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So, remind me why independence for the North is so important.

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On 8/5/2019 at 5:22 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

If she attacks Westeros with dragons and burns livestock, food, and soldiers who are basically the common folk she shoots herself in the foot. Dragonphobia, tyrantphobia, Targphobia, and pyrophobia would all be added to the mix and aren't completely unreasonable from their POV. 

Can I be honest?

I don't think Daenerys is going to start the war. I think it will be someone on Team Aegon (Varys or Arianne are my first guesses) and/or Euron who will antagonize Daenerys into a declaration of war.

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7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Can I be honest?

I don't think Daenerys is going to start the war. I think it will be someone on Team Aegon (Varys or Arianne are my first guesses) and/or Euron who will antagonize Daenerys into a declaration of war.

I don’t think it matters, what it comes down to is that she’s the bigger threat to humanity than Cersei or Euron, and will invade Westeros to take the throne. She represents death and destruction, and her entire arc is about learning how to become a conqueror. That means killing a lot of innocent people on purpose, and also not caring who she kills, just smashing anything in her path. If Dany doesn’t kill thousands of innocents on purpose, the author is being dishonest about what war and conquest mean. And if Dany wants the IT, the author is going to make it so that she has to commit war crimes on a massive scale to get it. I think she’s going to have parallels to her father, in that her captivity is going to make her lose touch with humanity, and she won’t show any mercy to people who stand in the way. She had always planned to antagonize Westeros from her very early book chapters. We just went on a really long diversion to tempt her from not actually invading. She should stay in Meereen and continue the work she started. 

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5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I don’t think it matters, what it comes down to is that she’s the bigger threat to humanity than Cersei or Euron, and will invade Westeros to take the throne. She represents death and destruction, and her entire arc is about learning how to become a conqueror. That means killing a lot of innocent people on purpose, and also not caring who she kills, just smashing anything in her path. If Dany doesn’t kill thousands of innocents on purpose, the author is being dishonest about what war and conquest mean. And if Dany wants the IT, the author is going to make it so that she has to commit war crimes on a massive scale to get it. I think she’s going to have parallels to her father, in that her captivity is going to make her lose touch with humanity, and she won’t show any mercy to people who stand in the way. She had always planned to antagonize Westeros from her very early book chapters. We just went on a really long diversion to tempt her from not actually invading. She should stay in Meereen and continue the work she started. 

Euron in the books is surely a bigger threat, a lunatic warlock who delights in evil for its own sake.  

Dany will certainly kill people on her road to power.  That's what any leader does.  There's no evidence (that I can see) that she's worse than the Starks in that regard.

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On 8/4/2019 at 2:41 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

You're absolutely right.

If they wanted Cersei to blow up the Westerosi version of the Pope and the Vatican up, they should've spent the next season focusing on the consequences of that. The smallfolk in King's Landing were rioting back in season 2 because they were hungry.

I think that a significant part of the war between Aegon and Daenerys will be a religious one. Thanks to Cersei, Aegon is likely to have the full support of the Faith Militant and almost everyone who seriously worships the 7. Daenerys, on the other hand, is going to be bankrolled by the red priests. I'm not sure if Daenerys will ever come to personally believe in R'hllor (I think she might towards the end) but she is going to have a bunch of support from the red priests. Honestly, she needs their support in Essos but she'll have some serious problems in Westeros.

So yeah: even though I don't believe Daenerys and the Others are evil, they are supposed to both embody serious existential threats to Westeros. As far as the more human element (Daenerys) is concerned, what's more existential threatening than the prospect of a foreign invasion that carries the very real implication that you'll be forced to convert to foreign religion.

At this point, septons and smallfolk in the south view Stannis as an undesirable nuisance. Daenerys will look like Satan to them.

In the end, I think the two religions will either be completely destroyed or no longer have any clout in Westeros. Especially the Fot7 because they are obviously fake whereas R'hllor and the old gods are very well.

Before all is said and done, thanks to Bran, Arya, Sansa and general northern heroism, I feel like people will start worshipping the old gods again.

Well, historically, being able to have real miracles hasn't been required for spreading or maintaining a religion.  While I think the red priest's ability to do magic should get them converts, its not going just be a mass switch.  The Fot7 is too engrained in their culture.  Any sort of rapid conversion would also entail huge religious civil strife.

And nothing we've seen the old gods do is going to be paticularly convincing either.  Bran claiming he can see the past isn't going to cause people to convert.  

I do agree that Dany coming with red priests in tow is going to be very bad for her PR campaign! hah.

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Euron in the books is surely a bigger threat, a lunatic warlock who delights in evil for its own sake.  

Dany will certainly kill people on her road to power.  That's what any leader does.  There's no evidence (that I can see) that she's worse than the Starks in that regard.

Evil people who act evil, and are obviously evil--that's not GRRM's style. It's too obvious. Euron also has to have a twist. It makes more sense that the big bad is the the beautiful "savior of humanity" with nice sounding titles. Her story is about POV traps, hypocrisy, and contradictions. 

Also I just realized that Jon killing her also fits the prophecy, with a twist. He had to sacrifice "Nissa" to save the world - from HER. 

I really dont think the story will end with moral relativism. The Starks are the central heroes. Dany will end up being worse than any of the major houses in terms of how much destruction she can bring. For most readers she'll end as a war criminal, a tyrant, and a terrorist.

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On 8/2/2019 at 10:07 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

It was fanservice.

The muppets some would call showrunners liked Robb, liked the idea of northern independence (even though the concept of northern independence was always rather illogical, even within the context of the story) and they felt bad/embarrassed about the way they treated Sansa, so they did it to make themselves feel better in the hopes of winning some cool points.

They never won the cool points. Everyone with a brain knows it's fanservice.

That being sad, I do think that all of the kingdoms become independent at the end of the story united only by their belief in the old gods and by Bran as the ultimate overseer, counselor and peacekeeper.

What fans is this serving? Freefolk had thousands of subscribers and was a cesspit of Sansa hate. GRRM said she was the character that was most hated by readers, next to Catelyn. I noticed that most people started to complain about every little thing she did as soon as she got agency for herself in the show. People also hated her because she didn't kiss Dany's ass. Sansa as queen makes more sense to her arc than Bronn as master of coin. It really isn't that hard to see Sansa as a ruler. There will be one female character rising with a title, while all the others are falling. 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Evil people who act evil, and are obviously evil--that's not GRRM's style. It's too obvious. Euron also has to have a twist. It makes more sense that the big bad is the the beautiful "savior of humanity" with nice sounding titles. Her story is about POV traps, hypocrisy, and contradictions. 

Also I just realized that Jon killing her also fits the prophecy, with a twist. He had to sacrifice "Nissa" to save the world - from HER. 

I really dont think the story will end with moral relativism. The Starks are the central heroes. Dany will end up being worse than any of the major houses in terms of how much destruction she can bring. For most readers she'll end as a war criminal, a tyrant, and a terrorist.

There are people who are utterly evil in this series.  Lots  of them.

Daenerys is not one of them.  

Do I think the average Lord of Westeros will accept her? No, she's a foreign whore who doesn't know her place and/or an abomination born of incest

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39 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are people who are utterly evil in this series.  Lots  of them.

Daenerys is not one of them.  

Do I think the average Lord of Westeros will accept her? No, she's a foreign whore who doesn't know her place and/or an abomination born of incest

If she wants the throne she's going to have to climb over dead children to get it. That's the choice and the test, otherwise the author is going easy on her. She didnt start out as evil and she definitely doesn't see herself that way, but some melted swords are more important to her than human life. People have a legitimate reason to not want her as queen and I'm sure she'll give them more reason beyond prejudices against her gender. She's not a victim.

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If she wants the throne she's going to have to climb over dead children to get it. That's the choice and the test, otherwise the author is going easy on her. She didnt start out as evil and she definitely doesn't see herself that way, but some melted swords are more important to her than human life. People have a legitimate reason to not want her as queen and I'm sure she'll give them more reason beyond prejudices against her gender. She's not a victim.

I'm sure one could say Henry Tudor or William of Orange were utterly evil, because people died at their hands.  But, we don't remember them that way.   I do think Dany will fail, so she will be remembered as a monster.  But, it won't be true.

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10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm sure one could say Henry Tudor or William of Orange were utterly evil, because people died at their hands.  But, we don't remember them that way.   I do think Dany will fail, so she will be remembered as a monster.  But, it won't be true.

It's fantasy, everything is dialed up to 11 so the historical comparisons are pretty tame. Why do you keep trying to soften this character? She's always been over the top. The stallion that mounts (fucks) the world has to deliver in a big way.

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's fantasy, everything is dialed up to 11 so the historical comparisons are pretty tame. Why do you keep trying to soften this character? She's always been over the top. The stallion that mounts (fucks) the world has to deliver in a big way.

Maybe she will exterminate people for shit and giggles, but why would she?

Where is the evidence that she is any more brutal than any other player of the Game of Thrones?

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On 8/8/2019 at 3:17 PM, SeanF said:

Maybe she will exterminate people for shit and giggles, but why would she?

Where is the evidence that she is any more brutal than any other player of the Game of Thrones?

Normal brutality would be enough for any player...but not for the dragon.

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Back on topic, 

Independence for the North could make sense if they did not place Bran as King of the whole kingdoms. Both things seem very unlikely to happen at the same time. 

As stated, the North may have issues with following some foreign kings. They have said so and it´s understandable. But they would not have issues following Ned Stark´s boy. Bran would be the logical heir for the King in the North position. And if Bran now wants to be the king, he would have both the right name and the support from the North. Sansa would be seen as some kind of traitor because she had been married to both Tyrion and Bolton. One was a foreigner, the other the North´s public enemy. Plus, Sansa has been politically very tied with The Vale which does not look like a very independent position. I know she helped restore the North but she did so with a foreign army. She is also much more Tully like. The North would likely enjoy Arya more then Sansa. And they would never favour Sansa over Bran. 

I believe the show did a "cool and bad ass" thing with either or both Bran and Sansa. 

I suspect Bran is going to be much more tied to the North. As far as we know he will need to stay and turn into a tree. Maybe at Winterfell but I don´t see it being at Kings Landing. 

As for Sansa, it makes sense for her to end up with lots of power. But I kind of see her with a very big chance to end up as a Queen regent with Tyrion. They may still be married in the books and their union may be a very welcome one for all other kingdoms. It may be awesome to have Starks and Lannisters at peace and sharing power. I can see all houses willing to support that. If they will have kids or not is something else. But I see them as very possible regents at the end. 

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The North wanted independence because they consistently got screwed over by the Iron Throne throughout the last several years, are regarded as uncivilized savages for having a different culture and customs, had two of their liege lords dishonorably killed, and almost got wiped out fighting off an apocalyptic event with practically no help from the rest of the realm (except the Vale) which everyone else benefited massively from despite their lack of contribution. Moreover, even Dany, an important ally who helped them fight off a world-ending event ended up screwing them over by forcing their traumatized and weary men into a war they weren't ready for, because she couldn't wait a week for the rest of Cersei's allies to abandon her. Why on earth wouldn't they want independence after the trauma, betrayal and loss they've suffered?

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On 8/23/2019 at 4:56 PM, WolfOfWinter said:

The North wanted independence because they consistently got screwed over by the Iron Throne throughout the last several years, are regarded as uncivilized savages for having a different culture and customs, had two of their liege lords dishonorably killed, and almost got wiped out fighting off an apocalyptic event with practically no help from the rest of the realm (except the Vale) which everyone else benefited massively from despite their lack of contribution. Moreover, even Dany, an important ally who helped them fight off a world-ending event ended up screwing them over by forcing their traumatized and weary men into a war they weren't ready for, because she couldn't wait a week for the rest of Cersei's allies to abandon her. Why on earth wouldn't they want independence after the trauma, betrayal and loss they've suffered?

And in the end did the Northmen needed to rest when it was a one sided one person attack defeated Kingslanding? The North for all their claims of being wronged by everyone sure need everyone to aid them. Plus, how will they build and trust one another remember they betrayed one another? 

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Posted (edited)

Sansa character has been convincing everyone she's more intelligent than everyone because Arya said she's the most clever person a teenagers ever met without evidence. She has no respect for anyone's opinions and speaks to everyone in a condescending tone, ungrateful for any help because I wished Dany took her army and leave the xenophobic, rascist, contradictory North to go back to Essos. I believe Jon was correct in season seven and eight to not trust Sansa who never trust his leadership or supported him ever. She has treated him as a bastard like Catelyn did and hated him. Bigger question is she didn't even fight for the North like Dany did risking it all by even picking up a sword, in which she hid even when Jon said every woman and child should train against the Night King and his forces?

That scene to claim Northern independence made me cringe so hard because the claim they suffered the most is ludicrous? Everybody has suffered and who judges one over the other? Yara lost her whole family, Dorne lost their whole family, Robin of the Vale lost his whole family, Gendry never had a chance of family and goes on and on but the North suffered the most so they get independence. Let's not mention that some of the suffering the North endured is by the betrayal of other Northern houses. How do we know this is the sentiments through all the Northern houses that th st want a queen to rule them when most of their leaders are dead by following the Starks? Whatever!

Edited by terloublag
Grammar

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6 hours ago, terloublag said:

And in the end did the Northmen needed to rest when it was a one sided one person attack defeated Kingslanding? The North for all their claims of being wronged by everyone sure need everyone to aid them. Plus, how will they build and trust one another remember they betrayed one another? 

You act as if The North or the Starks were the only ones who ever needed aid. I guess you must hate the Lannisters too considering they needed the Tyrells to bail them out with both food and armies. They needed the Freys and Boltons for the Red Wedding. You must also hate Dany for betraying a business deal to get her hand on a slave army (Unsullied), for needing the 13 of Qarth in order not to die in the desert and that her team struck a deal with slavers who went back on the deal and for needing the Greyjoy/Dorne/Tyrell fleets.

5 hours ago, terloublag said:

Sansa character has been convincing everyone she's more intelligent than everyone because Arya said she's the most clever person a teenagers ever met without evidence. She has no respect for anyone's opinions and speaks to everyone in a condescending tone, ungrateful for any help because I wished Dany took her army and leave the xenophobic, rascist, contradictory North to go back to Essos. I believe Jon was correct in season seven and eight to not trust Sansa who never trust his leadership or supported him ever. She has treated him as a bastard like Catelyn did and hated him. Bigger question is she didn't even fight for the North like Dany did risking it all by even picking up a sword, in which she hid even when Jon said every woman and child should train against the Night King and his forces?

So basically you are a Dany and Jon (and maybe Jonearys?) fan who signed up to complain about Sansa? And the North? Sansa never had to convince anyone she was smarter because no one ever listened to her. Including her idiot brother/cousin Jon who ignored her plea for more men (which caused her to write slimeball LF who she wanted out of her life), lost his head at the beginning of a battle by falling into a trap he was warned about and caused almost all of his troops to die. Everyone told him the invite from Dany/Tyrion was a trap and he promptly landed himself under house arrest when he got to Dragonstone. He gave away his Kingdom when there was NO need for it. Then there is the entirety that is S8. And it was team Dany that caused the wall to fall, bringing the army of the dead into Westeros...you get no thanks for cleaning up a mess you created. Not to mention that Dany was stupid enough to continue to listen to Tyrion for 2 freaking Seasons, a man with clearly divided loyalties and whose plans always backfired.

Btw since you know how Sansa treated Jon when they were young, can you point me to the scene that is shown in? We only have Sansa's self-reflective statement which can mean anything from her ignoring him, to actually being mean to her being a little child who was a bit of a snob (which she was with pretty much everyone).

Picking up a sword to do what? Be another Samwell Tarly? I'm sure people who bitch about Sansa for being in the crypts would bitch just as much, if not more, if she had been outside fighting. Where she would be nothing but a hindrance that gets people killed or add herself to the undead army. It's hilarious to me that so many complain about Sansa hiding (but only because it's compared to Dany, go figure) but it's fine that Sam spend the entire fight crying on the ground and getting Edd killed. If that had been Sansa, oh boy would people bitch that she should have gone to the crypts.:rolleyes: And it's not like she didn't pick up a weapon to fight, they just decided to cut it out of the episode. I find Sansa in the crypts more believable than Dany fighting off wights despite never having picked up a sword during the entire show.

And maybe Sansa would have had time to train if she wasn't doing double duty. While Jon was taking strolls along the beach (he didn't even help mine dragon glass), Bran smoked weed and Arya smirked all day...Sansa was pulling double duty of being Lady of Winterfell and Regent of the North. Maybe she would have had time if any of her family members actually fulfilled their feudal duties and helped out. Arya would have been great for training children and women (due to her size). Bran could have used his skills to nip the whole LF thing in the bud so no one's time is wasted with that or thought of good defenses for the upcoming fight by going over Westerosi battle history. And maybe even helped out with administration since he does nothing but sit around all day anyway. But her family can't be bothered to help out at all so it all fell on her.

Lets face it, no character/family went through this show without needing help or being betrayed. And by the end no character escaped the mindboggling character assassinations, except those long dead. Dany (and Jon) were not better/worse than Sansa in that regard. Every character by the end was a freaking joke.

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I was recommended the books first last year and read them non stop and fell in love with this story. I just watched this show last month so I binged watched it and I would say that reading comments and joining the dialogue I realize I am late to the party. Watching it in a binge however made me realize why people took teams or sides when watching this fresh. I didn't get that invested to join squads of proclaimed a house sigil, but it seems everyone suffered in the end, but no more than the last two seasons of this show and indeed everyone character was a mirror of their former selves and became tropes. Thanks for your response.

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On 8/26/2019 at 2:11 PM, Mystical said:

 

Btw since you know how Sansa treated Jon when they were young, can you point me to the scene that is shown in? We only have Sansa's self-reflective statement which can mean anything from her ignoring him, to actually being mean to her being a little child who was a bit of a snob (which she was with pretty much everyone).

They kinda ignored the Stark children’s dynamics in the show and season 1 Sansa was toned down a lot, but in the books Sansa ALWAYS corrects her siblings whenever they call Jon their brother, and usually references him being a bastard like it’s a bad thing whenever he’s brought up. She’s not as bad as Cat, but she def treats him/thinks of him like he’s less than (until she gains perspective in book 4).

She also calls Arya “Arya Horseface”, and her and Jeyne Poole make fun of/bully Arya constantly. 

It’s why so many people hate Sansa, she makes a horrible first impression and she’s not even remotely sympathetic until book 2, and by then it’s too late for a lot of people.

Doesn’t help D&D botched her character down the stretch (like they did everyone else’s), and made her revert back to being unlikeable (but without any consequences this time) to subvert expectations.

It really is crazy how many major characters they ruined in the final few seasons.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, King Wyman said:

They kinda ignored the Stark children’s dynamics in the show and season 1 Sansa was toned down a lot, but in the books Sansa ALWAYS corrects her siblings whenever they call Jon their brother, and usually references him being a bastard like it’s a bad thing whenever he’s brought up. She’s not as bad as Cat, but she def treats him/thinks of him like he’s less than (until she gains perspective in book 4).

She also calls Arya “Arya Horseface”, and her and Jeyne Poole make fun of/bully Arya constantly. 

It’s why so many people hate Sansa, she makes a horrible first impression and she’s not even remotely sympathetic until book 2, and by then it’s too late for a lot of people.

Doesn’t help D&D botched her character down the stretch (like they did everyone else’s), and made her revert back to being unlikeable (but without any consequences this time) to subvert expectations.

It really is crazy how many major characters they ruined in the final few seasons.

So was Sansa in book 1 a Hate Sink (a character deliberately written to be unlikeable) or a Scrappy (a character widely disliked by the fandom regardless of the author's intentions, think Jar-Jar)?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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