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Angel Eyes

So, remind me why independence for the North is so important.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So was Sansa in book 1 a Hate Sink (a character deliberately written to be unlikeable) or a Scrappy (a character widely disliked by the fandom regardless of the author's intentions, think Jar-Jar)?

Probably deliberate, he wrote her to be an immature, spoiled princess type that has all her dreams go to shit in order for her to grow up and realize how wrong/misguided she was. But first she’s gotta play the spoiled princess.

George knew what he was doing by having her be mean to the far more sympathetic/likeable Jon and Arya.

He knew what he was doing when he had her lie about Micha to protect Joffrey, and then later when she told Cersei all of Ned’s plans because she was so desperate to marry Joffrey and become queen. 

He wanted us to go “man Sansa sucks” in book 1, and then say “damn Sansa you’ve come a long way” in book 4.

Kinda like Jamie, but less redemption-ey.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

They kinda ignored the Stark children’s dynamics in the show and season 1 Sansa was toned down a lot, but in the books Sansa ALWAYS corrects her siblings whenever they call Jon their brother, and usually references him being a bastard like it’s a bad thing whenever he’s brought up. She’s not as bad as Cat, but she def treats him/thinks of him like he’s less than (until she gains perspective in book 4).

She mostly calls him HALF-BROTHER, which guess what...IS CORRECT. I don't get the bitching about Sansa in that regard, her siblings treat Jon like a bastard when it suits them. Heck Jon was so insulted when Robb did it he had murder fantasies later on. But Sansa is the only one in the family (other than Cat) to get shit from fans for treating Jon differently. :rolleyes: Even freaking Arya thinks of him as a bastard and treats him as such when the occasion calls for it (see for example her not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit). And none of this was in the show. Which one are you arguing for or against?

19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

She also calls Arya “Arya Horseface”, and her and Jeyne Poole make fun of/bully Arya constantly. 

I wish mixing up books and show would stop. It makes discussions too confused. This didn't happen in the show. My reply was 100% about the show, why bring the books into it when that wasn't the discussion?

19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

It’s why so many people hate Sansa, she makes a horrible first impression and she’s not even remotely sympathetic until book 2, and by then it’s too late for a lot of people.

I never hated her. I might have rolled my eyes sometimes but hate? I don't have hate for 11/13 years olds unless they are actual hell spawns (see Joffrey). Sansa was entirely the product of how she was raised. That was NOT her choice. Her parents decided to groom her as soon as she came out of the womb, raised her in a bubble with fairy tales and didn't bother to teach her about reality. A father who takes his daughters to a strange city and then completely neglects his eldest, uses her for his own selfish reasons and betroths her to a psycho family. Why on Earth would I hate the child for that? I blame the parents, the adults. Anyone who hates a child for being successfully groomed might want to visit a professional because clearly they got mental issues.

19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

Doesn’t help D&D botched her character down the stretch (like they did everyone else’s), and made her revert back to being unlikeable (but without any consequences this time) to subvert expectations.

D&D botched her from S1 on. She's had it worse than some characters (though the Starks in general got the worst of it thanks to Lannister bias from D&D). I didn't find her unlikable (she's a plot not a character, they all are), I found her in line with as to how a person with so much suffered abuse might turn out. Being nice only got her abused on the show. Best to ditch it and get straight to the point. And I personally prefer a straight shooter.

Edited by Mystical

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Mystical said:

She mostly calls him HALF-BROTHER, which guess what...IS CORRECT. I don't get the bitching about Sansa in that regard, her siblings treat Jon like a bastard when it suits them. Heck Jon was so insulted when Robb did it he had murder fantasies later on. But Sansa is the only one in the family (other than Cat) to get shit from fans for treating Jon differently. :rolleyes: Even freaking Arya thinks of him as a bastard and treats him as such when the occasion calls for it (see for example her not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit). And none of this was in the show. Which one are you arguing for or against?

Since you brought up the books, Sansa calls Jon a bastard in the first Arya chapter in AGOT, to which Arya says “he’s our brother. 

Quote

“Jon says he looks like a girl,” Arya said. Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.” “He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

And in the books, none of Jon’s other siblings make him feel less of a brother as much as Sansa does. In fact, none (apart from Sansa) make him feel anything but a brother. Jon’s recollection of his siblings indicate that Sansa was the most distant to him and the one that reminded him of his outsider status among his siblings.

Quote

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.

As to the one instance Rob mentions Jon’s bastard status, it was not with malice... he was just repeating what Cat told him that Jon can’t inherit WF because of his bastard status. And Jon did not have “murder fantasies”. He remembers that episode when he is sparring with Iron Emmett, and loses himself remembering that moment. I believe it was his awakening the dragon moment.

As to Arya thinking of him as a bastard, it was again, not out of malice but just factually. And nowhere is is stated that Arya called him half-brother or bastard to his face. Arya is closest to Jon and sees him as her own brother. She misses him most of all her siblings. And you have to be joking about Arya “not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit”. How is this even an argument??

13 hours ago, Mystical said:

never hated her. I might have rolled my eyes sometimes but hate? I don't have hate for 11/13 years olds unless they are actual hell spawns (see Joffrey). Sansa was entirely the product of how she was raised. That was NOT her choice. Her parents decided to groom her as soon as she came out of the womb, raised her in a bubble with fairy tales and didn't bother to teach her about reality. A father who takes his daughters to a strange city and then completely neglects his eldest, uses her for his own selfish reasons and betroths her to a psycho family. Why on Earth would I hate the child for that? I blame the parents, the adults. Anyone who hates a child for being successfully groomed might want to visit a professional because clearly they got mental issues.

Oh there’s been a lot of dislike for Sansa based on the impression she made in AGOT. And I agree with @King Wyman, she was purposely made dislikable in the first book by Martin... she was the foil to the heroic Arya. Sansa is definitely the least likable Stark in the first book. In Martin’s initial outline he even had a betraying her family... which she sort of did when she spilled Ned’s plans to Cersei. However, in later books she grows on you and you begin rooting for her just like the other Starks. 

As to Ned neglecting Sansa, nowhere in the books does it state that or even imply that. We are given more insight into Ned’s relationship and closeness to Arya but that doesn’t mean he neglected Sansa. He may not have been able to understand her but that doesn’t mean he “neglected” her. As to your argument that he betrothed her to Joffrey for his “own selfish reasons”, FYI, in the books, Ned was against her betrothal to Joffrey, it was Cat who pushed for it. You got the parents confused. See below quote.

Quote

Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face.” “Honors?” Ned laughed bitterly. “In his eyes, yes,” she said. “And in yours?” “And in mine,” she blazed, angry now. Why couldn’t he see? “He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?” “Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,” Ned said. “And Joffrey … Joffrey is …” She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”

And besides Sansa was only too happy to marry Joffrey, even after the incident at the Trident. 

Sansa has definitely become much more likable in subsequent books and in one of her Alyane chapters in AFFC she even thinks fondly of Jon and wishes she could see him. But as children, Sansa among all the Stark children, was definitely the most like Cat in her treatment of Jon. 

Edited by teej6

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, teej6 said:

Since you brought up the books, Sansa calls Jon a bastard in the first Arya chapter in AGOT, to which Arya says “he’s our brother.

And in the books, none of Jon’s other siblings make him feel less of a brother as much as Sansa does. In fact, none (apart from Sansa) make him feel anything but a brother. Jon’s recollection of his siblings indicate that Sansa was the most distant to him and the one that reminded him of his outsider status among his siblings.

ALL of them have used the word bastard in regards to Jon. And they have certainly no issues with him being treated as such on certain occasions. Most of the time she calls him half-brother (you even put the quote up where Jon says so and he says ALWAYS lmao), which I don't know what to tell you but HE IS. And Sansa might have been the most distant but Jon never thought about murdering her the way he did Robb after Robb called him bastard. Besides Sansa didn't raise herself, if you want to blame anyone for the distance, blame the freaking parents.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

As to the one instance Rob mentions Jon’s bastard status, it was not with malice... he was just repeating what Cat told him that Jon can’t inherit WF because of his bastard status. And Jon did not have “murder fantasies”. He remembers that episode when he is sparring with Iron Emmett, and loses himself remembering that moment. I believe it was his awakening the dragon moment.

As to Arya thinking of him as a bastard, it was again, not out of malice but just factually. And nowhere is is stated that Arya called him half-brother or bastard to his face. Arya is closest to Jon and sees him as her own brother. She misses him most of all her siblings. And you have to be joking about Arya “not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit”. How is this even an argument??

I don't care if it's the dragon or whatnot. It doesn't matter. Fact is Jon has a giant reaction to being called bastard by Robb to the point where he imagines murdering him. That's all that matters to me. He never has such thoughts about Sansa (her being distant is the worst memory he has of her) and Jon is damn good at remembering slights made against him. Jon in Book 1 was offended by everything, so if Sansa's treatment of him had been THAT bad, we would have known.

Heck you can even do a search on 'bastard brother' and find a lot of that is BRAN.

So why do you excuse it for every Stark child except Sansa? You say none of them did it out of malice but Sansa did? Talk about whitewashing the other kids. No wait, it's blackwashing Sansa. Do you think Sansa does it out of actual malice? Or because she was groomed in the social ways better than her other siblings (who still were groomed hence them thinking him a bastard too) and she is closest to her mother? That's not malice. And why would I be joking about Arya? The girl has zero decorum and no shits to give about what's appropriate. She was rude to the royal family when she felt like it yet she didn't make a peep about Jon being exiled from the family table during dinner. She doesn't even think about it from what I remember.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

As to Ned neglecting Sansa, nowhere in the books does it state that or even imply that. We are given more insight into Ned’s relationship and closeness to Arya but that doesn’t mean he neglected Sansa. He may not have been able to understand her but that doesn’t mean he “neglected” her. As to your argument that he betrothed her to Joffrey for his “own selfish reasons”, FYI, in the books, Ned was against her betrothal to Joffrey, it was Cat who pushed for it. You got the parents confused. See below quote.

How can you not think she was neglected and used by her father? The most Ned thinks of Sansa is that 'she always does as she is told', like a good obedient woman in their world. He never takes the time to talk to her like he does Arya. He can't be bothered to find Sansa a music teacher in KL but he finds a trainer for Arya. I wonder what's easier to find in KL, a music teacher or the First Sword of Bravos? He never sits down and has a talk with her the way he does Arya. I don't care why Ned is neglecting Sansa, only that he does. Heck Joff tells the Hound to escort Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tourney. Freaking Joff shows more concern for Sansa's well being than her own father. Why does Ned never have any guards for his daughter(s)?

Ned is the monarch of the family, if he doesn't want Sansa betrothed to Joff then she won't be no matter what Cat says. And Ned is the one who, once he decided to stick with Robert and investigate Jon Arryn's death, to keep the betrothal up. He already knew by that point how vile Cersei and Joff were and he didn't care. The betrothal was advantageous for his own ends so he put his daughter in a precarious situation. He chose Robert and Jon over his own daughter and that is actually worse than simple neglect.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

And besides Sansa was only too happy to marry Joffrey, even after the incident at the Trident.

Of course she was. She was GROOMED to do so. Good grief, do people really not understand the world this takes place in?

Edited by Mystical

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4 hours ago, Mystical said:

ALL of them have used the word bastard in regards to Jon. And they have certainly no issues with him being treated as such on certain occasions. Most of the time she calls him half-brother (you even put the quote up where Jon says so and he says ALWAYS lmao), which I don't know what to tell you but HE IS. And Sansa might have been the most distant but Jon never thought about murdering her the way he did Robb after Robb called him bastard. Besides Sansa didn't raise herself, if you want to blame anyone for the distance, blame the freaking parents.

I don't care if it's the dragon or whatnot. It doesn't matter. Fact is Jon has a giant reaction to being called bastard by Robb to the point where he imagines murdering him. That's all that matters to me. He never has such thoughts about Sansa (her being distant is the worst memory he has of her) and Jon is damn good at remembering slights made against him. Jon in Book 1 was offended by everything, so if Sansa's treatment of him had been THAT bad, we would have known.

Heck you can even do a search on 'bastard brother' and find a lot of that is BRAN.

So why do you excuse it for every Stark child except Sansa? You say none of them did it out of malice but Sansa did? Talk about whitewashing the other kids. No wait, it's blackwashing Sansa. Do you think Sansa does it out of actual malice? Or because she was groomed in the social ways better than her other siblings (who still were groomed hence them thinking him a bastard too) and she is closest to her mother? That's not malice. And why would I be joking about Arya? The girl has zero decorum and no shits to give about what's appropriate. She was rude to the royal family when she felt like it yet she didn't make a peep about Jon being exiled from the family table during dinner. She doesn't even think about it from what I remember.

How can you not think she was neglected and used by her father? The most Ned thinks of Sansa is that 'she always does as she is told', like a good obedient woman in their world. He never takes the time to talk to her like he does Arya. He can't be bothered to find Sansa a music teacher in KL but he finds a trainer for Arya. I wonder what's easier to find in KL, a music teacher or the First Sword of Bravos? He never sits down and has a talk with her the way he does Arya. I don't care why Ned is neglecting Sansa, only that he does. Heck Joff tells the Hound to escort Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tourney. Freaking Joff shows more concern for Sansa's well being than her own father. Why does Ned never have any guards for his daughter(s)?

Ned is the monarch of the family, if he doesn't want Sansa betrothed to Joff then she won't be no matter what Cat says. And Ned is the one who, once he decided to stick with Robert and investigate Jon Arryn's death, to keep the betrothal up. He already knew by that point how vile Cersei and Joff were and he didn't care. The betrothal was advantageous for his own ends so he put his daughter in a precarious situation. He chose Robert and Jon over his own daughter and that is actually worse than simple neglect.

Of course she was. She was GROOMED to do so. Good grief, do people really not understand the world this takes place in?

All I see above is your imagined version of how things transpired. I quoted the text of how Jon thinks of his siblings... he singles out Sansa for the way she treated him and referred to him, which is not positive. So you have Jon’s thoughts as proof for Sansa being the only one of his siblings whose words and thoughts were hurtful to him.  You can twist and imagine the text to fit your fanfic as much as you want but there is no argument here. Read the books, there’s no dispute in the fact that Sansa was the Stark sibling that took after Cat in her treatment of Jon.

As to the other Stark siblings referring to Jon as half-brother or bastard brother, I don’t have to do a search to know it was done matter of factly, and besides none of them apparently did that to Jon’s face with the exception of Sansa or else his thoughts wouldn’t have singled out Sansa.

And I honestly don’t know where the hell you are getting the “Jon wanted to murder Robb” bit. Again, I quoted the text for you above. The only time he remembers Robb implying he’s a bastard is when he is fighting with Iron Emmett. In that moment, Jon is going through a lot of emotions and he loses/forgets himself... this does not naturally translate to he “wanted to murder Robb”. He has a recollection of an unsettling memory and his desire for WF and guilt of wanting it causes him to lose his temper, that’s it. 

As to you interpretation of Ned “neglecting” Sansa, again this is your fanfic or something that you got from the show. In the books, we are not shown any instance of Ned neglecting Sansa. Sansa being escorted back by the Hound?? This is your argument for neglect?? Jeez. Firstly, there wasn’t much of “escorting back” and secondly Septa Mordane was with Sansa and her chaperone. She was the one to escort Sansa back, which she didn’t because she got drunk and passed out. But go ahead blame Ned for it. 

If we have more chapters with Ned and Arya that’s because Martin wrote it that way. Arya had the heroic arc in AGOT. You really have to do better than the awful examples you have if you are going to prove neglect on Ned’s part. Newsflash! you can’t coz there isn’t any.

And read the text I quoted, Ned was overruled by Cat and Maester Luwin regarding going to KL and giving Sansa’s hand in marriage to Joff. Did he give in to Cat’s demands easily? Perhaps. I don’t even know what “Ned is the monarch of the family” means. We are shown Ned’s dynamics with Cat, they are more like equals even though they are a medieval couple. In the very same text I quoted, you see Ned acceding to Cat’s demands in some instances (go to KL, be the Hand, betroth Sansa to Joff, send Jon to the Wall) and Cat acceding to some of Ned’s demands (stay in WF with Robb and Rickon). Cat is not a pushover and Ned respects her and in the case of Sansa, Ned agrees to his wife’s request/demand despite his reservations. Couples do that you know, especially modern-day couples (and Ned and Cat’s relationship is more like modern-day couples than medieval ones). This does not mean Ned “neglected” Sansa. And FYI, Ned does finally decide to break the engagement between Sansa and Joff, it’s your precious Sansa who runs to Cersei for help when she hears her father’s intent. 

Please read the books and provide better arguments than Jon wanting to murder Robb, or Ned neglecting Sansa. Anyway, this thread is not about this subject and the only reason I digressed is to respond to your factually wrong comments about the books.  So ending this discussion as I do hate debating someone who provides nonsensical arguments with no textual evidence. 

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On 8/30/2019 at 7:12 AM, teej6 said:

All I see above is your imagined version of how things transpired. I quoted the text of how Jon thinks of his siblings... he singles out Sansa for the way she treated him and referred to him, which is not positive. So you have Jon’s thoughts as proof for Sansa being the only one of his siblings whose words and thoughts were hurtful to him.

He has a particularly painful memory of Robb pulling rank on him. So you're wrong. 

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The two greatest wars in the history of Westeros started off mainly because the North wasn't independent from the South management.

1- When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. If the North was independent, Rhaegar probably wouldn't even know about Lyanna, or they wouldn't even arrange that marriage between Lyanna and Robert. And even if someone kidnaps their daughter, they wouldn't go there unarmed and ask for justice from a mad king, they would go there with their army, and they wouldn't executed easily and in that way.

2- When Robert and his family came to the North. When they see the incest between the Queen and her brother. If the North was independent, they would never come to the North, and they wouldn't care about the incest in the South, so there wouldn't be any execution again.

So, yes independence of the North is kind of important when you think all of these.

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On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 2:12 PM, teej6 said:

All I see above is your imagined version of how things transpired. I quoted the text of how Jon thinks of his siblings... he singles out Sansa for the way she treated him and referred to him, which is not positive. So you have Jon’s thoughts as proof for Sansa being the only one of his siblings whose words and thoughts were hurtful to him.  You can twist and imagine the text to fit your fanfic as much as you want but there is no argument here. Read the books, there’s no dispute in the fact that Sansa was the Stark sibling that took after Cat in her treatment of Jon.

As to the other Stark siblings referring to Jon as half-brother or bastard brother, I don’t have to do a search to know it was done matter of factly, and besides none of them apparently did that to Jon’s face with the exception of Sansa or else his thoughts wouldn’t have singled out Sansa.

And I honestly don’t know where the hell you are getting the “Jon wanted to murder Robb” bit. Again, I quoted the text for you above. The only time he remembers Robb implying he’s a bastard is when he is fighting with Iron Emmett. In that moment, Jon is going through a lot of emotions and he loses/forgets himself... this does not naturally translate to he “wanted to murder Robb”. He has a recollection of an unsettling memory and his desire for WF and guilt of wanting it causes him to lose his temper, that’s it. 

As to you interpretation of Ned “neglecting” Sansa, again this is your fanfic or something that you got from the show. In the books, we are not shown any instance of Ned neglecting Sansa. Sansa being escorted back by the Hound?? This is your argument for neglect?? Jeez. Firstly, there wasn’t much of “escorting back” and secondly Septa Mordane was with Sansa and her chaperone. She was the one to escort Sansa back, which she didn’t because she got drunk and passed out. But go ahead blame Ned for it. 

If we have more chapters with Ned and Arya that’s because Martin wrote it that way. Arya had the heroic arc in AGOT. You really have to do better than the awful examples you have if you are going to prove neglect on Ned’s part. Newsflash! you can’t coz there isn’t any.

And read the text I quoted, Ned was overruled by Cat and Maester Luwin regarding going to KL and giving Sansa’s hand in marriage to Joff. Did he give in to Cat’s demands easily? Perhaps. I don’t even know what “Ned is the monarch of the family” means. We are shown Ned’s dynamics with Cat, they are more like equals even though they are a medieval couple. In the very same text I quoted, you see Ned acceding to Cat’s demands in some instances (go to KL, be the Hand, betroth Sansa to Joff, send Jon to the Wall) and Cat acceding to some of Ned’s demands (stay in WF with Robb and Rickon). Cat is not a pushover and Ned respects her and in the case of Sansa, Ned agrees to his wife’s request/demand despite his reservations. Couples do that you know, especially modern-day couples (and Ned and Cat’s relationship is more like modern-day couples than medieval ones). This does not mean Ned “neglected” Sansa. And FYI, Ned does finally decide to break the engagement between Sansa and Joff, it’s your precious Sansa who runs to Cersei for help when she hears her father’s intent. 

Please read the books and provide better arguments than Jon wanting to murder Robb, or Ned neglecting Sansa. Anyway, this thread is not about this subject and the only reason I digressed is to respond to your factually wrong comments about the books.  So ending this discussion as I do hate debating someone who provides nonsensical arguments with no textual evidence. 

You guys discussing a lot about Ned having a choice over Sansa......

IT WAS THE F**** KING!!!!!!! LOOOOL

Good luck saying no to the king!

Yes, they could. But Cat pressed Ned for many reasons but maybe also because Cat was the more dinastic and more used to court intrigue compared to Ned. Cat had an understanding that it was dangerous but it would be even more dangerous to not do it.

If the Lannisters were getting ready to start killing great houses, someone needed to get close to the king and try to start undermining them. The way to get close to Robert was not to say NO to his son. Besides....Joffrey was still seen as legitimate and Sansa had a proposal to be THE QUEEN!!!! Come on....what parents would not enjoy that? See if Olenna was not ready to try it also.

Being THE QUEEN is the one top thing that any girl could achieve in the known world.

How could a father possibly say no to that??? And how could a mother not want that??? And how could a young noble girl not be absolutely amazed by the prospect of becoming THE QUEEN??? Watch what Maergery was willing to do in order to get there and you get a very good and plausible exemple. Most of those girls would KILL to get there.

Even that the Starks are already lords of Winterfell.....there is a BIG DIFFERENCE from that to the whole 7 Kingdoms. And who is to say they will be unable to reason with Joffrey? They still do not know the extent of Joffrey´s character. They also do not expect Joffrey to be king in the next couple years, so there is time to educate him. They absolutely did not plan for Sansa to be left alone in KL.

Yes, they did lots of mistakes and wrong judgements. But supporting Sansa for Queen was something that made perfect sense for all of them.

One can always ask why did Cat take Tyrion and if she did not think about her daughters. But remember Cat did not expect them to kill Robert so fast. We did see Roberts reaction to Cat´s actions and he did not cal for Cat to be put in jail. Therefore Cat was perfectly safe to do as she did if Robert did not die. And in the end, their greatest mistake was not understanding how far and how fast Cersei was ready to go. Ned should have been able to get some allies between Renly and LF. We now know how everything went wrong but it was not a sure thing. Ned came in perfect range of securing power and getting things under his control. It was possible. The Lannisters did not have everyone ready to blindly follow them.

Edited by RSasoiaf

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I kind of get the impression that because of the season five Ramsay/Sansa story arc, David and Dan feel that Sansa becoming Queen would have redeemed the past three seasons revolving Sansa story arc. Ultimately it did not, given how bad the finale was, Sansa becoming the queen of the North and not have other kingdoms go independent seems like a cop-out. You at least think that the Ironborne would object to Sansa declaration of northern independence and follow through with their own claim of independence, given that they had rebelled against the Iron throne twice.  

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