Aegon VI as a ruler

[Br16]

20 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

And George's dragons aren't intelligent

I was referring to the plot as intelligent to distinguish it from generic monster movies that rely on cliche. 

20 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

they are nuclear weapons and they should be killed.

GoT ain't about peace and safety. It has to be epic and Dragons realizing their full potential are a big part of that. Could you Imagine the Fallout Series without nukes? Of course the dragons are going to cause a lot of suffering, but so is Euron and the Night King. It's part of the story. 

20 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well, in Martin's world Maesters don't fight dragons they use religion to inspire people to fight for them

And a lot of those people may be valiant knightly folks that end up like Ned, but by dragon fire. Perfect Martin subversion of the old St George trope. 

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Yeah, Daenerys seems to have a Messianic complex, so it will be rather significant if she arrives to Westeros and has to choose between giving up the throne and becoming a hated tyrant and a murderer. Which is why I think Aegon will have to be a good, or at least popular, ruler - and Daenerys' vision also indicates as much.

I think it's fairly well set up from the vision of the Mummer's Dragon, that Daenerys will see him as an impostor.  I think that quite a lot of the Daenerys/Jon storyline from the Show will actually be Daenerys/Aegon in the books.   But, in this case, Aegon will expect his aunt to accept that his claim to the IT is superior to hers, and Daenerys will simply see it as fraudulent.

[Br16]

4 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

But as you say, plan changed after Daenerys hatched dragons - and she still has dragons. And current plan is for Aegon to provide a "bait" for her to come to Westeros, by going "hey, I'm fighting here for our family's legacy while you are chilling in Essos, mind lending a hand?". So him marrying anyone would be stupid - unless he comes to believe Daenerys will not, in fact, be coming to Westeros - at all.

Another thing is that even Strickland mentions that they need the Dany marriage to confirm Aegon's identity/ legitimacy in the eye of the public, or else any ambitious Lord could find a Valyrian looking person from Volantis and Lys and say this is a Targ. 

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, Aldarion said:

But as you say, plan changed after Daenerys hatched dragons - and she still has dragons. And current plan is for Aegon to provide a "bait" for her to come to Westeros, by going "hey, I'm fighting here for our family's legacy while you are chilling in Essos, mind lending a hand?". So him marrying anyone would be stupid - unless he comes to believe Daenerys will not, in fact, be coming to Westeros - at all.

Well, Aegon may hear Daenerys marrying Hizdahr later, even though he is arrested by Barristan now, and decide Daenerys chose to be Queen of Mereen, or may hear about the incident at the fighting pit and her being lost with her dragon. So there is a great chance Aegon may marry someone else after that. 

[Br16]

7 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well, Aegon may hear Daenerys marrying Hizdahr later, even though he is arrested by Barristan now, and decide Daenerys chose to be Queen of Mereen, or may hear about the incident at the fighting pit and her being lost with her dragon. So there is a great chance Aegon may marry someone else after that. 

Another thing is that Aegon was raised to be very traditional. And Daario does brag. This could put him off Dany if he hears about it.

[Aldarion]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 I think it's fairly well set up from the vision of the Mummer's Dragon, that Daenerys will see him as an impostor.  I think that quite a lot of the Daenerys/Jon storyline from the Show will actually be Daenerys/Aegon in the books.   But, in this case, Aegon will expect his aunt to accept that his claim to the IT is superior to hers, and Daenerys will simply see it as fraudulent.

Yes, she does seem to be interpreting the vision that way. As I remember, she merely sees people cheering with cloth dragons; but she interprets it as meaning "mummer's dragon" or "false dragon", where vision could just be showing what is actually happening, with no symbolic significance.

18 minutes ago, Br16 said:

 Another thing is that even Strickland mentions that they need the Dany marriage to confirm Aegon's identity/ legitimacy in the eye of the public, or else any ambitious Lord could find a Valyrian looking person from Volantis and Lys and say this is a Targ. 

True. Which is another problem - Daenerys is used to power, she is used to rule, so she may not be willing to declare him genuine even if he is. OTOH, she also seems to be missing her family, if I remember some of her comments in the books right. So it could go either way.

18 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Well, Aegon may hear Daenerys marrying Hizdahr later, even though he is arrested by Barristan now, and decide Daenerys chose to be Queen of Mereen, or may hear about the incident at the fighting pit and her being lost with her dragon. So there is a great chance Aegon may marry someone else after that. 

Yes, that is what I said - if he believes she has decided to stay in Essos for good, he will likely seek marriage in Westeros. And hearing about her marriage in Essos may well lead him to believe that. Or, as you said, he may come to believe her dead.

11 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Another thing is that Aegon was raised to be very traditional. And Daario does brag. This could put him off Dany if he hears about it.

Agreed.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Br16 said:

We all have our biases, so while I'm not too sure about Aegon, I respect your position and acknowledge that the story could go either way.

However,  Maesters covertly taking out dragons would be a massive disappointment for me. One of the things I like about GoT is that it is sort of like an intelligent Godzilla story, so the Dragons must have their day. Moreover, Martin likes to subvert tropes, and Christianish Maesters and Faith taking out Dragons seems too much like St George and the Dragon for me. My understanding is that in Martin's world, it should be: St George fights showy and hard, but dragon eats him only to be then unexpectedly slain by the Lady. 

In aSoIaF, Jon is St George and dragon all in one. That's because George meticulously laid out parallels for Jon to be like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, who is George's version of St George.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Aegon marrying Daenerys become a plan after Daenerys hatched dragons. Before that Illyrio or Varys never cared about keeping blood pure or something similar, Daenerys wasn't important to their plans about Aegon, they didn't cared about her marrying Khal Drago and dying in Vaes Dothrak. I am sure GC/Illyrio's friends in the Reach *cough Redwynes cough* does have a daughter as Queen for Aegon. 

I think Illyrio considered a marriage initially. He relayed to Tyrion that once he contemplated marrying Dany, but she seemed but a scared, feeble girl at the time, so he wed her to Drogo. Though Illyrio literally says "himself marrying her", at the time Tyrion was still to meet Young Griff and had to figure out by himself who he was. So, of course Illyrio couldn't have said "marry her to Aegon" at the time. So, I do think Illyrio contemplated it, but both Viserys and Dany disappointed him, and he saw Dany solely as a bride-price to get the Dothraki on board.

I also think that Illyrio got his hands on those 3 eggs to gift them to each of the three: Viserys, Dany, Aegon. But well Viserys was a buffoon, Dany a scared girl. And he used them for show (a very costly pricey gift) to wrap the bargain with the Dothraki in an expensive packing.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

But as you say, plan changed after Daenerys hatched dragons - and she still has dragons. And current plan is for Aegon to provide a "bait" for her to come to Westeros, by going "hey, I'm fighting here for our family's legacy while you are chilling in Essos, mind lending a hand?". So him marrying anyone would be stupid - unless he comes to believe Daenerys will not, in fact, be coming to Westeros - at all.

The news that she turned down Quentyn's offer of Dornish spears in Westeros will do that trick I'd say. On top of that, there will also be the news that she might be dead. Even Selmy at Meereen starts to have his doubts whether Dany still lives. Such news about Dany is bound to be spread, especially if Dany goes to Vaes Dothrak first.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

And George's dragons aren't intelligent

According to George they are intelligent creatures. They just don't talk, because their physionomy doesn't allow for it.

[asongofheresy]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think Illyrio considered a marriage initially. He relayed to Tyrion that once he contemplated marrying Dany, but she seemed but a scared, feeble girl at the time, so he wed her to Drogo. Though Illyrio literally says "himself marrying her", at the time Tyrion was still to meet Young Griff and had to figure out by himself who he was. So, of course Illyrio couldn't have said "marry her to Aegon" at the time. So, I do think Illyrio contemplated it, but both Viserys and Dany disappointed him, and he saw Dany solely as a bride-price to get the Dothraki on board.

I also think that Illyrio got his hands on those 3 eggs to gift them to each of the three: Viserys, Dany, Aegon. But well Viserys was a buffoon, Dany a scared girl. And he used them for show (a very costly pricey gift) to wrap the bargain with the Dothraki in an expensive packing.

I think one egg should be kept for Aegon, or maybe candied ginger is an egg, but Illyrio may not believe dragons will hatch and if he really wanted to keep Daenerys for Aegon, killing Viserys was easy since they had no problem dragging him to paranoia by shadow blades, getting rid of Viserys after his failed meeting with Golden Company and presenting Daenerys as a bride for her nephew won't be hard to do, since she does say she could marry him if he lived. 

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I think one egg should be kept for Aegon, or maybe candied ginger is an egg, but Illyrio may not believe dragons will hatch and if he really wanted to keep Daenerys for Aegon, killing Viserys was easy since they had no problem dragging him to paranoia by shadow blades, getting rid of Viserys after his failed meeting with Golden Company and presenting Daenerys as a bride for her nephew won't be hard to do, since she does say she could marry him if he lived. 

If he didn't believe dragons could be hatched from them, and he had no intention in uniting them as three Targs in the eyes of Westeros, he could well have thought to just gift all three. Reminds me of kisses when greeting: we give 1 or 3, never 2. Illyrio is so rich he doesn't bat an eye at 3 ships never returning or all their cargo being sold, etc.

I don't believe Illyrio or Varys ever sent shadow blades after Viserys.

Nor do I think Illyrio wanted to be rid of Viserys, once he realized what sort of young man he was. I don't even believe he wanted Viserys to go off with the Dothraki. Dany was a girl. With two male Targs, she's only important for marriage alliances. But he needed Viserys alive so Drogo would feel bound to repay Viserys with a Dothraki army, eventually. And if Varys and Illyrio knew of the marriage pact between Dorne and Viserys, he would have wanted to keep Viserys around to get the Dornish in as well.

I think he intended to set Viserys up by sending him along with Aegon and the GC. On the one hand Viserys gives credibility to Aegon through association. On the other hand, once Westeros saw Viserys and Aegon, they'd prefer the latter over Viserys, and in that way any questions about him being real or fake would be sidelined.

[nyser1]

Young Griff/Aegon appears to have potential, but:

 

• Spoiler

  • JonCon, his father figure/chief mentor/chief confidant has Grey Scale
• Varys and Illyrio are clearly not trustworthy.
• He has no personal connections in Westeros. He is banking on Varys/Illyrio/Jon Con being able to win people over & people flocking to him simply because of his name.
• He's apparently dead, the body seen by at least a handful of noblemen.
• He has <10,000 soldiers (overwhelming majority being foreigners). Based upon what happened in Mereen 
  Spoiler

  Quentyn Died)

  his actions with the Dornish/Dany may alienate the other.

• Probably other things that are eluding my mind right now.

[Br16]

9 hours ago, nyser1 said:

his actions with the Dornish/Dany may alienate the other.

Good point, perhaps depending on how Doran's thought process may go, he might decide that Quentyn's accident was intentional to keep the Dany/Aegon marriage possible. Especially if Connington underlings continue to make overtures to Dany as consort.

[Aldarion]

9 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Young Griff/Aegon appears to have potential, but:

 

•   Reveal hidden contents

  • JonCon, his father figure/chief mentor/chief confidant has Grey Scale
• Varys and Illyrio are clearly not trustworthy.
• He has no personal connections in Westeros. He is banking on Varys/Illyrio/Jon Con being able to win people over & people flocking to him simply because of his name.
• He's apparently dead, the body seen by at least a handful of noblemen.
• He has <10,000 soldiers (overwhelming majority being foreigners). Based upon what happened in Mereen 
    Reveal hidden contents

  Quentyn Died)

  his actions with the Dornish/Dany may alienate the other.

• Probably other things that are eluding my mind right now.

True. OTOH:

• Varys and Illyrio apparently do want him on the throne, for whatever reason.
• From what I have read of preview chapters, people are moving to join him, meaning that he does have at least some organic support in Westeros. And regardless of his name, fact is that he is the best option right now.
• A lot of people are not happy with Lannister regime, so if he does defeat Tyrell host in the field as planned, we can expect a lot of turncloaksto join him (which is why him landing in Stormlands is significant - remember Stannis' "my lords are inconsistent even in their treasons" line).

Greatest problem, I think, is that he and Dany might come into conflict. And due to her dragons, that is a lethal danger to him - especially considering Wildifre in the capital.

[BalerionTheCat]

Varys and Illyrio have been raising him with Aegon V in mind. I think he will be popular. Loved by the poor, by the Faith, and by more or less all the Lannisters/Cersei enemies. I believe his main purpose for the story is to devoid Daenerys of allies. And be the most unwelcome invader. But of course, she or Euron will kill him.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/4/2019 at 2:37 AM, Aldarion said:

"Future rulers were given their own "practice courts," taught languages, music, history, religion, warfare and swordplay and often sheltered from the wide world in far-flung locales, especially in Britain where the threat of plague/disease was pretty serious. Meaning, apart from the whole "I'm on a boat" thing, Aegon's upbringing isn't that different from any other future king's in our own history. What monarchs did not do with their kids is turn them into street urchins and assume that when they grew up they'd know everything they needed to about governing.".

That "I'm on a boat" thing is a pretty big "aside". Aegon V was regarded as "half a peasant" for traveling around Westeros with Ser Duncan (after initially growing up in Maekar's household), and Rolly Duckfield is not merely a peasant but a fugitive from Westeros who assaulted a noble. He's practically one step up from a street urchin as far as the nobility would view things. Young Griff's only experience with Westerosi nobility is the exiled Jon Connington, and I think Varys wants it that way to separate him from a noble caste Varys himself has little regard for. But the problem is that he's going to have to rule over those same nobles. Varys wants a king for the common people, and that's not what the nobility want.

[Aldarion]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Varys and Illyrio have been raising him with Aegon V in mind. I think he will be popular. Loved by the poor, by the Faith, and by more or less all the Lannisters/Cersei enemies. I believe his main purpose for the story is to devoid Daenerys of allies. And be the most unwelcome invader. But of course, she or Euron will kill him.

Agreed. He seems a deconstruction of Aragorn archetype, much like Oberyn Martell was a deconstruction of an underdog archetype.

56 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

That "I'm on a boat" thing is a pretty big "aside". Aegon V was regarded as "half a peasant" for traveling around Westeros with Ser Duncan (after initially growing up in Maekar's household), and Rolly Duckfield is not merely a peasant but a fugitive from Westeros who assaulted a noble. He's practically one step up from a street urchin as far as the nobility would view things. Young Griff's only experience with Westerosi nobility is the exiled Jon Connington, and I think Varys wants it that way to separate him from a noble caste Varys himself has little regard for. But the problem is that he's going to have to rule over those same nobles. Varys wants a king for the common people, and that's not what the nobility want.

But remember power as shadows on the wall. Power dynamics in Westeros are already changing, with High Sparrow, more organized Faith and Faith Militant. The "noble and the great" can no longer just ignore the commonfolk, which means that Aegon's greater commonality with commonfolk might serve him well. To draw on Byzantine Empire again, populace of Constantinople was highly politically active, and Emperors could not often ignore commoners - they were much more able to ignore the dynatoi than the common people. Reason why nobility dominates in feudal system is because they act as representatives of the people and intersperse themselves between the people and the king (the pyramid of authority). But the moment the people start bypassing them, the pyramid crumbles and their power is done for. I imagine we might be seeing something similar.

Which, of course, will make his possible death by Daenerys even more ironic - he became everything she wanted to be, yet she killed him for a selfish goal.

[Lord Varys]

We can assume that Aegon is eventually going to face problems, but I doubt he'll turn out to make the same kind of mistakes as, say, Robb. Or rather: if his youth is going to influence his decisions it is not going to involve problematic marriage alliances and such. In fact, I think Aegon is going to have basically everything but dragons to become an ideal and great ruler - he'll have the love of the people, the support of the Faith and many lords, a beautiful, fertile queen in Arianne, etc. ... and he will still somehow fuck it up.

A good way to play it could be to have him being unable to bear the pressure - sort of like Aerys II or King Aenys failed at that - and of him being surrounded by people who are going to push him into conflict and civil war when Dany arrives rather than compromise. The crown getting to his head and him being unwilling to back down could also become a strong trait - meaning harsh judgments, treason trials, executions, etc.

Because regardless how things turn out, there will be some lords who are going to side with Dany when she arrives - either because they believe Aegon is fake, because they have issues with him, or because they think he is going to help them defeat the Others. And just as Dany is going to be hurt by the fact that Aegon stole her throne, Aegon will be insulted by the fact that people who helped him win his throne might defect to Dany.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 7/4/2019 at 3:37 AM, Aldarion said:

So, how well do you think will Young Griff / Aegon VI do as a ruler? When you look at it, his upbringing is not that different from heirs in Real Life. To quote an answer from Quora: "Future rulers were given their own "practice courts," taught languages, music, history, religion, warfare and swordplay and often sheltered from the wide world in far-flung locales, especially in Britain where the threat of plague/disease was pretty serious. Meaning, apart from the whole "I'm on a boat" thing, Aegon's upbringing isn't that different from any other future king's in our own history. What monarchs did not do with their kids is turn them into street urchins and assume that when they grew up they'd know everything they needed to about governing.". Now, this is not always entirely true: in Byzantine Empire, some of the best rulers were military leaders who never were groomed for political leadership (Diocletian, Basil I). But even then, military command does teach some management skills, especially during Early Imperial and Middle Byzantine perod when military commanders were also provincial administrators (or the reverse). On the flip side, Daenerys was never taught skills required to rule, and her "practical experience" is in slavering Essos, which is socially, politically and culturally extremely different from Westeros. So to me this indicates that Aegon might, if given opportunity, turn out to be a good ruler, or at least better than Daenerys.

Thoughts?

EDIT: There is also the fact that, like many of better rulers in history - such as already-mentioned Diocletian, Basil I and also Basil II - Aegon seems to favour loyalty and competence over birth. He promotes Duck to Kingsguard because he knows latter to be loyal and unlikely to play kingmaker. We already see this with Stannis promoting Davos to Hand of the King, and to me it is indicative of a good ruler.

Daenerys has the best potential out of any of the possible future leaders.  She is better than Stannis, better than Jon Snow, and better than Cersei.  Aegon, when faced with his first big decision, fucked up.  He goes to Westeros like a beggar instead of on the back of a dragon.  All because of what?  Pride.  Now compared this with the 13 year old Daenerys, who found a way to adjust to the Dothraki life and win their respect.  That is something special.