agree GRRM doesn't do things so he can giggle about it.   

GRRM is a Romantic.  He isn't creating twist endings for the thrills.  They're supposed to mean something, thematically or narratively.  Having a random person walk up and shank Cersei doesn't do any of that.  You know what does?  Having her spend her whole life demonizing her deformed brother, assuming he's the valonqar solely because of her preconceived prejudices.  Having her spend her whole life in an incestuous, treasonous, personality-warping affair with her beloved brother.  Always assuming the brother she hates will be the one to fulfill the prophecy because of all the ways she's been horrible to him, never realizing that in conspiring to destroy her other little brother's life, even inadvertently, she'd create the conditions for the prophecy to come about.

This goes back to my point about in-universe vs reader expectations.  You think Jaime is "too obvious" of a candidate to be the valonqar, but Cersei doesn't.  My underlying question, I guess, is this - why even have the prophecy if it isn't Jaime?  If Marwyn is going to kill Cersei, or Qyburn, then what was the point?  This is a massive series which GRRM is clearly struggling to write.  Why include something so extraneous, such a waste of space?  There is no narrative or thematic payoff to some random "little brother" killing Cersei.  There are plenty of other ways to make Marwyn or Qyburn or whoever have a reason to go after her.  For it to mean anything, it has to be someone Cersei has a familial relationship with, because after all, it's a prophecy about her.  If it isn't specific to her relationships, then it isn't relevant.  It's Cersei's little brother, and the payoff is that she's always relied on Jaime because she's always viewed them as one soul in two bodies, and he'll be the one to kill her, having realized that she never cared about him except in the sense she viewed him as a part of herself and her own ego, much like how she loves her own children as extensions of herself and her self-image and not as individual human beings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×