Young Griff: What do we really know?

[M.Alhazred]

Is he really a Targ or just posing as one? Varys must know that Westros would never accept a BlackFyre king and so this story was concocted.

[asongofheresy]

How do you know Westeros won't accept a Blackfyre King? And if Aegon is not Aegon, he doesn't have to be secret Blackfyre or Brightflame, considering the fragile situation of Westeros after War of the Five King, any Blackfyre/Brightflame rich enough to hire Golden Company has right to press their claim for the throne. 

[Br16]

54 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

How do you know Westeros won't accept a Blackfyre King? And if Aegon is not Aegon, he doesn't have to be secret Blackfyre or Brightflame, considering the fragile situation of Westeros after War of the Five King, any Blackfyre/Brightflame rich enough to hire Golden Company has right to press their claim for the throne. 

You have a point. We have to remember that the Backfyres were legitimized. Even if the Backfyres now have to claim from the female line (which is a weakness since Targs have an ultra male preference/ male line inheritance only succession precedent), it is still a claim and certainly stronger than Robert's. In medieval settings, all you need is a claim (does not have to be water right) plus field army brawn and you're good to go. The key is to eliminate all potential other claimants or mollify them by marriage.

Thus, even if Aegon is FAegon, he could still go for it. However, if he was indeed outed as Blackfyre from female line, he would lose any sway over Dany, and lose Dorne's support. The only people who would back him would be bold opportunist Lords and GC.

[asongofheresy]

15 minutes ago, Br16 said:

You have a point. We have to remember that the Backfyres were legitimized. Even if the Backfyres now have to claim from the female line (which is a weakness since Targs have an ultra male preference/ male line inheritance only succession precedent), it is still a claim and certainly stronger than Robert's. In medieval settings, all you need is a claim (does not have to be water right) plus field army brawn and you're good to go. The key is to eliminate all potential other claimants or mollify them by marriage.

Thus, even if Aegon is FAegon, he could still go for it. However, if he was indeed outed as Blackfyre from female line, he would lose any sway over Dany, and lose Dorne's support. The only people who would back him would be bold opportunist Lords and GC.

I am just saying Aegon doesn't need to hide his Blackfyre identity, since only Jon Connington would know if he is Aegon or not, and he won't be fooled since he got Aegon as a seven years old child not as a baby to pass of as Prince Aegon. 

[Br16]

1 minute ago, Jova Snow said:

I am just saying Aegon doesn't need to hide his Blackfyre identity, since only Jon Connington would know if he is Aegon or not, and he won't be fooled since he got Aegon as a seven years old child not as a baby to pass of as Prince Aegon. 

If he is indeed a Blackfyre, then he absolutely has to hide it if he wishes to retain the political capital of being Rhaegar's first true born son, and the possible Dorne alliance and Dany (dragon obtaining) marriage that it'll bring.

If word ever got out because he had loose lips in private (walls have ears etc.), he will lose a lot of political capital.

[M.Alhazred]

10 minutes ago, Br16 said:

If he is indeed a Blackfyre, then he absolutely has to hide it if he wishes to retain the political capital of being Rhaegar's first true born son, and the possible Dorne alliance and Dany (dragon obtaining) marriage that it'll bring.

If word ever got out because he had loose lips in private (walls have ears etc.), he will lose a lot of political capital.

This is exactly what I have been thinking.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

I belive he is not a true Targaryen, could be a Blackfyre or from other Valyrian families but probably he is a Blackfyre, because Golden Company never broke his promise and they did for him, this means there is something about him.

And Varys's story is not completly logical. Well, let's look. Tywin has came and started slaughter everone in KL and Red Keep. He went to town and search a baby for trick everyone. First he has to find a baby looks like a Valyrian because I'm sure every one knows how the baby looks like and Genna(it was her, if i remember correctly) told us dead baby's hair blonde like a Targaryen. And later he wento to Elia switch babies and he gave baby to some one?

 

Well, how he knew can find a baby looks like a Targaryen, it is not a gambit? I mean the city is mess, every one slaughter by Lannister soldiers and a man trading just because he never drink Arbor wine? He doesn't care hiding for save his own life? Really? And if Varys can find time to find a boy and switch, wy he didin't save both girl and boy and of course mother life too? Whole story ise a lie.

[Br16]

2 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Whole story ise a lie.

Agree, I think it's highly likely that he's Illyrio's son by Serra (who is probably a Blackfyre).

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

I belive he is not a true Targaryen, could be a Blackfyre or from other Valyrian families but probably he is a Blackfyre, because Golden Company never broke his promise and they did for him, this means there is something about him.

And Varys's story is not completly logical. Well, let's look. Tywin has came and started slaughter everone in KL and Red Keep. He went to town and search a baby for trick everyone. First he has to find a baby looks like a Valyrian because I'm sure every one knows how the baby looks like and Genna(it was her, if i remember correctly) told us dead baby's hair blonde like a Targaryen. And later he wento to Elia switch babies and he gave baby to some one?

 

Well, how he knew can find a baby looks like a Targaryen, it is not a gambit? I mean the city is mess, every one slaughter by Lannister soldiers and a man trading just because he never drink Arbor wine? He doesn't care hiding for save his own life? Really? And if Varys can find time to find a boy and switch, wy he didin't save both girl and boy and of course mother life too? Whole story ise a lie.

Actually no, Golden Company wanted Daenerys not Aegon. They were going to meet Daenerys and broke their contract for Daenerys. We can't even say they broke a contract considering Harry says he didn't know about contract of Myles Toyne before but once he know he decided to honor a previous promise of his late captain. Illyrio thinks Golden Company will broke their contract for Targaryens but they are only honoring Myles' contract not to tarnish their reputation and Aegon promise them a return to Westeros along with castles and lands.

Like I said Aegon doesn't need to hide his Blackfyre heritage because Targaryens were extinguished and no male to threaten a Blackfyre claim and if Aegon was a Blackfyre he didn't need Jon Connington rising him and he can still come to Westeros with Golden Company to take advantage of War of the five king's.  

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

Which brings us back to Dany. If her arrival with dragons and, possibly, a fresh enemy out of Dorne, will reposition Aegon as the better alternative or if Targaryen>Blackfyre just because even if she is a woman. Doubtful, but still.

Still not buying a marriage alliance working out between those two. Even if the stars alligned, he may just despise her and she would for sure resent him.

And as for political capital? Sure the story is sketchy even by Varys standards, but wouldn't it be 'fun' if the possible Aegon-marriage, be it Reach or Dorne was fait accomplit before the sh*t hit the fan and everyone did find out he was a Blackfyre or a simple standin for Rhaegar's son?

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

4 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Agree, I think it's highly likely that he's Illyrio's son by Serra (who is probably a Blackfyre).

Yes, probably, we know he has love for him and admire him. The boy lived with him for a while, we can sure about that.

2 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Actually no, Golden Company wanted Daenerys not Aegon. They were going to meet Daenerys and broke their contract for Daenerys. We can't even say they broke a contract considering Harry says he didn't know about contract of Myles Toyne before but once he know he decided to honor a previous promise of his late captain. Illyrio thinks Golden Company will broke their contract for Targaryens but they are only honoring Myles' contract not to tarnish their reputation and Aegon promise them a return to Westeros along with castles and lands.

I do not remember this, I remember they did for Aegon. Where was this written? I need to check it.

[asongofheresy]

2 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Agree, I think it's highly likely that he's Illyrio's son by Serra (who is probably a Blackfyre).

Which is also false because Illyrio has yellow hair with pigs eyes and Serra had silver streaked hair with blue eyes. Aegon has silver hair with indigo eyes. No resembles what so ever. Illyrio also can't keep Aegon's hands because grey scale affects fingers and toes first. Serra's hands would be cut to prevent infection to effect her whole body. Serra also has  great chance of being Saera Targaryen's descendant through her Lyseni bastard son. Saera's sister Maegelle died of greyscale. And Saera's descendant has  higher chance of ending up as a bed slave than a Blackfyre daughter whose family married nobility. Like I said fandoms fantasies about Blackfyres doesn't make any sense. Same is true for Aegon having Blackfyre when we know Aegon does have a sword and a dagger gifted by Illyrio and no one comments how this sword is Blackfyre or resembles Blackfyre. 

[M.Alhazred]

4 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Which brings us back to Dany. If her arrival with dragons and, possibly, a fresh enemy out of Dorne, will reposition Aegon as the better alternative or if Targaryen>Blackfyre just because even if she is a woman.

Still not buying a marriage alliance working out between those two. Even if the stars alligned, he may just despose her and she would for sure resent him.

And as for political capital? Sure the story is sketchy even by Varys standards, but wouldn't it be 'fun' if the possible Aegon-marriage, be it Reach or Dorne was fait accomplit before the sh*t hit the fan and everyone did find out he was a Blackfyre or a simple standin for Rhaegar's son?

If he's a Blackfyre or some other Valerian with the chaos that's been goin down wishful thinking would take care of the rest.

[asongofheresy]

1 minute ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Yes, probably, we know he has love for him and admire him. The boy lived with him for a while, we can sure about that.

I do not remember this, I remember they did for Aegon. Where was this written? I need to check it.

No, Aegon was never known by Golden Company captains before and and during the meeting of Aegon and Golden Company, Harry insists he needs Daenerys while Aegon tries to sway them to his cause. Golden Company captains says Illyrio's plans changed every moon's turn and they were supposed to join Daenerys and went west with her. It's Aegon who tells them he can give Golden Company  they want. 

[Br16]

13 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Targaryens were extinguished and no male to threaten a Blackfyre claim

But Dany inherits from Aerys II and Viserys. So she has superior male line inheritance. Any Blackfyre claim would be from the female line ( a no no according to Targ succession), which is why the Blackfyre threat petered out when the last male was slain. 

8 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Which is also false because Illyrio has yellow hair with pigs eyes and Serra had silver streaked hair with blue eyes. Aegon has silver hair with indigo eyes

Blue and purple are pretty close, so both falls within the range of Valyrian DNA. Moreover, Aegon V married brunette Betha and still had some Valyrian looking kids. 

[Aldarion]

Aactually, it doesn't matter whether Aegon is truly Rhaegar's son or not - and for that reason, I do not think it will ever be discovered (it is still nice to theoretize, though). What matters is:

1) what/who people believe him to be

2) what/who other characters believe him to be

3) how he performs as a king

To give an example of Byzantine Empire (which I am quite fascinated with), there were no real dynasties, up until late 11th century and Komnenoi - precisely when final decline of the Empire started. There were some families which provided multiple rulers in succession, but even then it was not continuous, but rather military leaders (generals) etc. would be interspersed among "legitimate" rulers - sometimes by marrying into the family, sometimes by simply taking the throne and keeping "rightful" ruler in the background. But up until Komnenoi, family did not provide legitimacy. What did was the acceptance of the people: Emperors were first acclaimed by the military (by being raised on a shield), and then acclaimed by the people. And if they did not perform, they were overthrown.

That, I think, is the core conflict between Aegon and Daenerys. Aegon represents the idea of a good ruler, groomed for the job and acclaimed by the people; the idea of popular legitimacy. Daenerys represents the idea of a ruler who ascends because of their bloodlines, of dynastic legitimacy. He will be defined by beliefs of other people and by his own competence. People will likely believe that he is Rhaegar's son, as he will mend Westeros' wounds - he will represent hope. Other major characters/nobles' actions will likely be based on whether they believe him to be legitimate, but that will have nothing to do with whether he really is legitimate. Jon Connington believes him to be legitimate because he is desperate to make amends to Rhaegar. Barristan may decide to believe him legitimate for the same reason. Daenerys may decide either way, which will depend on her character and focus. There are two ideas, I think, which define her: throne and family. She talks of her family a lot, but she also talks of her right to the throne a lot. So whether Daenerys believes him to be legitimate will, I think, be decided by her focus at the time. If she cares more about her family, she will decide to believe him to be legitimate. If she cares more about power, she will decide to believe him to be false. And if Aegon proves to be a capable and popular ruler, he will present a conondrum for Daenerys regardless of whether she believes him legitimate or not: she believes herself a champion of the people, and she has always believed that people will cheer for her when the rightful queen returns to Westeros. So even if she decides to believe him false, fact remains that Aegon will have already stolen that from her - and if she kills him, she will become what she has always professed to hate: a tyrant and a usurper.

And all of the above is why I would like Aegon, and not Jon or Daenerys, to become a ruler. Because if Jon is truly Rhaegar's son, he also represents the same idea of dynastic legitimacy as Daenerys does.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

3 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Which is also false because Illyrio has yellow hair with pigs eyes and Serra had silver streaked hair with blue eyes. Aegon has silver hair with indigo eyes. No resembles what so ever

Rhaegar has blue eyes but Dany has indigo eyes. So? Dany is not Rhargar's sister?

Serra could has blue eyes but her son could have indigo or others...

 

 

Quote

 

No, Aegon was never known by Golden Company captains before and and during the meeting of Aegon and Golden Company, Harry insists he needs Daenerys while Aegon tries to sway them to his cause. Golden Company captains says Illyrio's plans changed every moon's turn and they were supposed to join Daenerys and went west with her. It's Aegon who tells them he can give Golden Company  they want. 

 

 

Thank you for reminding me.  
 

[asongofheresy]

27 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Rhaegar has blue eyes but Dany has indigo eyes. So? Dany is not Rhargar's sister?

Serra could has blue eyes but her son could have indigo or others...

 

 

Thank you for reminding me.  
 

No, Rhaegar had indigo eyes according to Jon Connington and HotU vision Daenerys saw. Daenerys has violet eyes while Viserys has lilac eyes, I think Aerys has lilac eyes. Daenerys' eyes are also said to be amethyst colored and other Targaryen with amethyst colored eyes is Daemon II Blackfyre son of Daemon Blackfyre. 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Soo it means they have different eyes color. You got what i mean  

(By the way, sorry english is not my mother language. I was thinking indigo ise violet and i didin't know indigo what means this why i used word blue  )

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Aegon legit