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Workable Socialism


Martell Spy

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7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

the claims of First Peoples and animals, fish, fowl and trees to the places they inhabit?  How did I insult you?

I have no idea exactly why @TrueMetis was offended, but I'm thinking continually grouping in any peoples with "animals, fish, fowl, and trees" would be pretty insulting to me.

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9 minutes ago, DMC said:

I have no idea exactly why @TrueMetis was offended, but I'm thinking continually grouping in any peoples with "animals, fish, fowl, and trees" would be pretty insulting to me.

Not to speak for TM but there was also this post from @Zorral :

Quote

So ... you say that native americans and animals losing their habitats and territories is their own fault, because they didn't file deeds of property?

You missed the point entirely, which is it's not merely deeds that makes for ownership.  Or how essential to sheer existence having even a hole in the ground is.

which is insulting whether it was intentional or not.  It completely misunderstands the point being made and then lectures TM on the topic, being wrong and preachy at the same time.  And then there's the context... Why is TM's reaction even remotely surprising?  Ffs

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1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Why are you furious with what I posted, when what I posted recognizes and says so, the claims of First Peoples and animals, fish, fowl and trees to the places they inhabit?  How did I insult you? I stated there are claims to locations and places that are valid that don't depend on filing  deed of property in a European legally-derived court, etc.

He has Native American ancestry, you offended him because you offered a (pretty mild) opinion in broad generality.

Taking no sides on this one, just observing.

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Also, more on property rights changing over time, there have been plenty of instances from a variety of times in human history some recent and contemporary, where owning people as property was considered lawful and fine.  

So maybe before exclaiming "oh mer gerds, there coming fer me property" consider that too.

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9 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

There need be no profit at all for those who make the given thing to get paid well. Indeed eliminating profit may see the workers actually make more, as instead of going to someone else the worker keeps the full value of what they produce.

But if we eliminate profit, then the capital and management will pull out, and when that happens, the workers might not have enough money to pay for machinery, fertilizers, land, raw materials etc. 

9 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Even assuming that's true (it largely isn't) who cares if their ancestors took risks? They don't actually have the right to pass on their wealth. Nowhere is that a stated to be a right. Besides, the fucking guy picking the Tomatoes is taking more of a risk now, so we don't we reward him?

The right to pass on wealth is what motivates people to risk what they have now to innovate and build, to reinvest and develop things long term. Without it, anyone with a bit of money now would just squander it on wild living, because the more he/she leaves behind, the more others take away.  

The guy picking tomatoes has a hard life, but the problem is that their labor is priced accordingly, determined by supply and demand. He has no distinct vision to set himself apart, no capital to risk, and no sense to pioneer new markets. He is one in a million, and that is why he is paid so little.

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3 minutes ago, Br16 said:

But if we eliminate profit, then the capital and management will pull out, and when that happens, the workers might not have enough money to pay for machinery, fertilizers, land, raw materials etc. 

The right to pass on wealth is what motivates people to risk what they have now to innovate and build, to reinvest and develop things long term. Without it, anyone with a bit of money now would just squander it on wild living, because the more he/she leaves behind, the more others take away.  

The guy picking tomatoes has a hard life, but the problem is that their labor is priced accordingly, determined by supply and demand. He has no distinct vision to set himself apart, no capital to risk, and no sense to pioneer new markets. He is one in a million, and that is why he is paid so little.

Goddamn right! He's barely even a person! I say that the moment 'tomato pickers' are too old to meet quota we just grind them up and feed them to the rest of the labor.

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4 minutes ago, Br16 said:

But if we eliminate profit, then the capital and management will pull out, and when that happens, the workers might not have enough money to pay for machinery, fertilizers, land, raw materials etc. 

The right to pass on wealth is what motivates people to risk what they have now to innovate and build, to reinvest and develop things long term. Without it, anyone with a bit of money now would just squander it on wild living, because the more he/she leaves behind, the more others take away.  

The guy picking tomatoes has a hard life, but the problem is that their labor is priced accordingly, determined by supply and demand. He has no distinct vision to set himself apart, no capital to risk, and no sense to pioneer new markets. He is one in a million, and that is why he is paid so little.

Lol Ayn Rand's corpse just got wet.

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1 hour ago, Br16 said:

If you're deadly serious about this:

Then why complain? Just enjoy what you have, it's not rot to you. Your (I presume) quarterly allowance was given to you as a voluntary gift, so its your money, and that's all that matters. You can't revoke someone's property rights just because of bad attitude.

If you are indeed wealthy but feel bad, just give 10% of each allowance to a charity of your choice.

The point is, your "pull yourself up by the boot straps" argument, and "if you take risks, you deserve to rule over the poor" argument...are ridiculous. I think it's great Zorral has that safety net, and I wouldn't ask that to be taken away. But this idea that the rich are somehow more worthy of their wealth for some shit they did (honorably or most likely dishonorably) is flat out dumb.

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15 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

The point is, your "pull yourself up by the boot straps" argument, and "if you take risks, you deserve to rule over the poor" argument...are ridiculous. I think it's great Zorral has that safety net, and I wouldn't ask that to be taken away. But this idea that the rich are somehow more worthy of their wealth for some shit they did (honorably or most likely dishonorably) is flat out dumb.

"You're just lazy! I've taken a half a semester of sociology at Groth Community College and I know that all societies require a lower class! It's just science!!! Listen to my GALAXY BRAIN!!!!!!!"

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4 hours ago, a good and nice guy said:

actually it was effort of the workers that made it successsful

Only partially,  the capital investment and market vision is what led to the success. Without capital,raw materials, networks, equipment and a coherent business plan, simply having workers create nothing.

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The entire concept of trade doesn't work without the idea of ownership and we have archeological evidence of trade that goes back to the stone age.

The concept of personal ownership of land is also much older than Locke. The Romans had very rich land-owners (not unlike in the big slave farmers in the US), in the middle-ages, entire villages were personally owned, traded, gifted to monasteries and bequeathed to heirs. In fact, those villages or cities here, that are 800 years and older usually have their first written mention in a written contract that transfers ownership (of course many of the places are much older settlements).

The idea, that "the state" should own all land is not that new either. Ask the Egyptians, or Louis XIV, they would all agree that "the state" should own and control all. They just might have a differen opinion on what or who the state is to whom they are accountable.

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1 hour ago, Alarich II said:

The entire concept of trade doesn't work without the idea of ownership and we have archeological evidence of trade that goes back to the stone age.

The concept of personal ownership of land is also much older than Locke. The Romans had very rich land-owners (not unlike in the big slave farmers in the US), in the middle-ages, entire villages were personally owned, traded, gifted to monasteries and bequeathed to heirs. In fact, those villages or cities here, that are 800 years and older usually have their first written mention in a written contract that transfers ownership (of course many of the places are much older settlements).

The idea, that "the state" should own all land is not that new either. Ask the Egyptians, or Louis XIV, they would all agree that "the state" should own and control all. They just might have a differen opinion on what or who the state is to whom they are accountable.

Good point. Another thing is that even those historical principles where state is ultimate landowner, in practice they still subcontract the land to tenants whose terms and purpose more or less fulfills the function of private ownership.

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7 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Goddamn right! He's barely even a person! I say that the moment 'tomato pickers' are too old to meet quota we just grind them up and feed them to the rest of the labor.

Who knows, things may turn his way one day. In a labor shortage, he can command a higher wage, or even demand shares. However, to offer a pay unsupported by demand would just reduce incentive to hire and cause unemployment. 

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8 minutes ago, Mindwalker said:

Looks like we need a "Workable Neoliberalism" thread.

 

Then again, that concept only has to work out for a few people, so I guess it's already working just fine.

Would you like to join the fun?

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8 hours ago, Br16 said:

The right to pass on wealth is what motivates people to risk what they have now to innovate and build, to reinvest and develop things long term. Without it, anyone with a bit of money now would just squander it on wild living, because the more he/she leaves behind, the more others take away. 

- What motivates some people. It has been demonstrated (by economists as a matter of fact) that financial rewards play a much smaller role in work than some (like you) would have us think. It's really simple: some functions in society do not offer the possibility of hoarding wealth (i.e. are not well-paid) while for some functions the salary does not depend on the quality of the work itself (or very indirectly).
Our societies only function because there is much more than "passing on wealth" that motivates people.

- "Squander on wild living" ? What does this even mean? By your logic anyone who succeeds and doesn't have children lives on hookers and cocaine, is that it? :D Please please explain this one, I think we can all use a good laugh.

Your view of human nature is so ridiculous that I'm not even mad, I don't know how you can actually believe what you write. Or it's more likely you don't even realize what you're saying. I'll go out on a limb and say you need to read more.

In a nutshell, humans are much more than economic agents, and to reduce human motivations to economic considerations is already ridiculous in the extreme. Unfortunately, as a dominant ideology this vision is also extremely dangerous since it seeks both to legitimize the current levels of inequality (which you're desperately trying to do yourself) and destroy social structures not based on profit.

Also, the amount of wealth that would suffice to motivate individuals is actually quite low. Again, there's been stuff written about that.

4 hours ago, Br16 said:

Only partially,  the capital investment and market vision is what led to the success. Without capital,raw materials, networks, equipment and a coherent business plan, simply having workers create nothing.

And how does one get the capital investment and market vision? Is everyone born with the capital or possibility of borrowing it? With the bare amount of knowledge necessary to develop a "market vision" ?

Even with all the financial and cultural capital, only a lucky few succeed ; conversely, entrepreneurship is completely out of reach of the vast majority of humans...

Piketty has demonstrated why and how people don't get wealthy through work, even in the developed world (let's not even begin to talk about developing countries). We're back to 18th century levels of inequality that mean wealth is primarily inherited. The few rich people whose names we know are the counter-examples, the focus on which serves propaganda purposes. The reality is that wealth is so concentrated that there can no longer be any objective link between great wealth and merit.

25 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Who knows, things may turn his way one day. In a labor shortage, he can command a higher wage, or even demand shares.

Yeah, no, it just doesn't work like that. Once the balance of power swings in the direction of the capitalists it doesn't swing back "naturally". The market does not self-correct, it is too heavily influenced by those who possess the capital.

The idea that the market prices everything "accordingly" is laughable.

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