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DanteGabriel

US Politics: RIP EHK FYVM GOP

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34 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

Um, then you lack imagination.  And a basic education in recent history.

Lacking imagination, says the person who, when he dislikes someone, decides he will only read said person's comments literally. But to satisfy your obtuse insistence on pedantry, let me clarify the first sentence for you: the worst thing I want to imagine currently happening in the country that is the supposed leader of the free world. 

When you feel like you disagree with someone, I think you should consider being curious, not critical. This is what I taught my 8th graders, this is what I teach my college students, and I think it's a lesson that would make you a much more tolerate person. Consider this advice as a gift, though whether you use it or not has little bearing on my day to day, except that as a fellow human, I hope you find a way to be less angry and negative and improve your life in some meaningful way. May I recommend Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl? It's short, and I believe you could handle this without your cynicism forcing you to hurl it across your bedroom in a fit. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Triskele said:

Since Sullivan started talking about this potential blind spot for the Dems David Brooks and Bret Stephens have weighed in along similar lines, and done so both less effectively and with the baggage that they bring to the discussion.  A lot of left-leaning internet has had a swift backlash to that which I understand, but I still think the thrust of the thing is not that far off even if Stephens is a terrible spokesperson for it. 

Those articles that Stephens & Brooks wrote were racist, especially the former's statement re: the 'them vs us', which came across as pretty white nationalist. Also, this is the same Stephens who wrote about the 'disease of the Arab mind' - I have no sympathy for him or the backlash he has faced. In addition, you don't need to be a 'leftist' to identify the racist stuff that Stephens peddles in his columns. Trisk, I want to read your posts and not shake my head, but it is hard to do when when you bring up people like Stephens & Brooks and the lessons we need to heed from them, and then go on about some vague notion of 'compromise' on health coverage for undocumented immigrants even though there is very little coverage to begin with.

Undocumented immigrants are a vulnerable population, there is *mountains* of research that has shown that. Let's pretend that there isn't *anyone* seeking asylum at the border. You *still* have a significant undocumented immigrant population that needs to be covered in places that historically have a lot of undocumented immigrants ( it is also not just these states, undocumented immigrants now exist in a lot of states where previously there were few), such as CA & NY, I bring up those two states as legislators have realized that they need a system to protect undocumented immigrants - SF & NYC have probably the best system for undocumented immigrants, the NYC one is quite new, the SF one slightly older. They don't cover all services. There is cost sharing involved in both. You still have a significant undocumented immigrant population that need some form of coverage even if there is no one on the south border seeking asylum.

'Being too woke on immigration' is having a federal program that covers a set of health services for undocumented immigrants - is that too woke? There is *nothing* at the moment, no federal programs except for emergency services. How is that being too woke? I can link a *bunch* of stuff to you regarding how emergency services is not enough to care for a population, but I would imagine that you know this already.

Also re: the danger of it being depicted that way - you're not going to be changing minds of the people who automatically see those raised hands and say 'oh, they're using our money to pay for healthcare for brown people, I'm voting against them'. And you know, if someone was *actually* interested in this stuff, they would see that that is not what the democratic nominees are saying.

And this is not even getting into how terrible the system is for *documented* immigrants like me when compared to a lot europe or other OECD countries.

Edited by Raja

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11 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

When you feel like you disagree with someone, I think you should consider being curious, not critical.

And I think you should get a sense of humor.

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30 minutes ago, Raja said:

snip

Why do you keep responding to my posts as if I'm making an argument about what I think about what's racist or not or what the fair and just stance towards these immigrants would be?  I'm not even attempting to address these things, and yes, Bret Stephens sucks.  

I am simply talking about how this might play electorally.

I am hopeful that most other readers get that this is my point.  

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6 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Why do you keep responding to my posts as if I'm making an argument about what I think about what's racist or not or what the fair and just stance towards these immigrants would be?  I'm not even attempting to address these things, and yes, Bret Stephens sucks.  

I am simply talking about how this might play electorally.

I am hopeful that most other readers get that this is my point.  

Some people are incapable of holding two different thoughts in their mind at once, they're not all Republican either.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Why do you keep responding to my posts as if I'm making an argument about what I think about what's racist or not or what the fair and just stance towards these immigrants would be?  I

I'm responding less to your assertions re: Stephens and more to your assertion that providing anything beyond what is currently provided to undocumented immigrants is 'too woke', which makes up the majority of the post.

There is also the undertone of 'compromising' on immigration or healthcare for immigrants, without ever being specific, which comes across as problematic.

Edited by Raja

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39 minutes ago, DMC said:

And I think you should get a sense of humor.

Ah, so it's all a joke then? Well, my curiosity with you has ended.

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4 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

Well, my curiosity with you has ended.

:crying:  Dude if you can't figure out that I was just giving you shit...I"m happy your "curiosity" with me has ended then.

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I think the deal is that Democrats have to be careful that they don't SAY that they actually really like brown people and want to help them and give them medical care (even though that is what they want) because they don't want to infuriate the racist democrats out there.

When they're in power, they can do that, of course. But they can't actually say it. 

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6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I think the deal is that Democrats have to be careful that they don't SAY that they actually really like brown people and want to help them and give them medical care (even though that is what they want) because they don't want to infuriate the racist democrats out there.

When they're in power, they can do that, of course. But they can't actually say it. 

100 points to Kalbear for reading comprehension.

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Poor Justin Amash.

He actually thought that Tea Partiers actually knew and gave a fuck about Hayek, Austrian Economics, libertarian political theory, the writings of Locke and all that, instead of just wanting to keep the "socialism" for themselves.

That said. I still respect that he won't play along with Team Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/justin-amash-our-politics-is-in-a-partisan-death-spiral-thats-why-im-leaving-the-gop/2019/07/04/

Quote

Today, I am declaring my independence and leaving the Republican Party. No matter your circumstance, I’m asking you to join me in rejecting the partisan loyalties and rhetoric that divide and dehumanize us. I’m asking you to believe that we can do better than this two-party system — and to work toward it. If we continue to take America for granted, we will lose it.

 

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18 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Poor Justin Amash.

He actually thought that Tea Partiers actually knew and gave a fuck about Hayek, Austrian Economics, libertarian political theory, the writings of Locke and all that, instead of just wanting to keep the "socialism" for themselves.

That said. I still respect that he won't play along with Team Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/justin-amash-our-politics-is-in-a-partisan-death-spiral-thats-why-im-leaving-the-gop/2019/07/04/

 

Motherfucker is about to lose office so fast he won't have time for no tea parties.

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17 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Motherfucker is about to lose office so fast he won't have time for no tea parties.

He'll have to go lobbyist just to afford the colonial costumes.

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7 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

He'll have to go lobbyist just to afford the colonial costumes.

I thought Tea Partiers traded those in for MAGA hats.

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Just wanna say, good to see ya again OGE!

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Just wanna say, good to see ya again OGE!

Thanks! :cheers:

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Triskele said:

One of the moderators basically was asking these questions like "Are any of you such bigots that you won't give healthcare to migrants / immigrants before we'd extend it to the Americans that still don't have it?"

Since Sullivan started talking about this potential blind spot for the Dems David Brooks and Bret Stephens have weighed in along similar lines, and done so both less effectively and with the baggage that they bring to the discussion.  A lot of left-leaning internet has had a swift backlash to that which I understand, but I still think the thrust of the thing is not that far off even if Stephens is a terrible spokesperson for it.  

Damon Linker is much better and got in on the discussion here the other day.  

The reason I keep harping on this is that it worries me that there's a snag defeat from the jaws of victory possibility here is the Dems are too woke on immigration.  I'd gladly be proven wrong, but this is I swear the type of thing where a lot of voters (and plenty of non-white voters) could vote differently then from how they respond to poll questions.  It's quite possible for a human to hold the position that Trump's camps are cruel and disgraceful and that it would be unfair if everyone seeking asylum gets free healthcare.*

*I realize too that this is not necessarily the official Dem position, but there's danger in being depicted this way.  You have to deal with the media and the electorate that you have rather than what you might want to some extent.  

 

ETA:  Former Nate Silver protege says Bernie in trouble.

There was always the question of how does Sanders do in a much more crowded field.   

Well, that's one way to look at it.  I'd say it's a messaging issue more than anything else - the Dems definitely walked into a trap on that question - buts it's not a crazy speech that has to be made to explain - "Yes, I want any human, regardless of their country of origin, to have access to free healthcare in this country.  Our healthcare system is overpriced and we can make it more affordable for everyone with universal coverage.  It works.  It's an economic fact ".  

I feel like these urges to cater towards the most fucked up things about a few moderate voters are overblown paranoia.  Besides, if there's some guy out there who wants to vote Dem, but won't because of their position in immigration, how far do you have to go to court their vote?  Will it take a wall?  How do you handle the camps in the meantime?  How do you not alienate your base throwing a bone to the shitheads?  

I'm not saying your wrong for asking this, I'm saying that there have to be other options.  And Bret Stephens isn't a moderate or a voice of the center, he's an old school conservative who got left behind by Trumpism.  The 'ordinary' people he talks about in his op-ed that got shredded barely exist, and I doubt he's met them if they do.  They're like Chuck Schumer's fictional O'Reilly's.  

This is the same cowardly tendency in the keft to run to the center like a bunch of people were saying they should do during Trump's  shutdown.  "Just give him a little money".  No.  Fuck that.  If there weren't these camps at the border right now, sure.  But this shit is getting out of hand fast.  No.  It's going to become normal soon.  

If you can't sell someone on voting for your obviously superior healthcare plan on its own merits, are they really going to vote for you anyway?  If that's a big issue for them are they really going to give that up just to stick it to brown people?  Is that really the onl y way Trump doesn't win MI, WI and PA?  I refuse to believe the only road to victory is to start dogwhistling through the Midwest.  

Edited by larrytheimp

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Refusing reality doesn't make it any less real. A very large amount of people can't bear the thought of spending money on anything that doesn't directly affect them. That's not a Republican or Democrat thing, it's an American thing.

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4 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Refusing reality doesn't make it any less real. A very large amount of people can't bear the thought of spending money on anything that doesn't directly affect them. That's not a Republican or Democrat thing, it's an American thing.

Yeah, I get that, I'm just not convinced that in order to beat Trump that this is the key maneuver it's all riding on.  It's chickenshittery.

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If Dems are already running in universal healthcare this is a no brainer :

Maga Dude That You Think Will Switch Teams: I'm not paying for some immigrants health care 

Dem Candidate: well, if they go get care at an emergency room or after the fact, you're already paying.  It raises costs for everyone.  Universal Healthcare for everyone is the cheaper alternative.  It's also one less bureaucratic step, trying to figure out whos qualified for what care.  So it's actually cheaper to just cover everyone.  It works everywhere else.

Or fuck it just try to get a couple racist votes by saying "yeah, universal healthcare for cornfed whiteboys only, murica".  Whatever floats your boat 

 

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