Jump to content
silverwolf22

how I believe brienne being a descendant of duncan the tall came to be

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM has set up a mystery about Bonifer's past.  I asked you if you had an alternate explanation for this mystery.  Your answer seems to be "No."  You're not interested in his past, but only in his future.  Fair enough.

There is no mystery about his past. There is only Jaime the moron not knowing why Bonifer stopped riding in tourneys. He does not know that he would have liked to marry Princess Rhaella.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I think you're misreading this.  Aerys is a sexual predator, and Rhaella does not like him preying on her companions.  The reason she does not want him "making her ladies into his whores", is because she does not want them abused, molested or dishonored.  You think those poor abused Hollywood starlets have a hard time saying no to Harvey Weinstein?  That's nothing compared to the position these ladies are in, when the mad dragon king of Westeros decides to go after them.

Aerys II was the king. It was profitable for any lady of the court to have an affair with him, because that can advance the family. Just think how keen many fathers and other male relations were to put their daughters into the bed of Aegon IV (and Otto Hightower in the bed of Viserys I).

Being the mistress of a king does not dishonor a woman in the eyes of the world ... but it definitely does in the eyes of the queen, and for obvious reasons.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

When Rhaella dismisses Joanna, Joanna leaves KL the SAME DAY.  Why the rush?  It's not like Aerys wants her gone.  And then, once Joanna gets away, she never returns to KL even for a visit.  Who is she avoiding?  Rhaella?

In part, perhaps. But perhaps also Aerys II. We don't yet know.

In any case, this is irrelevant since my point was that Joanna considered the mistresses of her brother-husband whores. That means she looked down on women who had affairs.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Before the Doom, there were a lot more Valyrians around.  Sibling incest may have been permissible, but it did not need to be constant in some desperate and deluded attempt to keep the bloodline pure.

Sorry, you have no idea. Incest was a Valyrian tradition. Chances are higher that there the marriage of the Valyrians back in Valyria were exclusively incestuous or among close cousins because there were so many of them back there. They would have had less need to intermarry with complete outsiders.

Certainly, some impoverished cadet branches of the dragonlord families may have married rich foreigners and outsiders, but the main branches would have had less incentive to interbreed with such people than the Targaryens have - who actually had to deal with the marriage alliances of the feudal lords they conquered.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

If you look at the Targ family trees, you see that you can (kinda, sorta) get away with sibling incest for one generation.   But after two successive generations of full sibling incest, things really start to go south.  Fresh blood has to be brought in from outside in order to restore the Targaryen line.

That is an unprovable assertion. It is also wrong since we have, for instance, six incestuous/cousin marriages from Aegon-Rhaenys to Rhaenyra-Daemon and Aegon III and Viserys II turn out to be rather well-built and fine lads.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

But yeah, you can (I suppose) get away with full sibling incest "for thousands of years", as long as you are not constantly doing it.  There has to be regular outbreeding to bring in genetic variety, or things go wrong pretty quick.

Actually, no. The way you get rid of the bad blood in an incestuous setting is to only allow those people to continue to breed who have the traits you want. That's how people breed new races of dogs. Massive inbreeding among the healthy offspring with the desired traits.

The really bad Targaryens - the crippled freaks, etc. - die in the womb or the cradle. They don't get rid of all the bad blood this way, of course, but there is a reason why the Targaryens are as physically powerful and beautiful. They really bred themselves to be this way with their constant sibling marriages.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Daeron II's children were the products of outbreeding.  

And there were still two freaks among them. 

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm inclined to believe their affair was before the wedding, based on Barristan's words.  But I don't see how it continuing after the wedding can be ruled out absolutely.  It is not as though Barristan is omniscient.  But I see no logic in your assumption that it cannot have been before the wedding.  That is exactly when Barristan says they had their "brief thing", with Rhaenys being perhaps not so mindful of her duty as when she was queen.

Nobody rules out anything absolutely. I just say there is no reason to buy that theory, no evidence to support it, no reason to believe or argue for it.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Huh?  It almost seems like you are saying my argument is so good, it's bad.  Because any argument that good ought to have convinced such an excellent thinker Sane King Aerys.  Or something.

How the hell should I know whether Bonifer ever showed his face close to his son?  Insufficient data.

Because even Jaime didn't know who the guy was? If he had been at court during Rhaegar's last days he would have known. He would have also heard of him had he been there in his youth (via Tywin).

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Siblings Aegon/Aerys and Naerys/Rhaella are from the incestuous union of sibling parents.   Their sibling parents want them to marry each other, but Naerys/Rhaella loves Aemon/Bonifer, a top-level tournament knight.  The children are coerced by their parents into marrying, though they do not love each other.  The first child born to the union is reasonably healthy, but then follow a string of unsuccessful pregnancies and sickly children, in which only one other child lives past infancy.  Aegon/Aerys is a philanderer.  Naerys/Rhaella is accused of adultery, but is vindicated.   Rumors suggest that Aegon/Aerys wants to disinherit his firstborn son, but he dies without ever doing anything about it. 

And what proves that besides the fact that Aerys-Rhaella had luck one time, and bad luck the later times they tried?

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Uh … where do you get this from?  We know from Dany's vision that they have the same hair, but we are not told much else.  Rhaegar has a broad face.  Does Viserys have a broad face?  I don't know, but I certainly never imagined him that way.  And any resemblance (or lack thereof) to Hasty is pure speculation.  We have no information one way or another.

Dany first thought Rhaegar was Viserys III. She confused them and only realized a couple of seconds later that the man wasn't the brother she knew. They look that much alike.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

In Selmy's case, I would guess his (unrequired) infatuation with Ashara is merely an excuse for him to reminisce about the past and provide information about Ashara and other persons.  Selmy's relationship with Ashara isn't really the topic.

Neither is this Bonifer nonsense. This thread is supposed to be about Ser Duncan the Tall.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

In Bonifer's case, it seems that his love for Rhaella IS the topic.   

Uhh.  If you need it all spelled out in GRRM's text, then it would not be a theory.    And by any equally stringent standard, you could not prove R+L=J, or any other approved theory.

Well, apples and oranges. There are many more hints for that than this Rhaella-Bonifer idea.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Is that my problem?  GRRM, through Selmy, tells us they had the hots for each other.  Take it up with GRRM, if you don't like it.  I'm just following the evidence.  Anyhow, however old she was when she gave birth to Rhaegar, she would have gotten pregnant roughly 8-10 months before that.  No need to stretch the problem into even earlier ages.  If she was 14 when she gave birth, she was 13-14 when she got pregnant.

Not necessarily since we don't know when they married. Nor when Rhaella got pregnant. Immediately after her marriage or had she and Aerys to try to conceive a child a couple of months? We don't know, so don't pretend that you do.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

This isn't my problem.  I'm just following the evidence.  And if your argument is "GRRM would never go there", then I just don't buy that argument.  He has already gone there.  Repeatedly.

It is one thing to paint an old man and a child having some sort of infatuation/romance, and another to have them have sex. Hasty must have been around twenty, perhaps older.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/3/2019 at 7:52 AM, Platypus Rex said:

Is not the last example sufficient?

Not really because it is what that one particular sky represents to Tyrion after a battle. It is how Tyrion is remembering the world at that moment in his time. It is actually a bitter memory.

Do you have any other examples where a morning is red and not associated with fire/blood/war/etc? I simply cannot find any.

Spoiler

The Winds of Winter - Tyrion I

Tyrion found himself thinking back on his first battle. Shae had been the first to stir, woken by his father's trumpets. The sweet strumpet who'd pleasured him for half the night had trembled naked in his arms, a frightened child. <i>Or was all that a lie as well, a ploy she used to make me feel brave and brilliant? What a mummer she might have been.</i> When Tyrion had shouted out for Podrick Payne to help him with his armor, he'd found the boy asleep and snoring. <i>Not the quickest lad I've ever known, but a decent squire in the end. I hope he found a better man to serve</i>.

It was queer, but Tyrion remembered the Green Fork much better than the Blackwater. <i>It was my first. You never forget your first.</i> He remembered the fog drifting off the river, wending through the reeds like pale white fingers. And the beauty of that sunrise, he remembered that as well: stars strewn across a purple sky, the grass glittering like glass with the morning dew, red splendor in the east. He remembered the touch of Shae's fingers as she helped Pod with Tyrion's mismatched armor. <i>That bloody helm. Like a bucket with a spike.</i> That spike had saved him, though, had won him his first victory, but Groat and Penny had never looked half as silly as he must have looked that day. Shae had called him "fearsome" when she saw him in his steel, mind you. <i>How could I have been so blind, so deaf, so stupid? I should have known better than to do my thinking with my cock.</i>

 

Quote

Sunrise is red.  As is sunset.  And of course it will blot out any stars, in the area of the sunrise/sunset.  Any stars that are visible, early in the sunrise or late in the sunset, will be against a purple backdrop.  By the time the sky turns blue, stars generally will not be visible at all.

You should probably reread how GRRM specifically uses these colors and when and why. Yes, technically at some point in time, usually about every 24 hours, the sky changes from purple to red/pink. But what does this have to do with real life? The important part is how active these details are within the story and why.

That Tyrion quote from above is about the only one I can find with red at dawn, and it is related to blood and fire and war. Even the red priests that always light fires at sunset. Unlike the Dayne sigil, which is the shooting star (sword) on the purple background that I originally asked if you were thinking of instead. You originally made a statement that the Hasty coat of arms, a white bend cotised on a purple field, is somehow based one of Dunk's personal sigil's and therefore this adds to your proof/evidence/clues that Brienne is not from Dunk, but Hasty is, which is somehow more interesting? I think you are having a hard time in this thread getting anyone to agree to your theory, and that seems to be (to a large degree) that you are ignoring the set up (thinking something else is more interesting) and dismissing GRRM's words on the matter.

Maybe instead of typing out your theory in a thread that wants to discuss how Brienne is a descendant of Dunk, you start a new thread (poll?) that details your theory properly (not broken up between various responses to other posters)?

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is one thing to paint an old man and a child having some sort of infatuation/romance, and another to have them have sex. Hasty must have been around twenty, perhaps older.

I'm getting a bit bored of your nonsense, so for the time being I'm going to ask you one question.

What is your source for your repeated claim that Bonifer was 20 or older?

Why not 19 or younger?  Why not 16?  Why not 15?  We have many examples of persons being knighted at 15.  Jaime, at 15, was the youngest ever Kingsguard member, but we have no idea who was the youngest ever knight.

It seems that 16 is a more-normal age to get knighted, but there have been numerous exceptions for knights of exceptional skill.  Bonifer was certainly a knight of exceptional skill.

Edited by Platypus Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm getting a bit bored of your nonsense, so for the time being I'm going to ask you one question.

:rolleyes:

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

What is your source for your repeated claim that Bonifer was 20 or older.

Why not 19 or younger?  Why not 16?  Why not 15?  We have many examples of persons being knighted at 15. 

Many? We have Jaime, Loras, and Daeron Targaryen being knighted at 15, and Daemon Blackfyre at 12 which is considered very young indeed. These are the only ones I can think of that were knighted that yoyng. They stand out because they were younger than the vast majority. 

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Jaime, at 15, was the youngest ever Kingsguard member, but we have no idea who was the youngest ever knight.

Very likely it was Daemon Blackfyre. 

3 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

It seems that 16 is a more-normal age to get knighted, but there have been numerous exceptions for knights of exceptional skill.  Bonifer was certainly a knight of exceptional skill.

Again, 4 is not "numerous exceptions. Is that even a thing? I mean, if there are numerous, how can they be exceptions?

And there's nothing in the text suggesting Hasty was a knight of exceptional skill. The text only says he was a "promising tourney knight" (or something along those lines), not a knight of exceptional skill; those are two very different things. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Many? We have Jaime, Loras, and Daeron Targaryen being knighted at 15, and Daemon Blackfyre at 12 which is considered very young indeed. These are the only ones I can think of that were knighted that yoyng.

Interesting tactics.  I ask for proof for the claim that Bonifer (the "young knight") was 20 or older, and instead I get stupid semantic quibbles about the meaning of the word "many".   And I suppose, instead of backing up the assumption I was challenging, you are going to shift the burden to me to prove that Bonifer was 15, which I never took a position on

How many named examples of under 16 knights need be provided before you become convinced that this is indeed possible?    It's a series of novels.  It not a statistical study of 100,000 knights, only 4 of whom were under 16.

How many named examples do we have of knights whose age when knighted is known?  Is it more than 20?  Less than 20?  I don't know, but the answer is obviously not going to be astronomical.  Even if we only know of 4, that is going to be a significant minority of the available data set.

Quote

They stand out because they were younger than the vast majority. 

Yeah.  Well I already said that the majority were knighted at 16 or older.  Thanks for agreeing with me.

Quote

Again, 4 is not "numerous exceptions. Is that even a thing? I mean, if there are numerous, how can they be exceptions?

Bizarre semantic quibbles. 

Quote

And there's nothing in the text suggesting Hasty was a knight of exceptional skill.

Does winning a major tournament (attended by the Royal Family) not count?

Bonifer named Rhaella the queen of love and beauty.  Only the winner of a tournament gets to name the queen of love and beauty, by selecting one of the women present.

Edited by Platypus Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We have Jaime, Loras, and Daeron Targaryen being knighted at 15, and Daemon Blackfyre at 12 which is considered very young indeed. These are the only ones I can think of that were knighted that yoyng. 

It is possible Gregor also belongs on the list.  He was 17 at the time of the Sack of KL, in 283, but was evidently knighted by Rhaegar at some point prior to the Harrenhall Tournament, which was in 281.

Sandor was "6, maybe 7" when Gregor injured him.  Gregor is 5 years older than Sandor, and was knighted 4 years after that; which apparently would make him "15, maybe 16" at the time he was knighted by Rhaegar.

And how old was the "young knight", Ser Hugh of the Vale?  We are never told.  But he had only been a squire for four years, when knighted, and was arguably not quite ready for knighthood.

Edited by Platypus Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/30/2019 at 7:37 PM, Platypus Rex said:

A better theory, IMHO, is that Bonifer Hasty, the very-tall, very honorable, ex-tournament knight, who is mysteriously effected by some tragedy dating back to around the time of Summerhall, is Dunk's descendant. 

 

On 7/1/2019 at 1:36 AM, Platypus Rex said:

He's tall.  He's a tournament knight like his father/grandfather.  He's a landed knight, which is pretty much the highest rank that Dunk and Egg could reasonably bestow on a man of humble birth.  He is honorable, like his father/grandfather.  He has some connection with the court of Egg, at the time Dunk was Lord Commander.  There is some mystery around him.  And he is old enough that we can construct a theory tracing trace the descendants of Duncan the Tall without too many gaps and speculations.  He is old enough to have actually known Duncan the tall and perhaps learned the skills and ideals of knighthood from him (magical thinking not required).

 

On 7/1/2019 at 1:36 AM, Platypus Rex said:

As for being the embodiment of true chivalry, Ser Bonfer seems to have a pretty good record as well.  He is evidently the leader of the only military force in Westeros that does not rape.  And he is old enough to have actually known Duncan the Tall, and been trained with Duncan's ideals.  So in his case, this connection is not necessarily "magical".

Is this essentially the Bonifer-is-a-descendant-of-Dunk theory?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Is this essentially the Bonifer-is-a-descendant-of-Dunk theory?

Well, it is certainly A Bonifer-is-a-descendant-of-Dunk theory.

I also think the Elder Brother can be counted as a candidate for a descendant of Dunk.  He is from a family of knights, and, while fighting for the Targs in Robert's Rebellion, he was stripped of his shield (and other equipment).  Tarth is with the Stormlands, and would plausibly be fighting for the other side.  That might be how Dunk's shield ended up in a Tarth armory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, it is certainly A Bonifer-is-a-descendant-of-Dunk theory.

I also think the Elder Brother can be counted as a candidate for a descendant of Dunk.  He is from a family of knights, and, while fighting for the Targs in Robert's Rebellion, he was stripped of his shield (and other equipment).  Tarth is with the Stormlands, and would plausibly be fighting for the other side.  That might be how Dunk's shield ended up in a Tarth armory.

Would Bonifer not be proud to be Dunk's son/grandson, assuming his 'descent' pre-dates Dunk being named KG? Yes, Dunk's origins might be humble, but he rose to a position of very high honour and was very close to Aegon V. Being only a landed Knight, Bonifer wouldn't have a need to deny/hide this ancestry. So if Bonifer's parentage had indeed to be hidden, that most likely means Dunk broke his KG vows with a random woman. Idk, seems a bit of a let down to Dunk's story arc :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

Would Bonifer not be proud to be Dunk's son/grandson, assuming his 'descent' pre-dates Dunk being named KG? Yes, Dunk's origins might be humble, but he rose to a position of very high honour and was very close to Aegon V. Being only a landed Knight, Bonifer wouldn't have a need to deny/hide this ancestry. So if Bonifer's parentage had indeed to be hidden, that most likely means Dunk broke his KG vows with a random woman. Idk, seems a bit of a let down to Dunk's story arc :dunno:

Ser Bonifer never discusses his ancestry with Jaime.   This isn't because he is hiding anything.  It is just that the topic never comes up.   And we certainly have not spend a huge amount of time with Ser Bonifer.

GRRM can easily hide Bonifer's ancestry merely by never going out of his way to mention it.  It does not mean that Bonifer is hiding anything.

Brienne never mentions that she is a descendant of Dunk either.  And if she does not know, that only begs the question of how we are ever going to find out.

Edited by Platypus Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Ser Bonifer never discusses his ancestry with Jaime.   This isn't because he is hiding anything.  It is just that the topic never comes up.   And we certainly have not spend a huge amount of time with Ser Bonifer.

GRRM can easily hide Bonifer's ancestry merely by never going out of his way to mention it.  It does not mean that Bonifer is hiding anything.

Brienne never mentions that she is a descendant of Dunk either.  And if she does not know, that only begs the question of how we are ever going to find out.

If it's not hidden/known, then we can pretty much rule out him being a son of Dunk. It's hard to see that not being brought up when he is being discussed. It would be a fairly big deal if you were the son of a legendary LC of the KG, a knight Aegon V squired for many years. Obviously, not impossible, but when eventually revealed, many readers are likely to go, "Huh? And with all the previous references to Bonifer, not once did it come up he was Duncan the Tall's son?"

I guess he could be a grandson, but idk not sure it makes for interesting easter eggs to be planted in future D&E stories. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

If it's not hidden/known, then we can pretty much rule out him being a son of Dunk. It's hard to see that not being brought up when he is being discussed. It would be a fairly big deal if you were the son of a legendary LC of the KG, a knight Aegon V squired for many years. Obviously, not impossible, but when eventually revealed, many readers are likely to go, "Huh? And with all the previous references to Bonifer, not once did it come up he was Duncan the Tall's son?"

I guess he could be a grandson, but idk not sure it makes for interesting easter eggs to be planted in future D&E stories. 

That's fan talk.  Duncan the Tall is mentioned only twice in the main series.  Once he is mentioned by Jaime, in connection with Jaime's interest in the history of the kingsguard, and mainly in the context of being defeated by another knight.  Another time he is mentioned, by 100-year old Aemon, to Daeron:  reminiscing about "Egg" and "his friend Ser Duncan" and "Brynden Rivers".  Daeron recognizes the name of Brynden Rivers, because he heard a song about him, but evidently has no idea who "Egg" and "Ser Duncan" are.  Duncan is never referred to as "legendary".

Edited by Platypus Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a list why this Bonifer-Rhaella-Rhaegar stuff is nonsense:

It would mean the prophecy stuff is utter nonsense: 

1. Rhaegar is thought to be the promised prince because he is the son of Aerys II and Rhaella. If he wasn't Aerys' son, Rhaella would know. Meaning that it makes no sense she would help instill that belief in him.

2. It would essentially confirm Dany was the only possible candidate for the promised prince. But that's not what the text wants to do.

8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

What is your source for your repeated claim that Bonifer was 20 or older?

Why not 19 or younger?  Why not 16?  Why not 15?  We have many examples of persons being knighted at 15.  Jaime, at 15, was the youngest ever Kingsguard member, but we have no idea who was the youngest ever knight.

It seems that 16 is a more-normal age to get knighted, but there have been numerous exceptions for knights of exceptional skill.  Bonifer was certainly a knight of exceptional skill.

We know Bonifer was already a tourney knight of some renown when he caught Rhaella's eye. He was not some green boy who had just received his knighthood. In combination with the fact that not every knight - especially not some guy from a minor noble family - gets knighted around sixteen (and only very exceptional people get their knighthood before they are adults) this seems a very good guess. I did not claim Bonifer was 20, I said I think he may have been around that age. That is a difference.

You can compare Rhaella-Bonifer to Rhaegar-Lyanna. Lya was about the same age as Rhaella - or slightly older, even - at Harrenhal. They could have an actual sexual affair there - but they could just as well have only talked or exchanged kisses. We don't know.

The idea that a 12-13-year-old girl who was as dutiful as Rhaella would actually lose her maidenhead to a man as lowborn as Bonifer Hasty is not very likely. For one, Hasty wasn't a member of the court as far as know. He didn't have the time to seduce Rhaella - unlike, say, Saera's male companions in FaB. One can imagine that Bonifer and Rhaella may have tried sex had it been clear that they would marry in the future. But this was out of the question. Also, Rhaella clearly was not like her namesake Rhaella, the daughter of Aegon the Uncrowned (or Aerea in her later life) or Baela or Daena or Lyanna. She was not adventurous - and even those girls did not sleep around at the age of 12-13. We are talking about a girl who not have had her first moon blood yet.

Rhaella's love for Bonifer is the same kind of thing Sansa first felt for Joffrey and then for Loras - or what Cersei felt for Rhaegar or Jeyne Poole for Beric Dondarrion. A prepubescent infatuation. Nothing we can expand to an actual sexual affair. Because, you know, the women in this world actually do know what it means to sleep around. They know that being soiled reduces their chances of making a good marriage and they know that giving birth to a bastard is a disgrace. Some of them still do it, but for that to happen there has to be a proper setting. It needs both opportunity and the environment to do it. Rhaella was a royal princess, she would not have the opportunity to hang out with a minor tourney who had already publicly shown he may have a thing for her - by naming her queen of love and beauty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

How many named examples do we have of knights whose age when knighted is known? 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight#Age_at_knighthood

Maegor Targaryen was knighted, when he was 16 years old. At that time (in 28 AC) he was the youngest knight in 7K. Though knighthood existed in Westeros, even before this continent was conquered by Targaryens, because it was brought there by Andals, thousands years ago. And amongst people of pre and after-Conquest era, Maegor, aged 16, was the youngest knight ever.

Read further in that link - Jaime, Loras, and Daeron (son of Alicent Hightower), that were knighted at 15, were considered to be young for knights. Barristan Selmy, who was an exceptional fighter, was knighted at 16. Daemon (Rhaenyra's husband) was knighted at 16. Raymun Fossoway, from The Hedge Knight novel, was approximately Dunk's age (Dunk at that time was 16-18), if not older, and he still was not knighted. Glendon Ball, who was born either in the very late 196, or in 197, was knighted nearly 6 months prior he met Dunk and Egg in The Mystery Knight in 212 AC. So, he became a knight, when he was 15+months. Rhaegar, who defeated both, Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, was knighted at 17.

Thus, more usual age for being knighted is 16+.

For Bonifer Hasty to gain a reputation of a promising tourney knight, to be viewed by people as such, he was supposed to participate and win (or close to winning) in 3-5+ tournaments (to show, that his prowess is not a fluke). And tournaments are not the kind of event, that is held every day, at every corner. Thus, it's highly likely, that at the time of announcement about Rhaella's wedding with Aerys, Bonifer was aged 20+. Rhaella married in 259, or earlier. That was 41 year ago. So, by now Bonifer should be in his 60s. Duncan the Tall was born in 191-193. At the time of his death, in 259, he was 66-68 years old. First time he was mentioned to be a Kingsguard in 236 (when he was 43-45). It's obvious, that all of Duncan's children were born prior he became a KG (because he's not the kind of guy to give an oath and then break it). 

Thus, either Bonifer was born prior 236, and thus, he was at least 10-11 years older than Rhaella, that was born in 245-246, or Bonifer is not Duncan's son (because for Bonifer to be closer to Rhaella's age, he is supposed to be born already after Duncan has joined KG, and this possibility is HIGHLY unlikely. Have you read Dunk&Egg novels? He blushed, when he had to lie, that he's a knight. Thus, it's unlikely, that someone like him, would have broken a celibacy rule of KG. Especially considering that at that time, he was already in his 40s). 

I think, that we can cross out the possibility of Bonifer being Duncan's son. Based on Dunk's age, we can figure out, whether an option such as grandson or great-grandson could be more likely. Rhaella was Egg's granddaughter, and Egg was 7-9 years younger than Dunk. Thus, Dunk's children should be also about 7-9 years older than Egg's children, and same with grandchildren. Egg's first child, Duncan, was born in 220. It's likely, that by that time Dunk already had his own children, that were born about a decade earlier. For example, if his children were born in 210s, and became parents, when they themselves were in their 20s, then Dunk's grandchildren were supposed to be born in 230s. So, they were a decade or so older than Egg's grandchildren (Aerys and Rhaella).

Thus, no matter from which angle should we look at this - if Bonifer is Dunk's descendant, son or grandson, then he was in his 20s, when Rhaella got married, and she at that time was no older than 14-15. Thus, anything more between them, than platonic infatuation, is highly unlikely. So, even if Bonifer is bloodrelated to Duncan the Tall, it's irrelevant, because it crosses out the possibility of him being Rhaegar's father. And GRRM said, that Dunk's descendant will be someone important, or something like that. And I don't see any significant importance in a guy, who used to be an ex-crush of deceased Queen Rhaella. What does it add into the plot? -> Nothing! And thus, it's meaningless. And GRRM doesn't write meaningless things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Brienne never mentions that she is a descendant of Dunk either.

Probably, because she doesn't know it. And there's no reason for her father to keep it a secret from her. Thus, it seems, that he also doesn't know. And that's a likely possibility, in case if Dunk's descendant is Brienne's mother, and not her father.

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

And if she does not know, that only begs the question of how we are ever going to find out.

From her mother, that does know, that she is a descendant of Duncan the Tall. Pretty Meris could be Brienne's mother. Now she's with Dany. Dany's father was killed by Jaime. And Brienne is now with Jaime, and she cares about him. So, when those two (Dany and Jaime) will meet, and she will want to get his head off, he will be protected by Brienne, who will, probably, ask from Dany permission to fight for Jaime, in a trial by combat. And because Brienne is a female, Dany will match her own female-warrior against Brienne. And that's Meris. Brienne could say then, that she's a knight, and Meris will say that her grandfather was also a knight of 7K, Duncan the Tall, and what his sigil was. That's how Brienne will realise, that this woman is her mother, and that she herself is also Dunk's descendant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

That's fan talk.  Duncan the Tall is mentioned only twice in the main series.  Once he is mentioned by Jaime, in connection with Jaime's interest in the history of the kingsguard, and mainly in the context of being defeated by another knight.  Another time he is mentioned, by 100-year old Aemon, to Daeron:  reminiscing about "Egg" and "his friend Ser Duncan" and "Brynden Rivers".  Daeron recognizes the name of Brynden Rivers, because he heard a song about him, but evidently has no idea who "Egg" and "Ser Duncan" are.  Duncan is never referred to as "legendary".

To Jamie, Dunk is interesting and very relevant. He's read about him as one of his predecessors as LC. And when he's thinking about Bonifer on another occasion, Jamie refers to him as 'Baelor Butthole'. Many would think Jamie would contemplate the fact Bonifer is the son of an LC here, Jamie being an LC himself.

Should a 'Bonifer is the son of Dunk' reveal come later, the whole interaction between Jamie and Bonifer - and Jamie's associated thoughts on the matter seem out of place. It makes the whole thing "meh" - Bonnifer turns out to be Dunk's son, the guy the more aware 'reformed' Jamie, who treats Pia humanely, could only think of describing as a 'Butthole'. errr, ok. Great reveal!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Brienne never mentions that she is a descendant of Dunk either.  And if she does not know, that only begs the question of how we are ever going to find out.

We would find out if, say, Dunk is linked with a love interest in the Tarth ruling family, or his love interest is shipped off there as was described in the first few posts on the thread.  It's not like we are going to say a Maester's birth certificate :lmao:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It would mean the prophecy stuff is utter nonsense: 

1. Rhaegar is thought to be the promised prince because he is the son of Aerys II and Rhaella. If he wasn't Aerys' son, Rhaella would know. Meaning that it makes no sense she would help instill that belief in him.

2. It would essentially confirm Dany was the only possible candidate for the promised prince. But that's not what the text wants to do.

Rhaegar initially thought that HE was TPTWP.  Then he changed his mind.  He realized, perhaps, that he was not of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.  To unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, he would have to unite with a child of Aerys.  So he seeks out and marries Elia Martell, whose mother had been a court lady in KL roughly 9 months before Elia's birth.

Prophesies never mean what you think.  The fact that Jahaerys forced a marriage on Aerys and Rhaella, in order to fulfill the prophesy, virtually guarantees that he was doing it wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

We would find out if, say, Dunk is linked with a love interest in the Tarth ruling family, or his love interest is shipped off there as was described in the first few posts on the thread.  It's not like we are going to say a Maester's birth certificate :lmao:

We are not going to have everything spelled out for us anyway, I hope. Some things will remain as they are, largely brushed in, but not covered with enough footnotes to convince the unconvincable.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maegor Targaryen was knighted, when he was 16 years old. At that time (in 28 AC) he was the youngest knight in 7K.

Things have changed since then, evidently.  The dragon kings set a precedent.

Quote

Read further in that link - Jaime, Loras, and Daeron (son of Alicent Hightower), that were knighted at 15, were considered to be young for knights. Barristan Selmy, who was an exceptional fighter, was knighted at 16. Daemon (Rhaenyra's husband) was knighted at 16. Raymun Fossoway, from The Hedge Knight novel, was approximately Dunk's age (Dunk at that time was 16-18), if not older, and he still was not knighted. Glendon Ball, who was born either in the very late 196, or in 197, was knighted nearly 6 months prior he met Dunk and Egg in The Mystery Knight in 212 AC. So, he became a knight, when he was 15+months. Rhaegar, who defeated both, Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, was knighted at 17.

Raymun Fossoway is described (from Dunk's POV) as a "youth", at the time he is knighted.  I'm not sure how you concluded he was older than Dunk or even the same age.  But, for the sake of argument, let's assume he is 16+.  I think we can also fairly guess that Ser Hugh of the Vale was about 16 (give or take), since he had served only 4 years as a squire and was arguably not ripe. So we have:

  1. Jaime (15)
  2. Gregor Clegane (15 or 16, more likely 15)
  3. Loras (15)
  4. Daeron (15)
  5. Rhaegar (17)
  6. Barristan (16)
  7. Daemon (12)
  8. Glendon Ball (15)
  9. Waymar Royce (18 or under)
  10. Raymun Fossoway (a "youth")
  11. Ser Hugh ("young", not ready, 4-years a squire).

So, if we ignore the last 3 on the grounds that we really don't know their ages when knighted, we have 8 examples, 5 or 6 of which were 15 (or under) when knighted, 7 of which were16 or under, and all 8 of which were 17 or under.  Of the 11 examples, it seems unlikely that even one of them was 20+ when knighted.

Yeah, I'm just not seeing the compelling evidence that Bonifer the "young knight" must have been 20+.

Quote

For Bonifer Hasty to gain a reputation of a promising tourney knight, to be viewed by people as such, he was supposed to participate and win (or close to winning) in 3-5+ tournaments,

You've gone off the deep end.  We know of only one tournament where he was the victor and named Rhaella his queen of love and beauty.  There's no need whatsoever to speculate as to others where he was already knight when he entered them.  Nor do I see the need to ponder other imponderables, like how many major and minor tournaments a dedicated sportsman can participate the course of 6 months.  You don't necessarily have to be a knight to compete in a tourney; and making stuff up is not evidence.

In our world, any young player who won a chess tournament in which Magnus Carlsen and/or other top players also participated would certainly be considered "promising".  

Quote

 Thus, it's highly likely, that at the time of announcement about Rhaella's wedding with Aerys, Bonifer was aged 20+.

Complete non-sequitur.

I get it both ways from you jokers.  I've got Lord Varys insisting that "promising young knight" means something significantly less than "exceptional skill", so Bonifer can't have sufficient "exceptional skill" to be knighted at 15.   And I've got you insisting that you can't be a "promising young knight" until you are at least 20, so that "promising young knight" signifies something significantly greater than merely being a knight of "exceptional skill" eligible for early knighthood.  I think you are both grasping at straws, and stretching GRRM's words far beyond anything the evidence supports.

Quote

It's obvious, that all of Duncan's children were born prior he became a KG (because he's not the kind of guy to give an oath and then break it). 

The theory holds that Bonifer is a descendant of Dunk, either a son or a grandson.  I don't see the need to get into when exactly he was sired, or whether Dunk broke his oath or why, or whether someone like GRRM, who gave us Rhaegar & Lyanna, would think he was too old for Rhaella.  To many unanswerable questions.  Nor do I want to debate whether Bonifer was a bad sinner for sleeping with Rhaella.  That's not a relevant objection, pertaining to a man who apparently has spend the last 40 years of his life in a kind of repentance.

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×