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Posted (edited)
On 7/12/2019 at 1:37 AM, Triskele said:

So confused about Blood Meridian.  Heard so many good things, read maybe like the first 1/3, quit not only in despair but in boredom.  Ought I persist?  

Well, if it isn't Eponine.  

 

People tend to have quite strong opinions about Blood Meridian one way or the other. It is the slog of slogs and not for everyone.

I wouldn't persist if you didn't enjoy the first third. It's not as if it changes much from there.

Edited by Paxter

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1 hour ago, Eponine said:

I am enjoying this information about Bakker immensely. Couldn't be happier if I'd read it myself Much happier than if I'd read it myself since I find much about the books insufferable despite having interesting ideas. But isn't there supposed to be a part 3? 

Maybe. He had no publisher for it at the moment and has said he won’t crowdfund or self publish.

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On 7/11/2019 at 11:37 PM, Triskele said:

So confused about Blood Meridian.  Heard so many good things, read maybe like the first 1/3, quit not only in despair but in boredom.  Ought I persist?  

Well, if it isn't Eponine.  

 

For me, it's the use of language--harsh, otherwordly, surreal in its use of grammar and vocabulary-- coupled with the harsh deconstruction of the Wild West mythos that cements it in my personal pantheon of favorites. But as said elsewhere, if you're not digging the first third, it isn't going to shift gears later on.

Blood Meridian is the only of his novels I'd re-read, though, except maybe Outer Dark. Most are slogs, and his later books (The Road, Old Country) are IMO pale shadows of his peak (Child of God through Blood Meridian).

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Eponine said:

@Triskele

Can you spoiler tag what happened with Bakker in like 2 sentences? (I read the PoN but none of the Aspect Emperor and was not impressed). If not I'll Google it but have no intention of trying to back-read the 500 threads...

 

 

Bakker wanted to include his glossary in the final volume, which would have pushed it to GRRM-esque doorstopper size. His publisher didn't pay much attention to him. Bakker entered re-negotiations to make TAE a four-parter and conspired with someone who sometimes posted here to raise a ruckus about how Bakker was being mistreated (and RSB fabricated a shucks-poor-lil-me persona on his blog), how the books weren't being given attention or any editorial oversight, etc. A minor ruckus was raised, enough to (we assume) split the last book into two. 

If this weird drama wasn't enough, the third book was actually pretty good but the last book shifted from grimdark to edgelord in several places and appeared to have little editorial oversight in the prose. Worse, all the revelation stuff was mostly bunk, with the actual reveal/final "twist" being cool on the surface but empty in reflection. After all Bakker's hyperbole about how he was reinventing the wheel across nearly a decade, the paucity of the end result, along with the publication drama, along with some, ahem, choice quotes from Bakker on an ill-advised As Me Anything--it did not go over well with his small but relatively rabid fanbase.

 

Edited by kuenjato

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52 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Bakker wanted to include his glossary in the final volume, which would have pushed it to GRRM-esque doorstopper size. His publisher didn't pay much attention to him. Bakker entered re-negotiations to make TAE a four-parter and conspired with someone who sometimes posted here to raise a ruckus about how Bakker was being mistreated (and RSB fabricated a shucks-poor-lil-me persona on his blog), how the books weren't being given attention or any editorial oversight, etc. A minor ruckus was raised, enough to (we assume) split the last book into two. 

If this weird drama wasn't enough, the third book was actually pretty good but the last book shifted from grimdark to edgelord in several places and appeared to have little editorial oversight in the prose. Worse, all the revelation stuff was mostly bunk, with the actual reveal/final "twist" being cool on the surface but empty in reflection. After all Bakker's hyperbole about how he was reinventing the wheel across nearly a decade, the paucity of the end result, along with the publication drama, along with some, ahem, choice quotes from Bakker on an ill-advised As Me Anything--it did not go over well with his small but relatively rabid fanbase.

 

Heh, that's all, uh, a nicer way to say it then I would have. Not sure how much I can say but the person he uh, conspired with, did a lot more then that, in various places.

Short version though: Bakker shot his career in the foot, then stabbed it, set it on fire, and threw it in the ocean.

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38 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Heh, that's all, uh, a nicer way to say it then I would have. Not sure how much I can say but the person he uh, conspired with, did a lot more then that, in various places.

Short version though: Bakker shot his career in the foot, then stabbed it, set it on fire, and threw it in the ocean.

I'm not aware of the full extent of it, just what went on around here -- in particular, someone claiming to have read the whole book, and giving raves across the board, when in reality he'd only seen TGO. That, and the bullshit campaign to email Bakker's publisher demanding the release of the last book(s), and how that campaign was conducted here.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

I'm not aware of the full extent of it, just what went on around here -- in particular, someone claiming to have read the whole book, and giving raves across the board, when in reality he'd only seen TGO. That, and the bullshit campaign to email Bakker's publisher demanding the release of the last book(s), and how that campaign was conducted here.

Yeah, there was also a separate person who did some unofficial ad campaign for book 4, teasing a bunch of questions that we would get answered, that it turns out we didn't, causes he hadn't actually read the book. It was...weird.

Edited by Darth Richard II

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I havent even read Bakker but dipped in to reading the threads for sheer entertainment value. 5% (too generous?) actual discussion, 95% MSJ getting pissy that people didnt fawn over it, the ocassional rise of madness. Fun stuff

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I havent even read Bakker but dipped in to reading the threads for sheer entertainment value. 5% (too generous?) actual discussion, 95% MSJ getting pissy that people didnt fawn over it, the ocassional rise of madness. Fun stuff

The discussion on Bakker had its golden years from 2006 to maybe 2014? This includes the notorious Bakker and Women threads, where Bakker assumed a sock puppet to defend his work. The actual theory discussion involving material from TJE and then WLW reached pretty epic proportions by some serious deep thinkers 'round these parts, a period of contemplation and invention augmented by the lengthy delay. But by the time the last two books came out, the weird drama had been partially revealed and the response was positive to lukewarm on TGO. The release of the last book generated a fairly negative impression among most the long-time readers in here, and became an amusing if frustrating exercise in dealing with obtuse 'defenses' of the series. Most discussion petered out after that, in part by Bakker's own silence on his blog and elsewhere.

I can remember a time when there were three Bakker threads on the front page of Literature. And that was really the biggest issue with The Unholy Consult -- the various theories articulated here, from the philosophical to the potential resolve of the gender issues in the series, were far better than the book we got. 

Edited by kuenjato

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Yeah, all the theories turned out to be meaningless as all the hints/clues people thought they found turned out to mean nothing and were basically random shit Bakker made up as he went. 

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Posted (edited)

I don't blame Bakker for being unable to come up with answers as creative as what we had on the board.  There was some pretty intense speculation by a couple dozen people over the course of years.  Within that pressure cooker the good ideas were revealed and the bad ones forgotten, and some of the theories were indeed very interesting and worth exploring.  But instead we got TUC. 

Edited by Maithanet

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14 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I havent even read Bakker but dipped in to reading the threads for sheer entertainment value. 5% (too generous?) actual discussion, 95% MSJ getting pissy that people didnt fawn over it, the ocassional rise of madness. Fun stuff

The Bakker threads are non stop lolz if you ask me.  Surprised that you've read them though, though threads were dug deep to hide from the eyes of the mods.

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Everyone knows White Noise is DeLillo’s best work

i've liked ratner's star best, though falling man and underworld tie for second.  white noise is what you give to people who haven't read any delillo, by contrast.

 

Ought I persist? 

probably.  if you dug the road, they share the same imaginary.

 

Am still expecting RSB part III and considering it all unfinished until then, much like the faerie queen or the canterbury tales or the aeneid.

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1 hour ago, sologdin said:

Everyone knows White Noise is DeLillo’s best work

i've liked ratner's star best, though falling man and underworld tie for second.  white noise is what you give to people who haven't read any delillo, by contrast.

 

Ought I persist? 

probably.  if you dug the road, they share the same imaginary.

 

Am still expecting RSB part III and considering it all unfinished until then, much like the faerie queen or the canterbury tales or the aeneid.

I prefer Mao II to any of those, particularly Underworld, which I found pretty dull outside the opening.

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The problem with the whole Bakker has more books coming is that after the AMA we know the books actually contain zero hints or foreshadowing or anything of the kind, so speculation about future books is somewhat meaningless.

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4 hours ago, kuenjato said:

I prefer Mao II to any of those, particularly Underworld, which I found pretty dull outside the opening.

I find all of DeLillo's writing simultaneously fascinatingly crafted and stultifyingly dull. 

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7 minutes ago, Eponine said:

I find all of DeLillo's writing simultaneously fascinatingly crafted and stultifyingly dull. 

Pretty spot on, we should put that in the Goodreads quote section :smoking:

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