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Tyrion1991

Why does Dany keep saying Jorah loves her?

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I guess you skipped the Arya chapters where she hears talk of the Stark forces taking food, etc, by the smallfolk, Gendry's criticism about lords, and Arya at some point feeling ashamed over it all when she cannot deny the truth. Sevearl times we hear about Maidenpool being attacked by all type of forces: Stark, Lannister, Bloody Mummers.

Arya got nearly killed several times because of Tywin's wardogs, the same guys who killed Elia Martell and her children. Tywin let them loose before Robb had even marched south of the Twins, and Arya even got there. The reason why Varys intended to send Ned along with Yoren overland was because he knew wat type of warmongerers he was bound to meet: Ned was never meant to get to the Wall alive. You forgot about the reason why Beric was even out there? Robb made mistakes and he continued a war, but it certainly is not all on him either. He paid for it with his life.

Yes, George strings you along at first in rooting for Robb, but he always intended him to die, and from aCoK onwards, he shows the reader more and more what a folly Robb made of it and in aSoS, he makes even Robb's sister feel ashamed for what her brother's forces are doing to the smallfolk. Glover and Manderly eagerly going for Duskendale to raid it is one of those other bitter-tasting Northern exploits. Sure, it was a trap by Roose, but they sure took it eagerly. And there are plenty of people in aSoS and aFfC  in the Riverlands who mention how war brings out the worst in men. George does not exclude Northern forces from doing that.

That's not the "faintest shade of grey".

The Ironborn are indeed worse. They make pillaging their livelihood and consider living from farming and mining beneath them. That's stupid. But then we also are introduced to Ironborn who realize that isn't too smart and not a long term solution. And their land is indeed some of the worst soil. Only the Mountain Clans of the Vale and Free Folk have it worse. Balon Swann is stupid, because he uses "old times" to do this, and like Jorah he refuses accountability for his earlier rebellion, where he lost all his sons but Theon. But, an economical solution is required for the Ironborn, if any of the regions of Westeros want peace. You have to extend a hand to the losing side of a war and help them get back on their feet. Robert forgave Balon, but beyond that the Ironborn were left to rot on the Iron Islands. And eventually that backfires. This is why after WWII the allies finally realized that imposing punitive payments on Germany was unwise.

Yeah, Arya dreaming of the wolves and their hunting. She's in for a shock and likely a guilt trip once she realizes that what she dreams is really happening. She likely won't regret the soldiers and Freys killed in this way, but she will feel bad for them going after smallfolk, just as Dany felt when a father presented her the body of his child who go charred by Drogon.

Are the Starks overall better people at heart than Balon, Walder Frey and Tywin? Yes. So? But even they can commit war crimes and atrocities and be petty. They are "better" human beings, because they can admit to themselves that they made a mistake. And Dany does so as well, sometimes, or ends up choosing to acquire forces that do not pillage and rape. And some mistakes she does not want to recognize. Not everyone is a psychopath or a machiavelist. Seems to me that you dislike the Starks because you stan a few non-Stark people in the books, and you think it's "not fair!" But then we get these strange arguments of "see what Ned, Robb, Arya, etc are doing! But it's not fair, because George is only throwing a faint shade on them." Seems to me that if he indeed was only throwing a faint shade at them, then he wouldn't write Ned executing Gared, have Varys point out some valid issues about the impact Robb's war will have to Ned in the black cell, Robb making dreadful mistakes and put in smallfolk disliking him for it, etc...  2.5 books George spent on this cost: from aCoK until the end of aFfC. But hey, George is favoring Starks and not being harsh on them enough, right? Sure, he's too kind on them - their home burned down, 3 of them died, 3 are believed to be dead and surviving far away in harsh circumstances, and another gets shanked by his fellow brothers... almost all by alleged "allies", and they're all doing stuff a certain section of the readerdom cry foul over. What you claim is only in your mind.

To be fair to Robb, I think that some of the 'wolves' running rampage in the Riverlands are Karstark men looking for Jaime Lannister. They are deserters from Robb's army and their lord has been executed by Robb for murdering hostages. There is likely some ravaging of the Westerlands by Robb's army though.

Jorah committed an act he knew to be illegal, well outside the context of a war campaign, and fled to escape the consequences.

The fact that both Ned and Robb are prepared to visit justice on their own bannermen and fellow members of the nobility actually speaks well of them as leaders, whatever their other flaws. 

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"Foraging" is a legitimate military tactic, considered part and parcel of warfare whenever it is explicitly necessary. And since the Riverlords were burning their own crops and Robb/Edmure either wouldn't or couldn't coordinate forces on a large scale to put an end to the pillaging and enforce the law, everybody with a blade is engaging in acts of banditry. All we hear other than battles is lords returning to their own castles, when we should also hear of Northmen and riverlords who don't have burnt out husks sending extra men where the fighting is, and welcoming small folk refugees for the labor if nothing else.

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7 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

To be fair to Robb, I think that some of the 'wolves' running rampage in the Riverlands are Karstark men looking for Jaime Lannister. They are deserters from Robb's army and their lord has been executed by Robb for murdering hostages. There is likely some ravaging of the Westerlands by Robb's army though.

Jorah committed an act he knew to be illegal, well outside the context of a war campaign, and fled to escape the consequences.

The fact that both Ned and Robb are prepared to visit justice on their own bannermen and fellow members of the nobility actually speaks well of them as leaders, whatever their other flaws. 

True it are the Karstark men in the Riverlands who do this mostly. And Robb considers the raid of Duskendale by Glover and Manderly a complete folly. But he also knew that beheading Karstark would lead to this, and Robb opted for a solution to deal with Karstark's war crime that he knew would lead to soldiers defecting far away from home, leaderless and out for blood. Robb may not have ordered it and since they defected the direct responsibility of these crimes is not on Robb. It does not completely absolve him though. I think the reader is supposed to weigh the morality of Robb's decision here:

  • do I behead Karstark right here and now to punish his murder of two boys, knowing it will lead to Karstark levies rampaging the villages and countryside of what I now call my kingdom.
  • or do I imprison Karstark and keep his forces under my control.

Armies need to be fed. There's just no way around that. Robb takes the strategical decision to take the host to the Westerlands, to let them loose to forage and eat on the enemy territory, instead of the Riverlands who are allies. But we also have Roose using the Bloody Mummers to forage (the people they already foraged). This is inherently on Robb as well, even though it's Roose making use of them. Robb must know that Roose is using foraging tactics in the Riverlands in order to feed his host.

I agree that as war leader, he is one of those who attempts to keep what we would consider war-crimes to a minimum, and he beheads Karstark after the murder of two POW children, despite knowing it would make him lose an ally yet-again. That's why I said that it's Robb's feelings of accountability (for which I do like him) lead to his eventual loss. I was merely pointing out to the OP that it's more than just a shade of grey George throws at this campaign, and gives the reader enough examples and information to help us in realizing what the farmers and smallfolk think of Robb's army in the Westerlands and eventually in the Riverlands. All by himself Robb is a likeable young man who tries to do the right thing in a campaign that a) is impossible to attain in the long run (the Riverlands have no natural protection) b ) involves devastating consequences upon the smallfolk.

It becomes even more bitter, when Robb already plans to basically abandon the Riverlands to retake the North. The answers are not as simple here as the OP tried to make it out. This is not white with just a smidge of grey, especially when you look at it from the angle of Robb as sovereign over the Riverlands (the majority of the RL lords chose him). He's not even trying to hunt for the Karstark men raping and pillaging his kingdom's countryside. Instead he's off to a new campaign to retake Moat Cailin and the Northern half to get rid of an invader there. He thereby betrays a sentiment that, ultimately, Robb does not regard the Riverlands' smallfolk as much as his people he needs to protect as he does of the North. The Riverlands was only his kingdom as tactical move to please his allies. My main point is that George deliberately wrote Robb's campaign, his choices and the results to leave the reader with double feelings, just like Arya ends up feeling when she hears of the war crimes of the Karstarks. She begrudgingly has to admit in body language and thought that the BwB and Gendry are right about high men at their war games, and feels a sense of shame because of association.

I also agree that Jorah's act was illegal, he knew it, it was selfish, and certainly outside of war campaign. It's weird to me that the OP defend a man's 100% corrupt decisions in peacetime on the lands he lords and controls, and then cry foul about the overlord whose family once gifted those lands to Jorah's ancestors (Bear Island wasn't always lorded by the Mormonts, just like White Harbor wasn't always Manderly's) to protect in a feudal society wanting his head over it, and to go compare it with Robb's war campaign. OP makes clear he wants a happy family ending for Jorah (perhaps OP has glamorous hot Iain Glen on their mind, not book-Jorah).

To bring this discussion finally back to the OP of this thread, where Dany debates with Jorah's spirit/memory on his motivation. The OP's initial question is a very interesting one, and it does come down to Jorah's conscious and morality. Unfortunately OP misses out on the answer, as long as OP refuses to examine Jorah's morality sceptically and regards "love" only in a romantic light.

Jorah says "home" and Dany insists on it not being the sole reason, but love for her as well. Why doesn't she like this "home" reason? Because by then Dany's subconscious begins to realize something about Jorah.

  • Ned Stark found out about his corrupt act that goes straight against what a Lord is expected to do. He wanted Jorah's head and life for it. And Jorah abandoned his home and fled. Basically we can see Jorah on the same level as Roose Bolton. Both did something they knew the Lord of WF would take their life for. One got caught, the other was not.
  • "Home" means that Jorah never accepted the immorality of his actions. Jorah does not just want to return home. He wants his lordship back (the quirks) too. That's what Dany ends up promising to him at the end of aGoT and early on in aCoK. 
  • Jorah first spied on her and Viserys to get a pardon from Robert, to force Ned Stark and his aunt Maege Mormont to concede Bear Island back to him.
  • Once Robert is dead, his sole remaining chance in getting back home is Dany. So, now Jorah is helping her get an army and conquer Slaver's Bay to ultimately conquer Westeros. If "home" his sole motivation, then he's using Dany in the same way he tried to use Robert - to sideline Ned Stark and have a bigger boss outranking Ned's decision.
  • This makes Jorah very mercenary. Dany frees the slaves from a new ideological insight. If Jorah helps her in that for "home", he still doesn't care about what he did to the poachers he sold into slavery, still doesn't recognize the imorality of it.
  • If it's only "home", then that means Jorah would have done the same thing if Viserys had lived, and if Dany had no intention of freeing slaves. It makes Jorah a war mongerer to get the home back that he forfeited for an immoral act that goes directly against Dany's ideology.

It's at this implied consequence of Jorah's motivation that Dany insists on the "for love".

  • She needs confirmation that Jorah would not have followed Viserys.
  • Drogo changed his mind on what to do with the women the Dothraki took prison, followed her advice, "for love". If Jorah helped her conquer Slaver's Bay as she freed slaves "for love", she has confirmation in her eyes that Jorah may have changed his mind about slavery.

Of course, in Jorah's case "for love" is not enough for him to re-examine his past decisions, his own opinion about slavery. He does whatever to please and win a woman. If Dany had not been intent on freeing slaves, but was conquering cities to make an army of slaves, like the Yunkai and Ghiscari do in front of Meereen, Jorah would have helped with that too, without questioning her. He does not have Dany's moral values about slavery. Ultimately, from her perspective, she's trying to determine whether Jorah is a sellsword or a sworn sword. What she doesn't realize is that ultimately Jorah is willing to be a sellsword for love just as well. He was a sellsword to keep Lynesse. And by the time Dany has her vision, Jorah just became a sellsword for love to be allowed near Dany. 

How important this is for Dany we get from a small hint in a conversation she had with Daario. She mentions Serwyn of the Mirror Shield to Daario.

Quote

Beside her, Daario Naharis was sleeping as peacefully as a newborn babe. He had a gift for sleeping, he'd boasted, smiling in that cocksure way of his. In the field, he would sleep in the saddle oft as not, he claimed, so as to be well rested should he come upon a battle. Sun or storm, it made no matter. "A warrior who cannot sleep soon has no strength to fight," he said. He was never vexed by nightmares either. When Dany told him how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was haunted by the ghosts of all the knights he'd killed, Daario only laughed. "If the ones I killed come bother me, I will kill them all again." He has a sellsword's conscience, she realized then. That is to say, none at all.

Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was a hero of the Age of Heroes, sworn to a Gardener King. He saved a princess from a giant, killed a dragon using his mirror shield. And he was haunted by the ghosts of those he killed. So, while he killed many for his king, Serwyn was a man weighed down by his conscious. (BTW we get many hints in Jon's arc in aDwD that Jon is a parallel to Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and his mirror shields is the biggest mirror on the planet - the Wall; except he's also the dragon staring into the mirror, never seeing the pointy end coming from behind).

Serwyn is so popular amongst the smallfolk that the singers' song turned him into a kingsguard, which is an institute that did not exist until almost 10000 years after Serwyn lived. A kingsguard is a "sworn shield" or "sworn sword", not a "sellsword". And they swear their shield or sword to a king or queen out of love for their sovereign, because they believe that sovereign to be an enlightened ruler.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Yes the character should get a happy ending because he’s awesome. We’re back to discussing taste. I don’t put tragedy and nihilism on a pedestal. 

I judge the character by his actions, not whatever Ned Stark thinks. He thought Jamie deserved to take the black for killing the Mad King. The old widow in Volantis was being cynical when she says he has dark intentions. He did not know that Rob died until Qarth after he pledged to serve her. He did give up on home to save Dany. That put him in the crosshairs of a lot of people. He almost died in the Red Waste for her and he stood by the side of this beggar queen when almost everyone else had abandoned her. He has taken on enormous personal sacrifice, duty is to serve his Queen who he loves. He served when serving was hard. Those are intensely admirable qualities, never mind in a world where most Knights are raping brigands who beat little girls.

Yes, he’s arrogant. Yes he isn’t self critical. Yes he doesn’t look back on the few bad things he’s done. Yet. The problem with show Jorah is that he was a static character whereas Jorah in the books is more like Thor being exiled by Odin. “You are a greedy, cruel boy! You are unworthy!” He has things he can improve on. (As as aside the Old Bear even has the raven)

You don’t just want the character to say “I was a fool” you think he should be truly punished for actions that are totally inconsequential when set against what he’s done. I think it is horrible that you really believe that what Jorah has done for Dany doesn’t outweigh a trivial slight on the North. If the Starks really are going to build that Last Alliance against the Others then they aren’t going to do it by demanding everyone line up to beg forgiveness and kiss their hands. Never mind that the punishment of taking the black is a horrendous waste of life. I detest Jon’s arc but he has been useless at that Wall. 

Well I think Dany loves Jorah because that’s very closely tied to her story. You already brought up the Beauty and the Beast analogy. Dany thinks that she will never find her Moon and Stars again and another man like  Drogo who truly loves her. She’s convinced that’s not Jorah (probably Jon boy)and then sends him away from her. But, she’s also wracked by her feelings towards him and feels incredibly alone in ADWD. Perhaps this is part of Danys tragedy. That she sends away the man she does love because she can’t forgive him or accept that she does love him.

Now, I dunno, maybe George likes the idea of Jorah going full Cristan Cole and make it more understandable for Dany. Because if George wanted us to think Jorah was a bad guy then this is where he would be leading to. But, we haven’t heard a whisper of resentment towards Dany herself yet. Shock yes, stubborn pride and insistence he’s no ones creature yes. But he’s never shown any hatred towards her. There were plenty of opportunities to belittle Dany in Tyrion’s arc when he wasn’t in earshot of her. So I think it’s too left field for him to try to destroy Dany. Plus it would be cheap to replay the Dance quite so closely. 

Even if she decides to kill him in TWOW, he’d likely just escape and then go off to the Nurth. Then I dunno maybe he does ask for forgiveness since he’d have little other choice.

Yeah, isn’t it also selfish for him to get to go home because he does nice things for the Starks? Few kind words, few Bolton and Frey skulls on the table? But no, apparently that’s all a selfless act of honour isn’t it? If you think he’s just lying to Dany then what stops him lying to the Starks and his family? 

As an aside, Jorah only talks of home. He does not talk about being Lord of anything. He doesn’t even mention being King (note that Dany is not a Queen at this point) when he asks to marry Dany. Love and home really are his motivations. He’s not interested in power for himself.

Also you mentioned a few times he was infertile. Not sure what gave you that impression and it’s macabre that you think people who can’t have kids shouldn’t get to be in love. I think they mention that his Glover wife had three miscarriages and that the last killed her. Lynesse we don’t know. Perhaps Lynesse is infertile. Sounds like he was unlucky. Considering how cool the Mormonts are the thought of more of them is not a bad thing. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I judge the character by his actions, not whatever Ned Stark thinks.

His actions are mercenary. I don't need Ned Stark to point that out for me.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The old widow in Volantis was being cynical when she says he has dark intentions.

The old widow has insight in humans.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

He did give up on home to save Dany. That put him in the crosshairs of a lot of people.

More like Illyrio sent him a note to warn him there was an order to assassinate Dany, and he was to prevent it and expose the scheme.  It put him in nobody's crosshairs whatsoever for whom he spied

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

He has taken on enormous personal sacrifice, duty is to serve his Queen who he loves.

. He had nowhere to go but follow her. He had no pardon yet.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 like Thor being exiled by Odin.

No idea what you're talking about here... some action movie? They have little to nothing to do with Norse myth.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

you think he should be truly punished for actions that are totally inconsequential when set against what he’s done.

As I have mentioned close to 10 times now: I want that man to own the wrong he did to other people, without excuses, without "buts". An adult who cannot do that is untrustworthy and will keep on acting irresponsibly.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I think it is horrible that you really believe that what Jorah has done for Dany doesn’t outweigh a trivial slight on the North.

It's not about trivial slight. It's about war mongering so  that once again others must pay for the wrong he did to others. I think it's horrible you think a creep like Jorah who basically assaulted her and sold people into slavery is "awesome".

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well I think Dany loves Jorah because that’s very closely tied to her story.

Thank you for saying it. So, basically your OP was a question where you hoped we'd all say "oh, Dany insists on Jorah loving her, because he's her true love".

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Yeah, isn’t it also selfish for him to get to go home because he does nice things for the Starks? Few kind words, few Bolton and Frey skulls on the table?

Once again you're just saying whatever, supposing this or that. I never said he should do such a thing. In fact, I've repeatedly wrote that's not what it's about. It's about effing uttering some insight to someone (just anyone at this point) that what he did was immoral, that he hates what he did years ago. That's what it's about for me: the man finally growing a conscious.

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Also you mentioned a few times he was infertile. Not sure what gave you that impression and it’s macabre that you think people who can’t have kids shouldn’t get to be in love. I think they mention that his Glover wife had three miscarriages and that the last killed her. Lynesse we don’t know. Perhaps Lynesse is infertile. Sounds like he was unlucky. Considering how cool the Mormonts are the thought of more of them is not a bad thing. 

Excuse me? I myself am infertile. So, no, OF COURSE I don't think that people who cannot have kids shouldn't get to be in love. One miscarriage is being unlucky. Three miscarriages is an indication that something's wrong. His second wife never even getting pregnant adds to it. Jorah cannot father children. That's a logical conclusion and I'm saying it to indicate to you that you can stop daydreaming about Jorah having kids. It's not going to happen for him. A fulfilling life is possible without having children. 

And actually there are plenty of cool little Mormonts around. Alysane Mormont has a daughter of nine and a son of two. Since Dacey Mormont was slaughtered at the Red Wedding, Alysane is Maege's heir, and her children are her heirs. She deliberately did not marry, to ensure that no guy's family could usurp House Mormont. Her mother Maege did not marry for the same reason. They just can't wed, or the man and his kin might think Bear Island is theirs from now on. Jorah Mormont condemned his aunt and cousin to remaining unwed and using a tale as "fathered by a bear" to make sure Bear Island remains House Mormont. But hey, it's so unfair that Jorah lost his home by getting caught at being corrupt and breaking his contract with his own people, and then he still lost the woman he did that all for, and now he wants get Dany to conquer Westeros and give him a Valyrian sword and his home back? Give me a break.

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On 7/1/2019 at 7:12 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I never got Danys reasoning behind this.

In Clash Jorah says that his former wife Lynesse who he loved dearly looks like Dany. Now, most people, would join the dots and think that this is plain simple lust. Tyrion jibes Jorah about this in ADWD “like with like is that the way of it? Guess you’ll take a nice she bear.” Jorah wants his old wife back and Dany just happens to look like her. But instead Dany immediately and without any pause thinks that “he loves me as he loves her”. Which is a massive leap and it then becomes a point that Dany brings up almost whenever she thinks of Jorah. 

To take the most recent and prominent example in ADWD from her last chapter:

  Hide contents
 

”My Bear, she thought, my old sweet bear, who loved me and betrayed me. She had missed him so. She wanted to see his ugly face, to wrap her arms around him and press herself against his chest, but she knew if she turned around Ser Jorah would be gone. 

“Iam dreaming” she said. “A waking dream, a walking dream. Iam alone and lost.”

Lost because you lingered, in a place you were never meant to be, murmured Ser Jorah as softly as the wind. Alone, because you sent me from your side.

”You betrayed me. You informed on me, for gold.”

For home. Home was all I ever wanted.

”And me. You wanted me.” Dany had seen it in his eyes.

I did, the grass whispered, sadly.

”You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me”

 

Yes Dany really is arguing with a ghost that Jorah loves her.

Now I think the last bits probably the most telling about Danys state of mind where she insists that “you meant it when you kissed me”. Because it means Dany isn’t referring to just lust or a platonic bond or some parental affection when she talks of love. When she says that Jorah loves it’s her placing value on that romantic attachment.

Am I missing something here? Iam not sure why George is so keen to stress this. If the point of Jorah is that he should get over his unhealthy obsession and entitlement with this beautiful woman who he’s lusting over; then why have Dany view it in a positive light at all? Seems kind of redundant.

If George wanted to say that Dany missed her friend then there are a lot of ways to express that. Not, waxing lyrical on true love. Why does Dany care exactly?

The only thing I can think is that although Dany doesn’t have any romantic feelings towards Jorah she still takes an enormous amount of reassurance from it. So she wants to believe that this guy truly loves her because it gave her some comfort having Jorah be so beholden to her. Perhaps the best example I can think of is how she is so shocked Jorah could love and betray her; totalling ignoring his point that this was before he came to love her. For Dany this is never a valid point because it doesn’t fit her narrative that’s she’s built around Jorah. Once she learns he loves her she basically defines him by that character trait. This is why she feels the need to argue with the Ghost when it says that he only cared about home and that “I did” love her. Dany again disputes both these points because she doesn’t want to believe them. So I think she has an idealised image of Jorah in her head that doesn’t have any resemblance to his actual character. Perhaps it just means she doesn’t know him at all?

There are two sides to Dany.  Dany, the teenager and Dany, the ruler.  The teenager is keen on picking up subtle emotions.  She knows Jorah loves her.  The ruler knows she must punish Jorah and did.  Jorah was spying on the Targaryens but he has never done anything to harm them.  He was informing on them but when the time came to choose, he chose her over his home.  I think Dany the teenager knows this but the ruler side knows he must be punished.  Jorah has saved her life often.  That qualifies as proof of loyalty for most people but the ruler side is tough. The two sides reached a compromise and banished him instead of sentencing him to death.  Jorah loves her but that love wasn't there at the beginning.  He is being seen partly for what he was and what he is now.  

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On 7/1/2019 at 8:12 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I never got Danys reasoning behind this.

In Clash Jorah says that his former wife Lynesse who he loved dearly looks like Dany. Now, most people, would join the dots and think that this is plain simple lust. Tyrion jibes Jorah about this in ADWD “like with like is that the way of it? Guess you’ll take a nice she bear.” Jorah wants his old wife back and Dany just happens to look like her. But instead Dany immediately and without any pause thinks that “he loves me as he loves her”. Which is a massive leap and it then becomes a point that Dany brings up almost whenever she thinks of Jorah. 

To take the most recent and prominent example in ADWD from her last chapter:

  Reveal hidden contents
 

”My Bear, she thought, my old sweet bear, who loved me and betrayed me. She had missed him so. She wanted to see his ugly face, to wrap her arms around him and press herself against his chest, but she knew if she turned around Ser Jorah would be gone. 

“Iam dreaming” she said. “A waking dream, a walking dream. Iam alone and lost.”

Lost because you lingered, in a place you were never meant to be, murmured Ser Jorah as softly as the wind. Alone, because you sent me from your side.

”You betrayed me. You informed on me, for gold.”

For home. Home was all I ever wanted.

”And me. You wanted me.” Dany had seen it in his eyes.

I did, the grass whispered, sadly.

”You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me”

 

Yes Dany really is arguing with a ghost that Jorah loves her.

Now I think the last bits probably the most telling about Danys state of mind where she insists that “you meant it when you kissed me”. Because it means Dany isn’t referring to just lust or a platonic bond or some parental affection when she talks of love. When she says that Jorah loves it’s her placing value on that romantic attachment.

Am I missing something here? Iam not sure why George is so keen to stress this. If the point of Jorah is that he should get over his unhealthy obsession and entitlement with this beautiful woman who he’s lusting over; then why have Dany view it in a positive light at all? Seems kind of redundant.

If George wanted to say that Dany missed her friend then there are a lot of ways to express that. Not, waxing lyrical on true love. Why does Dany care exactly?

The only thing I can think is that although Dany doesn’t have any romantic feelings towards Jorah she still takes an enormous amount of reassurance from it. So she wants to believe that this guy truly loves her because it gave her some comfort having Jorah be so beholden to her. Perhaps the best example I can think of is how she is so shocked Jorah could love and betray her; totalling ignoring his point that this was before he came to love her. For Dany this is never a valid point because it doesn’t fit her narrative that’s she’s built around Jorah. Once she learns he loves her she basically defines him by that character trait. This is why she feels the need to argue with the Ghost when it says that he only cared about home and that “I did” love her. Dany again disputes both these points because she doesn’t want to believe them. So I think she has an idealised image of Jorah in her head that doesn’t have any resemblance to his actual character. Perhaps it just means she doesn’t know him at all?

Dany has no experience in relationships, despite having a very active sex life lately, let's see, she's sleeping with Daario thinking she's in love, when it's obvious to us that she's only interested in having sex.

She is sold to Drogo, he doesn't even mind spending time with her, nor does they have meals together, he just looks for her at dawn to have sex, so she falls in love with him, but the only thing they did was sex.

Dany lived with her brother who touched her body, squeezed her breasts, looked at her with desire, apparently he did that many times, he made Dany understand that he would marry her in the future, then tried to rape her shortly before she married, yet she gives his name to a dragon and fondly remembers him sometimes.

It's all people who even indirectly help her, and who she believes loved her, Drogo really fell in love with her, Daario may have fallen in love too.

It doesn't make it hard to understand that she romanticizes the desire and the sex as pure love, almost every man who has come close to her since she was 13 wanted to have sex with her, it's very easy for you to be 16 and look at them with pink glasses and tell yourself that you were all in love. 

And well, in that case she's right, Jorah is deliriously in love with her. A man does not kidnap a dwarf and set off on a perilous journey, being enslaved and humiliated along the way, knowing that he will find her married but not giving up yet, for a woman he only feels like having sex and nothing more, if Jorah isn't in love with Dany really, then I don't think anyone loves anyone in these books.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/6/2019 at 12:32 PM, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Because he’s an old, warrior like creep and a pervert and apart from the fact that he’s fugly that’s just Dany’s type

Yes when she sees that Jorah has come back with a tattoo and a nose-less dwarf she won't hold back...

Dany- Get out of here dwarf, because now my Bear Jorah will take me in every way that a man can takes a woman

Edited by TedBear

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Aside from Jorah being Dany's oldest friend, he's also the only adviser whose opinion, as of this point in time, Dany truly respects. Dany recognizes that Barristan is a great knight, but she doesn't think he's all that perceptive (and to be fair, Barristan doesn't think of himself as all that smart either). She treats with the Meereenese, but at this point she's tired of assimilating, and she doesn't trust that any of them have her best interests at heart. Jorah has made a lot of questionable personal decisions, but he's also intelligent, tactical, and very devoted to Dany. Even if you think his feelings for Dany are inappropriate, there's no denying that the two of them had a close bond, and that she took a lot of comfort in being able to confide in him.

Dany's desire to be loved and adored is something that I think is going to play a huge role in her path going forward. I don't know if we're allowed to talk about the show in this thread, but I interpreted her actions at the end of the series as being the result of feeling unloved. There's a very good chance that, with Aegon presumably beating her to King's Landing, Dany will be painted as a foreign invader, which will shatter her notion of Westeros being her one true home. 

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On 1/1/2020 at 10:22 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jorah has made a lot of questionable personal decisions, but he's also intelligent, tactical, and very devoted to Dany.

I see him as Dany's Littlefinger in some ways, remove protegee relationship, keep the creep incel factor, keep the misplaced grievances, keep the younger woman to replace past love. So imagine if LF was okay being a servant, then you'd have Jorah. Its similar enough that it makes him less interesting to me.

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13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I see him as Dany's Littlefinger in some ways, remove protegee relationship, keep the creep incel factor, keep the misplaced grievances, keep the younger woman to replace past love. So imagine if LF was okay being a servant, then you'd have Jorah. Its similar enough that it makes him less interesting to me

As much as you like the good guys, it's the bad guys that make the story really interesting. Jorah is really scary, but she doesn't compare to LF, LF doesn't love Sansa either, he loved Cat in the past, today he doesn't love anyone but himself, if Sansa careless she will be the pawn in his hands, a better comparison for me would be Varys and Aegon. 

Jorah's case is different, I find it easier for him to just have a female physical preference than to associate Dany with his ex who cheated on him and is currently with a rich Lysenne, I mean if I were Jorah I would hate any memory of her, which is usually happens when we are betrayed, he was even ashamed to tell Dany what he did for Lynesse (to end up getting kicked in the ass). 

Besides we don't know how much they look alike, he says "she was a bit like you" I definitely had a girl at school like Angelina Jolie, but on a good note she just had a similar lip. He never comments about the color of the eyes (which were probably different from Dany's too) nor about facial features, Dany is described as being similar to Lynesse, Ashara and Naerys (according to GRRM), These three women would probably not all be the same.

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On 7/2/2019 at 1:12 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

In Clash Jorah says that his former wife Lynesse who he loved dearly looks like Dany. Now, most people, would join the dots and think that this is plain simple lust. Tyrion jibes Jorah about this in ADWD “like with like is that the way of it? Guess you’ll take a nice she bear.” Jorah wants his old wife back and Dany just happens to look like her.

But then again, in ASOS he calles her "the bravest, sweetest, and most beautiful woman I have ever seen". Which one is it? Or is Jorah conflicted?

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I love you, Dany. Don't kill me, please. If you want your world rocked, I am the man to rock it. Never mind all these other guys.

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Because Jorah does love her.  I would wager most men around Dany would fall in love with her too.  There is a lot to admire in that young lady.  Jorah is responding like a man would.  

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GRRM has such a cynical view of love that he has to have everyone so blinded by it they make self-destructive, idiotic decisions. Jaime is on that train. So is Tyrion. It's even played out with a minor POV like Arys Oakheart. Personally, I'm getting tired of reading about it.

Jorah, grown ass man, was shown to be a fool like Sansa in Book 1. With Lynesse he couldn't face reality and clung so hard to a romantic ideal that he destroyed himself. But you know what? I think it's happening AGAIN. Painful reading is watching every man become lobotomized when they meet Dany. I think he's the type of idiot to repeat the same storyline with her. Tyrion will probably repeat the same storyline too, thinking with his dick again rather than his head. 

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On 1/8/2020 at 8:57 PM, TedBear said:

As much as you like the good guys, it's the bad guys that make the story really interesting. Jorah is really scary, but she doesn't compare to LF, LF doesn't love Sansa either, he loved Cat in the past, today he doesn't love anyone but himself, if Sansa careless she will be the pawn in his hands, a better comparison for me would be Varys and Aegon. 

Jorah's case is different, I find it easier for him to just have a female physical preference than to associate Dany with his ex who cheated on him and is currently with a rich Lysenne, I mean if I were Jorah I would hate any memory of her, which is usually happens when we are betrayed, he was even ashamed to tell Dany what he did for Lynesse (to end up getting kicked in the ass). 

Besides we don't know how much they look alike, he says "she was a bit like you" I definitely had a girl at school like Angelina Jolie, but on a good note she just had a similar lip. He never comments about the color of the eyes (which were probably different from Dany's too) nor about facial features, Dany is described as being similar to Lynesse, Ashara and Naerys (according to GRRM), These three women would probably not all be the same.

It's an example of men projecting their lost loves into another beautiful woman.  Dany is stunningly beautiful and it is understandable why these men would find (better yet, imagine) a similarity with a long lost love.  

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On 1/9/2020 at 5:49 PM, Big P said:

Because Jorah does love her.  I would wager most men around Dany would fall in love with her too.  There is a lot to admire in that young lady.  Jorah is responding like a man would.  

A lot to admire indeed.  It would be different if she was beautiful and nothing else.  So most men would be drawn and attracted to her.  

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