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Aldarion

Aegon VI as a ruler

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can assume that Aegon is eventually going to face problems, but I doubt he'll turn out to make the same kind of mistakes as, say, Robb. Or rather: if his youth is going to influence his decisions it is not going to involve problematic marriage alliances and such. In fact, I think Aegon is going to have basically everything but dragons to become an ideal and great ruler - he'll have the love of the people, the support of the Faith and many lords, a beautiful, fertile queen in Arianne, etc. ... and he will still somehow fuck it up.

 A good way to play it could be to have him being unable to bear the pressure - sort of like Aerys II or King Aenys failed at that - and of him being surrounded by people who are going to push him into conflict and civil war when Dany arrives rather than compromise. The crown getting to his head and him being unwilling to back down could also become a strong trait - meaning harsh judgments, treason trials, executions, etc.

Because regardless how things turn out, there will be some lords who are going to side with Dany when she arrives - either because they believe Aegon is fake, because they have issues with him, or because they think he is going to help them defeat the Others. And just as Dany is going to be hurt by the fact that Aegon stole her throne, Aegon will be insulted by the fact that people who helped him win his throne might defect to Dany.

At this point, I think it is likely Ser Robert Strong may kill him before Daenerys ever comes. I do hope he will get at least some time to prove himself as a ruler, and that he will become a competent and beloved ruler - which is indeed indicated by the whole "cloth dragon" thing. So I don't think crown will "get to his head", except perhaps in him becoming more prideful. But pride by itself can be quite lethal, even if he does turn out to be an ideal ruler on all other accounts. Dou you think his pride will prevent him from listening to his advisors? Because from what I have seen, he still listens to Jon Con, but only to an extent.

EDIT: That being said, that theory is in doubt, as I think Aegon and ser Barristan are going to meet. Latter's guilt over failing Rhaegar will, I think, be given some conclusion.

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Daenerys has the best potential out of any of the possible future leaders.  She is better than Stannis, better than Jon Snow, and better than Cersei.  Aegon, when faced with his first big decision, fucked up.  He goes to Westeros like a beggar instead of on the back of a dragon.  All because of what?  Pride.  Now compared this with the 13 year old Daenerys, who found a way to adjust to the Dothraki life and win their respect.  That is something special.  

It is not just pride. Tyrion, regardless of his motivations, did raise a good point. Now, I do think Aegon's decision is reckless and too aggressive - and yes, he might loose because of it (cyvasse game) - but it is not wholly illogical. And remember that circumstances are different: Daenerys was sold to Dothraki; she was already accepted as a bride and whether she liked it or not, there was nothing she could do about it; nothing she did would affect it. The only thing she could do was improve her position within those circumstances, and she did. Aegon however is supposed to be courting Daenerys; and he has no idea whether she will accept him or not. So he has decided that he shold bring more to table than just his name and pretty face; which, as I said, is not illogical decision, as he has no way of knowing how much stock Daenerys places on that.

Edited by Aldarion

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Daenerys has the best potential out of any of the possible future leaders.  She is better than Stannis, better than Jon Snow, and better than Cersei.  Aegon, when faced with his first big decision, fucked up.  He goes to Westeros like a beggar instead of on the back of a dragon.  All because of what?  Pride.  Now compared this with the 13 year old Daenerys, who found a way to adjust to the Dothraki life and win their respect.  That is something special.  

Fair assessment, another thing is that while many people like to write off Dany because of Slavers Bay chaos, I personally feel that people forget that she delivered the first knockout blow to the institution of slavery since the dawn of Planetos history. The first time that such a harsh institution was actually challenged in such a massive way by someone who could have profited from slavery. Not even the Braavosi or Westerosi  dared or cared to directly challenge slavery in its home turf. I personally feel that no matter what she does in Westeros, her actions in Slavers bay is an monumental historical moral achievement that not only damaged the main economic locus of the slavers, but will also break the psychological hold of slavery.

In the past, When the Valyrians had dragons they became uber slavers. Thus, Dany is probably the first Dragonlord to resist abusing that power, and to instead use it to crush slavery.

Edited by Br16

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7 hours ago, Br16 said:

Fair assessment, another thing is that while many people like to write off Dany because of Slavers Bay chaos, I personally feel that people forget that she delivered the first knockout blow to the institution of slavery since the dawn of Planetos history. The first time that such a harsh institution was actually challenged in such a massive way by someone who could have profited from slavery. Not even the Braavosi or Westerosi  dared or cared to directly challenge slavery in its home turf. I personally feel that no matter what she does in Westeros, her actions in Slavers bay is an monumental historical moral achievement that not only damaged the main economic locus of the slavers, but will also break the psychological hold of slavery.

 In the past, When the Valyrians had dragons they became uber slavers. Thus, Dany is probably the first Dragonlord to resist abusing that power, and to instead use it to crush slavery.

She did not deliver any knockout blow. It is far more likely that her actions with that regard will end up like Spartacus' rebellion: a monumental historical event without any real significance.

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35 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

She did not deliver any knockout blow. It is far more likely that her actions with that regard will end up like Spartacus' rebellion: a monumental historical event without any real significance.

Spartacus didn't have dragons. He was fighting from a position of weakness while Dany's case is more like European warships using superior cannons to end Barbary corsair slavery. Moreover, this is the first time in thousands of years slavers bay has been wrecked like this. At the very least, Unsullied production is finished with the death and dispoilation of so many professional Astaphori wise masters with the training know how.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Aldarion said:

At this point, I think it is likely Ser Robert Strong may kill him before Daenerys ever comes.

This is my bet as well, a very GRRM ending for him.

Edited by Br16

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3 hours ago, Br16 said:

 Spartacus didn't have dragons. He was fighting from a position of weakness while Dany's case is more like European warships using superior cannons to end Barbary corsair slavery. Moreover, this is the first time in thousands of years slavers bay has been wrecked like this. At the very least, Unsullied production is finished with the death and dispoilation of so many professional Astaphori wise masters with the training know how.

Dragons cannot change people's minds. Yes, as long as dragons are there, it will be fine (or not: everybody is murdering each other anyway). But when she leaves, slavery will return. There are no ways around it: to destroy slavery, you have to destroy its economic and cultural underpinnings. For Daenerys to achieve that, it would require generations of rulers who will 1) have her ideals, 2) have her support, 3) have her dragons. European warships did not end Barbary coast slavery: they merely constrained Barbary piracy, which ended for good with French occupation of Algeria, and in general European occupation of North Africa. Reason for this was because Barbary pirates were not actually pirates at all, but rather privateers: they operated with state support.

In a way, Aegon is actually smarter than Daenerys, as he is not trying to change several thousand years of civilization. For Daenerys to actually end slavery in Slaver's bay, she would have to: 1) conquer the entire Slaver's Bay, 2) ensure multiple generations of anti-slavery rulers, 3) ensure that those rulers are not overthrown. Can she do that? Does she have any plans to do that?

3 hours ago, Br16 said:

This is my bet as well, a very GRRM ending for him.

Agreed. Question is, when it will happen?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Dragons cannot change people's minds. Yes, as long as dragons are there, it will be fine

The Red Priests will help ensure it, especially as Dany is likely to dragonfire Volantis/ support slave revolt soon as revenge for the fleet they sent.

13 hours ago, Aldarion said:

 Agreed. Question is, when it will happen?

I believe Aegon will sneak attack a Cersei held but divided Kings Landing with Varys help, and lose to Robert Strong while barging into Red Keep.

13 hours ago, Aldarion said:

European warships did not end Barbary coast slavery: they merely constrained Barbary piracy, which ended for good with French occupation of

They certainly did, the rest was just mopping up work. Moreover, she does occupy Meereen and can easily wreck Yunkai, Ghis, Volantis slaver elite once her control of dragons is complete. The Red Priests with Dany support can become more influential than ever and help hearld the growth and solidification of abolitionism in Essos.

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Br16 said:

 The Red Priests will help ensure it, especially as Dany is likely to dragonfire Volantis/ support slave revolt soon as revenge for the fleet they sent.

But unless economic and social conditions change significantly, anything she does will not last.

Quote

I believe Aegon will sneak attack a Cersei held but divided Kings Landing with Varys help, and lose to Robert Strong while barging into Red Keep.

Yeah, I definitely can see that happening. Another possibility is that he will take King's Landing, hold it when Daenerys arrives, but will be attacked by Euron and Cersei when she leaves for the North and that is when Robert Strong kills him.

Quote

They certainly did, the rest was just mopping up work. Moreover, she does occupy Meereen and can easily wreck Yunkai, Ghis, Volantis slaver elite once her control of dragons is complete. The Red Priests with Dany support can become more influential than ever and help hearld the growth and solidification of abolitionism in Essos.

Slavery =/= piracy. And in fact, French occupied Algeirs precisely because they saw it as the only way to end pirate raids.

Even if she wrecks slaver elite, it will not matter much unless she manages to introduce alternative economic model, and alternative culture/mentality. And that takes time.

Edited by Aldarion

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She never intended it, but Dany has sparked off a social revolution which may well finish off slavery in Essos.  Volantis, the regional superpower, seems to be on the brink of a religious and servile revolt.  The Armada to Meereen is the last roll of the dice for the Old Blood.

But, abolishing slavery won't, of itself, prevent tyranny and civil war

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21 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Dragons cannot change people's minds. Yes, as long as dragons are there, it will be fine (or not: everybody is murdering each other anyway). But when she leaves, slavery will return. There are no ways around it: to destroy slavery, you have to destroy its economic and cultural underpinnings. For Daenerys to achieve that, it would require generations of rulers who will 1) have her ideals, 2) have her support, 3) have her dragons. European warships did not end Barbary coast slavery: they merely constrained Barbary piracy, which ended for good with French occupation of Algeria, and in general European occupation of North Africa. Reason for this was because Barbary pirates were not actually pirates at all, but rather privateers: they operated with state support.

In a way, Aegon is actually smarter than Daenerys, as he is not trying to change several thousand years of civilization. For Daenerys to actually end slavery in Slaver's bay, she would have to: 1) conquer the entire Slaver's Bay, 2) ensure multiple generations of anti-slavery rulers, 3) ensure that those rulers are not overthrown. Can she do that? Does she have any plans to do that?

Agreed. Question is, when it will happen?

I'm glad Lincoln and the North didn't feel the same as you do.  If they had, slavery might still be going on in the South.  Force of arms can end slavery.  It did in the South.  Sherman marched his troops and wreaked havoc, gave the south a beating, took the war straight to its people.  He brought the Hell of war down on the south.  And it worked.  Bent those railroads into hairpins.  Burned one of the capital cities of slavery.  That's what has to be done.  The slavers must be broken.  It is the most worthwhile of endeavors.  I cannot think of a greater cause.  And the fact that Aegon turned away from it will likely bite him in the bum.  

Convincing people isn't the answer.  Beating the crap out of them, killing those who would fight to continue slavery, beating them down good, and knocking them out for good is the way to go.  A soft approach is not the answer because the slavers are evil people who greatly profit from the slave trade.  There is nothing Daenerys can give them that would replace the easy profits of slavery.  The masters will either have to accept that this is now a changed world in which they have lost their status as owners of men and will now have to earn their own wages or they have to die.  Change or die.  

The situation in Essos differ from that of the South in one very important thing.  The slaves are the majority in Essos.  That will make the transition easier.  All of the slavers can be slaughtered.  Those who refuse to accept the ending of slavery will have to be slaughtered if they continue to oppose.  That is easy because their former slaves hold the skills, the muscle, and numbers in Essos.  

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On 7/5/2019 at 10:00 AM, sweetsunray said:

In aSoIaF, Jon is St George and dragon all in one. That's because George meticulously laid out parallels for Jon to be like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, who is George's version of St George.

I don't think Jon is coming back.  There is no need for Jon to remain in the story because Aegon is here.  Aegon is the potential love interests for the main character, Daenerys Targaryen.  

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3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don't think Jon is coming back.  There is no need for Jon to remain in the story because Aegon is here.  Aegon is the potential love interests for the main character, Daenerys Targaryen.  

I agree. However, I was kind of looking forward to a Jon vs NK boss fight.

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On 7/4/2019 at 12:48 PM, Jova Snow said:

I expect him to be a good ruler, but I anticipate how his upbringing in the Mother Rhoyne and the ruins of it, combined with Orphans Yandry and Ysilla, affected his views on dragons and Targaryens/Valyrians. Not only that but Aegon grew up as the sole prince for years without Varys or Illyrio thinking Viserys and Daenerys are important for Aegon's legitimacy, until Daenerys hatched dragons and suddenly it was Aegon who had to go to her, and convince her to take IT with him. Bullshit, Daenerys received no proper education as we learn, unlike Aegon who was trained as king. If dragons didn't hatched Daenerys will not be relevant to Aegon's party even as a Queen Consort, and she wasn't because they married her of to Dothraki. 

Birth right and fate are important elements in fantasy.  If the real Aegon had not died, perhaps young Griff would have grown up in Flea Bottom.  If Mance and Lyanna had not screwed around, Jon would never have been born and if he had not been looked upon as the bastard of a nobleman, he would have been flogged for assaulting his superior officer.  

The best education is experience and Daenerys, for that world, has the equivalent of a doctorate because (1) she can read, (2) she can write, (3) she can speak multiple languages, and (4) she is well-traveled (unlike some characters who have never left the north).  Young Griff received education from what, a half-maester?  His teacher was a Citadel flunky!  Nanny flunked out of septa school.  Who taught him leadership?  The idiot who could have stopped the rebellion but was too soft to burn down Robert's allies.  Aegon has been poorly prepared.  Aerys should have executed Jon Connington for failure to do his job.  

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4 minutes ago, Br16 said:

I agree. However, I was kind of looking forward to a Jon vs NK boss fight.

Aegon might be a better match for the NK.  Jon, if anything, is likely to be the NK 2.0, if he comes back.  If.

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Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Aegon might be a better match for the NK.  Jon, if anything, is likely to be the NK 2.0, if he comes back.  If.

Jon as NK II, now that is a plot twist and perfect GRRM tragedy.

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Just now, Br16 said:

Jon as NK II, now that is a plot twist and perfect GRRM tragedy.

It would.  After all, the NK was a Stark.  

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It would.  After all, the NK was a Stark.  

A Winter King indeed.

Edited by Br16

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Just now, Br16 said:

A winter king indeed.

They were the kings of winter.  It may be their time to shine while the winter holds the lands in its grips and that reign of ice will end with spring and the return of life.  

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Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

They were the kings of winter.  It may be their time to shine while the winter holds the lands in its grips and that reign of ice will end with spring and the return of life.  

All this time so many were rooting for them, only for them to reveal themselves as icy devils. PERFECT GRRM!

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22 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I'm glad Lincoln and the North didn't feel the same as you do.  If they had, slavery might still be going on in the South.  Force of arms can end slavery.  It did in the South.  Sherman marched his troops and wreaked havoc, gave the south a beating, took the war straight to its people.  He brought the Hell of war down on the south.  And it worked.  Bent those railroads into hairpins.  Burned one of the capital cities of slavery.  That's what has to be done.  The slavers must be broken.  It is the most worthwhile of endeavors.  I cannot think of a greater cause.  And the fact that Aegon turned away from it will likely bite him in the bum.  

Convincing people isn't the answer.  Beating the crap out of them, killing those who would fight to continue slavery, beating them down good, and knocking them out for good is the way to go.  A soft approach is not the answer because the slavers are evil people who greatly profit from the slave trade.  There is nothing Daenerys can give them that would replace the easy profits of slavery.  The masters will either have to accept that this is now a changed world in which they have lost their status as owners of men and will now have to earn their own wages or they have to die.  Change or die.  

The situation in Essos differ from that of the South in one very important thing.  The slaves are the majority in Essos.  That will make the transition easier.  All of the slavers can be slaughtered.  Those who refuse to accept the ending of slavery will have to be slaughtered if they continue to oppose.  That is easy because their former slaves hold the skills, the muscle, and numbers in Essos.  

It appears that you may be correct about US, for one reason - cotton gin. Basically, slavery was boosted by it; if it weren't for that one invention, slavery was on its way out. But that does not affect my original point at all: southern states were a minority in the US, and as long as North would not a) tolerate slavery, and b) tolerate southern independence, slavery could not continue (and if they did, all it would take was a good cotton-picking machine to end it). But North has had long tradition of free workforce and lack of slavery. Who will prevent return to slavery in Essos, once Daenerys is gone? Slavery does not appear out of nowhere, and it does not disappear for no reason either. And Slaver's Bay is Slaver's bay - entire area full of slaveowning cities. Even if Daenerys goes "fire and blood" on every single one of them, geographical spread of slavery there exposes deeper socioeconomic / sociocultural forces at work, which means that slavery will return, unless Daenerys chooses to stay in Essos in order to ensure it does not.

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don't think Jon is coming back.  There is no need for Jon to remain in the story because Aegon is here.  Aegon is the potential love interests for the main character, Daenerys Targaryen.  

I hope so. OTOH, if Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he still could be coming back - "a song of ice and fire". Even if he does come back, I do not think he will be love interest for Daenerys.

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