Jump to content
Angel Eyes

So, remind me why independence for the North is so important.

Recommended Posts

On 8/5/2019 at 5:22 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

If she attacks Westeros with dragons and burns livestock, food, and soldiers who are basically the common folk she shoots herself in the foot. Dragonphobia, tyrantphobia, Targphobia, and pyrophobia would all be added to the mix and aren't completely unreasonable from their POV. 

Can I be honest?

I don't think Daenerys is going to start the war. I think it will be someone on Team Aegon (Varys or Arianne are my first guesses) and/or Euron who will antagonize Daenerys into a declaration of war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Can I be honest?

I don't think Daenerys is going to start the war. I think it will be someone on Team Aegon (Varys or Arianne are my first guesses) and/or Euron who will antagonize Daenerys into a declaration of war.

I don’t think it matters, what it comes down to is that she’s the bigger threat to humanity than Cersei or Euron, and will invade Westeros to take the throne. She represents death and destruction, and her entire arc is about learning how to become a conqueror. That means killing a lot of innocent people on purpose, and also not caring who she kills, just smashing anything in her path. If Dany doesn’t kill thousands of innocents on purpose, the author is being dishonest about what war and conquest mean. And if Dany wants the IT, the author is going to make it so that she has to commit war crimes on a massive scale to get it. I think she’s going to have parallels to her father, in that her captivity is going to make her lose touch with humanity, and she won’t show any mercy to people who stand in the way. She had always planned to antagonize Westeros from her very early book chapters. We just went on a really long diversion to tempt her from not actually invading. She should stay in Meereen and continue the work she started. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I don’t think it matters, what it comes down to is that she’s the bigger threat to humanity than Cersei or Euron, and will invade Westeros to take the throne. She represents death and destruction, and her entire arc is about learning how to become a conqueror. That means killing a lot of innocent people on purpose, and also not caring who she kills, just smashing anything in her path. If Dany doesn’t kill thousands of innocents on purpose, the author is being dishonest about what war and conquest mean. And if Dany wants the IT, the author is going to make it so that she has to commit war crimes on a massive scale to get it. I think she’s going to have parallels to her father, in that her captivity is going to make her lose touch with humanity, and she won’t show any mercy to people who stand in the way. She had always planned to antagonize Westeros from her very early book chapters. We just went on a really long diversion to tempt her from not actually invading. She should stay in Meereen and continue the work she started. 

Euron in the books is surely a bigger threat, a lunatic warlock who delights in evil for its own sake.  

Dany will certainly kill people on her road to power.  That's what any leader does.  There's no evidence (that I can see) that she's worse than the Starks in that regard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/4/2019 at 2:41 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

You're absolutely right.

If they wanted Cersei to blow up the Westerosi version of the Pope and the Vatican up, they should've spent the next season focusing on the consequences of that. The smallfolk in King's Landing were rioting back in season 2 because they were hungry.

I think that a significant part of the war between Aegon and Daenerys will be a religious one. Thanks to Cersei, Aegon is likely to have the full support of the Faith Militant and almost everyone who seriously worships the 7. Daenerys, on the other hand, is going to be bankrolled by the red priests. I'm not sure if Daenerys will ever come to personally believe in R'hllor (I think she might towards the end) but she is going to have a bunch of support from the red priests. Honestly, she needs their support in Essos but she'll have some serious problems in Westeros.

So yeah: even though I don't believe Daenerys and the Others are evil, they are supposed to both embody serious existential threats to Westeros. As far as the more human element (Daenerys) is concerned, what's more existential threatening than the prospect of a foreign invasion that carries the very real implication that you'll be forced to convert to foreign religion.

At this point, septons and smallfolk in the south view Stannis as an undesirable nuisance. Daenerys will look like Satan to them.

In the end, I think the two religions will either be completely destroyed or no longer have any clout in Westeros. Especially the Fot7 because they are obviously fake whereas R'hllor and the old gods are very well.

Before all is said and done, thanks to Bran, Arya, Sansa and general northern heroism, I feel like people will start worshipping the old gods again.

Well, historically, being able to have real miracles hasn't been required for spreading or maintaining a religion.  While I think the red priest's ability to do magic should get them converts, its not going just be a mass switch.  The Fot7 is too engrained in their culture.  Any sort of rapid conversion would also entail huge religious civil strife.

And nothing we've seen the old gods do is going to be paticularly convincing either.  Bran claiming he can see the past isn't going to cause people to convert.  

I do agree that Dany coming with red priests in tow is going to be very bad for her PR campaign! hah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Euron in the books is surely a bigger threat, a lunatic warlock who delights in evil for its own sake.  

Dany will certainly kill people on her road to power.  That's what any leader does.  There's no evidence (that I can see) that she's worse than the Starks in that regard.

Evil people who act evil, and are obviously evil--that's not GRRM's style. It's too obvious. Euron also has to have a twist. It makes more sense that the big bad is the the beautiful "savior of humanity" with nice sounding titles. Her story is about POV traps, hypocrisy, and contradictions. 

Also I just realized that Jon killing her also fits the prophecy, with a twist. He had to sacrifice "Nissa" to save the world - from HER. 

I really dont think the story will end with moral relativism. The Starks are the central heroes. Dany will end up being worse than any of the major houses in terms of how much destruction she can bring. For most readers she'll end as a war criminal, a tyrant, and a terrorist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/2/2019 at 10:07 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

It was fanservice.

The muppets some would call showrunners liked Robb, liked the idea of northern independence (even though the concept of northern independence was always rather illogical, even within the context of the story) and they felt bad/embarrassed about the way they treated Sansa, so they did it to make themselves feel better in the hopes of winning some cool points.

They never won the cool points. Everyone with a brain knows it's fanservice.

That being sad, I do think that all of the kingdoms become independent at the end of the story united only by their belief in the old gods and by Bran as the ultimate overseer, counselor and peacekeeper.

What fans is this serving? Freefolk had thousands of subscribers and was a cesspit of Sansa hate. GRRM said she was the character that was most hated by readers, next to Catelyn. I noticed that most people started to complain about every little thing she did as soon as she got agency for herself in the show. People also hated her because she didn't kiss Dany's ass. Sansa as queen makes more sense to her arc than Bronn as master of coin. It really isn't that hard to see Sansa as a ruler. There will be one female character rising with a title, while all the others are falling. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Evil people who act evil, and are obviously evil--that's not GRRM's style. It's too obvious. Euron also has to have a twist. It makes more sense that the big bad is the the beautiful "savior of humanity" with nice sounding titles. Her story is about POV traps, hypocrisy, and contradictions. 

Also I just realized that Jon killing her also fits the prophecy, with a twist. He had to sacrifice "Nissa" to save the world - from HER. 

I really dont think the story will end with moral relativism. The Starks are the central heroes. Dany will end up being worse than any of the major houses in terms of how much destruction she can bring. For most readers she'll end as a war criminal, a tyrant, and a terrorist.

There are people who are utterly evil in this series.  Lots  of them.

Daenerys is not one of them.  

Do I think the average Lord of Westeros will accept her? No, she's a foreign whore who doesn't know her place and/or an abomination born of incest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are people who are utterly evil in this series.  Lots  of them.

Daenerys is not one of them.  

Do I think the average Lord of Westeros will accept her? No, she's a foreign whore who doesn't know her place and/or an abomination born of incest

If she wants the throne she's going to have to climb over dead children to get it. That's the choice and the test, otherwise the author is going easy on her. She didnt start out as evil and she definitely doesn't see herself that way, but some melted swords are more important to her than human life. People have a legitimate reason to not want her as queen and I'm sure she'll give them more reason beyond prejudices against her gender. She's not a victim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If she wants the throne she's going to have to climb over dead children to get it. That's the choice and the test, otherwise the author is going easy on her. She didnt start out as evil and she definitely doesn't see herself that way, but some melted swords are more important to her than human life. People have a legitimate reason to not want her as queen and I'm sure she'll give them more reason beyond prejudices against her gender. She's not a victim.

I'm sure one could say Henry Tudor or William of Orange were utterly evil, because people died at their hands.  But, we don't remember them that way.   I do think Dany will fail, so she will be remembered as a monster.  But, it won't be true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm sure one could say Henry Tudor or William of Orange were utterly evil, because people died at their hands.  But, we don't remember them that way.   I do think Dany will fail, so she will be remembered as a monster.  But, it won't be true.

It's fantasy, everything is dialed up to 11 so the historical comparisons are pretty tame. Why do you keep trying to soften this character? She's always been over the top. The stallion that mounts (fucks) the world has to deliver in a big way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's fantasy, everything is dialed up to 11 so the historical comparisons are pretty tame. Why do you keep trying to soften this character? She's always been over the top. The stallion that mounts (fucks) the world has to deliver in a big way.

Maybe she will exterminate people for shit and giggles, but why would she?

Where is the evidence that she is any more brutal than any other player of the Game of Thrones?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/8/2019 at 3:17 PM, SeanF said:

Maybe she will exterminate people for shit and giggles, but why would she?

Where is the evidence that she is any more brutal than any other player of the Game of Thrones?

Normal brutality would be enough for any player...but not for the dragon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back on topic, 

Independence for the North could make sense if they did not place Bran as King of the whole kingdoms. Both things seem very unlikely to happen at the same time. 

As stated, the North may have issues with following some foreign kings. They have said so and it´s understandable. But they would not have issues following Ned Stark´s boy. Bran would be the logical heir for the King in the North position. And if Bran now wants to be the king, he would have both the right name and the support from the North. Sansa would be seen as some kind of traitor because she had been married to both Tyrion and Bolton. One was a foreigner, the other the North´s public enemy. Plus, Sansa has been politically very tied with The Vale which does not look like a very independent position. I know she helped restore the North but she did so with a foreign army. She is also much more Tully like. The North would likely enjoy Arya more then Sansa. And they would never favour Sansa over Bran. 

I believe the show did a "cool and bad ass" thing with either or both Bran and Sansa. 

I suspect Bran is going to be much more tied to the North. As far as we know he will need to stay and turn into a tree. Maybe at Winterfell but I don´t see it being at Kings Landing. 

As for Sansa, it makes sense for her to end up with lots of power. But I kind of see her with a very big chance to end up as a Queen regent with Tyrion. They may still be married in the books and their union may be a very welcome one for all other kingdoms. It may be awesome to have Starks and Lannisters at peace and sharing power. I can see all houses willing to support that. If they will have kids or not is something else. But I see them as very possible regents at the end. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×