how I believe brienne being a descendant of duncan the tall came to be

[The Sleeper]

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Why does Dunc need to deflower one of the Targaryen princesses? He could have just married the youngest daughter of Tarth or some cousin, had children with her, then due to circumstances at some point, those children or their children become the rules of Tarth. 

It would be like a Harry the Heir type of situation. His grandmother was Jon Arryn's sister and he would have been far out the line of succession if Jon Arryn had had more than the one sickly son or if his nephew or cousin had lived.

That is certainly possible. However the shortest route to placing Dunk in the Tarth family tree along with the Targaryen connections mentioned in WoIaF is him marrying a Targaryen princess and that seems almost unthinkable outside some type of shotgun wedding scenario. 

It doesn't mean that this is the case. Hell, for all we know Brienne and her father go by "of Tarth" because one of their ancestors did not have an actual last name.

I'm sure there are other workable scenarios. 

[Megorova]

12 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

However the shortest route to placing Dunk in the Tarth family tree along with the Targaryen connections mentioned in WoIaF is him marrying a Targaryen princess

The shortest route for Dunk to have connections with Targaryens, is for him to be son of Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre.

Possibly, he hooked up with Nan, during his visit North in the "She-wolves of Winterfell". Nan is probably Alysanne Stark, younger sister of Willam Stark. She was wet nurse of Willam's son, Brandon, from his first marriage, with Lyanne Glover.

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 7:28 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The tragedy in his past is his failed romance w/ Rhaella. 

That does not, by itself, seem an adequate explanation for the clue GRRM gave us from Jaime in AFFC.

"... something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death".

You've obviously decided to adopt Barristan's clue and ignore Jaime's clue.  But I say both are a part of a larger picture.  GRRM is not going to go to the trouble of planting two widely separated Bonifer clues in two widely separated chapters if he isn't going somewhere with it.

[Platypus Rex]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Hasty and Rhaella likely never had an affair in the first place.

Maybe.  But something's going on with Bonifer.  GRRM is not going to go around planting widely separated Bonifer clues in widely separate locations and POV chapters if he's not up to something.  So if you have a better Bonifer theory, I'm all ears.  But if you're angle is going to be "move along there's nothing to see here," I'm just not going to buy that.

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They were enamored with each other, but Hasty is a very pious man, he is not likely to defile a royal princess by having sex with her outside of marriage.

You think?  Judging from examples of other pious people we have seen in the GRRM-verse (such as Lancel and Septon Meribald), I'm not sure that's an airtight argument.  Anyway, it is at least hinted that Bonifer underwent some kind of life-changing experience (as did, for instance, Lancel); so I don't think we can safely assume he was all that pious originally.  And Jaime vaguely recalls that what changed Bonifer may have involved some kind of disgrace.

And look at the name GRRM chose to give him:  "Hasty".  That does not seem to me to guarantee that he was the ultimate in patience and self-reserve.

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And Rhaella was apparently a very dutiful woman who looked down on and punished the sluts who shared the beds of her brother-husband.

I don't recall this at all.  Source?

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That also makes it very unlikely she would have been willing to have an affair with Hasty.

I don't think that follows at all, even if the premise is true, which AFAIK it is not.  In any event, it is not necessary to suppose the affair occurred DURING the marriage.  I don't think we can rule out, from the timeline, that it was only 9 months later.

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In addition, there is absolutely no evidence that they ever had an affair.

Well there is certainly some evidence that Rhaegar might not be Aerys's son.  Aerys married his already-inbred sibling, who must share nearly 80% of his genetic makeup.  It's the next best thing to marrying your own clone.  Predictably, the children were deformed, sickly and dying.  The one who was healthy, and did not die (Viserys) turned out to be a near clone of his father, which is more or less what you would expect when your wife shares 80% of your genes.  Who does not fit this pattern?  Tall, healthy, talented Rhaegar Targaryen, seemingly born during the first year of Aerys and Rhaella's marriage or not too long thereafter.

Instant success, followed by 20+ years of failure (except Viserys, if you want to count him as a non-failure).  Go figure.

Aerys accused Rhaella of adultery, when he refused to accept that all the deformed, sickly and dying children were his own children.  That there is an ironic clue.  The deformed children, and the mad child, ARE his own.  It is the healthy, talented, sane one, that is not his. 

Curious parallels in this whole setup to the tale of the Unworthy, Naerys and the Dragonknight.

Rhaegar is taller than Viserys.  You know who else is taller than Viserys?  Bonifer Hasty.

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If feelings were enough to indicate an affair, we could just as well delude ourselves into insisting that Ashara and Barristan must have had some kind of affair.

Well, I'm sure GRRM is up to something with Barristan and Ashara.  But no, it does not need to be an affair, as long as GRRM has some other plot purpose.

Same with Bonifer and Rhaella.  But of course, with Bonifer and Rhaella, the love was mutual.  That's a significant distinction, and it rather increases the odds that the love was indeed consummated.

[Platypus Rex]

Also, the Hasty coat of arms can be thought of as a simplified stylized version of one element of Dunk's shield, suggestive of the idea of a shooting star against a purple backdrop.

[Castellan]

22 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Perhaps the clue he had in mind, from the same volume, was the introduction of a very-tall, very honorable, ex-tournament knight, old enough to have known Ser Duncan, who is haunted by some mysterious tragedy.

each to their own, but .. bollocks! that fussy old git is no descendent of Duncan. I think you have to stretch your neck a long way to look past Brienne and cast someone else in the role.

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

each to their own, but .. bollocks! that fussy old git is no descendent of Duncan. I think you have to stretch your neck a long way to look past Brienne and cast someone else in the role.

I rather think Duncan would be proud to see his descendant leading the only military force in Westeros that does not rape.  But if you prefer the rapists, well, to each his own.  I mean, sure, Jaime has contempt for him, and calls him Baelor Butthole, and approvingly repeats sneering jokes about him gelding his men (because they do not rape, like good soldiers should).  But Jaime is a villain,

Now GRRM is an atheist, or at least an agnostic, and I think he regards Bonifer's religiosity as being to some extent a character flaw.  But I don't think he shares the absolutely withering contempt and hatred for Christians (and by extension, for members of the Faith of the Seven) that is so common in progressive circles, and in much of modern culture, and on this forum.  In interviews, he has made positive remarks about the role of Catholicism in history and human events.

Now, "descendant of Dunk" is not really a "role".  Each descendant of Dunk will be  a character in their own right.  Bonifer's role, I think is to provide that generational link between Dunk and whoever the modern descendants of Dunk (that is, anyone who turns out to be a descendant of Rhaegar) happens to be.  Or to put it another way, Ii think Bonifer will make a worthy old grandpa for whoever the modern descendant of Dunk turns out to be.

I don't think Brienne is a modern clone of Duncan, exactly.  But anyhow, I think that if you're stretching your neck to look for clones of Dunk, you are barking up the wrong tree.  GRRM's mind does not work like that.  Have the descendants of Egg been clones of Egg?

 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Maybe.  But something's going on with Bonifer.  GRRM is not going to go around planting widely separated Bonifer clues in widely separate locations and POV chapters if he's not up to something.  So if you have a better Bonifer theory, I'm all ears.  But if you're angle is going to be "move along there's nothing to see here," I'm just not going to buy that.

Hasty is important for the future. He is both a very pious man and a man with close ties to House Targaryen. He and his Holy Hundred hold Harrenhal right now - the High Septon has restored the Warrior's Sons and Prince Aegon has returned to Westeros.

What do you think they will do now? It is rather obvious, don't you think? And the fact that Orton Merryweather suggested that Cersei make Hasty castellan of Harrenhal also imply that he and Taena are Varys'/the Golden Company's pets (Orton met Taena during his exile and both he and his father - who is dead - may have served with the Golden Company before Robert allowed them to return home).

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Anyway, it is at least hinted that Bonifer underwent some kind of life-changing experience (as did, for instance, Lancel); so I don't think we can safely assume he was all that pious originally.  And Jaime vaguely recalls that what changed Bonifer may have involved some kind of disgrace.

No, it is said that he lost all joy in tourneys when it was announced that Princess Rhaella would marry Prince Aerys.

Considering that chances are pretty high that Jaehaerys and Aegon V didn't exactly announce the wedding and then go through with it a fortnight later (one would want to have a lot of guests at a royal wedding, etc.) it seems nearly confirmed that Rhaella only get pregnant with Rhaegar after her wedding to Aerys - meaning there is no reason to believe Rhaegar's father is not Aerys.

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't recall this at all.  Source?

The sidebar about the rumors that Joanna Lannister may have been one of Aerys II's mistresses. It is quite clear that the queen did not approve when her ladies became the king's sluts.

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't think that follows at all, even if the premise is true, which AFAIK it is not.  In any event, it is not necessary to suppose the affair occurred DURING the marriage.  I don't think we can rule out, from the timeline, that it was only 9 months later.

By the standards of this world, Rhaella still would be a slut if she had an affair before/outside of marriage, no?

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well there is certainly some evidence that Rhaegar might not be Aerys's son.  Aerys married his already-inbred sibling, who must share nearly 80% of his genetic makeup.  It's the next best thing to marrying your own clone.  Predictably, the children were deformed, sickly and dying.  The one who was healthy, and did not die (Viserys) turned out to be a near clone of his father, which is more or less what you would expect when your wife shares 80% of your genes.  Who does not fit this pattern?  Tall, healthy, talented Rhaegar Targaryen, seemingly born during the first year of Aerys and Rhaella's marriage or not too long thereafter.

The Targaryens married their sisters for thousands of years. Some of them had issues producing healthy offspring, but they usually got around to produce enough children to continue the bloodline. And the pattern that healthy and talented and able-bodied children stand beside freakish, mad, and sickly siblings is also a well-known trend. Just think of the sons of Daeron II, for example. Two healthy and powerful warriors in Baelor and Maekar, and two mad/sickly princes in Aerys I and Rhaegel.

For your case you have to be able to make a case that (1) Hasty and Rhaella had an actual affair (which is not even implied by Selmy), and (2) that they had an affair around the time of Rhaegar's conception (which would have to be after the wedding, or else Aerys II would have had difficulties believing he was the father of Rhaegar).

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Aerys accused Rhaella of adultery, when he refused to accept that all the deformed, sickly and dying children were his own children.  That there is an ironic clue.  The deformed children, and the mad child, ARE his own.  It is the healthy, talented, sane one, that is not his. 

And he was stupid enough to not do the math? And Hasty never showed his face to be close to his son? You also do recall that Aerys II had rather severe issues with his sons shortly before the Rebellion. Branding him a bastard would have been the ideal way to get rid of him. But he apparently never did that.

I mean, if you can figure this thing out then there would be sufficient evidence for the people involved, too.

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Curious parallels in this whole setup to the tale of the Unworthy, Naerys and the Dragonknight.

Which is basically also just nonsense.

And, no. There are not really such parallels - all we have is that Rhaella and Hasty may have had a thing for each other. Just as Daenerys and Daemon Blackfyre possibly having a thing for each other doesn't mean Maron Martell's oldest son is Daemon Blackfyre's son.

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Rhaegar is taller than Viserys.  You know who else is taller than Viserys?  Bonifer Hasty.

And Rhaegar looks exactly like Viserys III aside from the eye color and height, right? There is nothing of Hasty in him.

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, I'm sure GRRM is up to something with Barristan and Ashara.  But no, it does not need to be an affair, as long as GRRM has some other plot purpose.

I don't think this has to go anywhere aside from showing that Selmy actually is a normal man with normal desires and dreams - and Ashara Dayne was apparently very beautiful. It is quite clear that he never made a move so his interest in her should have as much plot relevance as that of any man who is in love with somebody and keeps this completely to himself.

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Same with Bonifer and Rhaella.  But of course, with Bonifer and Rhaella, the love was mutual.  That's a significant distinction, and it rather increases the odds that the love was indeed consummated.

This is our source:

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The old knight inclined his head. “The queen your mother was always mindful of her duty.” [...] “As a girl, though … she was once smitten with a young knight from the stormlands who wore her favor at a tourney and named her queen of love and beauty. A brief thing.”
“What happened to this knight?”
“He put away his lance the day your lady mother wed your father. Afterward he became most pious, and was heard to say that only the Maiden could replace Queen Rhaella in his heart. His passion was impossible, of course. A landed knight is no fit consort for a princess of royal blood.”

There is nothing about consummation here.

And you have to keep in mind that Rhaella Targaryen was only born in 245/246 AC, meaning she was only 13-14 when she gave birth to Rhaegar, and possibly 11-12 when she was married (which may have been in 257-258 AC, depending when exactly Rhaella got pregnant) and even younger when she caught Hasty's eye.

Chances are very low that a girl this young was enamored enough to want to fuck, don't you think?

Hasty being a knight already means he must have been considerably older than Rhaella, meaning this would have been a very weird love affair if it was a love affair at all.

One can save this thing as non-consummated courtly love - say, Hasty catching Rhaella's eye when she was the beginning of her maidenhood - late in her twelfth year, say, shortly before her marriage to Aerys was announced.

[Castellan]

Admire Ser Bonifer all you want, I can't see that the characteristics you enumerate make him a likely descendent of Dunk. 

There's a better argument for Hodor and even for Small Paul. 

[The Fattest Leech]

17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Also, the Hasty coat of arms can be thought of as a simplified stylized version of one element of Dunk's shield, suggestive of the idea of a shooting star against a purple backdrop.

It may be that you are thinking of House Dayne with the star and purple (and sword) sigil.

Dunk's personal sigil is a green shooting star over an elm tree. He has a few others, but none are purple.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 hours ago, Castellan said:

Admire Ser Bonifer all you want, I can't see that the characteristics you enumerate make him a likely descendent of Dunk. 

There's a better argument for Hodor and even for Small Paul. 

Yes, I agree to both, especially Small Paul.

[Platypus Rex]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Hasty is important for the future. He is both a very pious man and a man with close ties to House Targaryen. He and his Holy Hundred hold Harrenhal right now - the High Septon has restored the Warrior's Sons and Prince Aegon has returned to Westeros.

GRRM has set up a mystery about Bonifer's past.  I asked you if you had an alternate explanation for this mystery.  Your answer seems to be "No."  You're not interested in his past, but only in his future.  Fair enough.

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What do you think they will do now? It is rather obvious, don't you think?

Obvious?  Not to me.  Are you about to make some bold prediction about Bonifer?

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And the fact that Orton Merryweather suggested that Cersei make Hasty castellan of Harrenhal also imply that he and Taena are Varys'/the Golden Company's pets (Orton met Taena during his exile and both he and his father - who is dead - may have served with the Golden Company before Robert allowed them to return home).

In all of the above, I somehow missed the bold prediction about Bonifer's future.  Did you mean to make one?  Anyhow, it seems to me like a change of subject.  So let's get back to Bonifer's past.

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No, it is said that he lost all joy in tourneys when it was announced that Princess Rhaella would marry Prince Aerys.

When I mention the Jaime clue, your answer seems to be "No, the Barristan clue".  But they don't actually contradict each other.  So why should I ignore what the author has taken the trouble to write: 

Barristan's clue:  "The queen your mother was always mindful of her duty, […]  As a girl, though … she was once smitten with a young knight from the stormlands who wore her favor at a tourney and named her queen of love and beauty.  A brief thing.  He put away his lance the day your lady mother wed your father.  Afterwards he became most pious, and was heard to say that only the Maiden could replace Queen Rhaella in his heart."

Jaime's clue:  " Ser Bonifer himself had been a promising knight in his youth, but something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, and afterward he had decided that jousting was an empty vanity and put away his lance for good and all."

"put away his lance" apparently means he stops competing in tournaments.  So unless a tournament was underway the day of the wedding, I don't think we can be too literal about when exactly he "put away his lance".  We can perhaps suggest the following chronology:

1. Bonifer wins a tournament and declares Rhaella queen of love and beauty.  Rhaella becomes smitten with Bonifer.
2. They have a "brief thing", whatever that is.  There is some implication of conduct that may have been less than proper, otherwise there would be no need to preface it with "as a girl, though …"  The implication is that she was NOT always mindful of her duty before becoming Queen.
3. Aerys weds Rhaella
4. Bonifer stops competing in tournaments (perhaps due to heartbreak?).
5. Bonifer suffers a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death (Summerhall?)
6. On Egg's death, and Rhaegar's birth, Rhaella becomes Queen, and from then on, at least, is "always mindful of her duty."
7. In no particular order, Bonifer becomes most pious, declares that jousting is an empty vanity (that is, actually swears off tournaments, as opposed to merely skipping a few tournaments due to heartbreak), and declares that only the Maiden can replace Rhaella in his heart. 

In any event, the clues complement each other.  It seems Jaime vaguely remembers some story about Bonifer, and it sure sounds like there was more to the story than simple heartbreak.

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Considering that chances are pretty high that Jaehaerys and Aegon V didn't exactly announce the wedding and then go through with it a fortnight later (one would want to have a lot of guests at a royal wedding, etc.) it seems nearly confirmed that Rhaella only get pregnant with Rhaegar after her wedding to Aerys - meaning there is no reason to believe Rhaegar's father is not Aerys.

What does the date of the wedding announcement have to do with anything?  That's the parents doing, and the parents don't necessarily control the children.  Whatever Rhaella's parents may have announced, the implication of Barristan's words is that Bonifer and Rhaella did not give up on each other prior to the day of the wedding. 

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The sidebar about the rumors that Joanna Lannister may have been one of Aerys II's mistresses. It is quite clear that the queen did not approve when her ladies became the king's sluts.

I think you're misreading this.  Aerys is a sexual predator, and Rhaella does not like him preying on her companions.  The reason she does not want him "making her ladies into his whores", is because she does not want them abused, molested or dishonored.  You think those poor abused Hollywood starlets have a hard time saying no to Harvey Weinstein?  That's nothing compared to the position these ladies are in, when the mad dragon king of Westeros decides to go after them.

When Rhaella dismisses Joanna, Joanna leaves KL the SAME DAY.  Why the rush?  It's not like Aerys wants her gone.  And then, once Joanna gets away, she never returns to KL even for a visit.  Who is she avoiding?  Rhaella?  

I don't think so.  I think Rhaella's sudden dismissal of Joanna was not punishment, but protection.  I'll bet Joanna was at least 100 miles gone from the city before Aerys even found out she had been dismissed.

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By the standards of this world, Rhaella still would be a slut if she had an affair before/outside of marriage, no?

Who cares?  I think she slept with Bonifer.  Call her all the names you want.  Call her a hypocrite too, if you think she's a prude.  It doesn't disprove my theory.

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The Targaryens married their sisters for thousands of years. Some of them had issues producing healthy offspring, but they usually got around to produce enough children to continue the bloodline.

Aegon V studied the Targ family tree and decided incest was a bad idea.  You can do the same and reach the same conclusion.

Before the Doom, there were a lot more Valyrians around.  Sibling incest may have been permissible, but it did not need to be constant in some desperate and deluded attempt to keep the bloodline pure.

If you look at the Targ family trees, you see that you can (kinda, sorta) get away with sibling incest for one generation.   But after two successive generations of full sibling incest, things really start to go south.  Fresh blood has to be brought in from outside in order to restore the Targaryen line.  

But yeah, you can (I suppose) get away with full sibling incest "for thousands of years", as long as you are not constantly doing it.  There has to be regular outbreeding to bring in genetic variety, or things go wrong pretty quick.

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And the pattern that healthy and talented and able-bodied children stand beside freakish, mad, and sickly siblings is also a well-known trend. Just think of the sons of Daeron II, for example. Two healthy and powerful warriors in Baelor and Maekar, and two mad/sickly princes in Aerys I and Rhaegel.

Daeron II's children were the products of outbreeding.  

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For your case you have to be able to make a case that (1) Hasty and Rhaella had an actual affair (which is not even implied by Selmy), and (2) that they had an affair around the time of Rhaegar's conception (which would have to be after the wedding, or else Aerys II would have had difficulties believing he was the father of Rhaegar).

I'm inclined to believe their affair was before the wedding, based on Barristan's words.  But I don't see how it continuing after the wedding can be ruled out absolutely.  It is not as though Barristan is omniscient.  But I see no logic in your assumption that it cannot have been before the wedding.  That is exactly when Barristan says they had their "brief thing", with Rhaenys being perhaps not so mindful of her duty as when she was queen.

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And he was stupid enough to not do the math? And Hasty never showed his face to be close to his son? You also do recall that Aerys II had rather severe issues with his sons shortly before the Rebellion. Branding him a bastard would have been the ideal way to get rid of him. But he apparently never did that.

I mean, if you can figure this thing out then there would be sufficient evidence for the people involved, too.

Huh?  It almost seems like you are saying my argument is so good, it's bad.  Because any argument that good ought to have convinced such an excellent thinker Sane King Aerys.  Or something.

How the hell should I know whether Bonifer ever showed his face close to his son?  Insufficient data.

Sane King Aerys obviously has his ego interfering with his thinking, to some extent, which is why he refuses to accept that the sickly deformed children are his.  If he had a modern geneticist's understanding of incest, he might realize that the problem lies not with him alone, and not with her alone, but with their doubly-inbred incestuous union.

But I don't think we can assume that Aerys did not eventually come to suspect that Rhaegar was not his own.  There were certainly rumors that Aerys planned to disinherit Rhaegar.  

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Which is basically also just nonsense.

And, no. There are not really such parallels -

Dude.  That's just plain rude.  If you want to know what parallels I'm referring to, just ask, and I'll tell you.  Here goes:

Siblings Aegon/Aerys and Naerys/Rhaella are from the incestuous union of sibling parents.   Their sibling parents want them to marry each other, but Naerys/Rhaella loves Aemon/Bonifer, a top-level tournament knight.  The children are coerced by their parents into marrying, though they do not love each other.  The first child born to the union is reasonably healthy, but then follow a string of unsuccessful pregnancies and sickly children, in which only one other child lives past infancy.  Aegon/Aerys is a philanderer.  Naerys/Rhaella is accused of adultery, but is vindicated.   Rumors suggest that Aegon/Aerys wants to disinherit his firstborn son, but he dies without ever doing anything about it. 

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And Rhaegar looks exactly like Viserys III aside from the eye color and height, right? There is nothing of Hasty in him.

Uh … where do you get this from?  We know from Dany's vision that they have the same hair, but we are not told much else.  Rhaegar has a broad face.  Does Viserys have a broad face?  I don't know, but I certainly never imagined him that way.  And any resemblance (or lack thereof) to Hasty is pure speculation.  We have no information one way or another.

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I don't think this has to go anywhere aside from showing that Selmy actually is a normal man with normal desires and dreams - and Ashara Dayne was apparently very beautiful. It is quite clear that he never made a move so his interest in her should have as much plot relevance as that of any man who is in love with somebody and keeps this completely to himself.

In Selmy's case, I would guess his (unrequired) infatuation with Ashara is merely an excuse for him to reminisce about the past and provide information about Ashara and other persons.  Selmy's relationship with Ashara isn't really the topic.

In Bonifer's case, it seems that his love for Rhaella IS the topic.   

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This is our source:  There is nothing about consummation here.

Uhh.  If you need it all spelled out in GRRM's text, then it would not be a theory.    And by any equally stringent standard, you could not prove R+L=J, or any other approved theory.

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And you have to keep in mind that Rhaella Targaryen was only born in 245/246 AC, meaning she was only 13-14 when she gave birth to Rhaegar, and possibly 11-12 when she was married (which may have been in 257-258 AC, depending when exactly Rhaella got pregnant) and even younger when she caught Hasty's eye.

Is that my problem?  GRRM, through Selmy, tells us they had the hots for each other.  Take it up with GRRM, if you don't like it.  I'm just following the evidence.  Anyhow, however old she was when she gave birth to Rhaegar, she would have gotten pregnant roughly 8-10 months before that.  No need to stretch the problem into even earlier ages.  If she was 14 when she gave birth, she was 13-14 when she got pregnant.  

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Chances are very low that a girl this young was enamored enough to want to fuck, don't you think?

Ask GRRM.  And re-read the "she wants to fuck" ending to the chapter where 13-year old Dany's marries Khal Drogo.

In F&B a 12-year old boy impregnates his older wife and proudly boasts about it.  So GRRM is even trying to be equal-opportunity about this sort of thing, though in truth, 12 year old fathers are far far more rare than 12 year old mothers.

Tyrion and Tysha were 13 and 14 respectively.

Lyanna was about 15 when she died.  But if you do the math, her "abduction" would have occurred about 20 months earlier. 

Sansa was 12 when she stared at Tyrion's erect purple cock and pondered that pity was the death of desire.  But she did not seem to think that desire was inherently impossible for her because of her age.

In Summer Island culture, young girls work as temple prostitutes or a year as soon as they flower.  That should mean at the age of 12.  The World Book has a glowing description of this enlightened(?) sex-positive culture.

This isn't my problem.  I'm just following the evidence.  And if your argument is "GRRM would never go there", then I just don't buy that argument.  He has already gone there.  Repeatedly.

[Platypus Rex]

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Dunk's personal sigil is a green shooting star over an elm tree. He has a few others, but none are purple.

Artists invariably depict the backdrop of the shooting star as purple.  Probably because this is the logical interpretation of a shooting star that is visible against the upper part of a sunset sky.  The link you provided contains such an illustration.  (And Dunk does instruct Tanselle that the field should be the "color of sunset").

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Artists invariably depict the backdrop of the shooting star as purple.  Probably because this is the logical interpretation of a shooting star that is visible against the upper part of a sunset sky.  The link you provided contains such an illustration.  (And Dunk does instruct Tanselle that the field should be the "color of sunset").

George writes the colors of sunset to be reds and pinks. He uses purples for dawn, hence the sword of the morning\Dayne sigil. 

[Platypus Rex]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George writes the colors of sunset to be reds and pinks. He uses purples for dawn, hence the sword of the morning\Dayne sigil. 

Nobody is going to depict a shooting star against a red or pink backdrop.  Any reds and pinks, if they appear at all, will be lower in the sky, where the horizon is. 

Sunrise and Sunset are the same color of course.  It's the same process in reverse, and on the other end of the sky.  Dawn and Dusk tend to be purple, because the sky above the sun will tend to be purple.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

Nobody is going to depict a shooting star against a red or pink backdrop.  Any reds and pinks, if they appear at all, will be lower in the sky, where the horizon is. 

Sunrise and Sunset are the same color of course.  It's the same process in reverse, and on the other end of the sky.

George is very clear that sunsets in his world are reds and pinks. That sunrise, dawn, are purples. This color delineation means something in the story, that is why sigils (a magical term) are symbolic. 

[Platypus Rex]

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George is very clear that sunsets in his world are reds and pinks. That sunrise, dawn, are purples. This color delineation means something in the story, that is why sigils (a magical term) are symbolic. 

Sunrises are also red, in his world.  And yes, you will readily find examples using "A Search of Ice and Fire".

I'm amazed that you think it could possibly be otherwise?  Have you never seen a sunrise or a sunset? 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sunrises are also red, in his world.  And yes, you will readily find examples using "A Search of Ice and Fire".

I'm amazed that you think it could possibly be otherwise?  Have you never seen a sunrise or a sunset? 

And what does real world have to do with this? 

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sunrises are also red, in his world.  And yes, you will readily find examples using "A Search of Ice and Fire".

I'm amazed that you think it could possibly be otherwise?  Have you never seen a sunrise or a sunset? 

I only found (sorry, I’m on phone and copy paste format is weird)...

-Jon could make out the faint red glimmer of distant fires moving through the wood. It was Mance, certain as sunrise. The Others did not light torches.

-Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered redwith every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

-And the beauty of that sunrise, he remembered that as well: stars strewn across a purple sky, the grass glittering like glass with the morning dew, red splendor in the east.

[Platypus Rex]

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I only found (sorry, I’m on phone and copy paste format is weird)...

[snip]

-And the beauty of that sunrise, he remembered that as well: stars strewn across a purple sky, the grass glittering like glass with the morning dew, red splendor in the east.

Is not the last example sufficient?

Sunrise is red.  As is sunset.  And of course it will blot out any stars, in the area of the sunrise/sunset.  Any stars that are visible, early in the sunrise or late in the sunset, will be against a purple backdrop.  By the time the sky turns blue, stars generally will not be visible at all.