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how I believe brienne being a descendant of duncan the tall came to be

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2 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

To Jamie, Dunk is interesting and very relevant. He's read about him as one of his predecessors as LC. 

Jaime has actually heard of Ser Duncan, and knows a little about him.  That's what we know.  Anything beyond that is speculation.

Which suggests only that if Ser Bonifer were to say to Jaime, "Hey Jaime, did you know my grandpa was Ser Duncan the Tall?", Jaime might actually respond with "Gee, I never knew that.  How did that work out with his kingsguard vows?" instead of "Ser who?", which is what most people would say.

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 8:04 AM, Lord Varys said:

Dany first thought Rhaegar was Viserys III. She confused them and only realized a couple of seconds later that the man wasn't the brother she knew. They look that much alike.

Dany thought, for an instant, that it was Viserys, on the basis of the hair.  She realized she was wrong on the basis of the height.  That's what we are told, and that is all we know.  You are assuming she can see his features perfectly, in the instant before she realizes her mistake, and in the course of a mystical dream-vision.  That's assuming quite a bit.

But we are getting a bit off base here.  Obviously they are not identical twins, and obviously it is possible for half-brothers (as well as full brothers) to resemble each other to some extent.  We have reached levels of quibbling that surpass any potential relevance, which is somehow where conversations with you always seem to go.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Rhaegar initially thought that HE was TPTWP.  Then he changed his mind.  He realized, perhaps, that he was not of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Or he changed his mind, because he realised, that there are three future saviours, three heads of the dragon, and that those three are not him and not Viserys or Aerys or Rhaella, but some other unborn yet Targaryens. And, because for a long time after Rhaegar and Viserys their parents had no other children, he thought, that all three heads of the dragon are going to be his own children. Though later it turned out, that only one of his children, is one of those three - Jon, and the other two are his sister (Dany), and her son (Rhaego).

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Yeah, I'm just not seeing the compelling evidence that Bonifer the "young knight" must have been 20+.

Those 11 in the list are exceptions. Majority become knights significantly later. And it was mentioned at what age exactly were knighted those 11, and a few more amongst ASOIAF's characters, because it's unusual to be knighted so young.

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

You don't necessarily have to be a knight to compete in a tourney

Yes, you do. That's why it was such a big problem for Dunk in The Hedge Knight. Though, there are some tournaments, that are held specifically for squires, but they are less frequent than average tournaments, because who would be interested to watch some unknown squires competing? -> not a lot of people. Majority of tournaments are made for knights, and for the audience to watch knights competing.

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The theory holds that Bonifer is a descendant of Dunk, either a son or a grandson.  I don't see the need to get into when exactly he was sired

But his age/when he was sired, IS relevant, because, based on this information, we can either cross him out as Dunk's son or grandson, or to calculate, that it's likely, that he is Dunk's descendant.

First mentioning of Dunk as a member of KG is 236, and at that time he was 43-45. It's very unlikely, that he sired a child at that age. Because, why would he wait with having children, until he had reached his 40s, and furthermore, became a member of KG? The possibility, that he sired a child in 236 or later, is so unlikely, that it's not even a possibility. Why a person, that has already by this point of time dedicated 27 years of his life to Targaryens, would have broken his oath, given to Targaryen King?  Especially someone like Duncan. Thus, if Duncan had children (and he did), then they all were born prior 236, and thus, they were 10+ years older than Rhaella. 

Also, can you imagine Dunk leaving his adolescent children to join KG? I can't. If Dunk at some point in time had a family, then, most likely, he joined KG only after his children became adults, were 16, or older, and thus were born not later than in 220. That's an interesting date, because this is also the year, when Egg had married with Betha Blackwood. Could be that Dunk's child/children were born, and after that Egg also decided that he wants to have a family, and got married. So, in 236 Dunk's children. most likely, were 16+ years old, and they could have had their own children, starting from 236 and later. So, the possibility that Bonifer is Dunk's son, is close to zero. Especially because no one ever mentions Bonifer in relation to Summerhall's burning. If he was Duncan's son or grandson, then it's really weird, that it wasn't mentioned by anyone, that Bonifer's father/grandfather died at Summerhall.

I see that you like this theory of yours, that Bonifer is Dunk's descendant, and you don't care much, that other posters don't agree with you. I also have several very questionable theories :rolleyes:

(such as - Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and the Three-Eyed Crow; Rhaego is alive; Three heads of the dragon are Dany/Drogon's rider, Rhaego/Rhaegal's rider, and Jon/Viserion's rider; fAegon is son of Barristan Selmy and septa Lemore (Lady Jeyne Swann, the Perfumed Seneschal); Varys is grandson of Rohanne Webber-Lannister/the Ghost of High Heart; Serenei of Lys is Larra Rogare; Littlefinger is a descendant of Aegon IV; Dunk's significant other is Old Nan; Hodor/Walder is Dunk's great-grandson; etc.),

but all of those theories have at least some basis in the text of ASOIAF or additional books (The World book, and Dunk&Egg series).

On what is based your theory? Is there actually any clues about that (Bonifer is Dunk's descendant) in the books?

It makes sense for Brienne to be Dunk's descendant, because in the books there were multiple clues, that are pointing to this possibility. But there's none for "Dunk is Bonifer's ancestor" theory. Or is there? :huh: Because, if there's really none, than the possibility of your theory, being correct, is nonexistent. :closedeyes:

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16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Interesting tactics.  I ask for proof for the claim that Bonifer (the "young knight") was 20 or older, and instead I get stupid semantic quibbles about the meaning of the word "many".  

Tactics? What are you on about even? Have you asked me for proof of Hasty’s age? Have I claimed Hasty was any specific age at all? 

Stupid semantic quibbles? :lol:

Your “arguments” crack me up. And for that I do thank you. It’s been a tough week. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

And I suppose, instead of backing up the assumption I was challenging, you are going to shift the burden to me to prove that Bonifer was 15, which I never took a position on

Was the assumption you were challenging made by me? I’m not shifting anything, and I am most definitely not trying to stretch this exchange with you any further. So, no, there’s no burden of proof on you. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

How many named examples of under 16 knights need be provided before you become convinced that this is indeed possible?   

:lol:

Again, cracking me up here. 

I actually named the 4 we know of that we’re knighted before 16. So, clearly and obviously I don’t need to be convinced it is possible. Sorry if that’s just another stupid semantic quibble. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

It's a series of novels.  It not a statistical study of 100,000 knights, only 4 of whom were under 16.

And yet you were banging on and on about how sunset and sunrise and pink and red and purple yadda yadda yadda not that long ago. :dunno:

So, when it is pointed out to you, with text support and all, that Martin uses the colour of sunset and sunrise differently for specific reasons, you dismiss it offhand. You brought up that in the real world sunset and sunrise blah blah blah And completely ignored the fact that this is a series of novels whose author is using different things like themes and symbolism to make certain points and give certain hints. But now you’re saying that this is a story and not an actual study on knighthood or whatever it is you’re trying to say. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

How many named examples do we have of knights whose age when knighted is known?  Is it more than 20?  Less than 20?  I don't know, but the answer is obviously not going to be astronomical.  Even if we only know of 4, that is going to be a significant minority of the available data set.

I’m not sure but are you flipping again and sort of applying real world statistics to this? Never mind, I don’t really care. 

The point is, we will know what the author wants/needs us to know. So if the author makes it a point that very few receive their knighthoods before a certain age, that is important. The end. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Yeah.  Well I already said that the majority were knighted at 16 or older.  Thanks for agreeing with me.

Did you? More power to you. :thumbsup:

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Bizarre semantic quibbles. 

Is bizarre better than stupid? Or worse? I can’t tell whether I’m growing on you or the opposite. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Does winning a major tournament (attended by the Royal Family) not count?

For Hasty to be considered a knight of “exceptional skill”? If so, IMO no, it doesn’t. 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Bonifer named Rhaella the queen of love and beauty.  Only the winner of a tournament gets to name the queen of love and beauty, by selecting one of the women present.

Yes. And mediocre/good/fairly good knights have won tournaments on occasion. Doesn’t mean they have “exceptional skills”. 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:
1 hour ago, Megorova said:

 

First mentioning of Dunk as a member of KG is 236, and at that time he was 43-45. It's very unlikely, that he sired a child at that age. Because, why would he wait with having children, until he had reached his 40s, and furthermore, became a member of KG?

I have been looking at the age and KG status myself and although I do think it's more likely he sired someone who is Brienne's ancestor before he joined the KG, I have to say Dunk is a good man but we don't need to attribute perfection to him. He did after all become a KG while not even being a knight. I'm not saying he didn't stick to his KG vows, just that its not a completely convincing argument.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Also, can you imagine Dunk leaving his adolescent children to join KG? I can't. If Dunk at some point in time had a family, then, most likely, he joined KG only after his children became adults, were 16, or older, and thus were born not later than in 220.

'leaving his children'? 'had a family'?? I think if he 'had a family' that he could 'leave' it would have been common knowledge. And why would he not marry them if it was all so nice? And if one of Brienne's ancestor's was openly the child of Ser Duncan the Tall even if illegitimate I think the current family would be boasting of it.

All Dunk had to do was get someone pregnant. That someone could have been single or married themselves. He may not even have known there was a child, or not until later, and marriage may not have been possible or the woman may not even have wanted it. 

Anyway after these objections I do in fact tend to agree with you about the timing. The shield hanging in the hall at Tarth seems like a farewell present! The time when he is going to join the KG and give up his shield for a white one seems like when he would be getting rid of the shield and it would be symbolic if he had been having an affair with someone. And yes that is pure slightly-less -than-random speculation.

I am surprised given how creative people on this thread are that no-one has ventured into tangled webs about how Rohanne Webber could be the woman in question. I thought she was a candidate until the World of Ice and Fire came out. The Dunk tales are written like adventure tales for children so we could assume Dunk's interlude in her solar was the children's version and something more took place. But in the World of Ice and Fire there is no mention of her having children during her marriage with Ser Eustace.

The whole story of her disappearance after marriage to Ser Gerold Lannister is peculiar, and could possibly be related in some way to Dunk, don't know how, but I think more likely the result of whatever plotting was going on at the Rock. 

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Or he changed his mind, because he realised, that there are three future saviours, three heads of the dragon, and that those three are not him and not Viserys or Aerys or Rhaella, but some other unborn yet Targaryens. 

Sure.  That's another theory.  No objection to other theories.  The more the merrier.

I was merely addressing the objection that my theory was impossible because of x, y and z. 

Quote

Those 11 in the list are exceptions.

I'm just following the evidence.  The text says that Bonifer was a young knight.  Folks insist that he must have been an older knight because most knights are older.   I see no evidence that most knights are significantly older than 16 when 1st knighted (only that this was true in year 28), but even if I did, the fact is that Bonifer is described as a young knight.  The text says that Bonifer and Rhaella were in love.  Folks say the text must be wrong and they can't really be in love because it's creepy for an older man to be in love with a young girl.  Well, okay.  If that is so, then, going by the text, I guess he can't a much older man, then.

But I see no reason to rule out the possibility that he is indeed an older man and it is indeed creepy.  That's possible too.  My theory  takes no position on whether he is an older man and creepy.   Neither do I see any need to rule out the possibility that he is indeed a "young knight". 

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Yes, you do. That's why it was such a big problem for Dunk in The Hedge Knight. Though, there are some tournaments, that are held specifically for squires, but they are less frequent than average tournaments, because who would be interested to watch some unknown squires competing? -> not a lot of people. Majority of tournaments are made for knights, and for the audience to watch knights competing.

You tell me I'm wrong, and admit I'm right in the next sentence, and again in the sentence after that.  You're also forgetting that both Brienne of Tarth and Sandor Clegane have won tournaments.  But by now I've lost track of what you were trying to prove.

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But his age/when he was sired, IS relevant, because, based on this information, we can either cross him out as Dunk's son or grandson, or to calculate, that it's likely, that he is Dunk's descendant.

I see no reason to limit the theory by narrowing down the possibilities, not even if I prefer some options over others.  And I don't agree with your definition of impossible.

I'm inclined to believe that Bonifer is a grandson, and that Dunk sired Bonifer's father before he became a KG member.  But that does not make other alternatives impossible.  

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First mentioning of Dunk as a member of KG is 236, and at that time he was 43-45. It's very unlikely, that he sired a child at that age. Because, why would he wait with having children, until he had reached his 40s, and furthermore, became a member of KG?

I don't know, but that does not make it impossible.  I'll wait till GRRM writes it, and decide whether it makes sense in the context of the story at that time.  

Who knows?  Maybe he married Tanselle Too Tall, and swore an oath to her.  And maybe he thought she was dead, so he joined the KG.  Only then to find her alive again, after he was in the KG.  Now he is bound by 2 conflicting oaths.  And maybe they both thought she was too old for children, precisely because she was past her mid 40s.  That's not really a theory.  That's just me trying to say I have no idea what GRRM is going to do, and I don't see why I should limit him unnecessarily.

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Thus, if Duncan had children (and he did), then they all were born prior 236, and thus, they were 10+ years older than Rhaella. 

Sure.  That's possible too.  In fact Dunk's child could be Bonifer's father, or Bonifer's mother.

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Also, can you imagine Dunk leaving his adolescent children to join KG?

Depends on the circumstances.  Maybe he does not know about them, only to find out about them later.  Maybe he believed, for a time, that they were dead.  Maybe any one of a hundred reasonable scenarios that you or I have not considered yet, because GRRM has not told us yet.

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I can't.

I guess I'm just more imaginative than you then, because I can imagine such things.  I can even imagine GRRM writing things I do not approve of and do not like.  I can even imagine GRRM writing things I was unable to predict because I'm not as imaginative as he is.

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If Dunk at some point in time had a family, then, most likely, he joined KG only after his children became adults, were 16, or older, and thus were born not later than in 220.

Fine.  In that case, one of these children could be Bonifer's mother or father.

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Especially because no one ever mentions Bonifer in relation to Summerhall's burning. If he was Duncan's son or grandson, then it's really weird, that it wasn't mentioned by anyone, that Bonifer's father/grandfather died at Summerhall.

There's all sorts of things we don't know about Summerhall because GRRM has placed a somewhat artificial cone of silence around the details of that tragedy.  I don't think you can conclude anything about this silence except that GRRM does not want us to know certain things yet.

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I see that you like this theory of yours, that Bonifer is Dunk's descendant, and you don't care much, that other posters don't agree with you.

No, I don't particularly care about the disagreement itself.  Social pressure, by itself, is never a real argument.

Quote

I also have several very questionable theories :rolleyes:

More power to you!  I'll have to poll some of them some time, so that you can gloat if any of them are proven correct.

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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5 hours ago, Castellan said:

The shield hanging in the hall at Tarth seems like a farewell present! 

You have altered the evidence to fit the theory.  The shield was not found hanging in the wall at Tarth, as if it were some family heirloom.  It was found in the armory, as if it were a piece of military equipment, being saved for such time as Lord of Tarth might need an extra shield to arm his soldiers.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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13 hours ago, Castellan said:

We are not going to have everything spelled out for us anyway, I hope. Some things will remain as they are, largely brushed in, but not covered with enough footnotes to convince the unconvincable.

 

 

:agree:

Yup. And leaving the breadcrumbs makes sense for a POV character. It's a nice little Easter Egg for the reader who pays attention. Having to perform a major forensic analysis to find a tertiary character described as 'Butthole' by Dunk's third successor as LC to be descended from Dunk - duh. What's the point? Subversion:leer:

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

You have altered the evidence to fit the theory.  The shield was not found hanging in the wall at Tarth, as if it were some family heirloom.  It was found in the armory, as if it were a piece of military equipment, being saved for such time as Lord of Tarth might need an extra shield to arm his soldiers.

You are right. I knew it was in the armoury but got carried away in thinking about. But still, its in Tarth, and I am not buying 'they could have bought it at a flea market' or any arbitrary explanation. He would have been getting rid of it when he was taking up a white shield, renouncing his sigil and the right to take wife. It could have been a farewell present or perhaps a bequest to a chlld.

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13 hours ago, Castellan said:

He did after all become a KG while not even being a knight. I'm not saying he didn't stick to his KG vows, just that its not a completely convincing argument.

I think that later, some time after TMK, Dunk admitted to Egg, that he is not a knight. So, later someone else knighted Egg, and then Egg knighted Dunk. Between 212 and 236, when Dunk supposedly joined KG, he had 24 years to be knighted. Dunk felt utterly ashamed every time his supposed knighthood was referred to, in The Sworn Sword or in The Mystery Knight. I don't think, that he was able to keep that a secret from Egg for all those years, that they were together. I think, that even if Dunk was remaining unknighted for all those years, he was definitely knighted by Egg, prior he became a KG. I think that Dunk is son of Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre, and that chipped garnet, that he has, is a piece of gemstone from the pomel of Blackfyre-sword. In span of Third Blackfyre Rebellion the sword was taken from Blackfyres, and it was mentioned that during those battles - "In 219 AC, Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Of the deeds done then, both good and ill—of the leadership of Maekar, the actions of Aerion Brightflame, the courage of Maekar’s youngest son, and the second duel between Bloodraven and Bittersteel—we know well. The pretender Haegon I Blackfyre died in the aftermath of battle, slain treacherously after he had given up his sword, but Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel, was taken alive and returned to the Red Keep in chains." At that time Egg was 19, and he did something courageous on that battlefield, so it's likely that that's when he was knighted. Probably, by his father, Maekar. It's possible, that when Bittertsteel was taken to The Wall, he was escorted there by Dunk and Egg. And that's when could have happened a situation, during which it became known to Dunk, who his father was. If they had Blackfyre-sword, while they were escorting Bittersteel, Dunk could have noticed, that on that sword the piece of gemstone is missing, and the missing piece is identical in shape to the gemstone, that he has. And it's likely, that it was Daemon himself, who gave that gemstone to Dunk, as an identification/prove that little Dunk is Daemon's son and a Blackfyre. So, originilly that gemstone belonged to Dunk, not to Arlan, it's just that Arlan took it from little Dunk for safekeeping, and Dunk found it amongst Arlan's possessions, only after Arlan's death. It's likely, that Bittersteel is aware of that story (Daemon giving that gemstone to his son), so he will figure out, that Dunk is a Blackfyre. Possibly Bittersteel's escape from that ship, has something to do with Dunk. And afterwards Egg used Blackfyre-sword to knight Dunk with it. And it happened prior Dunk became KG. Or something like that.

13 hours ago, Castellan said:

And why would he not marry them if it was all so nice? And if one of Brienne's ancestor's was openly the child of Ser Duncan the Tall even if illegitimate I think the current family would be boasting of it.

For example, Old Nan and Dunk were brown-haired girl and a tall knight, that Bran saw kissing, in one of his tree-visions. Possibly Old Nan is Alysanne Stark, younger sister of Willam Stark (grandfather of Rickard Stark). The two of them met at Winterfell, in span of The She-wolves of Winterfell novel, and fell in love, and had sex. He was going to marry with her, but something happened, and they were separated. For example, he was helping Starks to deal with wildlings, and got stuck beyond The Wall. Or he was helping to Starks to deal with Ironborn, and was captured by them, and sold into slavery to Essos, and it took him some time to get free, and to return back to Westeros. Or something like that, some sort of serious reason, why they were separated. Then it turned out, that she's pregnant, and her family forced her to get married with some other guy. So, her first child, born in that marriage, was actually Dunk's child, and the rest of her children were children of her husband. When Dunk had returned, it was already too late, his woman became someone else's wife, and his child legitimally was that man's child. Old Nan was wet nurse of Brandon Stark, whose mother died in childbirth. I think, that this Brandon was son of Willam Stark and his first wife, Lyanne Glover. So, when Lyanne died, Nan/Alysanne became wet nurse of her nephew. It is known, that Nan had two sons, and several daughters. I think, that Hodor and Brinne both are Nan's great-grandchildren. Could be, that Hodor's father and Brienne's mother (Pretty Meris) are brother and sister, and are children of Nan's son with Dunk, like this:

{Nan + Dunk} | Nan + husband

{Son} + wife = {several children} | Son, daugters

{Meris} + [Selwyn Tarth], {Son} + wife | ...

{[Brienne]}, {Hodor} | ...

And there was no boasting, because officially the father of Nan's children, including Dunk's child, was her husband and not Dunk. Meris is possibly Dunk's granddaughter, and that shield, that Brienne found in her father's armory, belonged to Meris, and before her to her grandfather, Duncan the Tall. And Meris knew, who her real grandfather was, though it was not a public knowledge. She had his shield, and that's it.

(Or Meris' parent was one of Nan's daughters. Maybe Dunk's child with Nan was a girl, one of those Nan's daughters, that moved away and died. So, Meris could be child of one of those daughters, and Hodor also is a grandchild of Nan's daughter, not of her son.

Or Duncan and Nan had twins, a boy and a girl. The boy is Hodor's grandfather, and the girl is Brienne's grandmother (Meris' mother).

It's just that with nearly zero information, and two generations between Dunk and Brienne/Hodor, it's problematic to figure out, which option is the most likely.)

14 hours ago, Castellan said:

The whole story of her disappearance after marriage to Ser Gerold Lannister is peculiar, and could possibly be related in some way to Dunk, don't know how, but I think more likely the result of whatever plotting was going on at the Rock. 

I think, that Rohanne was a blood-witch, and she had a gift of foresign. She left her family, when she was pregnant with her and Gerold's fifth child. She gave birth to that child, a daughter, already after she left, and that child was Jenny of Oldstones. And the wood's witch, the Ghost of High Heart, that Jenny had brought into Targaryen court, was her mother, Rohanne Webber-Lannister (and Dunk didn't recognised her, because last time they had seen each other, it was over 20 years ago. And if Jenny had brought her mother into court, many years after she met Duncan the Small, some time prior Aerys' and Rhaella's wedding (in 258 or so), then nearly 50 years had passed). Then, during the burning of Summerhall, Jenny was kidnapped by Blackfyres. And some time later, she gave birth to her son, Varys. And the father is either Duncan Targaryen, or, if impregnation happened after Summerhall, then the father is one of the kidnappers, either Maelys the Monstrous, or Daemon the Last Blackfyre (the one that was killed by Maelys). So, Varys is the Spider, because his maternal grandmother is Rohanne Webber, the Red Widow.

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11 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'll have to poll some of them some time, so that you can gloat if any of them are proven correct.

Don't. They are already recorded here, and there, such as in the thread https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153103-for-the-record-and-posterity/

and there are already some polls about whether Rhaego is alive, and whether Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, who is Lemore, etc.,

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153553-percentage-poll-on-various-theories/

and more.

 So, no need. But thanks.

P.S. You're probably right, that even if Bonifer is older than Rhaella, it doesn't mean, that they couldn't have fallen in love. For example, there was 17 years age gap between Dany and Drogo, Jorah is three times older than Dany, and his wife was also significally younger than him, etc.

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On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 2:01 AM, Ser Hedge said:

 

:agree:

Yup. And leaving the breadcrumbs makes sense for a POV character. It's a nice little Easter Egg for the reader who pays attention. Having to perform a major forensic analysis to find a tertiary character described as 'Butthole' by Dunk's third successor as LC to be descended from Dunk - duh. What's the point? Subversion:leer:

In my opinion, it demonstrates the weakness of the Brienne theory is that it seems to serve no purpose in the story.  Hence, an "Easter Egg". 

But what is an "Easter Egg"?  I always thought it was only a lazy piece of fan-service, inserted into blockbuster movies as a regrettable form of pandering; so that a teenaged boy will feel clever, and pat himself on the head, merely because he noticed it and his mom did not.  It is harmless at best, and at worst an annoying crutch used by artists who lack creativity or the ability to tell a coherent story.

You evidently feel that it would be "Subversion" if GRRM were NOT to give you the meaningless "Easter Egg" you think he has given you.  But why would that be "subversion"?  Who expects "Easter Eggs" in multi-volume fantasy novels?  Did Tolkien insert meaningless "Easter Eggs" into The Lord of the Rings

Or perhaps you merely mean that you think Brienne is Dunk's descendant, and that if it should turn out otherwise, GRRM will have subverted YOUR expectations.  But that's hardly his fault, is it?  He never told you Brienne was Dunk's descendant.

The history of this debate suggests that GRRM did not go out of his way to plant any "Easter Eggs".   He was ASKED if Dunk had any descendant(s) in the main series, and he answered "yes".   

He, she, or they already existed, presumably because they were already part of his planned story, and GRRM revealed that they existed only because he was asked about them, and it happened to be true.  He refused to say more, probably (I would guess) because that would be a spoiler for the future Dunk & Egg novellas (which I suppose will end with the Summerhall tragedy and the birth of Rhaegar) and/or the future volumes of the main series (which I suppose will feature spoilerish revelations as to the the identity of Rhaegar's descendant(s)).

At Balticon, GRRM never confirmed that Brienne was Dunk's descendant.  But he did promise that "all will be revealed in time".  

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

In my opinion, it demonstrates the weakness of the Brienne theory is that it seems to serve no purpose in the story.  Hence, an "Easter Egg". 

But what is an "Easter Egg"?  I always thought it was only a lazy piece of fan-service, inserted into blockbuster movies as a regrettable form of pandering; so that a teenaged boy will feel clever, and pat himself on the head, merely because he noticed it and his mom did not.  It is harmless at best, and at worst an annoying crutch used by artists who lack creativity or the ability to tell a coherent story.

You evidently feel that it would be "Subversion" if GRRM were NOT to give you the meaningless "Easter Egg" you think he has given you.  But why would that be "subversion"?  Who expects "Easter Eggs" in multi-volume fantasy novels?  Did Tolkien insert meaningless "Easter Eggs" into The Lord of the Rings

Or perhaps you merely mean that you think Brienne is Dunk's descendant, and that if it should turn out otherwise, GRRM will have subverted YOUR expectations.  But that's hardly his fault, is it?  He never told you Brienne was Dunk's descendant.

The history of this debate suggests that GRRM did not go out of his way to plant any "Easter Eggs".   He was ASKED if Dunk had any descendant(s) in the main series, and he answered "yes".   

He, she, or they already existed, presumably because they were already part of his planned story, and GRRM revealed that they existed only because he was asked about them, and it happened to be true.  He refused to say more, probably (I would guess) because that would be a spoiler for the future Dunk & Egg novellas (which I suppose will end with the Summerhall tragedy and the birth of Rhaegar) and/or the future volumes of the main series (which I suppose will feature spoilerish revelations as to the the identity of Rhaegar's descendant(s)).

At Balticon, GRRM never confirmed that Brienne was Dunk's descendant.  But he did promise that "all will be revealed in time".  

Let's try again w/o 'Easter Egg' and 'subversion'.

It doesn't have to be Brienne, Hodor would work too, but in that case Dunk's shield at Tarth would be pointless. Why bother writing that in? Both Brienne and Hodor would work as well obviously. And by 'work' I mean tying the two series together symbolically in a way not completely manufactured. Maybe 'tie' is too strong, think of it as a nod to one of the protagonists from the prequel by incorporating his values or positive traits in a character (POV character or a character associated with a POV character, one we've come to know from early in the series) in ASOIAF.

A tertiary character that Jamie calls 'Butthole' is absolutely pointless to be revealed as Dunk's descendant unless we get to know him much better and he does something significant which seems extremely unlikely given the amount of story still left to tell for all the POVs.

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7 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Let's try again w/o 'Easter Egg' and 'subversion'.

It doesn't have to be Brienne, Hodor would work too, but in that case Dunk's shield at Tarth would be pointless. Why bother writing that in? Both Brienne and Hodor would work as well obviously. And by 'work' I mean tying the two series together symbolically in a way not completely manufactured. Maybe 'tie' is too strong, think of it as a nod to one of the protagonists from the prequel by incorporating his values or positive traits in a character (POV character or a character associated with a POV character, one we've come to know from early in the series) in ASOIAF.

A tertiary character that Jamie calls 'Butthole' is absolutely pointless to be revealed as Dunk's descendant unless we get to know him much better and he does something significant which seems extremely unlikely given the amount of story still left to tell for all the POVs.

You keep repeating the nickname "Butthole" as if this point had immense significance.  This inspired me with the idea that perhaps I should start addressing you as "Butthole" to hammer home the point that name-calling has no particular relevance.  But the mods might miss the point, so maybe I won't.

Again, Jaime is a villain -- a vain, arrogant, narcissistic, glory-hungry villain.  If his opinion is relevant, it should only be to ironically point us in the opposite direction.   And if that were not enough, one of his reasons for contempt is that Bonifer's forces do not rape, unlike so many of the Lannister creatures.  And I suppose "Butthole" metaphorically represents the Lannister assumption that if you are not abusing your power over others, you must be weak, and hence a victim of abuse. 

Apart from the non-raping, Jaime has a low opinion of Bonifer and his men, mainly because he has heard little of them, one way or another.  He has perhaps failed to consider that honest, decent humble men tend to fly under the radar of pride-filled glory-seekers like himself.  If Jaime and Bonifer were to ever have a face-off, I think Jaime might be in for an unpleasant surprise; and learn that Bonifer did not stop being a good fighter when he turned his back on the "empty vanity" of the tournament scene.

You complain that Bonifer is a "tertiary character"?  But there are at least 6 more Dunk and Egg stories to come.  What role will Dunk's descendant play in that story?  We know Brienne won't play a role, because she's only 19, and was not around 41 years ago.  We know Hodor won't play a role, because he's probably not much older.  Even if they are Dunk's descendants, they are not the Dunk's descendants who will play any role in the Dunk & Egg stories.   So you tell me:  Is the Dunk's descendant, who will appear in the planned Dunk & Egg stories, even mentioned in the main series?    If the answer is "yes", then tell me who he or she is.   But if your answer is "no", then what is the point in complaining that Bonifer is "tertiary"?  "Tertiary" sure beats "not appearing at all".

And of course if Bonifer is Rhaegar's father, as the theory holds, he forms a link to any surviving descendants of Rhaegar, who may be primary characters -- who may be TPTWP and/or the 3 heads of the dragon.  These will also be descendants of Dunk.

To put it another way:  Bonifer beats Never Mentioned (Prior Generation); and Jon Snow beats Brienne (Current Generation), (assuming R+L=J, and not necessarily ruling out other or alternate theories).

Will a descendant of Dunk  play any role in the Summerhall tragedy?   I don't know, but when I formulate theories, I tend to look for converging plot threads, instead of assuming that the plot will continue to branch and splinter indefinitely.  So the idea that the mystery of Dunk's descendant, and the mystery of the Summerhall tragedy, might be somehow connected, seems to me to be worth exploring.  Hence, Jaime's vague recollection that Bonifer might be haunted by some tragedy, seems like it might be a clue.

What's the point of Dunk's shield appearing in AFFC?  I don't know.  But again, the story is ongoing, and we cannot really tell what GRRM is setting up here.  Note that the shield was taken from her when she fell at the Inn of the Crossroads, and we have no information that she ever got it back.  And this shield is not Dunk's original shield.  It is a Lothston shield that got painted over.  Dunk's original shield is, presumably, still out there.

But you cannot reach certain conclusions from lack of knowledge.  GRRM was explicitly asked, by a fan, if Dunk's shield was the clue or if this was too obvious.  GRRM rather pointedly failed to give a meaningful response to this question.  I guess he just does not want us to know the answer … yet.

But if it were only a meaningless "Easter Egg", then why not confirm?  Why not say, "Yes, you found it, congratulations"?  Maybe there's more to the story.  Maybe GRRM still has secrets.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

You complain that Bonifer is a "tertiary character"? 

In the main series as of now

5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

But there are at least 6 more Dunk and Egg stories to come.  What role will Dunk's descendant play in that story?  We know Brienne won't play a role, because she's only 19, and was not around 41 years ago.  We know Hodor won't play a role, because he's probably not much older.  Even if they are Dunk's descendants, they are not the Dunk's descendants who will play any role in the Dunk & Egg stories.   So you tell me:  Is the Dunk's descendant, who will appear in the planned Dunk & Egg stories, even mentioned in the main series?    If the answer is "yes", then tell me who he or she is.   But if your answer is "no", then what is the point in complaining that Bonifer is "tertiary"?  "Tertiary" sure beats "not appearing at all".

What are you talking about? Dunk's descendant has to appear in the remaining D&E stories and in the main series? errr... why?

 

Edited by Ser Hedge

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5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

This inspired me with the idea that perhaps I should start addressing you as "Butthole" to hammer home the point that name-calling has no particular relevance. 

Go on then.

5 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

But the mods might miss the point, so maybe I won't.

Oh it's only because of the mods! Mods, please let the user do it :bawl:

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2 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

What are you talking about? Dunk's descendant has to appear in the remaining D&E stories and in the main series? errr... why?

You tell me.  Was that not your objection?  Did you not take the position that an immediate descendant of Dunk cannot appear ONLY as a tertiary character in the main series?  How is it better that an immediate descendant of Dunk not be mentioned at all?  Why should GRRM have to choose between making a descendant of Dunk a main character in the main series, and not mentioning him/her at all?

That was your objection to Bonifer?  That he was a tertiary character?  But you're perfectly okay with Brienne's grandma/grandpa, linking her to Dunk, never being mentioned?  I don't get it.

I never suggested that Bonifer was the only descendant of Dunk.  I think there are 3 more, the 3 heads of the dragon, Rhaegar's 3 surviving children, possibly including:  (1) Rhaegars child(ren) by Elia ; (2) Rhaegar's child(ren) by Ashara; (3) Rhaegar's child(ren) by Lyanna.   And I'm pretty sure that at least some of these, and perhaps all 3, are POV characters we currently know.

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

Go on then.

Oh it's only because of the mods! Mods, please let the user do it :bawl:

Nice try buddy.  But the instant I do it, you will cackle evilly while hitting the report button.  :)

 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Was that not your objection? 

No.

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Did you not take the position that an immediate descendant of Dunk cannot appear ONLY as a tertiary character in the main series?

No. Where did you get 'immediate' from?

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

How is it better that an immediate descendant of Dunk not be mentioned at all?

Don't know why you're stuck on 'immediate' descendant. Everyone was having a bit of fun which character in the main series might be 'a' descendant of Dunk. (For some mysterious reason, the thread has ceased being fun some time ago and I think everyone has probably moved on here.)

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Why should GRRM have to choose between making a descendant of Dunk a main character in the main series, and not mentioning him/her at all?

He implies he chose to write a character in the main series as a descendant of Dunk. There are already some clues that might point to Hodor and Brienne. Perhaps he develops the story further in the remaining D&E to tell us more about how it came to be they're his descendants. I sure hope he doesn't read this trainwreck of a thread and says "Goddamn these losers, I'm sooooo done with this sheeeeet. How about Egg starts a sperm bank and Dunk is the biggest draw with ravens flying his product to the length and breadth of the 7Ks? Howdayya like that bitches? To think I wasted my time giving these shitheads some clues! Jeez, why did I even bother ?"

 

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

That was your objection to Bonifer?  That he was a tertiary character? 

It wouldn't seem to be worth the trouble to drop clues in the main series for a peripheral character unless there was room to grow that character further in the main series, which seems very unlikely.

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

But you're perfectly okay with Brienne's grandma/grandpa, linking her to Dunk, never being mentioned?

Never being mentioned in the main series? Yes.

In D&E: Would be nice to read their story there. Whether it's Brienne's nan or Hodor's nan/mum, or both.

20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I never suggested that Bonifer was the only descendant of Dunk

Oh, in that case you're open to Brienne and/or Hodor ....

21 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I think there are 3 more, the 3 heads of the dragon, Rhaegar's 3 surviving children, possibly including:  (1) Rhaegars child(ren) by Elia ; (2) Rhaegar's child(ren) by Ashara; (3) Rhaegar's child(ren) by Lyanna.  

... I guess not then.

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7 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

No. Where did you get 'immediate' from?

Under your theory, Brienne's grandma/grandma would obviously be more immediate descendant of Dunk than Brienne.  And under my theory, Ser Bonifer would obviously be a more immediate descendant of Dunk than (say) Jon Snow.  This is not a difficult concept.  Children and grandchildren are closer, or more "immediate" than great grandchildren and great-great grandchildren

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Don't know why you're stuck on 'immediate' descendant.

I'm not stuck on immediate descendants at all.  Under my theory, Bonifer, the 'immediate' descendant, is a link between Dunk and the later descendants, such as (assuming R+L=J) Jon Snow.

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Everyone was having a bit of fun which character in the main series might be 'a' descendant of Dunk. (For some mysterious reason, the thread has ceased being fun some time ago and I think everyone has probably moved on here.)

Oh my!  Well, I'm sorry you feel that way.  I am sorry that I "spoiled your fun" by daring to suggest an alternative to your own pet theory.  I hope your sense of fun makes a recovery, in time, and that the injury has not been fatal.

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He implies he chose to write a character in the main series as a descendant of Dunk.

That's not really how he put it.

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There are already some clues that might point to Hodor and Brienne.

Sure.  I can certainly agree that there are arguable clues that "might point to" Hodor and/or Brienne.  I don't think they are particularly compelling clues, nor do I think they are necessarily the clue GRRM had in mind.  I can think of alternatives.  And I have presented an alternative, which I happen to think is better.  "IMHO", as I said.

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Perhaps he develops the story further in the remaining D&E to tell us more about how it came to be they're his descendants.

Sure.  He can do this with Brienne's grandma (if your theory is correct), and he can do this with Bonifer (if my theory is correct).

I just don't see how Bonifer also appearing, as a tertiary character, in the main series, is a point against my theory.

Quote

I sure hope he doesn't read this trainwreck of a thread and says "Goddamn these losers, I'm sooooo done with this sheeeeet. How about Egg starts a sperm bank and Dunk is the biggest draw with ravens flying his product to the length and breadth of the 7Ks? Howdayya like that bitches? To think I wasted my time giving these shitheads some clues! Jeez, why did I even bother ?"

Again, I am sorry you feel that way.  But it seems you are projecting your own feelings onto GRRM.  GRRM does not mind when fans guess wrong.  He likes to surprise them.   

And if he really wants us to know for certain, he can tell us at any time.  Instead, he has been coy about this for at least the last 18 years.

I really don't think he has any temptation to call me a "shithead" for having a wrong theory.  I think that's you.  I think that's all you.

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It wouldn't seem to be worth the trouble to drop clues in the main series for a peripheral character unless there was room to grow that character further in the main series, which seems very unlikely.

Under my theory, Dunk's descendants by way of Bonifer by way of Rhaegar, possibly including Jon Snow, have room to grow.  Just because Jon Snow's grandpa (under my theory) makes a an appearance as a tertiary charcter, does not prevent that,  And I don't see why we should not learn more about Bonifer in the main series either.   He's old enough to know stuff from long ago.  Perhaps he can reveal stuff from long ago.

Would it really weaken your Brienne theory if Brienne's grandma, who is Dunk's daughter or granddaughter, appeared as a tertiary character in the main series?  I can't see how.  So I can't see how Bonifer's appearance as a tertiary character weakens my theory.

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Oh, in that case you're open to Brienne and/or Hodor ….

Sure I am.  I'm open to all kinds of possibilities.    

Even under my theory, it is possible that Brienne is a descendant of Dunk by way of Bonifer and Rhaegar.  Perhaps she is the child of Rhaegar and Ashara, afflicted with a form of giantism as a delayed side effect of too much Targ inbreeding (as with Bloodraven's albinism or Shiera Seastar's mismatched eyes).  Perhaps when Ned took her, he smuggled her to be raised by the Lord of Tarth.  And perhaps, to further conceal her identity, the Lord of Tarth passed her off as older than she really is, which was easy on account of her size.  

Alternatively, it is possible that Dunk had multiple children (or grandchildren), and that there are multiple lines of descent from Dunk, one through Bonifer, and one through your grandma of Tarth.

It is also possible my theory is wrong.  I never claimed certainty.  I merely objected to claims of certainty regarding the Brienne theory, which I believe are far from justified, and suggested that alternatives are possible.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Re:  Bonifer, per Barristan:

"Afterward he became most pious, and was heard to say that only the Maiden could replace Queen Rhaella in his heart."

Notice the word "Queen".  Bonifer did not make this statement (and perhaps not become most pious) until after the Summerhall tragedy. 

Per Jaime:  "Something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, …."

"

Edited by Platypus Rex

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