Garlan could not have been the poisoner

[John Suburbs]

One thing that keeps coming up in the Purple Wedding is how Garlan had to be the one to poison the chalice. He is the only Tyrell near enough to reach up to the rim and drop the poison in, as both Leonette and Lady Olenna are too small. But even this last straw is disproved by the text. Garlan was at least three places away from the chalice during the entire time it should have been poisoned.

As always, let's start with the text:

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He and Sansa had been seated far to the king's right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette.

So, they are to the right, beside Garlan and Leonette. At this point, we don't know the order they are sitting in or whether Tyrion and Sansa or Garlan or Leonette are closer to the king or farther away, but this last point is irrelevant to our discussion anyway. The takeaway here is that both couples are seated side-by-side, with no one between them.

The second piece of salient information comes a few pages later:

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"If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I'll do is hang all the singers," said Tyrion, too loudly.

Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, "A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant."

This is crucial because now we have a seating order. Lady Leonette is beside Tyrion, and Garlan has to lean over to enter the conversation. Any rational person would seat married couples together, so I think it's safe to assume that Leonette is not on one side of Tyrion and Garlan on the other, leaving Sansa one place away from her husband. This means the order as confirmed by the text is Tyrion-Leonette-Garlan (or vice versa), and logic dictates that Sansa is sitting next to Tyrion, not three places away next to Garlan. In fact, we can confirm this in the text by the multiple private conversations that Tyrion and Sansa have throughout the evening, and at one point Tyrion even contemplates what Sansa's reaction would be if he suddenly leaned over and kissed her, which would not be his first thought if he had to climb on or over either Leonette or Garlan to do so.

We also know that the wine was not poisoned before the big pie came in. Joffrey takes a big chug of wine, leaves his chalice on the table, and then joins Margaery on the floor for the pie ceremony, which lasts several minutes -- with the chalice remaining right where Joff left it the whole time. 

The final piece, of course, comes a few chapters later when Tyrion is pondering things in his cell:

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Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow (har!), Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he'd given her ample reason.

I think we can grant Tyrion a little hyperbole and conclude that the chalice was not practically in her lap, but this does show that it was closer to Sansa than anyone else. So now we have the chalice in front of Sansa, which places it three seats away from Garlan, way too far for him to reach, and it is utterly implausible that neither Tyrion nor Sansa would notice Garlan leaving his place, walking to their seats, and reaching between them to the lip of the chalice, then walking back.

There is the possibility, of course, that the person next to Sansa made the drop. It seems, after all, that Tyrion and Sansa are sitting on the Tyrell side of the table, not the Lannister side (if indeed, this is how it went), so there is a good chance that this person is a Tyrell (or Redwyne or Fossoway, etc.), but I tend to think that Martin would not play it this way and offer us no clue as to who this mystery person might be.

And then, of course, there is the fact that wine theory is fertile ground for increasingly thin straws, so there is always the possibility that the ever-present "trusted servant" could have snuck the poison past Tyrion and Sansa, or that one of the pigeons was trained to drop it in, or (my personal favorite) Butterbumps juggled it in from 20 yards away. But whatever you choose to believe, the text is conclusive: it could not have been Garlan.

[Megorova]

Olenna Tyrell had brought poison (that she previously ripped out of Sansa's hair-net), and gave it to Garlan, and also gave him a command, that he should do it now, by mentioning The Rains of Castamere.

Here both of them were near each other, and she passed a poison to Garlan:

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Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. “Your Grace,” was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent. It drenched his hair, stung his eyes, burned in his wound, ran down his cheeks, and soaked the velvet of his new doublet. “How do you like that, Imp?” Joffrey mocked.

Tyrion’s eyes were on fire. He dabbed at his face with the back of a sleeve and tried to blink the world back into clarity. “That was ill done, Your Grace,” he heard Ser Garlan say quietly.

“Not at all, Ser Garlan.” Tyrion dare not let this grow any uglier than it was, not here, with half the realm looking on. “Not every king would think to honor a humble subject by serving him from his own royal chalice. A pity the wine spilled.”

“It didn’t spill,” said Joffrey, too graceless to take the retreat Tyrion offered him. “And I wasn’t serving you, either.”

Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.”

“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.”

Then Tyrion refilled Joffrey's wine. He drunk a bit of it, and placed it on the table near Tyrion's place. And when Tyrion was trying to get up, Garlan gave him a hand. Though before that, he was in a perfect position to drop the poison in the chalice, while he was going towards Tyrion, to help him to get up.

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“Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well,” said Margaery. “Your Grace, please.”

“I have no wine,” Joffrey declared. “How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won’t joust you’ll be my cupbearer.”

“I would be most honored.”

“It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. “You can get up now, Uncle.”

His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him a hand.

To help Tyrion to get up, he had to leave his own seat, go around his wife's chair, that was standing near Tyrion, and, prior he lent his hand to Tyrion, he dropped poison in Joffrey's wine.

So, what you wrote about their sitting arrangements - Sansa - Tyrion - Leonette - Garlan - is an evidence, that the poisoner is Garlan. To give a hand to Tyrion, he had to stand near Tyrion's seat. It's unlikely, that he was just leaning from his own seat, above his wife, to give a hand to Tyrion, who was on the floor, because to do that like this, he had to lean on his wife's lap, and it didn't happened like that. Thus, he was standing near Tyrion, and had a perfect opportunity to drop the poison into wine, while he was there. And Tyrion didn't noticed anything, because whatever Garlan was doing above the table, was concealed from Tyrion by the table's top.

And everything happened very fast, Joffrey said to Tyrion, that Tyrion can get up, and Garlan was already there, and gave him a hand. Why was he standing there? Unless he can predict future, there was no way for him to know, that Tyrion will need help to get up. Thus, Garlan was standing there, to drop poison into Joffrey's wine, and it just happened so, that when he did it, Tyrion was getting up, and needed help, so Garlan gave him a hand.

[Lord Varys]

That is a pretty bad case.

The idea that the chalice was effectively in Sansa's lap is clearly hyperbole. It was as close to her as it was to Garlan/Leonette. And the idea never was that Garlan did not have to lean in to put the Strangler into the chalice - the idea is that he did that at a moment when nobody else was when nobody paid the chalice or him any mind: when Joff was cutting the wedding pie.

He could have leaned to kiss/talk to his wife, stretching out an arm to put the poison into the chalice, he could have stood up to straighten his doublet or getting a better look, increasing his reach that way.

The narrator never tells where exactly Joff put the chalice when he left it. All that's clear is that Tyrion had to climb on his chair again to reach the thing. That makes it clear it must have been close to his own seat, but not necessarily exactly where Tyrion was sitting.

The entire point of the scene as described is that Tyrion didn't notice anything when the wine was poisoned - because whoever did it moved in such a way as to be not noticed by either him or Sansa.

But that doesn't allow us to conclude there was no poisoner. In any case, though, Leonette could work just as well as Garlan - what makes Garlan a very likely candidate in my opinion is his continuous - and, if he is the poisoner, rather insidious - praise of Tyrion. He congratulates him for his role during the Blackwater, he criticizes Joffrey for emptying the chalice on Tyrion, etc. - all that very effectively ensured that Tyrion would never suspect Garlan Tyrell or Leonette Fossoway.

And that was no unimportant. Depending on the way events unfolded after Joff's death - plan A was to make it an accident, plan B already was to frame Tyrion. The framing here had to work in such a manner that Tyrion would not be able to react by trying to blame the Tyrells - that nobody would ever think to suspect Garlan and his wife despite their proximity to the chalice. And that was ensured by making Garlan Tyrion's only friend and defender at court.

[John Suburbs]

On 7/1/2019 at 12:16 PM, Megorova said:

Olenna Tyrell had brought poison (that she previously ripped out of Sansa's hair-net), and gave it to Garlan, and also gave him a command, that he should do it now, by mentioning The Rains of Castamere.

Here both of them were near each other, and she passed a poison to Garlan:

Then Tyrion refilled Joffrey's wine. He drunk a bit of it, and placed it on the table near Tyrion's place. And when Tyrion was trying to get up, Garlan gave him a hand. Though before that, he was in a perfect position to drop the poison in the chalice, while he was going towards Tyrion, to help him to get up.

To help Tyrion to get up, he had to leave his own seat, go around his wife's chair, that was standing near Tyrion, and, prior he lent his hand to Tyrion, he dropped poison in Joffrey's wine.

So, what you wrote about their sitting arrangements - Sansa - Tyrion - Leonette - Garlan - is an evidence, that the poisoner is Garlan. To give a hand to Tyrion, he had to stand near Tyrion's seat. It's unlikely, that he was just leaning from his own seat, above his wife, to give a hand to Tyrion, who was on the floor, because to do that like this, he had to lean on his wife's lap, and it didn't happened like that. Thus, he was standing near Tyrion, and had a perfect opportunity to drop the poison into wine, while he was there. And Tyrion didn't noticed anything, because whatever Garlan was doing above the table, was concealed from Tyrion by the table's top.

And everything happened very fast, Joffrey said to Tyrion, that Tyrion can get up, and Garlan was already there, and gave him a hand. Why was he standing there? Unless he can predict future, there was no way for him to know, that Tyrion will need help to get up. Thus, Garlan was standing there, to drop poison into Joffrey's wine, and it just happened so, that when he did it, Tyrion was getting up, and needed help, so Garlan gave him a hand.

Not bad. But earlier, just before Tyrion gets doused with wine, "he suddenly felt Ser Garlan's hand on his sleeve." Since there is no reason to think Garlan is on his feet at this moment, it isn't unthinkable that Garlan can still extend a hand to Tyrion from a sitting position.

That being said, however, it is also quite probable that both Garlan and Leonette were on their feet as the wine was coming down, to avoid getting splashed, and this would not be observed by Tyrion because of the wine stinging his eyes. But that would mean Garlan has not just risen and backed away a bit, but either guesses correctly exactly where Joff will place the chalice and gets there first or continues to stand the whole time Joff and Tyrion are going at it, only to make a beeline to Sansa's place as soon as the chalice is set down and then in one smooth motion manages to drop the poison in and extend a hand down to Tyrion. Quite the feat. And remember, this is at a time when literally all eyes in the room are focused directly on this little drama.

The other problem here is that if Lady Olenna has already given Garlan the poison, then she would have to know ahead of time that Joffrey is going to leave the chalice here, and I don't see any reason to conclude that Lady O can predict their future either. So that means in addition to helping Tyrion and dropping the poison in the few seconds available to him, he also has to first get the poison from his grandmother. This is quite a lot of tricky sleight-of-hand for such an important, and already risky, endeavor -- something they could in no possible way have rehearsed because the opportunity to poison the wine in this way has only emerged in the last few seconds.

The only other possibility here is that Garlan helps Tyrion to his feet and then continues to stand there for however many seconds it takes to reach over Sansa to the chalice. This is still quite a long stretch, and yet nobody in the room, at the table or servants behind the table happen to see this. Highly unlikely, and we have the added discrepancy that Tyrion never notices either Garlan or Leonette returning to their seats even though the stinging is long gone by now.

So, no, from the weight of the evidence, the only likely conclusion is that everyone remained at their places, that Garlan was able to reach Tyrion from his seat across Leonette's lap, but that he did not rise to his feet and walk past Joffrey, past Margaery, to stand right behind Sansa the whole time.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a pretty bad case.

The idea that the chalice was effectively in Sansa's lap is clearly hyperbole. It was as close to her as it was to Garlan/Leonette. And the idea never was that Garlan did not have to lean in to put the Strangler into the chalice - the idea is that he did that at a moment when nobody else was when nobody paid the chalice or him any mind: when Joff was cutting the wedding pie.

He could have leaned to kiss/talk to his wife, stretching out an arm to put the poison into the chalice, he could have stood up to straighten his doublet or getting a better look, increasing his reach that way.

The narrator never tells where exactly Joff put the chalice when he left it. All that's clear is that Tyrion had to climb on his chair again to reach the thing. That makes it clear it must have been close to his own seat, but not necessarily exactly where Tyrion was sitting.

The entire point of the scene as described is that Tyrion didn't notice anything when the wine was poisoned - because whoever did it moved in such a way as to be not noticed by either him or Sansa.

But that doesn't allow us to conclude there was no poisoner. In any case, though, Leonette could work just as well as Garlan - what makes Garlan a very likely candidate in my opinion is his continuous - and, if he is the poisoner, rather insidious - praise of Tyrion. He congratulates him for his role during the Blackwater, he criticizes Joffrey for emptying the chalice on Tyrion, etc. - all that very effectively ensured that Tyrion would never suspect Garlan Tyrell or Leonette Fossoway.

And that was no unimportant. Depending on the way events unfolded after Joff's death - plan A was to make it an accident, plan B already was to frame Tyrion. The framing here had to work in such a manner that Tyrion would not be able to react by trying to blame the Tyrells - that nobody would ever think to suspect Garlan and his wife despite their proximity to the chalice. And that was ensured by making Garlan Tyrion's only friend and defender at court.

Yes, I said that part was hyperbole, but Tyrion wouldn't have even thought that if the chalice was closer to anyone but Sansa. So we have more than just a lean here. Garlan literally has to go from a standing position with his arm at his side, stretch across two full place settings at a formal table -- a distance of at least four feet -- and then back to his sides all in the split second when the sword comes down and before the sight of the rising pigeons starts pulling eyeballs in every direction. There is simply no way he can be leaning in to kiss his wife (which would be an extremely odd thing to do at this particular moment anyway) or adjusting his doublet and then stretch his arm across Leonette's place, across Tyrion's place and all the way to Sansa, particularly without being seen by either Tyrion and Sansa who are standing right there.

Try this yourself, right now. Stand up and see how far you would have to lean in order to reach a point that is three feet in the air to either your left or your right. You might be able to reach past the person sitting directly next to you, but beyond that? No amount of "leaning" is going to get you there. Simply cannot happen, unless Garlan is a secret Elastic Man.

Yes, the narrator, through Tyrion, does tell us where the chalice was: right in front of Sansa, who is sitting three places away from Garlan. Even if it was closer to Tyrion's side, this is still too far for Garlan to reach, as I've shown above.

Actually, the entire point of the scene was to show that the wine was not poisoned at all. But I promised myself not to go off on that tangent, just to prove that Garlan could not have done it.

Leonette is "dainty", according to Sansa. Also very unlikely that she would be able to reach past Tyrion to the lip of a three-foot chalice. But in any event, Leonette is not Garlan.

Who cares what Tyrion suspects or who he accuses? 1000 people saw him give the wine to Joffrey after he and Joff got into a tussle. You're also forgetting that Garlan is an anointed knight who trains against three or more foes at a time and wades into the thickest part of battle. Knights do not use poison -- the weapon of women, cravens and eunuchs -- even if their grandmothers tell them to, particularly if it means becoming a kingslayer by killing a skinny 14yo boy who has virtually zero skill at arms. So the only way you could believe this is to assume that Garlan is not a true knight but a duplicitous coward, and the fact is there is zero text that even hints that this is the case.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, I said that part was hyperbole, but Tyrion wouldn't have even thought that if the chalice was closer to anyone but Sansa.

Why not? People are not objective observers. Tyrion thinks about possible suspects in the murder case and he can only think of Sansa. The fact that Sansa was also rather close to the chalice means she also had the opportunity to poison it - Sansa had both a pretty good motive and the opportunity.

You also have to note that Tyrion didn't see Sansa poisoning the wine despite him sitting directly next to her - and he still doesn't think it is unlikely that she did poison the wine. If he can think that's possible - likely, even - then we can certainly think it is likely Garlan actually did the deed.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So we have more than just a lean here. Garlan literally has to go from a standing position with his arm at his side, stretch across two full place settings at a formal table -- a distance of at least four feet -- and then back to his sides all in the split second when the sword comes down and before the sight of the rising pigeons starts pulling eyeballs in every direction. There is simply no way he can be leaning in to kiss his wife (which would be an extremely odd thing to do at this particular moment anyway) or adjusting his doublet and then stretch his arm across Leonette's place, across Tyrion's place and all the way to Sansa, particularly without being seen by either Tyrion and Sansa who are standing right there.

Why shouldn't he be able to do any of that? Nobody suspects him of foul play, he doesn't have to disguise what he is doing aside from the quick movement of actually putting the poison into the chalice. He could even have walked over to the chalice to talk to whoever sat next to Sansa.

I never imagined Garlan sat on his chair and poisoned the wine that way. It was always clear that whoever did it must have actually gone to the thing.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Try this yourself, right now. Stand up and see how far you would have to lean in order to reach a point that is three feet in the air to either your left or your right. You might be able to reach past the person sitting directly next to you, but beyond that? No amount of "leaning" is going to get you there. Simply cannot happen, unless Garlan is a secret Elastic Man.

You overplay the leaning part. Sure, one assumes that this being noble people they are not exactly sitting atop each other on the dais. But it must also be very loud in the throne considering the music, the singing, the talking, etc. - meaning that Garlan may mainly lean in to his wife and Tyrion to understand their conversation and to enable them to understand what he is saying. It might also be simple courtesy to ensure that they don't distract or annoy other people with their private talk. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, the narrator, through Tyrion, does tell us where the chalice was: right in front of Sansa, who is sitting three places away from Garlan. Even if it was closer to Tyrion's side, this is still too far for Garlan to reach, as I've shown above.

You have basically shown nothing. You tried to show something by interpreting distances and behavior the way you want. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Actually, the entire point of the scene was to show that the wine was not poisoned at all. But I promised myself not to go off on that tangent, just to prove that Garlan could not have done it.

The wine was poisoned with the Strangler. Pycelle confirms that it was the Strangler and we see the remnants of dissolving substance in the wine Tyrion spills - and we know that Littlefinger tells us who was involved and what poison was used and George R. R. Martin himself did have Olenna Tyrell poison the wine in the dreadful TV show. Even if the latter wasn't the case - there is no reason to believe that the Strangler could be a poison that could be administered via the pie - it is a poison that is dissolved in fluid and administered in this fashion. After all, if that were the case then people would have suspected that perhaps the pie rather than the wine was poisoned, and somebody would have tested the remains.

Instead it is quite clear that the wine must have been poisoned after it is clear how exactly Joffrey died.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Leonette is "dainty", according to Sansa. Also very unlikely that she would be able to reach past Tyrion to the lip of a three-foot chalice. But in any event, Leonette is not Garlan.

Well, I still think it was Garlan, but it could have been Leonette, too. It could also have been Left or Right considering that they could have just walked behind the people on the dais. Those bodyguards likely can walk around a lot without causing that much attention. The only candidate that's rather unlikely is Olenna simply because of her small size and the height of the chalice.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Who cares what Tyrion suspects or who he accuses? 1000 people saw him give the wine to Joffrey after he and Joff got into a tussle. You're also forgetting that Garlan is an anointed knight who trains against three or more foes at a time and wades into the thickest part of battle. Knights do not use poison -- the weapon of women, cravens and eunuchs -- even if their grandmothers tell them to, particularly if it means becoming a kingslayer by killing a skinny 14yo boy who has virtually zero skill at arms. So the only way you could believe this is to assume that Garlan is not a true knight but a duplicitous coward, and the fact is there is zero text that even hints that this is the case.

Who cares what the text does not hint at? We only see  - for the most part, at least - the Tyrells as they want to present themselves, not necessarily as they are. George rather deliberately decided to not give us their POVs. Garlan can be both a great and anointed knight and a poisoner. That's not mutually exclusive. Robert Baratheon was an anointed knight, too, and he condoned the poisoning of Daenerys Targaryen - Daeron the Daring was anointed knight, too, Unwin Peake, the other Caltrops, the men involved in the attempted poisoning of Aegon III and Queen Daenaera, etc. 

And wouldn't Garlan Tyrell be just another hand puppet of his grandmother in your setting? Wouldn't he do his grandma's bidding just as meekly as Mace supposedly obeys Olenna? What he wanted to do wouldn't matter all that much then, would it?

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why not? People are not objective observers. Tyrion thinks about possible suspects in the murder case and he can only think of Sansa. The fact that Sansa was also rather close to the chalice means she also had the opportunity to poison it - Sansa had both a pretty good motive and the opportunity.

You also have to note that Tyrion didn't see Sansa poisoning the wine despite him sitting directly next to her - and he still doesn't think it is unlikely that she did poison the wine. If he can think that's possible - likely, even - then we can certainly think it is likely Garlan actually did the deed.

Why shouldn't he be able to do any of that? Nobody suspects him of foul play, he doesn't have to disguise what he is doing aside from the quick movement of actually putting the poison into the chalice. He could even have walked over to the chalice to talk to whoever sat next to Sansa.

I never imagined Garlan sat on his chair and poisoned the wine that way. It was always clear that whoever did it must have actually gone to the thing.

You overplay the leaning part. Sure, one assumes that this being noble people they are not exactly sitting atop each other on the dais. But it must also be very loud in the throne considering the music, the singing, the talking, etc. - meaning that Garlan may mainly lean in to his wife and Tyrion to understand their conversation and to enable them to understand what he is saying. It might also be simple courtesy to ensure that they don't distract or annoy other people with their private talk. 

You have basically shown nothing. You tried to show something by interpreting distances and behavior the way you want. 

The wine was poisoned with the Strangler. Pycelle confirms that it was the Strangler and we see the remnants of dissolving substance in the wine Tyrion spills - and we know that Littlefinger tells us who was involved and what poison was used and George R. R. Martin himself did have Olenna Tyrell poison the wine in the dreadful TV show. Even if the latter wasn't the case - there is no reason to believe that the Strangler could be a poison that could be administered via the pie - it is a poison that is dissolved in fluid and administered in this fashion. After all, if that were the case then people would have suspected that perhaps the pie rather than the wine was poisoned, and somebody would have tested the remains.

Instead it is quite clear that the wine must have been poisoned after it is clear how exactly Joffrey died.

Well, I still think it was Garlan, but it could have been Leonette, too. It could also have been Left or Right considering that they could have just walked behind the people on the dais. Those bodyguards likely can walk around a lot without causing that much attention. The only candidate that's rather unlikely is Olenna simply because of her small size and the height of the chalice.

Who cares what the text does not hint at? We only see  - for the most part, at least - the Tyrells as they want to present themselves, not necessarily as they are. George rather deliberately decided to not give us their POVs. Garlan can be both a great and anointed knight and a poisoner. That's not mutually exclusive. Robert Baratheon was an anointed knight, too, and he condoned the poisoning of Daenerys Targaryen - Daeron the Daring was anointed knight, too, Unwin Peake, the other Caltrops, the men involved in the attempted poisoning of Aegon III and Queen Daenaera, etc. 

And wouldn't Garlan Tyrell be just another hand puppet of his grandmother in your setting? Wouldn't he do his grandma's bidding just as meekly as Mace supposedly obeys Olenna? What he wanted to do wouldn't matter all that much then, would it?

Sansa is rather small too. If it was anywhere near an arm's reach for Sansa, then it is still out of reach for Garlan, even with a long lean. Tyrion did not see anyone poisoning the wine, but he did see the chalice right in front of Sansa. If the chalice had been within reach of Garlan, then he would consider him as the prime suspect. He doesn't, because the chalice was closest to Sansa, three places away from Garlan.

Tyrion and Joffrey having their spat with Margaery right there, and Garlan, for some inexplicable reason and unnoticed by literally everyone in the room, takes this moment to walk through the confrontation and squeeze in next to Sansa? Because there is something more important he needs to talk about than the king and the MoC creating this spectacle in front of the entire court? Sorry, no, talk about making things up to support head canon. Garlan did not go anywhere, or else somebody would have wondered afterward what on earth he was doing. Likewise, nobody else had "actually gone to the thing" or Sansa, at least, surely would have noticed it.

I am 6' 2" and the distance from my armpit to the tip of my index finger is 30 inches. Now you have Garlan, who has never been described as an unusually tall or large man, with just a slight lean, reaching all the way past Leonette, past Tyrion, to the lip of the chalice that is three feet above the table. How on earth do you squeeze both of these place settings into a space less then three feet wide? Sorry Varys, what you are describing is simply not possible, let alone the sheer ludicrousness of Garlan choosing this very moment to suddenly kiss his wife while at the same time extending his six-foot-long arm directly in front of Tyrion's face to the chalice. Face the facts: Garlan could not have done it.

Like I said, my intent was not to get into the whole pie vs. wine thing again, but I guess it's inevitable. The poison was definitely the strangler, but every actual fact in the books points to the pie, not the wine. Even if you do hold to the fiction that it can only dissolve in wine, just read the text: Joffrey takes a chug of wine just a few seconds before he starts choking, in a virtual identical time-frame as Cressen, then tries to take one more and barfs the contents of his mouth back into the chalice. This is the only way to explain why Joff could take multiple huge chugs of wine that is supposedly so thoroughly poisoned that it has turned "deep purple" and yet show absolutely no reaction until after he eats the pie some 20-25 seconds later.

There is no reason to think that a crystal that dissolves near instantly in wine would not dissolve partially in hot, moist pie. Think of salt, sugar or countless other soluble crystals. And this also accounts for the fact that the pie is "a bit dry, though. Needs washing down."

Everybody thinks Tyrion is the poisoner as well, but we know that is not true. Joffrey was drinking wine when he started choking, so it is natural for everyone to think it was the wine. And FYI, some people do suspect it was not the wine; Jaime, for one.

I would rule Leonette out if I believed it was the wine. She's still too small and would be able to reach past Tyrion without being seen. Left and Right are hulking brutes; unlikely that they would not be drawing eyeballs to their presence or that Sansa would not notice them leaning over her shoulder into the chalice. Remember, once the pigeons are in flight, all eyes start tracing every which way in the room, so there is no way Sansa could fail to notice a giant of a man leaning over her shoulder. Nor would Tyrion see that Lady Olenna is there, leaning on her cane, but remain oblivious to the two giants behind her. They're pretty hard to miss.

I dunno, Varys, It seems to me that you care quite a lot about what the text does not hint at. Left and Right looming over Sansa, for one. Garlan kissing and leaning and stretching his way to the chalice . . .

The text does not only "not hint at" this true nature of Garlan, it thoroughly debunks it. Cowardly, craven duplicitous knights do not stride into the thick of battle and fight off hundreds of foes, no matter how well armored they are. They also do not choose to spar against three or four opponents at a time, nor do they gain reputations as formidable swordsman capable of defeating other formidable knights, like Ser Morrigen, in single combat. There comes a time to simply accept the facts as they are: Garlan is exactly the noble, honorable and chivalrous knight he appears to be. The whole rest of the world, including his slain enemies, are not helping Garlan carry out a ruse.

Garlan is not Mace. Garlan is capable, competent and highly skilled at arms and at court. Every word out of Garlan's mouth and every action he has taken confirms this, while every word and every action coming from Mace confirms that he is a weak-willed, imbecilic tool of his mother. Garlan would not use poison to slay his boy king even if his grandmother ordered him to.

 

 

 

[Prince of the North]

It's true that Garlan wasn't the poisoner at the Purple Wedding.  It was Olenna Tyrell herself.  The author, who created the scene and explains exactly why in the interview excerpt below, says so himself.  

Quote

In an upcoming Rolling Stone interview with George R.R. Martin, the writer behind the popular Game of Thrones novels offers the following comments during a discussion of whether his characters’ deeds can be redeemed: 

Martin: Who kills Joffrey? 

Rolling Stone: That killing apparently happens early in this fourth season. The Song of Ice and Fire books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey. 

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because I think that’s an interesting question of redemption. That’s more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She certainly had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Everything she’d heard about him, he was wildly unstable, and he was about to marry her beloved granddaughter. The Queen of Thorns had studied Joffrey well enough that she knew that at some point he would get bored with Margaery, and Margaery would be maltreated, the same way that Sansa had been. Whereas if she removed him then her granddaughter might still get the crown but without all of the danger. So is that a case where the end justifies the means? I don’t know. That’s what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate. 

 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa is rather small too. If it was anywhere near an arm's reach for Sansa, then it is still out of reach for Garlan, even with a long lean. Tyrion did not see anyone poisoning the wine, but he did see the chalice right in front of Sansa. If the chalice had been within reach of Garlan, then he would consider him as the prime suspect. He doesn't, because the chalice was closest to Sansa, three places away from Garlan.

No, because Tyrion is a pretty thoughtful person. He suspects people of poisoning Joffrey who have, in his opinion, a motive, not just basically random people who are sucking up to him and who also technically have the opportunity but no motive as far as he know.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tyrion and Joffrey having their spat with Margaery right there, and Garlan, for some inexplicable reason and unnoticed by literally everyone in the room, takes this moment to walk through the confrontation and squeeze in next to Sansa? Because there is something more important he needs to talk about than the king and the MoC creating this spectacle in front of the entire court? Sorry, no, talk about making things up to support head canon. Garlan did not go anywhere, or else somebody would have wondered afterward what on earth he was doing. Likewise, nobody else had "actually gone to the thing" or Sansa, at least, surely would have noticed it.

Where do you get it that nobody saw Garlan (or Left, Right, Leonette, etc.) walk around? All we know is that Tyrion and Sansa didn't notice/remember that this happened. This is not the same as nobody seeing it. Many Tyrells and their cronies may have seen them - and chose to never tell anyone for a very good reason. And you do know that people are roaring out loud when the pie is cut, right? Meaning that there was a lot of commotion there, the musicians were playing again, and then the servant shows up with the pie - meaning people were walking around on the dais.

By the way - alternatively it could have been Olenna herself when she was standing there after Tyrion's wine bath. The chalice lay on the ground, so technically the Strangler could have been put at its bottom. After Tyrion filled the wine three quarters and Joff took his first sip the poison may not have yet reached the wine in the upper quarter. We don't know how quickly it dissolves and how long how it is completely intermixed with such a large quantity of wine.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I am 6' 2" and the distance from my armpit to the tip of my index finger is 30 inches. Now you have Garlan, who has never been described as an unusually tall or large man, with just a slight lean, reaching all the way past Leonette, past Tyrion, to the lip of the chalice that is three feet above the table. How on earth do you squeeze both of these place settings into a space less then three feet wide? Sorry Varys, what you are describing is simply not possible, let alone the sheer ludicrousness of Garlan choosing this very moment to suddenly kiss his wife while at the same time extending his six-foot-long arm directly in front of Tyrion's face to the chalice. Face the facts: Garlan could not have done it.

I don't have to explain this - I just say that I find it possible and likely that Garlan could have pulled that off. And Garlan leans over during Galyeon's song about Stannis, meaning he had to be louder than the song and the music to be heard.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Like I said, my intent was not to get into the whole pie vs. wine thing again, but I guess it's inevitable. The poison was definitely the strangler, but every actual fact in the books points to the pie, not the wine. Even if you do hold to the fiction that it can only dissolve in wine, just read the text: Joffrey takes a chug of wine just a few seconds before he starts choking, in a virtual identical time-frame as Cressen, then tries to take one more and barfs the contents of his mouth back into the chalice. This is the only way to explain why Joff could take multiple huge chugs of wine that is supposedly so thoroughly poisoned that it has turned "deep purple" and yet show absolutely no reaction until after he eats the pie some 20-25 seconds later.

No fact in and outside of the books points to the pie. Everything points to the wine.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I would rule Leonette out if I believed it was the wine. She's still too small and would be able to reach past Tyrion without being seen. Left and Right are hulking brutes; unlikely that they would not be drawing eyeballs to their presence or that Sansa would not notice them leaning over her shoulder into the chalice. Remember, once the pigeons are in flight, all eyes start tracing every which way in the room, so there is no way Sansa could fail to notice a giant of a man leaning over her shoulder. Nor would Tyrion see that Lady Olenna is there, leaning on her cane, but remain oblivious to the two giants behind her. They're pretty hard to miss.

Why should Tyrion or anyone care about servants and guardsmen? 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I dunno, Varys, It seems to me that you care quite a lot about what the text does not hint at. Left and Right looming over Sansa, for one. Garlan kissing and leaning and stretching his way to the chalice . . .

I just gave possible scenario, I didn't say I think it must have happened that way.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The text does not only "not hint at" this true nature of Garlan, it thoroughly debunks it. Cowardly, craven duplicitous knights do not stride into the thick of battle and fight off hundreds of foes, no matter how well armored they are. They also do not choose to spar against three or four opponents at a time, nor do they gain reputations as formidable swordsman capable of defeating other formidable knights, like Ser Morrigen, in single combat. There comes a time to simply accept the facts as they are: Garlan is exactly the noble, honorable and chivalrous knight he appears to be. The whole rest of the world, including his slain enemies, are not helping Garlan carry out a ruse.

Garlan Tyrell agreed to pretend to be Renly Baratheon. He is capable of deception. And he is rather well-built and tall to be able to wear Renly's armor - who was smaller and less strong than Robert, but still more powerfully built than Loras.

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Garlan is not Mace. Garlan is capable, competent and highly skilled at arms and at court. Every word out of Garlan's mouth and every action he has taken confirms this, while every word and every action coming from Mace confirms that he is a weak-willed, imbecilic tool of his mother. Garlan would not use poison to slay his boy king even if his grandmother ordered him to.

We just get platitudes from Garlan. We don't know the man. 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

It's true that Garlan wasn't the poisoner at the Purple Wedding.  It was Olenna Tyrell herself.  The author, who created the scene and explains exactly why in the interview excerpt below, says so himself.

The reason why we think that Garlan is a better candidate for the actual poisoning - the putting into the chalice - is the fact that Olenna is so small (hardly taller than Tyrion) and the chalice is described as being three feet tall. Being a wedding give of Mace Tyrell Olenna would have known this thing beforehand - her putting the poison into the chalice while it sat on the table near Tyrion where Joff put it before he went to cut the pie basically means she would have to climb the table and/or toss the Strangler into the chalice.

This is hardly feasible - thus the idea that Garlan was the one doing the deed. Alternatively I can see that Left or Right did it for Olenna or that Olenna herself did it before the chalice was put on the table (with Joff not being poisoned then because the poison had not yet (completely) dissolved.

If George wants Olenna to have done it personally while it was on the table during the pie cutting then he has a logistical problem of his own making. Could be he didn't think of Olenna's size and the size of the chalice. But could also be he wants us to suspect Garlan.

It is quite clear that Olenna is the one who is behind the poisoning, but not necessary the one behind the actual deed. This is why George includes the following caveat (bold) in the interview you quoted:

Quote

In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

At this point our pieces definitely implicate Olenna as the poisoner. That's what Littlefinger implies, and it is what Sansa concludes. But Littlefinger wasn't there, and Sansa didn't see it happening. Littlefinger may not have known about the size of the chalice, and Sansa never thinks about the size of the thing in comparison to Olenna's or how she may have actually gotten the poison into the chalice.

Thus my guess here is that we are going to get another interesting layer to this plot when Garlan Tyrell finally returns to the plot. Just as we are likely to finally learn in future books whether Littlefinger was the one behind Ned's execution (feeding Joff the idea to do it and instructing Slynt what to do), and who exactly was the man behind Mandon Moore's attempt on Tyrion (likely also Littlefinger).

George already has told us - in another interview - that he is going to reveal more about Varys' involvement in the Shae-Tywin murder situation - meaning that the situation there is likely going to be somewhat more complex than it appears right now.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I'm with you @John Suburbs & if I'm not mistaken we discussed this briefly before. 

The evidence we have in the text offers no means for Garlan to have done it. Let alone, like you state, that this is not something a typical Knight would do. 

@Lord Varys a million things could have happened but we don't have anything to suggest they did. Maybe Garlan leaned in to kiss his wife, maybe he adjusted his doublet (both things that IMO still don't offer him the oppurtunity to poison the wine) & maybe Olenna did a double backflip onto the table & put the poison in the wine herself. Why not? The text doesn't say she didn't. 

In all seriousness George gives us the clues to figure it out & what he has presented to us is very clearly meant to show (IMO) that no one had the oppurtunity to poison the wine because it wasn't the wine that was poisoned. 

The post @Prince of the North shared states Olenna is the poisoner. Now this could mean she came up with the plot to poison Joff but someone else did the deed. I personally find it ironic that George never mentions the wine though. 

From my very first read it I thought it was the pie & it wasn't until coming here that I even knew this was debated or that readers believed it to be the wine. That doesn't mean I'm right & others are wrong but with what we have this far I just don't see how it couldn't have been the pie. 

[Megorova]

@John Suburbs

If it was not Garlan, then it was Margaery.

Garlan was sitting far from Olenna, while Margaery was sitting near her grandmother. And Olenna had the poison. It was easier for her to pass it to Marge, than to Garlan.

Also, what's the point of giving the poison to Garlan, if there was no way for anyone to know, that there will be a situation, when Joffrey will leave his seat, and will go with his wine-cup to Tyrion's seat? It makes more sense for the poisoner to be someone near Joffrey, someone, who will have many many opportunities to slip the poison into Joffrey's food or wine. And who else had more opportunities like that, than Margaery, who was sitting next to Joffrey?

Also, what's the point for Olenna to reveal her plan to Garlan, if it was unlikely, that at any point of that wedding feast, Joffrey's chalise will end up anywhere near Garlan? It's not like Olenna informed all of Tyrells about her plan to kill Joffrey, just in case, if Joffrey's chalice somehow will end up near one of them, and they will have an opportunity to slip the poison into it. Thus, the most logical possibility, is that the only two people, that knew about the plan, were those two, for whom Joffrey's death was the most beneficial. And that's Olenna and Margaery. (And Littlefinger)

I was re-reading that chapter, and noticed two small but important details.

1. Margaery comes to where Joffrey is, with his chalice, near Tyrion's group, and Olenna then gives a command (The Rains of Castamere). Margaery mentions a new toast, for which Joffrey will need to refill his chalice. And she needed for his cup to have a wine in it, for her to put a poison in there. That's why she mentioned that toast.

Quote

“It didn’t spill,” said Joffrey, too graceless to take the retreat Tyrion offered him. “And I wasn’t serving you, either.”

Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.”

“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.”

“Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well,” said Margaery. “Your Grace, please.”

“I have no wine,” Joffrey declared. “How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won’t joust you’ll be my cupbearer.”

“I would be most honored.”

“It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. “You can get up now, Uncle.”

His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him a hand. Joffrey laughed, and Cersei as well. Then others. He could not see who, but he heard them.

“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”

“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”

The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it.

Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair.

Tyrion refills chalice. Joffrey drinks a bit, and places his cup on the table. He gives permission to Tyrion to get up. Garlan gave him a hand. Joffrey and others are laughing. Tywin calls Joffrey to cut the pie. Joffrey took Margaery by the hand, they go to cut the pie. Tyrion sits back into his chair. Then this, after the poisoning:

Quote

But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother’s arms as the old lady said, “Be brave, be brave.” Most of the musicians had fled, but one last flutist in the gallery was blowing a dirge. In the rear of the throne room scuffling had broken out around the doors, and the guests were trampling on each other. Ser Addam’s gold cloaks moved in to restore order.

2. The poison was in a hard/solid form, disguised as a gemstone. It needed time to dissolve in the wine. So, it looks like Margaery had slipped the stone into Joffrey's wine, while Garlan was helping Tyrion to stand up, and everyone else was looking at that, and laughing. So, Margaery used this opportunity, and slipped the poison into wine, and then Joffrey took her hand, and they went to cut the pie. She knew, that by the time, that they will return to Joffrey's chalice, the stone in it will already dissolve, and the wine will be poisoned.

Before and after the moment of poisoning, three same elements were mentioned - Olenna, Margaery, Addam. GRRM could have wrote "gold cloaks moved in to restore order", but he specifically wrote "Ser Addam’s gold cloaks moved in to restore order". Those three elements are like opening and closing "" of the poisoning.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The evidence we have in the text offers no means for Garlan to have done it. Let alone, like you state, that this is not something a typical Knight would do. 

Do you think poisoning your grandson-in-law is something 'the typical grandmother' would do?

Garlan Tyrell is no typical knight. And there are a lot of men in this series who like to use poison to kill people, and a lot of them are knights. The idea that knightly vows prevent you from becoming a poisoner is ridiculous.

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Lord Varys a million things could have happened but we don't have anything to suggest they did. Maybe Garlan leaned in to kiss his wife, maybe he adjusted his doublet (both things that IMO still don't offer him the oppurtunity to poison the wine) & maybe Olenna did a double backflip onto the table & put the poison in the wine herself. Why not? The text doesn't say she didn't.

The text makes it clear that a Tyrell put the poison into the chalice. That's clear, anything else is pretty much nonsense. We don't know how it was done, but it was done. The reason I and others suggest Garlan as an alternative to Olenna is the fact that she would have physical difficulties doing it - and would be much more likely to draw attention to herself if she tried. You yourself make that clear with your back flip joke. Garlan, on the other hand, was very close to Tyrion. He had a much better opportunity.

I mean, technically he could have stood up, walked over to the chalice, examined it to put in the Strangler. Tyrion clearly doesn't give a damn about the chalice or Garlan Tyrell. He does not watch him, which is why we don't know what Garlan actually did. We also don't know what Olenna did until she started to cry out when Joff started choking. But Garlan is physically more capable of putting in the poison which makes him a more likely candidate.

But as I said - Left or Right could have done the job, too.

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In all seriousness George gives us the clues to figure it out & what he has presented to us is very clearly meant to show (IMO) that no one had the oppurtunity to poison the wine because it wasn't the wine that was poisoned.

George wrote the show episode where Olenna poisoned the wine. If he had wanted to poison the pie he would have poisoned the pie.

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The post @Prince of the North shared states Olenna is the poisoner. Now this could mean she came up with the plot to poison Joff but someone else did the deed. I personally find it ironic that George never mentions the wine though. 

No, actually it states that the careful reader of ASoS can conclude that Olenna Tyrell is the poisoner. That's not confirmation that she did the deed, it is just confirmation that this is an explanation that can be drawn from the text. George didn't say Olenna poisoned Joffrey, he said at this point people have pretty good reason to believe that Olenna poisoned Joffrey. That's a difference.

Compare it to Jon Arryn's death - before ASoS a lot of people had pretty good reason to believe Cersei or the Lannisters were behind the deed. That this wasn't the case was only confirmed in ASoS.

The sources George gives us for the poisoning is, at this point, only Littlefinger - who wasn't there.

It is quite clear that Olenna was behind the attempt, of course. That's not only confirmed by Littlefinger but also by Olenna's own 'a pity' when Sansa confirms Joffrey's character - that's the moment when she decides that Joff had to die. She was not trusting the rumors Littlefinger had spread at Highgarden.

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

From my very first read it I thought it was the pie & it wasn't until coming here that I even knew this was debated or that readers believed it to be the wine. That doesn't mean I'm right & others are wrong but with what we have this far I just don't see how it couldn't have been the pie. 

It is pretty obvious that it wasn't the pie.

I mean, if an entire pie was poisoned then whoever did that would have tried to poison half or more of the court. The idea that anyone could put the Strangler into a single slice of poison and dissolve it while it was delivered to table is ridiculous. And if it had been baked into the pie it would have affected the entire pie if it actually worked that way.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

@John Suburbs

If it was not Garlan, then it was Margaery.

Garlan was sitting far from Olenna, while Margaery was sitting near her grandmother. And Olenna had the poison. It was easier for her to pass it to Marge, than to Garlan.

Olenna is at the table close to Tyrion and to Garlan when Joff bathes Tyrion in wine. That's the point where she could have given Garlan the Strangler. Margaery is too conspicuous. And she never actually held the chalice, especially not after the refill. And if the Strangler was already in the chalice when Tyrion refilled it (and Joff didn't die when he first drank from it because it took some time to dissolve intermix with all the wine) then Olenna herself could have put the poison in the wine, she would not need Margaery for that. And while they were cutting the pie Margaery had no opportunity, nor did she afterwards when Joff took it and drank.

[Castellan]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

No, actually it states that the careful reader of ASoS can conclude that Olenna Tyrell is the poisoner. That's not confirmation that she did the deed, it is just confirmation that this is an explanation that can be drawn from the text. George didn't say Olenna poisoned Joffrey, he said at this point people have pretty good reason to believe that Olenna poisoned Joffrey. That's a difference.

....

Compare it to Jon Arryn's death - before ASoS a lot of people had pretty good reason to believe Cersei or the Lannisters were behind the deed. That this wasn't the case was only confirmed in ASoS.

...

The sources George gives us for the poisoning is, at this point, only Littlefinger - who wasn't there.

 

I agree with these points, only adding that Littlefinger is also a manipulator and liar so no reason whatever to believe him.

However, I have always though Margaery did it. She is the one who can absolutely be expected to be seated next to Joffrey. She can expect him to pass the her the Chalice. She can drink from it as her alibi - 'why would I poison something I could drink from? And why would anyone else in my family poison it when I would be in danger?' I agree Joffrey's unexpected lurch over to Tyrion and emptying the wine creates problems for identifying exactly what happened (which is probably GRRMs intent) but my money's on Margaery. 

I mainly think it because of this, though, and people may not read it like me, but it struck me the first time I read it:

The High Septon knelt beside him [Joffrey]. "Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly," he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw."

 

What Alerie says is very odd. Why would she tell Margaery it was "naught to do with her" and "He choked. We all saw." Talk about arousing suspicion where there was none! I think Alerie, being her mother, recognises her sobs as guilty sobs, the way she may have cried when in trouble as a child (she does start sobbing at the point at which the High Septon appears and mentions judgement).Or else she has muttered something that Alerie has heard, eg 'forgive me'. Margaery may have agreed to kill him but the reality was ghastly and she might be expected to be horrified, at least a bit, at what she has done. Or else Alerie is just a very ham-fisted accomplice.

 

These were renewed sobs on Margaery's part. She had earlier been sobbing in Olenna's arms:

Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother's arms as the old lady said, "Be brave, be brave." Most of the musicians had fled, but one last flutist in the gallery was blowing a dirge. In the rear of the throne room scuffling had broken out around the doors, and the guests were trampling on each other. Ser Addam's gold cloaks moved in to restore order. Guests were rushing headlong out into the night, some weeping, some stumbling and retching, others white with fear. It occurred to Tyrion belatedly that it might be wise to leave himself.

Now 'be brave. be brave' is a more subtle way of reassuring Margaery, if we assume Olenna & Margaery are involved. Supposed to be taken as 'you have lost your husband on your wedding day, be brave' but easily read as 'it will work out, be brave, don't fall down on us now'.

I also think that it's true that Garlan is less likely because he is honorable, as well as because he is further from the Chalice and couldn't anticipate Joffrey's move. It's true he disapproves of Joffrey and respects Tyrion but  I think if he planned to drop poison in Joffrey's chalice he would have hidden this - not expressed his disapproval of Joffrey by telling him that pouring wine on Tyrion was 'ill done' and helping Tyrion up.

 

I think George is using the 'poison is a woman's weapon' idea and that this was Olenna and Margaery. 

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And she never actually held the chalice, especially not after the refill.

Why would she need to hold it in her hands? She was just standing near the table, Joffrey placed his chalice on the table, and when Tywin called Joffrey, and Joffrey turned away from his wine, Margaery just dropped the stone into wine. No need to even touch the cup.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if the Strangler was already in the chalice when Tyrion refilled it (and Joff didn't die when he first drank from it because it took some time to dissolve intermix with all the wine) then Olenna herself could have put the poison in the wine, she would not need Margaery for that. And while they were cutting the pie Margaery had no opportunity, nor did she afterwards when Joff took it and drank.

Joffrey poured wine on Tyrion and dropped chalice on the floor. Tyrion picked it up, and refilled it. Joffrey drunk a bit, and placed it on the table.

Joffrey said to Tyrion, that he can get up. Then Tywin called Joffrey to cut the pie. So, either this is the moment, when Margaery droped the gemstone into his cup, while Joffrey turned away from his cup, and was listening to what Tywin was saying, or Marge droped the poison, when everyone was looking at how Tyrion was trying to get up, and were laughing. First option seems more likely - she droped the poison into cup, prior they went to cut the pie. So, while they were cutting the pie, that gemstone was dissolving, and no one saw it, because no one was standing near that cup. Tyrion was sitting at one side of the table, and the cup was standing on the further side. Then Joffrey and Margaery returned, to where the cup was standing, and he drunk from it again, this time it was with the poison. Probably, after they have cut the pie, Marge said to him something like, 'Ser Addam wants to make a toast, so let's go back to our place, where is your chalice', and he went back to take it.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

I agree with these points, only adding that Littlefinger is also a manipulator and liar so no reason whatever to believe him.

The fact that we can believe that he believes Olenna poisoned Joffrey is the fact that he knows Olenna touched and took something from Sansa's hairnet - a hairnet he gave to her via Dontos. This was all part of the plan. He couldn't have possibly learned that Sansa's hairnet was touched by Olenna or anyone else. Dontos didn't tell him before he was killed - Sansa and we would have seen and heard that.

But Olenna taking a Strangler from the hairnet isn't the same as Olenna putting that Strangler into the chalice. She could have given it to somebody else who then put it into the chalice.

The reason why I doubt it could have been Olenna is simply her diminutive size and the giant size of the chalice. This makes it impossible, in my opinion, that Olenna did the deed herself. And I don't buy that George didn't realize the problem of the giant chalice he created and the diminutive size of Olenna he also created. Those aspects call for another poisoner.

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

However, I have always though Margaery did it. She is the one who can absolutely be expected to be seated next to Joffrey. She can expect him to pass the her the Chalice. She can drink from it as her alibi - 'why would I poison something I could drink from? And why would anyone else in my family poison it when I would be in danger?' I agree Joffrey's unexpected lurch over to Tyrion and emptying the wine creates problems for identifying exactly what happened (which is probably GRRMs intent) but my money's on Margaery.

The best argument against that is that Margaery was under too close observation. She was the new queen and at the center of attention. It would have been very risky for her to do it.

There is also little risk for her considering that this was a very well-planned wedding following a precise script. The Tyrells knew what would happen when and when to actually go through with the thing. Chances are pretty high that the plan always was to poison the wine during the cutting of the pie. The king would always drink first, so there was no risk that Margaery would be poisoned, too. Not to mention that she could always spill the wine if Joff for some reason wanted her to drink first.

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

I mainly think it because of this, though, and people may not read it like me, but it struck me the first time I read it:

The High Septon knelt beside him [Joffrey]. "Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly," he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw."

 

What Alerie says is very odd. Why would she tell Margaery it was "naught to do with her" and "He choked. We all saw." Talk about arousing suspicion where there was none! I think Alerie, being her mother, recognises her sobs as guilty sobs, the way she may have cried when in trouble as a child (she does start sobbing at the point at which the High Septon appears and mentions judgement).Or else she has muttered something that Alerie has heard, eg 'forgive me'. Margaery may have agreed to kill him but the reality was ghastly and she might be expected to be horrified, at least a bit, at what she has done. Or else Alerie is just a very ham-fisted accomplice.

 

These were renewed sobs on Margaery's part. She had earlier been sobbing in Olenna's arms:

Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother's arms as the old lady said, "Be brave, be brave." Most of the musicians had fled, but one last flutist in the gallery was blowing a dirge. In the rear of the throne room scuffling had broken out around the doors, and the guests were trampling on each other. Ser Addam's gold cloaks moved in to restore order. Guests were rushing headlong out into the night, some weeping, some stumbling and retching, others white with fear. It occurred to Tyrion belatedly that it might be wise to leave himself.

Now 'be brave. be brave' is a more subtle way of reassuring Margaery, if we assume Olenna & Margaery are involved. Supposed to be taken as 'you have lost your husband on your wedding day, be brave' but easily read as 'it will work out, be brave, don't fall down on us now'.

Oh, here you have to view Lady Alerie as another knowing accomplice of the poisoning, following the scapegoat script. Margaery weeps because she blames herself that she did not stop/prevent Joff from choking to death on either the wine of the pie. The best outcome for the poisoning is that they all interpret it as an accident, meaning nobody is going to suspect poison or foul play, meaning nobody is going to be accused of regicide. That's plan A. Plan B is to make Tyrion the scapegoat, something Cersei helps them to do but for which they also have briefed Taena Merryweather who later claims she saw Tyrion poison the wine. Plan C was to blame Sansa - that's why she wore the hairnet whose stones are likely all Stranglers, so an examination would prove she had both motive and opportunity to poison the wine. Plan C was likely in place for a scenario where Tywin or Cersei were unwilling to entertain or investigate the possibility that Tyrion had done. After all, the investigation of the king's murder would fall to Tyrion's father and sister.

Thus we have to see Alerie as a rather smart person here, she starts to lay the ground for the accident scenario, and she speaks as loud as she does so others can overhear her and pick up that interpretation of events.

Olenna later reassuring Margaery is, of course, also an act. Margaery was in on the plot from the start, of course - which is made evident by her non-reaction to Joff's cruelty back when they interrogate Sansa -, and she shows that she really has great acting skills here.

8 hours ago, Castellan said:

I also think that it's true that Garlan is less likely because he is honorable, as well as because he is further from the Chalice and couldn't anticipate Joffrey's move. It's true he disapproves of Joffrey and respects Tyrion but  I think if he planned to drop poison in Joffrey's chalice he would have hidden this - not expressed his disapproval of Joffrey by telling him that pouring wine on Tyrion was 'ill done' and helping Tyrion up.

 

I think George is using the 'poison is a woman's weapon' idea and that this was Olenna and Margaery. 

It seems clear that Olenna saw to it that Garlan and Leonette sat beside Tyrion and Sansa because it was quite clear that the planned script would lead Joffrey to go to him. If Joff hadn't come up with the idea to humiliate Tyrion all by himself, Margaery would have put the idea into his head. They must have known about the jousting dwarfs, considering they were part of the plan to frame Tyrion.

And Olenna's final offer to Sansa to take her with her to Highgarden immediately after the wedding (when she takes the Strangler from the hairnet) is her last attempt to marry Sansa to Willas. But she can only make that offer if she knows it is going to be very likely that Tyrion is going to be framed for the murder. Had Sansa and Tyrion agreed that Sansa will visit Highgarden, Olenna would have likely taken steps to ensure that Sansa is not blamed for the murder - say, by having her ladies and other people come forth immediately with testimony that Sansa couldn't have had anything to do with the poisoning because they had been watching her the entire time, etc.

'Poison as a woman's weapon' is just ugly misogyny. We know Robert wanted to poison Dany, we know Androw Farman poisoned many women at Dragonstone, etc. George does not want to send the message that this kind of thing is true.

And the fact that Olenna and Margaery and Alerie are all rather good actors makes it not unlikely that some male Tyrells are pretty good at that, too. They all grew up/live in the same environment. Mace and Loras are not that subtle, but they are capable of deception, too. Just think of Renly's Ghost - yes, Littlefinger came up with the idea, but neither Loras nor Garlan had any problem going through with it.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Why would she need to hold it in her hands? She was just standing near the table, Joffrey placed his chalice on the table, and when Tywin called Joffrey, and Joffrey turned away from his wine, Margaery just dropped the stone into wine. No need to even touch the cup.

But this is where Garlan actually had a better chance of doing the deed:

Quote

“It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. “You can get up now, Uncle.”
His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him a hand. Joffrey laughed, and Cersei as well. Then others. He could not see who, but he heard them.
“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”
“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”

Margaery and Olenna are there, too, of course, but Garlan is actually the closest to Tyrion and the chalice.

Margaery was close enough to Joffrey for him take her hand the moment Tywin announced the arrival of the pie.

In fact, the entire scenario @John Suburbs gave us above is based on the false assumption that the people were sitting during the pie ceremony. Garlan was on his feet, helping Tyrion to stand up, and when the pie came in this happened:

Quote

The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks.

Garlan had no need to go anywhere to put the poison into the chalice. He was already at the right spot when the commotion started. Tyrion is the only person who is said to sit down, and that's because he has massive problems with his legs at that point:

Quote

Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair.

It is not unlikely that Garlan and Olenna did not return to their seats but actually watched the pie cutting from where they were standing during the wine bath. After all, everybody else was on their feet, too, at least for some time. Even if they returned eventually to their seats they were exactly where they needed to be to do the deed. And it is quite clear that Garlan must have been up and about to lend Tyrion a hand. He did not sit directly beside him, after all. It is also quite clear that a number of unmentioned people might have stood up as well, including Leonette and Sansa, when Tyrion had to crawl under the table to fetch the chalice. After all, they would not have wanted the dwarf tugging at their gowns or shoes.

It is rather easy to walk around since Olenna suddenly shows up as well, and since they are already at the right place to do the poisoning, there is no need to imagine them walking around during the pie cutting. They could have done the thing before they went back to their seats - if they did that at all.

It actually seems they did not - they were there the entire time, since both Olenna and Garlan are immediately there when Joff starts choking. Olenna is actually the first, which makes no sense if she returned to her seat, considering she seems to be sitting much closer to Joffrey and Margaery, possibly on the other side. And Garlan is there immediately after her, and nobody mentions him jumping from his seat.

And anybody thinking Tyrion was even remotely a clear or attentive observer of events really should reread the section. His legs are hurting very badly, he constantly thinks that he wants the wedding to be over, the wine still stings in his eyes during the pie cutting, etc. The man doesn't give a crap about the chalice standing somewhere close to him on the table.

Olenna and Garlan being there when Margaery and Joffrey come back to pick up the chalice also ensures they can intervene/help intervene should it threaten that Margaery drink from the chalice before Joffrey. Garlan or Olenna could bump into her, help her spill the wine, etc. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you think poisoning your grandson-in-law is something 'the typical grandmother' would do?

Garlan Tyrell is no typical knight. And there are a lot of men in this series who like to use poison to kill people, and a lot of them are knights. The idea that knightly vows prevent you from becoming a poisoner is ridiculous

One thing hardly equates the other. We don't have in text statements about Grandmother's not being prone to choose poison as their weapon. We do have in text statements that poison is the weapon of choice for women & cowards. Since Garlan is neither it is absolutely plausible to say this is an indication that Garlan is not the poisoner. I never said it prevented him from being the poisoner. Anything is possible. It's just a clue that he isn't. 

What Knights in the series use poison to kill people? I don't recall any. I've been wrong before. 

What makes Garlan "no typical Knight" ?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The text makes it clear that a Tyrell put the poison into the chalice. That's clear, anything else is pretty much nonsense. We don't know how it was done, but it was done. The reason I and others suggest Garlan as an alternative to Olenna is the fact that she would have physical difficulties doing it - and would be much more likely to draw attention to herself if she tried. You yourself make that clear with your back flip joke. Garlan, on the other hand, was very close to Tyrion. He had a much better opportunity.

 

Obviously it's not that clear or we wouldn't be debating it. 

I understand completely why you suggest Garlan because physically it would have been difficult for Olenna. The thing is, as John Suburbs said, it would have been physically difficult for Garlan to do it also. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But as I said - Left or Right could have done the job, too.

Well, yes technically anyone could have done it. I find it unlikely that George wrote this part with no clue as to WHO did it though so we are only left to analyze the text we have about who was where, doing what, to come up with some possibilities. I suppose it's possible he just gave us the clues we needed to conclude Olenna planned it without ever indicating or leaving hints as to who actually did the poisoning but until/unless we get the rest of the books (and maybe not then) we won't know. 

 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George wrote the show episode where Olenna poisoned the wine. If he had wanted to poison the pie he would have poisoned the pie

Just because the show had the wine poisoned doesn't mean the pie wasn't poisoned in the book. 

 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

actually it states that the careful reader of ASoS can conclude that Olenna Tyrell is the poisoner. That's not confirmation that she did the deed, it is just confirmation that this is an explanation that can be drawn from the text. George didn't say Olenna poisoned Joffrey, he said at this point people have pretty good reason to believe that Olenna poisoned Joffrey. That's a difference.

Agreed but are we arguing whether or not this was Olenna's plan or whether or not Garlan did the poisoning? I think Olenna probably planned it but didn't do the poisoning but yes, George's statement does not confirm that. I was only pointing out that he doesn't say anything about the wine. This in itself doesn't mean it was the pie but it certainly doesn't discount it either. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty obvious that it wasn't the pie.

I mean, if an entire pie was poisoned then whoever did that would have tried to poison half or more of the court. The idea that anyone could put the Strangler into a single slice of poison and dissolve it while it was delivered to table is ridiculous. And if it had been baked into the pie it would have affected the entire pie if it actually worked that way.

I disagree. I don't think the entire pie would need poisoned anymore than the entire barrel of wine would need poisoned. What's ridiculous is your stating poisoning a piece of pie is so absurd it couldn't have happened. Why not? Because you decided that's not how the poison works? Or because you decided it would have poisoned the entire pie. Neither thing can be determined from facts. If there is some persuasive evidence to be found that the pie wasn't poisoned I'm all ears. Until then though I'll stick with my first instinct: that it was the pie. 

[John Suburbs]

On 7/4/2019 at 12:38 PM, Megorova said:

@John Suburbs

If it was not Garlan, then it was Margaery.

Garlan was sitting far from Olenna, while Margaery was sitting near her grandmother. And Olenna had the poison. It was easier for her to pass it to Marge, than to Garlan.

Also, what's the point of giving the poison to Garlan, if there was no way for anyone to know, that there will be a situation, when Joffrey will leave his seat, and will go with his wine-cup to Tyrion's seat? It makes more sense for the poisoner to be someone near Joffrey, someone, who will have many many opportunities to slip the poison into Joffrey's food or wine. And who else had more opportunities like that, than Margaery, who was sitting next to Joffrey?

Also, what's the point for Olenna to reveal her plan to Garlan, if it was unlikely, that at any point of that wedding feast, Joffrey's chalise will end up anywhere near Garlan? It's not like Olenna informed all of Tyrells about her plan to kill Joffrey, just in case, if Joffrey's chalice somehow will end up near one of them, and they will have an opportunity to slip the poison into it. Thus, the most logical possibility, is that the only two people, that knew about the plan, were those two, for whom Joffrey's death was the most beneficial. And that's Olenna and Margaery. (And Littlefinger)

I was re-reading that chapter, and noticed two small but important details.

1. Margaery comes to where Joffrey is, with his chalice, near Tyrion's group, and Olenna then gives a command (The Rains of Castamere). Margaery mentions a new toast, for which Joffrey will need to refill his chalice. And she needed for his cup to have a wine in it, for her to put a poison in there. That's why she mentioned that toast.

Tyrion refills chalice. Joffrey drinks a bit, and places his cup on the table. He gives permission to Tyrion to get up. Garlan gave him a hand. Joffrey and others are laughing. Tywin calls Joffrey to cut the pie. Joffrey took Margaery by the hand, they go to cut the pie. Tyrion sits back into his chair. Then this, after the poisoning:

2. The poison was in a hard/solid form, disguised as a gemstone. It needed time to dissolve in the wine. So, it looks like Margaery had slipped the stone into Joffrey's wine, while Garlan was helping Tyrion to stand up, and everyone else was looking at that, and laughing. So, Margaery used this opportunity, and slipped the poison into wine, and then Joffrey took her hand, and they went to cut the pie. She knew, that by the time, that they will return to Joffrey's chalice, the stone in it will already dissolve, and the wine will be poisoned.

Before and after the moment of poisoning, three same elements were mentioned - Olenna, Margaery, Addam. GRRM could have wrote "gold cloaks moved in to restore order", but he specifically wrote "Ser Addam’s gold cloaks moved in to restore order". Those three elements are like opening and closing "" of the poisoning.

Not bad again, Meg. The only two problems I see here are (1) the chalice is still pretty far into the table for Margy, who is not a particularly tall girl, to reach it without first squeezing past Sansa and then performing some awkward movements to reach the rim that is probably six feet in the air, and (2) after Joffrey starts drinking poisoned wine, Margy calls him back to her side specifically to share a toast:

Quote

The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said. "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."

In the first place, why is Margaery trying to defuse the tension between Joff and Tyrion when that tension is crucial to framing Tyrion for the poisoning? And two, why is she purposefully trying to share a toast with him when she knows the wine has been poisoned and it isn't likely to take affect for another half-minute or more? (And, of course, we can dispense with the question as to why the Tyrells would purposefully give one giant chalice for Joff and Margaery to share, rather than two separate, smaller chalices that are that much easier to poison, because the wine theory requires us to simply ignore inconvenient facts like that.)

Also, she has just seen Joffrey upend the chalice all over Tyrion. What makes her think he wouldn't do the same thing again? And we would have to wonder why Margaery would wait until this late hour to finally poison the wine. Surely, there were plenty of opportunities to do it earlier when the chalice was not central to the drama that everybody in the room is now watching. There would be no reason to expect Joffrey to be eating anything, let alone Tyrion's pie, when he is that far from his own place at the table. So they would have no expectation that anyone would think it was a natural choking?

But in any event, I think we agree? Not Garlan? But no possibility that it was whomever sitting on the other side of Sansa either?

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

But in any event, I think we agree? Not Garlan? But no possibility that it was whomever sitting on the other side of Sansa either?

It was a Tyrell. I agree on that.

It seems to me, that both you and Lord Varys have a wrong vision (or at least very different from my own), of what that wedding's sitting arrangements looked like, and that's why you both are keep making same mistakes, about who could or couldn't have been that poisoner.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Margaery and Olenna are there, too, of course, but Garlan is actually the closest to Tyrion and the chalice.

Margaery was close enough to Joffrey for him take her hand the moment Tywin announced the arrival of the pie.

Margaery, Olenna and Joffrey are on one side, closer to the center. Tyrion, Sansa, Garlan are on the outer side. And the table is dividing those two groups. <- that's at the moment of the poisoning. Prior Joffrey went to cut the pie, he placed his chalice on the central/inner side of the table, while Tyrion and Garlan were on the other side, separated from it by the table's width. Margaery was standing near Joffrey, on that side of the table, where he placed his chalice. Garlan and Tyrion were in front of her, but separated from her by the table. They were busy with standing up/giving a hand, so they didn't saw, what Margaery did. And to the rest of guests, what she was doing, was not visible, because she was standing with their back to them, and chalice was standing right in front of her. She dropped the poison in the chalice, while Joffrey was there, right beside her. But no one saw it, because Joffrey was looking at Tyrion, and from the rest of guests the view of chalice was covered by Marge's back. The chalice was standing at the edge of the table, mere inches from Marge, and from Tyrion's POV, it was standing far away from him, on the side opposite from his edge of the table. For Garlan to put the poison into chalice, he would have had to reach to it across the table. While for Marge, all she had to do, is to gather her hands in front of her, you know, that typical damsel gesture for medieval ladies? possibly the poisonous gemstone was hidden inside her belt, in front, and by placing her hands in that gesture, she took the gemstone from under her belt, slightly extended one of her arms towards chalice, without even detaching her elbows from the sides of her torso, and dropped the gemstone into wine, and no one noticed. She could have done it, even while just walking by the table, passing by that chalice, without even stopping near it.

Based on what I wrote here -

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132909-little-questions-that-dont-fit-anywhere-else-part-3/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=8407467

(that link is on the "other" side of forum, so no discussing it on this side, OK? It just gives a visual of their sitting arrangements), I'm sure that Marge is the poisoner.