cersei is wrong and what she thinks of the ymb and valonqar is unimportant

[Lady Blizzardborn]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or Arya.  Cersei is the last name on her kill list and she can pass as a boy if she chooses.

IMO that would be a cheap trick, especially if it involves her taking someone's face. And I don't think Arya is going to have the hand and upper body strength to strangle a grown woman, no matter how boyish she looks. I don't think the chain comes into play unless it's Jaime, because of his missing hand.

Four or five others are on the list and still alive. And at least four of the people on the list who are dead got that way without Arya being involved. She also wants to put the bad Freys on the list but doesn't know their names, and Lady Stoneheart is picking them off one by one. 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

IMO that would be a cheap trick, especially if it involves her taking someone's face. And I don't think Arya is going to have the hand and upper body strength to strangle a grown woman, no matter how boyish she looks. I don't think the chain comes into play unless it's Jaime, because of his missing hand.

Four or five others are on the list and still alive. And at least four of the people on the list who are dead got that way without Arya being involved. She also wants to put the bad Freys on the list but doesn't know their names, and Lady Stoneheart is picking them off one by one. 

Fair enough.   This is a curious statement:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"A very skilled assassin."

"There are such. I used to dream that one day I'd be rich enough to send a Faceless Man after my sweet sister."

 

It does seem a bit too obvious though, doesn't it?

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

IMO that would be a cheap trick, especially if it involves her taking someone's face. And I don't think Arya is going to have the hand and upper body strength to strangle a grown woman, no matter how boyish she looks. I don't think the chain comes into play unless it's Jaime, because of his missing hand.

Four or five others are on the list and still alive. And at least four of the people on the list who are dead got that way without Arya being involved. She also wants to put the bad Freys on the list but doesn't know their names, and Lady Stoneheart is picking them off one by one. 

There is also more to the prophecy.  We are given a timeframe.

Quote

Cersei: When will I wed the prince?

Maggy: Never. You will wed the king.
Cersei: I will be queen, though?

Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.[1]

And this curious statement:

Quote

Melara: Will I marry Jaime?
Maggy: Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close.[1]

 

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

We have no knowledge that anyone, ever, called Marwyn "little brother," let alone Valyrians, who no longer exist

Where is this coming from? I only found this, which is speculation from thin air:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150966-the-valenquor/&do=findComment&comment=8175072

8 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Or it could be that GRRM used a Valyrian word because 1) the character speaking is from the Free Cities and speaks a bastard Valyrian naturally and couldn't remember the translation into the common tongue for what she wanted to say, or 2) he didn't want the readers to figure out too easily who Cersei's killer will be. 

1) Possibly Maggy’s wanting to look smart... Cheap, Better if the word was a true hint. Like "little brother", a shame if it designates half the world.

2) Tyrion or Arya or fAegon are obvious enough candidates. IMO, GRRM is more hiding his plans by providing "obvious answers" we never question, than by removing hints completely, or so it doesn't mean anything. 

[cpg2016]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

And this curious statement:

Why is that curious?  It's pretty self-explanatory.  Or are you of the opinion that Marwyn pushed Melara Heatherspoon down the well while wearing Cersei's face, because he is really a Faceless Man?  I mean, obviously Marwyn is responsible for all other major actions or potential events in the novels, so it makes sense!  I believe "Marwyn" actually means "guy who pushes little girls into wells" in Valyrian.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Why is that curious?  It's pretty self-explanatory.  Or are you of the opinion that Marwyn pushed Melara Heatherspoon down the well while wearing Cersei's face, because he is really a Faceless Man?  I mean, obviously Marwyn is responsible for all other major actions or potential events in the novels, so it makes sense!  I believe "Marwyn" actually means "guy who pushes little girls into wells" in Valyrian.

Yes, you're right, I forgot.  That was Cersei she was referring to.  There is no need to be disrespectful.  Or were you demonstrating your superior manners in public discourse?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/10/2019 at 4:08 PM, LynnS said:

It does seem a bit too obvious though, doesn't it?

Yes it does. Plus so far we haven't seen any FM do strangling. 

On 7/10/2019 at 4:22 PM, LynnS said:

There is also more to the prophecy.  We are given a timeframe.

True, but the time frame is arguably flexible. Does the YMBQ take all that she holds dear period? Or all that she holds dear at the time the YMBQ shows up? The only thing we know for certain, aside from the valonqar being male and supposedly a little brother, is that he won't kill Cersei until after Tommen and Myrcella are dead. Well, that and someone's going to kill Cersei. If the entire fortune was bogus (which I doubt, given that Melara's being scarily accurate) we'd still know someone will off Cersei.

On 7/11/2019 at 12:28 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

1) Possibly Maggy’s wanting to look smart... Cheap, Better if the word was a true hint. Like "little brother", a shame if it designates half the world.

2) Tyrion or Arya or fAegon are obvious enough candidates. IMO, GRRM is more hiding his plans by providing "obvious answers" we never question, than by removing hints completely, or so it doesn't mean anything.

1) Why would Maggy want to look smart? Why would she care what a couple of 10 year old girls think of her? And how would she know what would make her look smart to them? She's a fortune teller sure, but she's not all-powerful.

2. Agreed. Unless it's Jaime, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at who the actual valonqar is.

3. A fun, extra option: Cersei's septa was wrong about what the word means, and GRRM didn't bother correcting the show's linguist because they ditched the whole thing in the end, along with several rather major prophecy points. Admittedly, not that likely an option, but it's too early to rule it out completely.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes it does. Plus so far we haven't seen any FM do strangling. 

True, but the time frame is arguably flexible. Does the YMBQ take all that she holds dear period? Or all that she holds dear at the time the YMBQ shows up? The only thing we know for certain, aside from the valonqar being male and supposedly a little brother, is that he won't kill Cersei until after Tommen and Myrcella are dead. Well, that and someone's going to kill Cersei. If the entire fortune was bogus (which I doubt, given that Melara's being scarily accurate) we'd still know someone will off Cersei.

1) Why would Maggy want to look smart? Why would she care what a couple of 10 year old girls think of her? And how would she know what would make her look smart to them? She's a fortune teller sure, but she's not all-powerful.

2. Agreed. Unless it's Jaime, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at who the actual valonqar is.

3. A fun, extra option: Cersei's septa was wrong about what the word means, and GRRM didn't bother correcting the show's linguist because they ditched the whole thing in the end, along with several rather major prophecy points. Admittedly, not that likely an option, but it's too early to rule it out completely.

I appreciate your comments and your thinking on the matter Lady B.  I do think it's still an open question for many people.  I have some other thoughts, but they may be too radical for this audience.  LOL.  I'm happy to leave you with the last words on the subject.

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Actually I'm trying to shame you into doing your research before wasting people's time.  You've floated a bunch of nonsense theories, which is of course your prerogative, but the very least you could do is actually have your facts and understanding of the narrative straight before spouting off.

There are plenty of interesting theories and discrepancies in this series to debate and discuss.  Being silly is fine, and being wrong on occasion is only human, but putting out a complete waste of time idiotic theory and then not even having the decency to understand the argument you're making is insulting to everyone else who spends time reading what you're writing.

Who the hell do you think you are?  Shame me.  That's the wrong answer.  The fact is that I knew my post about Cersei was wrong. But I wanted to see what you would do and you did exactly what I thought you'd do.  You aren't interested in discussion; you are looking for someone you can publicly ridicule and deride. I can see that kind of bullshit coming a mile away. Is that the only way you can be happy with yourself?  Do you you feel important now.  That's immature, a flaw in you character.  That's shameful behavior on your part.   You are going on mute.  I have no time for this kind of nonsense.  

[BalerionTheCat]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

1) Why would Maggy want to look smart?

I said cheap. Meaning I don't believe it. I meant "smart before us, readers". An adept of Asshai, a true mage dealing with the Shadows.

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Cersei's septa was wrong about what the word means, and GRRM didn't bother correcting the show's linguist

If the septa was wrong, it would be intended by GRRM. He would not correct the show's linguist. Disappointing trick IMO. Better to say nothing. Cesei doesn't need more to suspect Tyrion. IMO, the word is meant to have importance.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I said cheap. Meaning I don't believe it. I meant "smart before us, readers". An adept of Asshai, a true mage dealing with the Shadows.

Oh, as in you completely misunderstood my comment? Because nothing I said remotely resembled the character trying to look smart, or the author trying to make the character look smart to the readers.

I'm not getting the Asshai and shadows reference either, as again that had nothing to do with what I said. But I'm also having a slow day, so there's that.

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

If the septa was wrong, it would be intended by GRRM. He would not correct the show's linguist. Disappointing trick IMO. Better to say nothing. Cesei doesn't need more to suspect Tyrion. IMO, the word is meant to have importance.

I said it was unlikely.

 

4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Actually I'm trying to shame you into doing your research before wasting people's time.  You've floated a bunch of nonsense theories, which is of course your prerogative, but the very least you could do is actually have your facts and understanding of the narrative straight before spouting off.

There are plenty of interesting theories and discrepancies in this series to debate and discuss.  Being silly is fine, and being wrong on occasion is only human, but putting out a complete waste of time idiotic theory and then not even having the decency to understand the argument you're making is insulting to everyone else who spends time reading what you're writing.

Please direct us all to your theories on this forum. But keep in mind that the person you're lambasting did not start this thread so if you have a problem with the premise of the thread, talk to the OP. A comment in someone else's thread is not, nor should it be considered "a theory." And is therefore not required to be presented in a certain way.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That would most likely be either because no one expects him to live long enough to take her down, or have time to do so before someone else does, or no one expects that he would strangle her. Stannis is far more likely to pronounce that she will be executed for her crimes and use his sword.

There is a poison, strangler, used by Cressen in an attempt to kill Melisandre, it’s what made me think of Stannis as a Valonqar in the first place.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There is a poison, strangler, used by Cressen in an attempt to kill Melisandre, it’s what made me think of Stannis as a Valonqar in the first place.

Yes but that was Cressen, not Stannis. Stannis himself doesn't have access to the strangler, and the fortune is quite clear that hands are doing the strangling. If the crystal didn't do the job fast enough, say she didn't drink enough of the wine, someone could finish Cersei off manually, so to speak, and it would be fitting for her to die the same way Joffery did, but it's still more likely that her death is going to be a straight strangulation. Maggy's words were awfully accurate--marry a king, three children (sixteen for the king), golden hair, golden crowns, golden shrouds--she seems to be pretty literal about a lot of it. 

Stannis is also not the kind of man who would use poison. He would consider it dishonorable. Remember his approval when Jon executed Janos himself, with a sword? I'm not ruling it out entirely, but I don't see Stannis strangling anyone unless he was really, really incensed beyond reason. And even then a sword is more natural to him and quicker.

If the crystal is involved it's far more likely that Sansa is the YMBQ because she's the one with a hairnet full of stranglers and at least two men who would kill to keep her safe (Littlefinger and Sandor). That is assuming the valonqar and the YMBQ are connected, which they may or may not be.

[Impbread]

On 7/7/2019 at 10:53 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

How about a member of the Second Sons? A second son is a little brother. Brown Ben could do the job.

It could be someone with Valyrian blood, like Jon Snow, Aegon VII, or Gendry. And again, Brown Ben.

It doesn't say two hands. It says hands. How did Shae die? Strangled by a chain of hands, a chain of office for the Hand. And Cersei has wanted Jaime to be Hand since AGOT. One golden chain, two lying whores. The Lannister boys; handless, noseless, girlfriendless.  IF Jaime kills Cersei, that's how he'll do it.

Otherwise my money is on Victarion.

Other fun choices that may have nothing to do with the YMBQ include:

Edmure Tully
Benjen Stark
Olyvar Frey, if he's strong enough 
Sandor Clegane
Brynden Tully
and a longshot...Bran, via Hodor

I like Edmure 

[cpg2016]

On 7/12/2019 at 2:22 PM, LynnS said:

Who the hell do you think you are?  Shame me.  That's the wrong answer.  The fact is that I knew my post about Cersei was wrong. But I wanted to see what you would do and you did exactly what I thought you'd do.  You aren't interested in discussion; you are looking for someone you can publicly ridicule and deride. I can see that kind of bullshit coming a mile away. Is that the only way you can be happy with yourself?  Do you you feel important now.  That's immature, a flaw in you character.  That's shameful behavior on your part.   You are going on mute.  I have no time for this kind of nonsense.  

Hahahaha.  Sure you did.

Let me make something clear.  Stupidity and ignorance are not qualities or characteristics to be cherished.  They should be derided. 

Shaming you doesn't make me feel important.  It is genuinely upsetting.  Even to the extent this is a fansite with no "relevance" to the real world, attitudes like yours are harmful and deserve our opprobrium.  If you are deliberately spreading false information, even in a low-importance context like this (and please, lets be real, that ploy is as transparent as a window pane), then of course you deserve to be called out on it.  It's called lying.  We teach our kids not to do it and discipline them when they do.  It's grounds for going to jail in some contexts.  You can try and mount up on your moral high horse all you want, but at the end of the day you're a liar or you're ignorant.  Those are both bad qualities, without exception or extenuation, and I feel like I've done a service to the community in making them aware that you are proud of being either, or both.

[cpg2016]

On 7/12/2019 at 5:53 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Please direct us all to your theories on this forum. But keep in mind that the person you're lambasting did not start this thread so if you have a problem with the premise of the thread, talk to the OP. A comment in someone else's thread is not, nor should it be considered "a theory." And is therefore not required to be presented in a certain way.

Wait, what?  Of course a comment in someone's thread can be a theory.  An alternate theory.  The OP can post Theory X, and a respondent can post Theory Y or Z.  I have no problem with the premise of the thread; the valonqar doesn't "have" to be Jaime (though I've made it clear I think it is).  I have a bunch of objections to random theories like "Marwyn is the valonqar" but the only thing in my mind that deserves a sharp and rude response is being wrong in respect to a fundamental piece of evidence that supports such a theory.  That is a waste of yours and my time.

And I'm not lambasting them because I don't like their theory, I'm lambasting them because the premise on which that theory is predicated is wrong.  Or, in the hilarious attempt of @LynnS to justify not knowing what s/he was talking about, that it was some kind of honeypot trap in order to get me to reveal my "true character", a straight up lie.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask people to do the bare minimum of fact checking before posting.  One can present in any way one chooses, but people who are wrong or are deliberately misinforming others deserve to be called out.  

And you're more than welcome to go through my theories on this forum.  Pretty sure you just have to click on my username.  I can very confidently assure you that if I am ever called out for being wrong, that I acknowledge it and move on, not act morally indignant that someone dared to question my knowledge

[Lady Blizzardborn]

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Wait, what?  Of course a comment in someone's thread can be a theory.  An alternate theory.  The OP can post Theory X, and a respondent can post Theory Y or Z.  

Uh no. One comment is not a theory. A theory is organized, hopefully sensible, and text-supported. A comment can be an off-the-cuff hey-I-just-thought-of-something idea. No one expects a single comment to be as well laid out as an actual theory.  A theory requires research to verify certain points. A comment can include something remembered wrong, or leave out something forgotten. It would be ridiculous to have the same standards for comments as for theories.

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 I have a bunch of objections to random theories like "Marwyn is the valonqar" but the only thing in my mind that deserves a sharp and rude response is being wrong in respect to a fundamental piece of evidence that supports such a theory.  That is a waste of yours and my time.

My mind disagrees. The only thing that deserves a rude or sharp response would be something rude or sharp. One can disagree or point out a flaw without being rude or sharp.

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask people to do the bare minimum of fact checking before posting.  One can present in any way one chooses, but people who are wrong or are deliberately misinforming others deserve to be called out.  

Posting a theory, sure. Discussing something in a thread? Not so much. Have you never remembered something wrong, or forgotten part of the text after reading it years ago? I've read the rules for posting and fact-checking is not listed as a requirement. 

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

One can present in any way one chooses, but people who are wrong or are deliberately misinforming others deserve to be called out.  

Most people who are wrong don't know they are. They aren't deliberately misinforming anyone. And they deserve to be corrected, not "called out" as if they'd committed some sin.

Part of the beauty of discussing things here is getting to bounce ideas off of people, sometimes people who remember the story better than you do, and finding out what works as a possibility and what doesn't. Why would you think anyone is deliberately trying to misinform anyone about a book series that isn't even finished? Particularly on a forum that is populated by avid fans of said series, who would be much more difficult to fool than your average chatroom crowd?

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

And you're more than welcome to go through my theories on this forum.  Pretty sure you just have to click on my username.  I can very confidently assure you that if I am ever called out for being wrong, that I acknowledge it and move on, not act morally indignant that someone dared to question my knowledge

It wasn't that you questioned her knowledge, it was the way you did it. You were condescending and rude, and that wasn't necessary. I've been away from the forums for a while but I seem to recall that a certain base level of civility used to be par for the course here. If things have changed in my absence, I'll apologize for being out-of-date.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I wasn't that you questioned her knowledge, it was the way you did it. You were condescending and rude, and that wasn't necessary. I've been away from the forums for a while but I seem to recall that a certain base level of civility used to be par for the course here. If things have changed in my absence, I'll apologize for being out-of-date

I don't think you are out of date at all & that poster was absolutely in the wrong. Rude & CONDESCENDING! 

There just is no reason or justification for being ridiculed over making a mistake whether intentional or not.