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Aldarion

Aegon VI as a ruler

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17 hours ago, SeanF said:

She never intended it, but Dany has sparked off a social revolution which may well finish off slavery in Essos.  Volantis, the regional superpower, seems to be on the brink of a religious and servile revolt.  The Armada to Meereen is the last roll of the dice for the Old Blood.

But, abolishing slavery won't, of itself, prevent tyranny and civil war

True, but it is a start towards progress.  Or would you rather people sit on their arses and watch the Ghiscari continue to practice slavery because of the excuse that ending slavery isn't going to solve every social inequality in the world.  Look, just because the abolition of slavery won't solve every human misery is a poor reason to not do anything about it.  It reflects poorly on Westeros because they sat on their fat bums when they should have been fighting against slavery instead of fighting among themselves for the stupidest of reasons.  I look down on Catelyn's decision to arrest a Lannister to get revenge for Bran.  I look down on Jon's decision to put the Night's Watch into an awkward position just so he can rescue Arya.  I applaud Dany for her efforts in helping the slaves become free.  

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2 hours ago, Andrew Yang for President said:

True, but it is a start towards progress.  Or would you rather people sit on their arses and watch the Ghiscari continue to practice slavery because of the excuse that ending slavery isn't going to solve every social inequality in the world.  Look, just because the abolition of slavery won't solve every human misery is a poor reason to not do anything about it.  It reflects poorly on Westeros because they sat on their fat bums when they should have been fighting against slavery instead of fighting among themselves for the stupidest of reasons.  I look down on Catelyn's decision to arrest a Lannister to get revenge for Bran.  I look down on Jon's decision to put the Night's Watch into an awkward position just so he can rescue Arya.  I applaud Dany for her efforts in helping the slaves become free.  

1) You are using modern-day morals for medieval world.

2) Slavery isn't that easy to end.

3) Westeros cannot fight against slavery anywhere. They are medieval society, not Roman Empire; do you really think they have logistical capabilities required for serious force projection all the way out to the Slaver's Bay?

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17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The situation in Essos differ from that of the South in one very important thing.  The slaves are the majority in Essos.  That will make the transition easier

It is indeed an important thing. In the US, the legacy of racism casts a vast shadow, even with emancipation, the Caucasian majority could and did use their weight to discriminate against minorities in all areas of life. 

However, the Slavers of the various trading cities hold power with nothing but the perceived prestige of their bloodline. The slaves are (as you say) not a discriminated minority but a multiethnic supramajority. Even the Slaver armies are made up of slaves. All it takes is dragonfiring behind the Black Walls of Volantis and the victory outside Meereen for their illusion of power to shatter. And then everyone could go their own way as they've done before they were enslaved. It is also likely that the Dothraki will follow Dany ( cos Drogon), thus bringing the largest land based raiders and slavers out of the picture. Sea based pirate slavers will also likely cease since their are no longer Wise Masters to give them cash on demand for captives.

I feel that once the battles are over, the transition will be smooth like you say.

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17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The best education is experience and Daenerys, for that world, has the equivalent of a doctorate because (1) she can read, (2) she can write, (3) she can speak multiple languages, and (4) she is well-traveled (unlike some characters who have never left the north).  Young Griff received education from what, a half-maester?  His teacher was a Citadel flunky!  Nanny flunked out of septa school.  Who taught him leadership?  The idiot who could have stopped the rebellion but was too soft to burn down Robert's allies.  Aegon has been poorly prepared.  Aerys should have executed Jon Connington for failure to do his job.  

Good point, street smart is more important than book smart in their game. Being naive costs lives and wrecks kingdoms. Dany is unique in that her inherent dragon ruthlessness had not dulled her broad idealism and compassion. Once this harsh/gentle combination stabilizes, it could be a perfect balance.

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3 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Westeros cannot fight against slavery anywhere. They are medieval society, not Roman Empire; do you really think they have logistical capabilities required for serious force projection all the way out to the Slaver's Bay?

The power projection of a feudal society is weak, that much is true. 

But the Westerorsi have money. And given the similarity of Faith of the Seven to Medieval Catholicism, we could reasonably expect good deeds to be something people/nobles would do to get to the Seven Heavens. 

Thus, as ransoming those captured to be slaves is a work of mercy, where's Westerors' charity ransome fund?

Moreover, fighting for justice is an extension of chilvary. So if all Lords could simply pool some money together, they could easily hire Braavosi sellsails/ Faceless men to disrupt slaver ships.

In the end, they simply weren't trying at all.

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23 minutes ago, Br16 said:

 The power projection of a feudal society is weak, that much is true. 

But the Westerorsi have money. And given the similarity of Faith of the Seven to Medieval Catholicism, we could reasonably expect good deeds to be something people/nobles would do to get to the Seven Heavens. 

Thus, as ransoming those captured to be slaves is a work of mercy, where's Westerors' charity ransome fund?

Moreover, fighting for justice is an extension of chilvary. So if all Lords could simply pool some money together, they could easily hire Braavosi sellsails/ Faceless men to disrupt slaver ships.

In the end, they simply weren't trying at all.

Ransom requires two. Slavers would not accept it - their economy is based on slavery and they know it. And besides, it is not their duty. You fix your home first.

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22 hours ago, Br16 said:

I agree. However, I was kind of looking forward to a Jon vs NK boss fight.

Bunch of wishful thinking and based on weird reasoning.

  • There's no NK in aSoIaF, and therefore no Jon vs NK boss fight planned anyway
  • Jon's love interest is set up to be Val (slow burn set up), so Aegon's arrival in the Stormlands is irrelevant
  • Dany's sole hint of having a love interest in Jon (which very well may never be requieted) is the blue rose at the Wall in the HotU vision. Meanwhile Aegon's symbolic feature is tied to "Slayer of Lies". Obviously two very different storylines and roles to play at least from Dany's POV.
  • Aegon knows shit about Others and it's not likely to be part of his arc, except for ending up as carbon fuel to forge a new VS sword
  • There are hints that
    • Dany will not have control over 3 dragons, or that they even will all remain at her side of any conflict
    • The dragons may be a WMD against humans, but much less so against the Others: not-so GQ Alysanne's dragon refused to fly across the Wall.
    • So, it requires someone experienced and having the Others foremost in their mind as enemy to push them back
  • The dragon has 3 heads, not 2, not 1 - but three

So, the reasoning for "now that Aegon appeared, Jon can stay dead" is seriously flawed.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Br16 said:

Good point, street smart is more important than book smart in their game. Being naive costs lives and wrecks kingdoms. Dany is unique in that her inherent dragon ruthlessness had not dulled her broad idealism and compassion. Once this harsh/gentle combination stabilizes, it could be a perfect balance.

Not a good point whatsoever, and paradoxal.

Aegon speaks as many languages. His half-maester if you pay particular attention to him in Tyrion's POV can teach math, languages, history as well as Tyrion's own house maesters. It wasn't poor skill that made the half-maester a half-maester, but something else. On top of that Haldon is highlighted to be a rationalist, relying on reason rather than the magical, and thus certainly not kicked out of the Citadel for similar reasons as Qyburn was. Imo, Haldon is a woman, and she was discovered and hence turned out of the Citadel and never allowed to wear a chain. But Haldon's teachings are some of the highest and most learned we've seen in the series so far. Guess how street smart Haldon had to be to stay long enough inside the Citadel, learning geometry, that many languages, cyvasse, and medicine for several years, before finally her gender secret was discovered. Even if not a woman, Haldon is clearly highly learned, in Tyrion's POV amongst the best of the maesters he ever encountered when it comes to learning, but also must have some street smart in order to survive outside of a sheltered castle, in Essos, and be welcomed amically by rowdy men of the GC calling him "cunt".

The same is true for Septa Lemore. She is obviously someone who loves the faith, with her soul and heart. And her having birthed a child, and surviving in Essos makes her far wiser and street smart than Septa Mordane ever was.

Meanwhile, JonCon lived to learn from his "chivalrous" mistake. In fact, it's often argued that JonCon might be too ruthless now because of it, especially since he's under severe time constraints.

And his knight was born from smallfolk, helping Aegon having a realistic expectation and insight of what makes soldiers tick.

So, Aegon had teachers who are devoted to their topics of leaning, but far more street smart than their counterparts in Westeros who didn't "flunk". By keeping him away from Essosi nobles, they managed to culture him more towards Westerosi thinking. By raising him to hide his identity he did grow up knowing how to make a floppy hat with his own hands. So, we can expect him to know how to talk with smallfolk. But he was also aware enough of his identity to enable him to dare take command. The GC's response makes clear he can talk the soldier language too. No, I don't think Aegon being naive is a valid argument, for I don't think he's naive, beyond the natural naivity of youth.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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It seems rather clear to me how the slavery issue is going to be resolved permanently. The slavers will be all killed. And those who want to abandon their slavery ways will have to accompany Daenerys to Westeros. The cities in Slaver's Bay will be destroyed, Qarth will be destroyed, too, and the Free Cities who practice slavery will become part of Dany's empire - they will no longer govern themselves.

We see this foreshadowed with Volantis already - it is place where slaves who are devout followers of a religion whose leader had proclaimed Daenerys a divine savior. These people are not just going to topple the Old Blood and their other masters, they will follow Dany to hell and back.

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As to the slavery question: imo that will be Dany's true legacy, her major disruption of slavery.

So far she has taken out several cities that serve as slave markets and slave training centers - she tackled the middle man who makes the most out of selling slaves. Their army outside Meereen are laughable, slaves walking on sticks, waving plumes and having to walk in formation bound by chains. She's on her way to Vaes Dothrak, where in some way she will manage the majority of Dothraki follow her, including across the Narrow Sea. The Dothraki and Free City pirates are the slave catchers. Getting the Dothraki to follow and abandon enslavement disrupts the capture of people to be enslaved big time. Myr, Lys, Tyrosh and Qarth are mostly slave buyers, though their pirates enslave people too. After Meereen and the "turning of the Dothraki" efforts will most likely turn on Volantis, one of the last major cities that trains slaves and sells them. With several of the biggest sellsword companies, a majority of Dothraki, a fleet of Ironborn reavers and dragons Volantis will fall. Myr, Lys and Tyrosh will know they'd be next on the list. These cities rely heavily on sellsword companies for protection and wars. There are numerous sellsword companies, but most are no bigger than a hundred (more comparable to the Bloody Mummers). The biggest company is off in Westeros. Daario's, Plum's and the Tattered Prince's are of the bigger kind. Meanwhile Braavos will have it known in Essos that they're backing Stannis for the IT and not Tommen, so some companies might seek out the North. And while the Tyroshi and Lyseni may have pirates that enslave people, they're no match against the Ironborn. And then we have the bastard of Driftmark also trying to make waves at the Stepstones. If Myr, Lys and Tyrosh are smart, and I think they are, they will send envoys to make a deal with Dany - they'll free their slaves (Pentoshi style) and in return she will not attack them. Qarth will have to follow suit, for they don't have slave catchers themselves at all.

Without slave catchers and without slave training, there simply ceases to be a market. The Dothraki won't be returning any time soon. Slaver's Bay is pretty much burned and ruined. It is entirely possible that some people in some future time may decide to enslave people again, but not until a few generations.

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On 7/5/2019 at 7:56 AM, Br16 said:

I was referring to the plot as intelligent to distinguish it from generic monster movies that rely on cliche. 

GoT ain't about peace and safety. It has to be epic and Dragons realizing their full potential are a big part of that. Could you Imagine the Fallout Series without nukes? Of course the dragons are going to cause a lot of suffering, but so is Euron and the Night King. It's part of the story. 

And a lot of those people may be valiant knightly folks that end up like Ned, but by dragon fire. Perfect Martin subversion of the old St George trope. 

i think you make a grave error by claiming to know what "got is about", and by projecting your own beliefs of what the story should be about, you put filters that distorts the story as the author puts it to us though his books.

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7 hours ago, BlueNightzx said:

i think you make a grave error by claiming to know what "got is about", and by projecting your own beliefs of what the story should be about, you put filters that distorts the story as the author puts it to us though his books.

So what do you think it's about? 

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14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Bunch of wishful thinking and based on weird reasoning.

I disagree, there is no show Night King in the books, but the show does have GRRM's consultation.Thus, an Other leader has to emerge in TWOW mirroring him to lead the wights in order to forward the plot.As the book series remains in part on the drawing board, and so little has been established about the Others so far, it is possible a lot of the show plot may, to some degree, hint at certain elements of TWOW despite the large book/show plot simplification/differences.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Guess how street smart Haldon had to be to stay long enough inside the Citadel, learning geometry, that many languages, cyvasse, and medicine for several years,

All those academic topics are textbook definition of book smart to me, and the Citadel is Ivory tower not the BraveCompanions. Qyburn, on the other hand, would be considered both book smart and street smart, a frighteningly powerful and realpolitik-useful combo.

Moreover, the GC is actually rather tame by Essosi standards, and they always had Varys/Illyrio's sincere protection.

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Imo, Haldon is a woman, and she was discovered 

Perhaps an intersex person?

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The same is true for Septa Lemore. She is obviously someone who loves the faith, with her soul and heart. And her having birthed a child, and surviving in Essos makes her far wiser and street smart than Septa Mordane ever was.

I feel she might be a rather tragic character. Perhaps she was a Septa who got violated during Robert's Rebellion, was victim blamed, and Varys gave her an out.

Nevertheless, is she, being sincerely faithful, Machiavellian enough to train Aegon on the importance of appearing pious rather than actually being pious?

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Meanwhile, JonCon lived to learn from his "chivalrous" mistake. In fact, it's often argued that JonCon might be too ruthless now because of it, especially since he's under severe time constraints.

The danger is his mental deterioration. Right now, JonCon is probably the perfect combination between respectability and ruthlessness. But the progress of his medical condition is a big wild card. What if he infects someone?

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

No, I don't think Aegon being naive is a valid argument, for I don't think he's naive, beyond the natural naivity of youth.

To each his own I suppose.  To be street smart is to know how to deal with thugs, ruthless rogues and bad neighborhoods ( such as Vargo, Slavers or Dothraki). Aegon has lived a relatively poor but safe/stable childhood. He may not be naive by our standards, but I feel he certainly is in the WOIAF.

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Br16 said:

I disagree, there is no show Night King in the books, but the show does have GRRM's consultation.Thus, an Other leader has to emerge in TWOW mirroring him to lead the wights in order to forward the plot.As the book series remains in part on the drawing board, and so little has been established about the Others so far, it is possible a lot of the show plot may, to some degree, hint at certain elements of TWOW despite the large book/show plot simplification/differences.

My answer to this is ... https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2019/05/28/the-plutonian-others

Regardless, we are on the book forum, not the show forum, and the show is not recognized as canon. Which is why I gave you the link to the blog version instead of the redacted version of the essay I posted in the forum 2 months ago. You don't need to read the whole essay, but it starts with the differences that are quite fundamental: the NK vs N'sK, speech

6 hours ago, Br16 said:

All those academic topics are textbook definition of book smart to me, and the Citadel is Ivory tower not the BraveCompanions. Qyburn, on the other hand, would be considered both book smart and street smart, a frighteningly powerful and realpolitik-useful combo.

Of course those topics are book smart. Haldon is also street smart, since he/she neither lives in the Citadel nor a castle. But you can't agree with praising Dany's knowledge of languages and then snub your nose at Haldon's and Aegon's knowledge of the same amount of languages. And culturally Westeros has been rather static (in comparison to our own). Knowing history teaches something about the present, especially about feudal culture and as political system. Dany not reading much of the histories she does have is seen as a flaw for her. And of course we have the saying "if you don't know your history, you're bound to make the same mistakes". You don't think George isn't working that in for her arc? And if being book smart is so awful, then why do readers have such respect for Tyrion? Then why would readers hope for Tyrion to join her team? Because Dany lacks book-smart and she's not going to learn it from the books she was given, since she read some of it only cursory, so book-smart character is added to her team to make up for her lack of it. And suddenly it's bad that Aegon has a book smart maester in his team?

6 hours ago, Br16 said:

Moreover, the GC is actually rather tame by Essosi standards, and they always had Varys/Illyrio's sincere protection.

Aegon isn't intended to rule Essos, but Westeros. So, street smart with GC is street smart with Westeros. Aegon was as protected as Aegon V as a kid tramping about with Dunk in Westeros. It's not a bad thing for a kid to grow up with some protection. Kids who grow up without any shelter and protection can grow up distrusting everyone (Viserys case in point).

6 hours ago, Br16 said:

Nevertheless, is she, being sincerely faithful, Machiavellian enough to train Aegon on the importance of appearing pious rather than actually being pious?

When she speaks about the Faith, she sounds a believer. And her love for swimming suggests a Dornish influence. I think George sort of uses her to point out that true faith has little to do with being "celibate pious". Is a married Anglican preacher less pious than a Catholic celibate priest?

6 hours ago, Br16 said:

To be street smart is to know how to deal with thugs, ruthless rogues and bad neighborhoods ( such as Vargo, Slavers or Dothraki). Aegon has lived a relatively poor but safe/stable childhood. He may not be naive by our standards, but I feel he certainly is in the WOIAF.

Well, those normally do not live in Westeros. Isn't one of Dany's main foreseeable issue that she's entrenched and allied with cultures that are nothing like Westeros? There are no slavers in Westeros, let alone slaver culture (I'm not including Ironborn thrall culture, which I do regard as a form of slavery). The Dothraki do not even compare to the free folk or mountain clans of the Vale. The latter do not exactly raze and destroy cities, let alone out of an ideological anti-city belief.

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course those topics are book smart. Haldon is also street smart, since he/she neither lives in the Citadel nor a castle.

I don't think this alone makes him street smart or street smart enough for the coming chaos. As evil as Qyburn is, he's the type of Citadel exile that flourishes in this mess.

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Aegon isn't intended to rule Essos, but Westeros. So, street smart with GC is street smart with Westeros.

Problem is Westeros is not normal Westeros right now, with more than the normal amount of violence, intrigue and sorcery. 

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

When she speaks about the Faith, she sounds a believer. And her love for swimming suggests a Dornish influence. I think George sort of uses her to point out that true faith has little to do with being "celibate pious". Is a married Anglican preacher less pious than a Catholic celibate priest?

Wasn't talking about celibacy. A Machiavellian leader merely appears merciful and pious but secretly does whatever needs to be done to protect his state with no guilt whatsoever. Haldon and Septa Lemore are probably not going to teach him that. 

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, those normally do not live in Westeros.

Dany might bring them over. Plus, can Aegon deal with a man like Euron?

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Regardless, we are on the book forum, not the show forum, and the show is not recognized as canon.

Precisely. Which is why I suspect (especially since the show has overtaken the books) that George may have used the show to test some prototype plot/character elements in order to make sure the climatic and critical last two books are perfect. For example, will mad Dany anger my fanbase? If so, disown prototype ending and tweak more etc.

Until the last two books finally come out, we're reduced to theorizing/speculating with whatever clues we have. And since the show is paying him, it might prove some insight into the mind which is crafting the last two books.

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You don't need to read the whole essay

Nice blog, I'll enjoy reading all of it- deserves that much for all the obvious effort. Why don't you post the link in your profile? 

Edited by Br16

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Posted (edited)

So, basically you think that since there are etremely disturbing narcissists and psychopaths who will use anything for power (Cersei, Euron) in the political arena that only another psychopath or machiavelist who has no morals whatsoever is necessary to be a good ruler of Westeros? If so, then we entirely disagree. I do not support the belief that only psychopaths and machiavelists make for good rulers. Nor should we expect only one character to solve it all by him or herself. 

Robert Strong can no doubt be killed by fire. Wildfire will do I guess.

As for Qyburn: he's more like a dr Frankenstein sorcerer, than a wizard shooting spell fireballs.

Euron will be a big bad villain, but I don't see him gunning for KL soon. I suspect he will manage to acquire a dragon. I also think that him and his VS armor will make him too sure he's invincible and that will be his downfall eventually.

Anyhow, I do not believe Aegon will survive the series. I think he'll end up killed by Dany herself. This is not to Aegon's discredit.

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

Dany might bring them over. Plus, can Aegon deal with a man like Euron?

Yes, she will bring them over. But what does that have to do with the argument on how Aegon was raised to rule Westeros? None. Dany bringing them over does not reflect badly on Aegon, but on Dany.

1 hour ago, Br16 said:

Which is why I suspect (especially since the show has overtaken the books) that George may have used the show to test some prototype plot/character elements in order to make sure the climatic and critical last two books are perfect. For example, will mad Dany anger my fanbase? If so, disown prototype ending and tweak more etc.

This is an argument you often see some people make in the show-forum who don't have a clue how George writes. My advice is to thoroughly reread the series, read his interviews on how he writes, read his introductions in Dreamsongs (gathered short stories of his) where he thoroughly explains how he writes and what is important to him. George doesn't "test-drive" his plots in this way, because he doesn't need to, nor does he cower in fear of a fanbase. He's not writing a story to please fans, but a story that he likes, that he finds worthy to win the test of time literary wise. If you believe he's test driving, you know and understand little of George's writing process. More on the progress of tWoW: https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2016/07/12/the-ulimate-winds-of-winter-resource/

It also behooves prudence by Dany fans when George refused any film-maker who pitched a film narrative that would focus on Dany, how in a recent interview George stressed that GoT early on was an ensemble project with no actor being put forward for a lead role and that he significantly makes clear it also should have ended that way.

Edited by sweetsunray

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7 hours ago, Br16 said:

To each his own I suppose.  To be street smart is to know how to deal with thugs, ruthless rogues and bad neighborhoods ( such as Vargo, Slavers or Dothraki). Aegon has lived a relatively poor but safe/stable childhood. He may not be naive by our standards, but I feel he certainly is in the WOIAF.

That is not actually bad thing. Not having a safe or stable childhood can create lot of psychological issues, and crazy/insane rulers are never a good thing. Aegon's problem is that he may not be able to deal with court in Westeros... but neither will Daenerys. In real world, princes and successors had been raised and trained for the purpose, not thrown out to sharks and told to swim. Best rulers - such as the Five Good Emperors, many Byzantine emperors and monarchs - either had some administrative experience before (such as governing a province, which means that they had risen through the ranks by merit), or else had been tutored by a previous ruler before getting the throne. Street smarts do not help with that.

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25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, basically you think that since there are etremely disturbing narcissists and psychopaths who will use anything for power (Cersei, Euron) in the political arena that only another psychopath or machiavelist who has no morals whatsoever is necessary to be a good ruler of Westeros?

Sometimes it takes a crook to catch a crook. 

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But what does that have to do with the argument on how Aegon was raised to rule Westeros? None.

It shows that Aegon's much vaunted education was inadequate. He's basically bringing WWI tactics to WWII.

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

This is an argument you often see some people make in the show-forum who don't have a clue how George writes... George doesn't "test-drive" his plots in this way, because he doesn't need to, nor does he cower in fear of a fanbase. He's not writing a story to please fans, but a story that he likes, that he finds worthy to win the test of time literary wise. If you believe he's test driving, you know and understand little of George's writing process.

My opinion is this: In the past, George could afford to be himself only, to be fearless. You have to be in order to win, to be a pioneer. He did and he succeeded. Now he is at the pinnacle of his success. All writers say they write for themselves, but was there ever an artist who did not yearn for acclaim? He is now at the cross roads with a lot to lose, endings are always hard for gardener style writers, and what happens in TWOW and ADOS will make or break his Magnum Opus. He only has one shot, that's why TWOW is extensively delayed. Moreover, at this stage, the opinion of such a large and adoring fanbase, the sentiment of all those dedicated fans salivating for a satisfying ending, is a factor that cannot be simply ignored. Readers are the circulating blood that keeps a book alive, and no man is an island immune to public expectations. Thus, while I cannot say for certain, my gut feeling is that he test drived, because people don't always say what they do, or do what they say.

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