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I was curious to what peoples would think about the idea if things had played out differently if Catelyn could convince her father/brother to give Harrenhal to one of her younger son, Bran or Rickon, Harrenhal once House Whent when extinct? Since it seems from Robert's Rebellion that the North and Riverlands had grown closer together. 

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I suspect that only king could give Harrenhall to new house. Or Starks would have a claim via their maternal grandmother but final decision will be made by whoever happens to be ruling king or queen.

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Besides Lady Shella Whent (who is still alive), there's another living Whent - Wynafrei, she's Walder Frey's daughter-in-law, married to Danwell.

Prior her marriage, Cat was a Tully, not a Whent, thus, she and Lysa and Edmure, even though their mother used to be a Whent, have less rights to get Harrenhal, than this Wynafrei. Thus, by law, Freys have more rights than Starks to inherite Harrenhal.

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On 7/3/2019 at 3:28 AM, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that only king could give Harrenhall to new house. Or Starks would have a claim via their maternal grandmother but final decision will be made by whoever happens to be ruling king or queen.

I suspect the crown would get involved before letting the largest castle (in the middle of another region) become directly ruled by the LP of another region.

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Posted (edited)

Thought this was gunna be a Sansa thread...;-)

Edited by cgf

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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2019 at 4:53 PM, Megorova said:

Prior her marriage, Cat was a Tully, not a Whent, thus, she and Lysa and Edmure, even though their mother used to be a Whent, have less rights to get Harrenhal, than this Wynafrei. Thus, by law, Freys have more rights than Starks to inherite Harrenhal. 

That doesn't make much sense. The rules of inheritance do not depend on the surnames, but on proximity and primogeniture.

We don't know who was closer to the Whent ruling line: Minissa (Catelyn's mother) or Wynafrei Whent. My money would be on Minissa, because she married Lord Tully, while Wynafrei only managed to wed the eighth son of Lord Frey. In all likelyhood, the Tully claim is far superior to the Frey's.

Although that doesn't mean that there's some other family around Westeros with an even better claim. And in any case, Wynafrei seems to be cursed with the fertility and birth problems that have cursed House Whent in this past generation, so at the end of the day she's unlikely to be a factor in the succession of Harrenhal.

Edited by The hairy bear

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7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

That doesn't make much sense. The rules of inheritance do not depend on the surnames, but on proximity and primogeniture.

We don't know who was closer to the Whent ruling line: Minissa (Catelyn's mother) or Wynafrei Whent. My money would be on Minissa, because she married Lord Tully, while Wynafrei only managed to wed the eighth son of Lord Frey. In all likelyhood, the Tully claim is far superior to the Frey's.

I think that Wynafrei is daughter of Shella and Walter Whent, the original Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal's Tournament in 281.

And that three squires, that attacked Howland Reed, were Raymund Frey (he served to a knight from House Haighs, probably Harys Haigh, whose mother is Perriane Frey), either Geremy Frey or Lame Lothar (squired for Boros Blount), and Merrett Frey (who after the incident with the Kingswood Brotherhood, probably was temporarily sent home, where he became squire of his older brother, Danwell Frey) <- those are my guesses about who were three knights and their squires at Harrenhal.

So, the Frey-knight, that was winning on first day of jousting, and later lost to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, was Danwell Frey, and after that Tournament he married with Wynafrei, because, when he was winning, she probably gave him her favour. And they got married, even though he was Lord Frey's eight son, while she was the only daughter of Lord Whent, because Walder previously was married with Sarya Whent, who, probably, was Shella Whent's sister or first cousin.

It is known that Shella's grandfather was first Lord Whent of Harrenhal. After him the next Lord was Shella's father. Also, it is known, that Shella and Walter Whent are cousins, probably first cousins. It seems that Shella's father was first son of Lord Whent, while the second was father (or even grandfather) of Minisa Whent, and the third was father of Walter and Oswell. Now, either Sarya Whent was Shella's much younger sister, or Sarya was daughter of First Lord Whent's fourth son, while Minisa wasn't sister of either of those two.

1st Lord Whent and then - option 1

[1st son], {2nd son}, (3rd son);

[Shella, Sarya], {Minisa}, (Walter, Oswell),

or 2

[1st son], {2nd son}, (3rd son), "4th son";

[Shella], {Minisa}, (Walter, Oswell), "Sarya",

or 3

[1st son], {2nd son}, (3rd son), "4th son";

[Shella] + (Walter), {son} + wife, (Walter, Oswell), "Sarya";

[four sons] and [Wynafrei] + Danwell Frey, {Minisa} + Hoster Tully, (Oswell/Kingsguard, no children), "no children",

or 4

[1st son], {2nd son}, (3rd son);

[Shella] + (Walter), {son} + wife, (Walter, Oswell), "son" + wife;

[four sons] and [Wynafrei] + Danwell Frey, {Minisa} + Hoster Tully, (Oswell/Kingsguard, no children), "Sarya Whent" + Walder Frey (in this case Wynafrei, Minisa and Sarya were first cousins).

 

Sarya was Walder's fifth wife. Probably they were married between 279 and 281 <- this is based on ages of Walder's children from his fourth wife and his sixth wife. At the time of his marriage with Sarya, Walder was 71-73 years old, but his wife was probably much much younger than him, in her 20s, so she was too young to be Shella Whent's sister.

<- Thus, based on this, option 1 is the least likely.

Based on Arya not thinking anything about her blood-connection to Lady Shella Whent, when Arya was at Harrenhal, I think that they weren't closely bloodrelated. Shella wasn't something like sister of Arya's maternal grandmother, they were more distantly related. And based on Walder Frey not mentioning to Catelyn neither his fourth wife, Sarya Whent, nor his daughter-in-law, Wynafrei Whent, I don't think that either of those two were closely bloodrelated to Cat's mother, Minisa Whent. So, in my opinion, most likely, Minisa wasn't Shella's sister, or Sarya's sister, or even Walter's and Oswell's sister (otherwise we would have been given more info thru Ned's POV, if a Kingsguard Oswell Whent, who was killed at the Tower of Joy, by Ned or his people, was closely bloodrelated to Cat's mother. Or if a Kingsguard Oswell was Walder Frey's brother-in-law (in case if Sarya was Oswell's and Walter's sister), then Walder would have mentioned it to Catelyn, that he is not inclined to trust too much to Starks, because Ned Stark killed his ex-wife's brother.).

<- Based on this, options 2 and 4 are also unlikely.

Then the only remaining option is 3, that Cat's mother, Minisa Whent, was daughter of Sarya Whent's cousin. So, to Catelyn Walder's wife was first cousin twice removed, too distant relation, to be mentioned during his negotiations with Cat, about possible marriage of their children.

If my "calculations" are correct, then Wynafrei has twice more Whent blood than Catelyn, and she is a descendant from the main branch of House Whent. Wynafrei's mother is a daughter of 1st son, and Catelyn's mother is a daughter of 2nd son, and Wynafrei's father is a son of 3rd son of 1st Lord Whent, while Catelyn's father is a Tully. So, even though it has nothing to do with their surnames, Wynafrei still has better claim than Catelyn.

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@Megorova

Nice summary.

Merrett Frey can't be one of the squires, because in his POV's he thinks that "he would be forty in less than three years", meaning that he was born at 262". This would make him 19 the year of the False Spring (281), and Meera says that the three squires "were none older than fifteen".

That doesn't mean his older brother couldn't be the Frey knight. But I don't think that there are many odds of him having married the queen of love and beauty. As I see it, too many issues are weighting against it:

  • The queen of love and beauty would have given her favor to her four brothers or her famous uncle.
  • She wouldn't favor some knight who was "not loved" by the public (None [of the three kinghts] were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree).
  • After the tourney, she wouldn't be predisposed to fall in love with a knight who has been publicly chastised.
  • I'm not sure that an eighth son of the Twins could manage to marry the only daughter of the lord of Harrenhal. It seems Danwell's older brothers got worse marriages: Walder's fourth son marries a Frey cousin, Walder's sixth son Hosteen marries a Hawick,...
  • If she was Shella's only daughter, Wynafrei would be the undisputed heiress of Harrenhal. I can't imagine Walder not trying to push his family's claims, or complaining when the castle was given to Littlefinger.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Merrett Frey can't be one of the squires, because in his POV's he thinks that "he would be forty in less than three years", meaning that he was born at 262". This would make him 19 the year of the False Spring (281), and Meera says that the three squires "were none older than fifteen".

Did Howland Reed checked their IDs? Otherwise, how can we be sure about their ages? We can't. Thus, maybe, they were not no older than 15. Maybe, it was said there just to make that story more dramatic.

10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The queen of love and beauty would have given her favor to her four brothers or her famous uncle.

The whole point of those tournaments for their "queens" is to find a husband, or something like that, not to keep the "crown" in the family.

10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

She wouldn't favor some knight who was "not loved" by the public (None [of the three kinghts] were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree).

One of those three knights was a Frey, and Walder Frey used to be married with Sarya Whent. So, whether the general public, present at Harrenhal, liked or disliked those three knights, the hosters of that Tournament, the Whent family, had to treat that Frey-knight nicely, because he was their kin. Thus, it is still a possibility, that Wynafrei was sort of obligated to give her favour to Danwell, when he asked her. Out of politeness. Or because, after Walder's Whent-wife died, he was very persuasive in his efforts to get another Whent into the Freys' fold, to replace the one that died. 

10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

After the tourney, she wouldn't be predisposed to fall in love with a knight who has been publicly chastised.

Who said, that they loved each other? In those times it was not necessary. Their marriage could be totally political.

10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

If she was Shella's only daughter, Wynafrei would be the undisputed heiress of Harrenhal. I can't imagine Walder not trying to push his family's claims, or complaining when the castle was given to Littlefinger.

Though Harrenhal was taken away from Whents, by the King's order. So, even if Wynafrei was Shella's sole heir, it doesn't matter. Because Whents lost Harrenhal, even before Shella escaped from there. And Wynafrei would have became Shella's sucessor, only after Shella's death. And Shella had already lost Harrenhal, while she was still alive. Thus, her heirs, whoever they are, are not getting anything, even if Shella did died after her escape. And if she is still alive, then it's too early to stake any claims over her property. Not to mention, that that property was confiscated by the King.

10 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure that an eighth son of the Twins could manage to marry the only daughter of the lord of Harrenhal. It seems Danwell's older brothers got worse marriages: Walder's fourth son marries a Frey cousin, Walder's sixth son Hosteen marries a Hawick,...

Danwell married with Wynafrei Whent (who had four older brothers, and thus was far below in line of inheritance), his brother Merrett with Mariya Darry (she was a daughter of the previous Lord Darry, and the current Lord Darry, Raymun, had three older brothers. It seems, that those three and Raymun are Mariya's siblings, so she was at least fifth in line of Darry inheritance, same as Wynafrei was in Whents'). While their two older brothers are married with Bellena Hawick and Betharios of Braavos, and it isn't known, but possible that Bellena had better inheritane claim in her House, than Wynafrei and Mariya had in theirs. And, because Betharios' husband is a spymaster of Frey's family, seems that he intentionally married with a woman from Braavos, to use her knowledge. So, the Freys have different sort of benefits from this marriage, and thus, it didn't mattered, what place in line of inheritance Betharios had in her family in Braavos.

The sole heiress of House Hawick (or at least higher than the fifth) is a better match, than the fifth child, that has four older brothers, each of whom, and any of their possible children, will be in front of that ex-5th heiress. Thus, before Robert's Rebellion, before four male-Whents and three male-Darrys died, Danwell's and Merrett's marriages were significantly less beneficial, than whatever at that time had their older brothers.

Edited by Megorova

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20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Did Howland Reed checked their IDs? Otherwise, how can we be sure about their ages? We can't. Thus, maybe, they were not no older than 15.

15 year old Lyanna facing three 15 year old squires with a tourney sword and making them run away is already extraordinary. But one of them being 19? I just don't find that possible.

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

The whole point of those tournaments for their "queens" is to find a husband, or something like that, not to keep the "crown" in the family.

I'm don't think that this is the case at all. Plenty of married women have been named "queens", including Alysanne, Naerys or Rhaella Targaryen. Many kingsguard knights that are sworn to chastity participate. And in Harrenhal and Ashford, the brothers of the queen competed for the title.

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though Harrenhal was taken away from Whents, by the King's order. So, even if Wynafrei was Shella's sole heir, it doesn't matter. Because Whents lost Harrenhal, even before Shella escaped from there. And Wynafrei would have became Shella's sucessor, only after Shella's death. And Shella had already lost Harrenhal, while she was still alive. Thus, her heirs, whoever they are, are not getting anything, even if Shella did died after her escape. And if she is still alive, then it's too early to stake any claims over her property. Not to mention, that that property was confiscated by the King.

And nevertheless, after the castle had been confiscated by the King, Walder Frey would expect to receive it. Because Wynafrei would be the next in line, and the Freys had been instrumental in the Lannister's victory. And when the king had decided to give the castle to someone else (making him the Frey's overlord in the deal), Walder would have complained noisily.

 

In any case, I'm aware that it is not impossible that Wynafrei is Shella's daughter. I'm just saying that everything would make more sense if she wasn't.

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36 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

15 year old Lyanna facing three 15 year old squires with a tourney sword and making them run away is already extraordinary. But one of them being 19? I just don't find that possible.

Why not? They were bullies, and all bullies are actually cowards and weaklings, that's why they always gang up together, and attack those, that are smaller than them. They chose Howland, because for them he seemed like a perfect target - small, alone, not local, not highborn. And they thought, that no one will see them, or oppose them bulliyng him. But when they were intercepted, furthermore by a highborn girl, that was unafraid of them, and attacked them while shouting at them, and thus drawing attanetion to what was they doing there, they couldn't have attacked her, for many reasons, so they had to flee instead. It's one thing to attack a no one like that frogeater, but it would have been a totally different situation, if they dared to raise their hands against a female and add to that - a highborn Lady. That would have drawn attention to them, and they would have suffered serious repercution, if not sentenced to death for attacking a daughter of The North's ruler. Maybe, they had no idea who she was, but still, she was unafraid to attack them, and they all were cowards, so instead of fighting with her, they escaped. So their age, and her age, and that there was three of them, and they all were bigger than her, is actually irrelevant. She was crazy-brave, wild and loud. They were stupid, but not stupid enough, to not realise, that in a mere moments, after she "joined their company", it will draw to them attention of other people, and they will get in serious trouble, if, when those people will approach the place, where they attacked Howland, those people will see, that they are beating a girl. Thus, they fled.

48 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

And nevertheless, after the castle had been confiscated by the King, Walder Frey would expect to receive it. Because Wynafrei would be the next in line, and the Freys had been instrumental in the Lannister's victory. And when the king had decided to give the castle to someone else (making him the Frey's overlord in the deal), Walder would have complained noisily.

Maybe, he did complained, but we don't know about it, because he didn't shared his complains with someone, who has a POV in the books.

49 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

In any case, I'm aware that it is not impossible that Wynafrei is Shella's daughter. I'm just saying that everything would make more sense if she wasn't.

It's just that Wynafrei is exactly the right age to be Shella's daughter (even though we don't actually know the ages of neither Shella nor Wynafrei). Though, in my opinion, GRRM mentioning that one of those knights was Frey, and who were the others two, and that Lame Lothar and Raymund Frey were sitting at the Red Wedding with people from one of those Houses, is not a coincidence. And that the only known Blount in ASOIAF is Boros, and he's exactly the kind of person, who could be amongst those three knights, that were, as you said, not loved by people present at Harrenhal. But he did became a Kingsguard, so even though he's not exactly a popular guy, still he is good enough as a fighter/knight/defended, to be accepted into Kingsguards. So, he could have been one of those three knights, that were winning in the beginning of Tournament, and later were defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree. And at the time of AGOT, that other guy from a hedgehog house, was serving to Roose Bolton, so he was that link between Boltons and Freys, that brought them together to conspire for the Red Wedding.

I think, that all those characters, and the connection between them, was revealed by GRRM, in span of events of the RW, because those people were also tied together in the past, at the span of events of Harrenhal's Tournament. And because Danwell is a knight, and his age is just right to get married in 280s, and his wife is a Whent, so it's the most likely possibility, that Wynafrei is the original Queen of Love and Beauty of Harrenhal.

Though, I could be wrong with this assumptions. But in this case - where is the Maiden of Harrenhal? What happened to her after 281? And who is Wynafrei, if she is not Shella's and Walter's daughter? :dunno: Though I think, that there is a reason, why GRRM shared with the readers all that info about Freys' guests-friends at their table, that Wynafrei is Danwell's wife, that Danwell is a knight, etc. And convergence of all that information, draws to a conclusion, that Wynafrei, most likely, was that Maiden of Harrenhal. And thus, she, as a daughter of Lady Whent and Lord Whent, had more rights to get Harrenhal, than any of Minisa Whent's childen or grandchildren.

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