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Angel Eyes

So, remind me why independence for the North is so important.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So was Sansa in book 1 a Hate Sink (a character deliberately written to be unlikeable) or a Scrappy (a character widely disliked by the fandom regardless of the author's intentions, think Jar-Jar)?

Probably deliberate, he wrote her to be an immature, spoiled princess type that has all her dreams go to shit in order for her to grow up and realize how wrong/misguided she was. But first she’s gotta play the spoiled princess.

George knew what he was doing by having her be mean to the far more sympathetic/likeable Jon and Arya.

He knew what he was doing when he had her lie about Micha to protect Joffrey, and then later when she told Cersei all of Ned’s plans because she was so desperate to marry Joffrey and become queen. 

He wanted us to go “man Sansa sucks” in book 1, and then say “damn Sansa you’ve come a long way” in book 4.

Kinda like Jamie, but less redemption-ey.

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19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

They kinda ignored the Stark children’s dynamics in the show and season 1 Sansa was toned down a lot, but in the books Sansa ALWAYS corrects her siblings whenever they call Jon their brother, and usually references him being a bastard like it’s a bad thing whenever he’s brought up. She’s not as bad as Cat, but she def treats him/thinks of him like he’s less than (until she gains perspective in book 4).

She mostly calls him HALF-BROTHER, which guess what...IS CORRECT. I don't get the bitching about Sansa in that regard, her siblings treat Jon like a bastard when it suits them. Heck Jon was so insulted when Robb did it he had murder fantasies later on. But Sansa is the only one in the family (other than Cat) to get shit from fans for treating Jon differently. :rolleyes: Even freaking Arya thinks of him as a bastard and treats him as such when the occasion calls for it (see for example her not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit). And none of this was in the show. Which one are you arguing for or against?

19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

She also calls Arya “Arya Horseface”, and her and Jeyne Poole make fun of/bully Arya constantly. 

I wish mixing up books and show would stop. It makes discussions too confused. This didn't happen in the show. My reply was 100% about the show, why bring the books into it when that wasn't the discussion?

19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

It’s why so many people hate Sansa, she makes a horrible first impression and she’s not even remotely sympathetic until book 2, and by then it’s too late for a lot of people.

I never hated her. I might have rolled my eyes sometimes but hate? I don't have hate for 11/13 years olds unless they are actual hell spawns (see Joffrey). Sansa was entirely the product of how she was raised. That was NOT her choice. Her parents decided to groom her as soon as she came out of the womb, raised her in a bubble with fairy tales and didn't bother to teach her about reality. A father who takes his daughters to a strange city and then completely neglects his eldest, uses her for his own selfish reasons and betroths her to a psycho family. Why on Earth would I hate the child for that? I blame the parents, the adults. Anyone who hates a child for being successfully groomed might want to visit a professional because clearly they got mental issues.

19 hours ago, King Wyman said:

Doesn’t help D&D botched her character down the stretch (like they did everyone else’s), and made her revert back to being unlikeable (but without any consequences this time) to subvert expectations.

D&D botched her from S1 on. She's had it worse than some characters (though the Starks in general got the worst of it thanks to Lannister bias from D&D). I didn't find her unlikable (she's a plot not a character, they all are), I found her in line with as to how a person with so much suffered abuse might turn out. Being nice only got her abused on the show. Best to ditch it and get straight to the point. And I personally prefer a straight shooter.

Edited by Mystical

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13 hours ago, Mystical said:

She mostly calls him HALF-BROTHER, which guess what...IS CORRECT. I don't get the bitching about Sansa in that regard, her siblings treat Jon like a bastard when it suits them. Heck Jon was so insulted when Robb did it he had murder fantasies later on. But Sansa is the only one in the family (other than Cat) to get shit from fans for treating Jon differently. :rolleyes: Even freaking Arya thinks of him as a bastard and treats him as such when the occasion calls for it (see for example her not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit). And none of this was in the show. Which one are you arguing for or against?

Since you brought up the books, Sansa calls Jon a bastard in the first Arya chapter in AGOT, to which Arya says “he’s our brother. 

Quote

“Jon says he looks like a girl,” Arya said. Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.” “He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

And in the books, none of Jon’s other siblings make him feel less of a brother as much as Sansa does. In fact, none (apart from Sansa) make him feel anything but a brother. Jon’s recollection of his siblings indicate that Sansa was the most distant to him and the one that reminded him of his outsider status among his siblings.

Quote

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.

As to the one instance Rob mentions Jon’s bastard status, it was not with malice... he was just repeating what Cat told him that Jon can’t inherit WF because of his bastard status. And Jon did not have “murder fantasies”. He remembers that episode when he is sparring with Iron Emmett, and loses himself remembering that moment. I believe it was his awakening the dragon moment.

As to Arya thinking of him as a bastard, it was again, not out of malice but just factually. And nowhere is is stated that Arya called him half-brother or bastard to his face. Arya is closest to Jon and sees him as her own brother. She misses him most of all her siblings. And you have to be joking about Arya “not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit”. How is this even an argument??

13 hours ago, Mystical said:

never hated her. I might have rolled my eyes sometimes but hate? I don't have hate for 11/13 years olds unless they are actual hell spawns (see Joffrey). Sansa was entirely the product of how she was raised. That was NOT her choice. Her parents decided to groom her as soon as she came out of the womb, raised her in a bubble with fairy tales and didn't bother to teach her about reality. A father who takes his daughters to a strange city and then completely neglects his eldest, uses her for his own selfish reasons and betroths her to a psycho family. Why on Earth would I hate the child for that? I blame the parents, the adults. Anyone who hates a child for being successfully groomed might want to visit a professional because clearly they got mental issues.

Oh there’s been a lot of dislike for Sansa based on the impression she made in AGOT. And I agree with @King Wyman, she was purposely made dislikable in the first book by Martin... she was the foil to the heroic Arya. Sansa is definitely the least likable Stark in the first book. In Martin’s initial outline he even had a betraying her family... which she sort of did when she spilled Ned’s plans to Cersei. However, in later books she grows on you and you begin rooting for her just like the other Starks. 

As to Ned neglecting Sansa, nowhere in the books does it state that or even imply that. We are given more insight into Ned’s relationship and closeness to Arya but that doesn’t mean he neglected Sansa. He may not have been able to understand her but that doesn’t mean he “neglected” her. As to your argument that he betrothed her to Joffrey for his “own selfish reasons”, FYI, in the books, Ned was against her betrothal to Joffrey, it was Cat who pushed for it. You got the parents confused. See below quote.

Quote

Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face.” “Honors?” Ned laughed bitterly. “In his eyes, yes,” she said. “And in yours?” “And in mine,” she blazed, angry now. Why couldn’t he see? “He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?” “Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,” Ned said. “And Joffrey … Joffrey is …” She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”

And besides Sansa was only too happy to marry Joffrey, even after the incident at the Trident. 

Sansa has definitely become much more likable in subsequent books and in one of her Alyane chapters in AFFC she even thinks fondly of Jon and wishes she could see him. But as children, Sansa among all the Stark children, was definitely the most like Cat in her treatment of Jon. 

Edited by teej6

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4 hours ago, teej6 said:

Since you brought up the books, Sansa calls Jon a bastard in the first Arya chapter in AGOT, to which Arya says “he’s our brother.

And in the books, none of Jon’s other siblings make him feel less of a brother as much as Sansa does. In fact, none (apart from Sansa) make him feel anything but a brother. Jon’s recollection of his siblings indicate that Sansa was the most distant to him and the one that reminded him of his outsider status among his siblings.

ALL of them have used the word bastard in regards to Jon. And they have certainly no issues with him being treated as such on certain occasions. Most of the time she calls him half-brother (you even put the quote up where Jon says so and he says ALWAYS lmao), which I don't know what to tell you but HE IS. And Sansa might have been the most distant but Jon never thought about murdering her the way he did Robb after Robb called him bastard. Besides Sansa didn't raise herself, if you want to blame anyone for the distance, blame the freaking parents.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

As to the one instance Rob mentions Jon’s bastard status, it was not with malice... he was just repeating what Cat told him that Jon can’t inherit WF because of his bastard status. And Jon did not have “murder fantasies”. He remembers that episode when he is sparring with Iron Emmett, and loses himself remembering that moment. I believe it was his awakening the dragon moment.

As to Arya thinking of him as a bastard, it was again, not out of malice but just factually. And nowhere is is stated that Arya called him half-brother or bastard to his face. Arya is closest to Jon and sees him as her own brother. She misses him most of all her siblings. And you have to be joking about Arya “not saying anything or not being bothered by Jon being banished from the table when Royals come to visit”. How is this even an argument??

I don't care if it's the dragon or whatnot. It doesn't matter. Fact is Jon has a giant reaction to being called bastard by Robb to the point where he imagines murdering him. That's all that matters to me. He never has such thoughts about Sansa (her being distant is the worst memory he has of her) and Jon is damn good at remembering slights made against him. Jon in Book 1 was offended by everything, so if Sansa's treatment of him had been THAT bad, we would have known.

Heck you can even do a search on 'bastard brother' and find a lot of that is BRAN.

So why do you excuse it for every Stark child except Sansa? You say none of them did it out of malice but Sansa did? Talk about whitewashing the other kids. No wait, it's blackwashing Sansa. Do you think Sansa does it out of actual malice? Or because she was groomed in the social ways better than her other siblings (who still were groomed hence them thinking him a bastard too) and she is closest to her mother? That's not malice. And why would I be joking about Arya? The girl has zero decorum and no shits to give about what's appropriate. She was rude to the royal family when she felt like it yet she didn't make a peep about Jon being exiled from the family table during dinner. She doesn't even think about it from what I remember.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

As to Ned neglecting Sansa, nowhere in the books does it state that or even imply that. We are given more insight into Ned’s relationship and closeness to Arya but that doesn’t mean he neglected Sansa. He may not have been able to understand her but that doesn’t mean he “neglected” her. As to your argument that he betrothed her to Joffrey for his “own selfish reasons”, FYI, in the books, Ned was against her betrothal to Joffrey, it was Cat who pushed for it. You got the parents confused. See below quote.

How can you not think she was neglected and used by her father? The most Ned thinks of Sansa is that 'she always does as she is told', like a good obedient woman in their world. He never takes the time to talk to her like he does Arya. He can't be bothered to find Sansa a music teacher in KL but he finds a trainer for Arya. I wonder what's easier to find in KL, a music teacher or the First Sword of Bravos? He never sits down and has a talk with her the way he does Arya. I don't care why Ned is neglecting Sansa, only that he does. Heck Joff tells the Hound to escort Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tourney. Freaking Joff shows more concern for Sansa's well being than her own father. Why does Ned never have any guards for his daughter(s)?

Ned is the monarch of the family, if he doesn't want Sansa betrothed to Joff then she won't be no matter what Cat says. And Ned is the one who, once he decided to stick with Robert and investigate Jon Arryn's death, to keep the betrothal up. He already knew by that point how vile Cersei and Joff were and he didn't care. The betrothal was advantageous for his own ends so he put his daughter in a precarious situation. He chose Robert and Jon over his own daughter and that is actually worse than simple neglect.

4 hours ago, teej6 said:

And besides Sansa was only too happy to marry Joffrey, even after the incident at the Trident.

Of course she was. She was GROOMED to do so. Good grief, do people really not understand the world this takes place in?

Edited by Mystical

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4 hours ago, Mystical said:

ALL of them have used the word bastard in regards to Jon. And they have certainly no issues with him being treated as such on certain occasions. Most of the time she calls him half-brother (you even put the quote up where Jon says so and he says ALWAYS lmao), which I don't know what to tell you but HE IS. And Sansa might have been the most distant but Jon never thought about murdering her the way he did Robb after Robb called him bastard. Besides Sansa didn't raise herself, if you want to blame anyone for the distance, blame the freaking parents.

I don't care if it's the dragon or whatnot. It doesn't matter. Fact is Jon has a giant reaction to being called bastard by Robb to the point where he imagines murdering him. That's all that matters to me. He never has such thoughts about Sansa (her being distant is the worst memory he has of her) and Jon is damn good at remembering slights made against him. Jon in Book 1 was offended by everything, so if Sansa's treatment of him had been THAT bad, we would have known.

Heck you can even do a search on 'bastard brother' and find a lot of that is BRAN.

So why do you excuse it for every Stark child except Sansa? You say none of them did it out of malice but Sansa did? Talk about whitewashing the other kids. No wait, it's blackwashing Sansa. Do you think Sansa does it out of actual malice? Or because she was groomed in the social ways better than her other siblings (who still were groomed hence them thinking him a bastard too) and she is closest to her mother? That's not malice. And why would I be joking about Arya? The girl has zero decorum and no shits to give about what's appropriate. She was rude to the royal family when she felt like it yet she didn't make a peep about Jon being exiled from the family table during dinner. She doesn't even think about it from what I remember.

How can you not think she was neglected and used by her father? The most Ned thinks of Sansa is that 'she always does as she is told', like a good obedient woman in their world. He never takes the time to talk to her like he does Arya. He can't be bothered to find Sansa a music teacher in KL but he finds a trainer for Arya. I wonder what's easier to find in KL, a music teacher or the First Sword of Bravos? He never sits down and has a talk with her the way he does Arya. I don't care why Ned is neglecting Sansa, only that he does. Heck Joff tells the Hound to escort Sansa back to the Red Keep after the tourney. Freaking Joff shows more concern for Sansa's well being than her own father. Why does Ned never have any guards for his daughter(s)?

Ned is the monarch of the family, if he doesn't want Sansa betrothed to Joff then she won't be no matter what Cat says. And Ned is the one who, once he decided to stick with Robert and investigate Jon Arryn's death, to keep the betrothal up. He already knew by that point how vile Cersei and Joff were and he didn't care. The betrothal was advantageous for his own ends so he put his daughter in a precarious situation. He chose Robert and Jon over his own daughter and that is actually worse than simple neglect.

Of course she was. She was GROOMED to do so. Good grief, do people really not understand the world this takes place in?

All I see above is your imagined version of how things transpired. I quoted the text of how Jon thinks of his siblings... he singles out Sansa for the way she treated him and referred to him, which is not positive. So you have Jon’s thoughts as proof for Sansa being the only one of his siblings whose words and thoughts were hurtful to him.  You can twist and imagine the text to fit your fanfic as much as you want but there is no argument here. Read the books, there’s no dispute in the fact that Sansa was the Stark sibling that took after Cat in her treatment of Jon.

As to the other Stark siblings referring to Jon as half-brother or bastard brother, I don’t have to do a search to know it was done matter of factly, and besides none of them apparently did that to Jon’s face with the exception of Sansa or else his thoughts wouldn’t have singled out Sansa.

And I honestly don’t know where the hell you are getting the “Jon wanted to murder Robb” bit. Again, I quoted the text for you above. The only time he remembers Robb implying he’s a bastard is when he is fighting with Iron Emmett. In that moment, Jon is going through a lot of emotions and he loses/forgets himself... this does not naturally translate to he “wanted to murder Robb”. He has a recollection of an unsettling memory and his desire for WF and guilt of wanting it causes him to lose his temper, that’s it. 

As to you interpretation of Ned “neglecting” Sansa, again this is your fanfic or something that you got from the show. In the books, we are not shown any instance of Ned neglecting Sansa. Sansa being escorted back by the Hound?? This is your argument for neglect?? Jeez. Firstly, there wasn’t much of “escorting back” and secondly Septa Mordane was with Sansa and her chaperone. She was the one to escort Sansa back, which she didn’t because she got drunk and passed out. But go ahead blame Ned for it. 

If we have more chapters with Ned and Arya that’s because Martin wrote it that way. Arya had the heroic arc in AGOT. You really have to do better than the awful examples you have if you are going to prove neglect on Ned’s part. Newsflash! you can’t coz there isn’t any.

And read the text I quoted, Ned was overruled by Cat and Maester Luwin regarding going to KL and giving Sansa’s hand in marriage to Joff. Did he give in to Cat’s demands easily? Perhaps. I don’t even know what “Ned is the monarch of the family” means. We are shown Ned’s dynamics with Cat, they are more like equals even though they are a medieval couple. In the very same text I quoted, you see Ned acceding to Cat’s demands in some instances (go to KL, be the Hand, betroth Sansa to Joff, send Jon to the Wall) and Cat acceding to some of Ned’s demands (stay in WF with Robb and Rickon). Cat is not a pushover and Ned respects her and in the case of Sansa, Ned agrees to his wife’s request/demand despite his reservations. Couples do that you know, especially modern-day couples (and Ned and Cat’s relationship is more like modern-day couples than medieval ones). This does not mean Ned “neglected” Sansa. And FYI, Ned does finally decide to break the engagement between Sansa and Joff, it’s your precious Sansa who runs to Cersei for help when she hears her father’s intent. 

Please read the books and provide better arguments than Jon wanting to murder Robb, or Ned neglecting Sansa. Anyway, this thread is not about this subject and the only reason I digressed is to respond to your factually wrong comments about the books.  So ending this discussion as I do hate debating someone who provides nonsensical arguments with no textual evidence. 

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On 8/30/2019 at 7:12 AM, teej6 said:

All I see above is your imagined version of how things transpired. I quoted the text of how Jon thinks of his siblings... he singles out Sansa for the way she treated him and referred to him, which is not positive. So you have Jon’s thoughts as proof for Sansa being the only one of his siblings whose words and thoughts were hurtful to him.

He has a particularly painful memory of Robb pulling rank on him. So you're wrong. 

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The two greatest wars in the history of Westeros started off mainly because the North wasn't independent from the South management.

1- When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. If the North was independent, Rhaegar probably wouldn't even know about Lyanna, or they wouldn't even arrange that marriage between Lyanna and Robert. And even if someone kidnaps their daughter, they wouldn't go there unarmed and ask for justice from a mad king, they would go there with their army, and they wouldn't executed easily and in that way.

2- When Robert and his family came to the North. When they see the incest between the Queen and her brother. If the North was independent, they would never come to the North, and they wouldn't care about the incest in the South, so there wouldn't be any execution again.

So, yes independence of the North is kind of important when you think all of these.

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On ‎8‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 2:12 PM, teej6 said:

All I see above is your imagined version of how things transpired. I quoted the text of how Jon thinks of his siblings... he singles out Sansa for the way she treated him and referred to him, which is not positive. So you have Jon’s thoughts as proof for Sansa being the only one of his siblings whose words and thoughts were hurtful to him.  You can twist and imagine the text to fit your fanfic as much as you want but there is no argument here. Read the books, there’s no dispute in the fact that Sansa was the Stark sibling that took after Cat in her treatment of Jon.

As to the other Stark siblings referring to Jon as half-brother or bastard brother, I don’t have to do a search to know it was done matter of factly, and besides none of them apparently did that to Jon’s face with the exception of Sansa or else his thoughts wouldn’t have singled out Sansa.

And I honestly don’t know where the hell you are getting the “Jon wanted to murder Robb” bit. Again, I quoted the text for you above. The only time he remembers Robb implying he’s a bastard is when he is fighting with Iron Emmett. In that moment, Jon is going through a lot of emotions and he loses/forgets himself... this does not naturally translate to he “wanted to murder Robb”. He has a recollection of an unsettling memory and his desire for WF and guilt of wanting it causes him to lose his temper, that’s it. 

As to you interpretation of Ned “neglecting” Sansa, again this is your fanfic or something that you got from the show. In the books, we are not shown any instance of Ned neglecting Sansa. Sansa being escorted back by the Hound?? This is your argument for neglect?? Jeez. Firstly, there wasn’t much of “escorting back” and secondly Septa Mordane was with Sansa and her chaperone. She was the one to escort Sansa back, which she didn’t because she got drunk and passed out. But go ahead blame Ned for it. 

If we have more chapters with Ned and Arya that’s because Martin wrote it that way. Arya had the heroic arc in AGOT. You really have to do better than the awful examples you have if you are going to prove neglect on Ned’s part. Newsflash! you can’t coz there isn’t any.

And read the text I quoted, Ned was overruled by Cat and Maester Luwin regarding going to KL and giving Sansa’s hand in marriage to Joff. Did he give in to Cat’s demands easily? Perhaps. I don’t even know what “Ned is the monarch of the family” means. We are shown Ned’s dynamics with Cat, they are more like equals even though they are a medieval couple. In the very same text I quoted, you see Ned acceding to Cat’s demands in some instances (go to KL, be the Hand, betroth Sansa to Joff, send Jon to the Wall) and Cat acceding to some of Ned’s demands (stay in WF with Robb and Rickon). Cat is not a pushover and Ned respects her and in the case of Sansa, Ned agrees to his wife’s request/demand despite his reservations. Couples do that you know, especially modern-day couples (and Ned and Cat’s relationship is more like modern-day couples than medieval ones). This does not mean Ned “neglected” Sansa. And FYI, Ned does finally decide to break the engagement between Sansa and Joff, it’s your precious Sansa who runs to Cersei for help when she hears her father’s intent. 

Please read the books and provide better arguments than Jon wanting to murder Robb, or Ned neglecting Sansa. Anyway, this thread is not about this subject and the only reason I digressed is to respond to your factually wrong comments about the books.  So ending this discussion as I do hate debating someone who provides nonsensical arguments with no textual evidence. 

You guys discussing a lot about Ned having a choice over Sansa......

IT WAS THE F**** KING!!!!!!! LOOOOL

Good luck saying no to the king!

Yes, they could. But Cat pressed Ned for many reasons but maybe also because Cat was the more dinastic and more used to court intrigue compared to Ned. Cat had an understanding that it was dangerous but it would be even more dangerous to not do it.

If the Lannisters were getting ready to start killing great houses, someone needed to get close to the king and try to start undermining them. The way to get close to Robert was not to say NO to his son. Besides....Joffrey was still seen as legitimate and Sansa had a proposal to be THE QUEEN!!!! Come on....what parents would not enjoy that? See if Olenna was not ready to try it also.

Being THE QUEEN is the one top thing that any girl could achieve in the known world.

How could a father possibly say no to that??? And how could a mother not want that??? And how could a young noble girl not be absolutely amazed by the prospect of becoming THE QUEEN??? Watch what Maergery was willing to do in order to get there and you get a very good and plausible exemple. Most of those girls would KILL to get there.

Even that the Starks are already lords of Winterfell.....there is a BIG DIFFERENCE from that to the whole 7 Kingdoms. And who is to say they will be unable to reason with Joffrey? They still do not know the extent of Joffrey´s character. They also do not expect Joffrey to be king in the next couple years, so there is time to educate him. They absolutely did not plan for Sansa to be left alone in KL.

Yes, they did lots of mistakes and wrong judgements. But supporting Sansa for Queen was something that made perfect sense for all of them.

One can always ask why did Cat take Tyrion and if she did not think about her daughters. But remember Cat did not expect them to kill Robert so fast. We did see Roberts reaction to Cat´s actions and he did not cal for Cat to be put in jail. Therefore Cat was perfectly safe to do as she did if Robert did not die. And in the end, their greatest mistake was not understanding how far and how fast Cersei was ready to go. Ned should have been able to get some allies between Renly and LF. We now know how everything went wrong but it was not a sure thing. Ned came in perfect range of securing power and getting things under his control. It was possible. The Lannisters did not have everyone ready to blindly follow them.

Edited by RSasoiaf

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I kind of get the impression that because of the season five Ramsay/Sansa story arc, David and Dan feel that Sansa becoming Queen would have redeemed the past three seasons revolving Sansa story arc. Ultimately it did not, given how bad the finale was, Sansa becoming the queen of the North and not have other kingdoms go independent seems like a cop-out. You at least think that the Ironborne would object to Sansa declaration of northern independence and follow through with their own claim of independence, given that they had rebelled against the Iron throne twice.  

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On 8/28/2019 at 5:02 PM, King Wyman said:

They kinda ignored the Stark children’s dynamics in the show and season 1 Sansa was toned down a lot, but in the books Sansa ALWAYS corrects her siblings whenever they call Jon their brother, and usually references him being a bastard like it’s a bad thing whenever he’s brought up. She’s not as bad as Cat, but she def treats him/thinks of him like he’s less than (until she gains perspective in book 4).

She also calls Arya “Arya Horseface”, and her and Jeyne Poole make fun of/bully Arya constantly. 

It’s why so many people hate Sansa, she makes a horrible first impression and she’s not even remotely sympathetic until book 2, and by then it’s too late for a lot of people.

Doesn’t help D&D botched her character down the stretch (like they did everyone else’s), and made her revert back to being unlikeable (but without any consequences this time) to subvert expectations.

It really is crazy how many major characters they ruined in the final few seasons.

In the books, Jon doesn't seem to have any bad memories of Sansa.  He does remember her giving him some tips on how to romance a girl he was interested in - that's not the act of a girl who hates her half-brother.  And Jon was probably "half-brother" and "a bastard" to Sansa because she felt caught between her mother's hatred of the boy and her parents and father's embrace of Jon; and Sansa was very close to her mother.  

I didn't hate Sansa; I felt she was immature and needed to grow up.  I don't think that Sansa's mocking/bullying of Arya was unusual; though it should have been stopped long ago by her parents.  Sansa identified with her mother and felt she was a delicate Southern maiden stuck in the cold, unrefined North.  Her brothers and sisters embrace their father's Northern values; Sansa probably felt left out.  Arya is adored by their father; she's the perfect daughter for him; Sansa may resent that as Arya resents Sansa's being perfect at embroidery and manners.  Septa Mordane, who should have seen that this was happening and tried to defuse the tension between the sisters, just intensified it by constantly favoring Sansa and emphasizing Arya's faults.  Ned should have stepped in and insisted that the girls' talents and preferences should be taken into account; since Sansa was being reared as a Southern maiden, Arya could be reared as a Northern maiden - i.e. she should learn basic sewing so she could patch up a sock or sew on a button, but she didn't have to master embroidery.   In any case, Sansa was still a child, 11 years old, in the books and 13 in the TV series, on the journey to King's Landing.  She wasn't an irredeemable Mean Girl (and in the books she never was rude and mean to her Septa as she was in the TV show).

 

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On 9/13/2019 at 12:16 PM, RYShh said:

The two greatest wars in the history of Westeros started off mainly because the North wasn't independent from the South management.

1- When Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. If the North was independent, Rhaegar probably wouldn't even know about Lyanna, or they wouldn't even arrange that marriage between Lyanna and Robert. And even if someone kidnaps their daughter, they wouldn't go there unarmed and ask for justice from a mad king, they would go there with their army, and they wouldn't executed easily and in that way.

2- When Robert and his family came to the North. When they see the incest between the Queen and her brother. If the North was independent, they would never come to the North, and they wouldn't care about the incest in the South, so there wouldn't be any execution again.

So, yes independence of the North is kind of important when you think all of these.

That's absolutely incorrect.

The unrest and chaos of Maegor's rule, the Dance of the Dragons and the five different Blackfyre Wars had nothing to do with the North being ruled by southerners. And those were easily much worse than Robert's Rebellion.

The War of the Five Kings? Hmmm...well, the War of the Five Kings is a completely different beast. For one, it has less to do with the mismanagement of the North by southerners and it never has really ended.

  • Stannis Baratheon is still in rebellion
  • The Ironbron are still in rebellion, but unlike Stannis, they have not sustained serious losses. In fact, in a grand scheme of things, they've done nothing but win.
  • There are a group of wildlings still threatening the Wall
  • The Riverlands are a nightmare that keeps getting worse
  • The Lannisters, the supposed victors of the War of the Five Kings, are still fighting enemies - real or imagined - in the Riverlands and in King's Landing
  • There is no peace in Dorne and Dorne is full of fresh, angry people who want to fight

Contrary to what you may believe, the War of the Five Kings situation does not revolve around the North. While the North's situation is unique and sad, it won't be unique for much longer (winter is coming for all of Westeros). The war that is the War of the Five Kings was always going to happen even if no one touched a single hair on Ned or Sansa's head.

It was inevitable.

  • Balon Greyjoy had been plotting another better rebellion for years
  • Mance Rayder was always planning to march on the Wall and invade the Seven Kingdoms
  • The Targaryens and their benefactors across the Narrow Sea had been plotting their invasion for a long time
  • Melisandre had been on Dragonstone for awhile and the other red priests weren't just twiddling their thumbs this whole time
  • Drogo clearly had ambitions of his own (I'm sure they will be revealed in this next book) and the Dothraki prophecy of the Stallion has always been a thing
  • Renly Baratheon never had much sense and was always going to fall prey to Tyrell intrigue
  • Robert Baratheon was seriously thinking about ditching the Seven Kingdoms so he could travel the world and have adventures
  • Littlefinger is...well, Littlefinger
  • The Others were still coming

I mean, let's keep it real. All of these were going to happen. It had nothing to do with the North's independence.

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Posted (edited)

It's fascinating how every topic devolves into a Sansa hate/ love debate.

Back to topic, as a "show-only," Sansa's claim for Northern independence came out of nowhere for me. If they wanted it to feel orgnic, they should have properly built it up. And yes, the fact that the Ironborn (and probably Porne) did not demand their own independence seemed weird, but then the whole ending was ridiculous, so if Bronn can become  Lord of Highgarden (by threatening other lords, no less) then why not?

 

Edited by Mindwalker

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1 hour ago, Mindwalker said:

It's fascinating how every topic devolves into a Sansa hate/ love debate.

Back to topic, as a "show-only," Sansa's claim for Northern independence came out of nowhere for me. If they wanted it to feel orgnic, they should have properly built it up. And yes, the fact that the Ironborn (and probably Porne) did not demand their own independence seemed weird, but then the whole ending was ridiculous, so if Bronn can become  Lord of Highgarden (by threatening other lords, no less) then why not?

 

It's hard to imagine that the Iron Islands or Dorne would not make bids for independence bscore long.

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11 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

It's fascinating how every topic devolves into a Sansa hate/ love debate.

Back to topic, as a "show-only," Sansa's claim for Northern independence came out of nowhere for me. If they wanted it to feel orgnic, they should have properly built it up. And yes, the fact that the Ironborn (and probably Porne) did not demand their own independence seemed weird, but then the whole ending was ridiculous, so if Bronn can become  Lord of Highgarden (by threatening other lords, no less) then why not?

 

I don’t hate Sansa, I hate how the writers handled her in the last two seasons. I mean, she:

  • Wanted the North to be independent in the face of the Army of the Dead, despite the fact that
    • the North barely had anything to fight the undead with;
    • The Army of the Dead don’t care if someone’s independent
  • Had to rely on Bran to keep from having Arya killed;
  • Took no opportunity to train to fight, which made her useless when the Army of the Dead came to call. If Arya had been a little slow in killing the Night King Sansa would have been wight chow.

Talk about skewed priorities. Sansa’s supposed to be courteous and pragmatic, not so concerned with who rules over her dying

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So this can happen

 

She sat upon her throne, and as she did so her lords followed suit. There were a great many still here for a great many reasons. No doubt, the appearance of so many of their suitably aged sons was no coincidence. And of course, beyond even just her, there was the important matter.

But first things first.

“Lord Glover sits behinds the Walls of Deepwood Motte once more,” Sansa began. Her lords laughed. They might have wished not to. “For his gross dereliction of duty, I hereby demand his presence at Winterfell, to answer for his crimes.”

Their pitiful laughter stopped. Her brother accepted that laughter and mockery with ease. Because he was an idiot. She would teach them that she was in control. Not a single one of them would ever abandon her if she called her banners. Not if they values their lives. She was their queen.

“I require a hundred men to make all haste to bring him here.” She asked. She could've just sent her own, but she knew of her father. When he had sent his men away time after time at King's Landing, he hadn't enough to stop Joffrey and Littlefinger. And she would let them think that sending their men was enough to be given the empty castles that scattered her lands.

As a few of her lords and Ladies made their promises to bring Glover here, she thought on just how many castles were abandoned.

Bear Island. With the Mormonts gone, someone must claim it.
Last Hearth. She had told Jon to install loyal lords there, but he had just given it to another Umber. Maybe that had been smart. The Umbers were gone now.
Karhold. Seal's watch. The Lonely hills. Castles on the Long Lake. Highpoint.

Even the Dreadfort. The ancient seat of the Red Kings. Her... Last husband's castle. Part of her wanted to tear it down stone by stone. Burn it. Raze it even to its foundation.
And she knew that was stupid. It was one of the best fortifications in the North. A grand castle with good lands attached. A fine carrot to hold above her remaining lords, those that hadn't died in the Red Wedding, the Battle of the Bastards and against the White Walkers. The finest, short of her hand.

“My Queen,” Lord Manderly rose to stand. He had somehow gotten fatter then she had last seen him. That was a surprise. Food was getting scarcer, even as Winter abated. Yet here he stood, wobbling. “When we bring Lord Glover to you, to justice, what is it you intend? His treason is undoubted, his cowardice unquestionable.”

Father had once told her that nothing anyone ever said before the word 'but' meant anything. But he had been an idiot. What did he know?

“But what is it you intend? Should I no longer have my grandchildren learn of the heraldry of House Glover?” He asked.

He of course, meant if she intended to revoke their lands and Lordship. To throw them out of her Kingdom. Or maybe to kill them all. One was more akin to Cersei and Daenerys. It had its temptations, but she was not like them.

“All men and Women of my Kingdom may defend themselves in my court,” Sansa replied. There were cautious and fearful looks amongst her vassals. They remembered Littlefinger. If they had cared about rights and justice, why not bring it up then? Not a single one had spoken up to defend him. Not even his fellow Vale Lords. Still... “I cannot judge before all arguments have been made.”

Lord Manderly nodded, and the Lords and Ladies seemed to calm down a little.

“Before we continue, there is the matter of the Northern most castles and Lands of my realm,” Sansa said. She could see the hunger in her vassals' eyes. The greed. She smiled. This was how you ruled. Not by sword or fire. Not by cruelty. Give with one hand, and take with another. Littlefinger had once been good at that. He had supplied Robert and Joffrey and Tommen with all the Gold they wanted, and took Harrenhal from them. Taken their lives too, in his own way. It amused her sometimes, to think she had avenged Joffrey.

“There are many...” She began, before someone stood up from the benches.

He was dressed in furs. Akin to the Wildlings. He tore off his hood to reveal short red hair and a scarred face. His smile was yellow, his teeth sharp. At his breast, her wore a pendant of Dragonglass.

“Queen Sansa,” He said, interrupting her. He moved to the centre of the hall, then in front of the dais, and knelt before her. Her guards and everyone else was quite confused and insulted by his interruption. None more than her, but she was better at hiding it.

“You ought to wait till I have finished before speaking. Maybe some time in...”

“I'm afraid I spoke up because I have something to explain of those Northern Castles of yours,” He said, interrupting her yet again. His voice was strange, as if he was not accustomed to speaking like this. Politely. It was mocking, but perhaps not on purpose.

“Who are you?” Sansa asked, glancing briefly to one of her guards before returning to the kneeling man.

“Syggerik Stane your grace. Third Son of Lord Stane of Driftwood hall, and the brother of Lord Stane of Seal's Watch and Lord Stane of Karhide,” He introduced himself as.

No. No no no no.

Sansa's eyes widened as she immediately gathered what exactly this meant. Her lords were slightly slower, so the man kept talking.

“In your name, the Skagosi and the Mountain Clans have occupied the castles left abandoned by the march of the White Walkers. Lord Magnar and his sons rule Karhold and Highpoint. Lord Driftwood rules the Lonely Hills. And the Mountain clans have somehow split the Umber Lands and keeps amongst themselves,” The Skagosi explained. “All of them bar The Dreadfort. We knew that Queen Sansa might wish to take it for herself, as justice for the Bolton's crimes.”

She clenched her fists above the table as her lords shouted and ranted. Some drew swords, but her guards stepped forwards. There would be no immediate violence in her halls.

The Skagosi and Mountain Clans were both few. Both uncivilised. The Mountain Clans were rumoured to still keep to the First Night, and the Skagosi rumoured to do far, far worse.

And both were out of the way of the March of the White Walkers. Both waited, forgotten. And both had sprung.

“Have you the men to hold these lands?” Asked Sansa pointedly.

“To farm and fill the abandoned Villages? No. But to hold the castles against... Enemies of her grace? Yes.” The Skagosi replied as slowly, infuriatingly, he began to stand up.

The threat was obvious. The insult, clear.

“Why are you here?” Asked Sansa. Her guard stepped forwards again. As her vassals, those that hadn't just stolen several castles from her, sat down, the Skagosi who had simply stood there, undaunted.

“To ask you to confirm our right to them.”

He was a bold one.

“Why might I do that?” Asked Sansa.

“Because if not, should I return to my Lord Father without such guarantees, or should I not return at all in a reasonable time, my overlord would have no choice but to name himself King Cargyrik Magnar, King of the Grey Cliffs and Skagos. Protector of the Shivering Sea. And my fellow Mountain Clans the Kings of Last Hearth and the Mountains,” Syggerik explained bluntly, with a wicked smile.

Her lords exploded once more, and her guards looked to her. They silently pleaded with her to take this snake into custody. To kill him.

But instead, Sansa thought.

Military, she had maybe 9,000 soldiers left in the North. Monetarily, she could hardly afford to keep them at arms for very long. Politically, she needed those castles, but she could not also go to war.

These men of the Mountains and Cannibals of the isles had no doubt the food they could steal from abandoned larders from the lands. Could wait behind castles for years. Sansa could not storm dozens of castles to take them back. And she could not afford to besiege them all.

But she could not hope to have her vassals respect her if she rolled over and allowed thieves, worst, cannibals and savages, to simply take castles that were not theirs to take. She couldn't allow it.

She would not allow it.

“The way my Lord father saw it, your Grace, there are two options. Peace, and a new loyal nobility grateful that their queen has gifted them these castles,” Syggerik explained, holding out his left hand. He then clenched that fist and put it down, lifting his right. “Or, my King shall outlast your armies, and break free from the chains of Winterfell. As you had done against the Dragon and Lion.”

His eyes narrowed. Her Lords, Ladies, guards and the envoy all waited for her response. Her maester waited. The useless bastard hadn't even offered any advice. She only remembered who the Stanes were from lessons her father had given Robb.

They all waited. Waited for her to choose. Peace, and meekness. Peace, and mockery. Peace, and failure. Peace, and...

She remembered the last time she had simply given in. Littlefinger. A Candle that had been ignored. A torn dress.

She clenched her fist, slamming it into the table.

“I choose violence, ” She growled.

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Back on topic, 

The whole North Independency would only make sense if it was not Bran STARK on the throne LOL 

Its like….by all inheritance laws, Bran should have been the rightful Lord of Winterfell and warden of the North. Even more so, Bran should be next in line for King in the North too LOL If by any means Jon was disqualified, then Bran would be the obvious choice because he should be next in line after his older brothers. I get the feeling it was also clearly stated on the show that Jon was chosen as King in the North as Ned Stark´s bastard. So they were considering him eligible for being Rob´s half brother. If they keep following logic, Bran is the next in line. 

Now, we all know that Bran seems to have abdicated the North in favour of Jon during the War with the Dead. But he abdicated to Jon. And this would still be more easy to do because, again, Jon being seen as Stark, northern lords could follow him if they now consider him "legit". 

It is highly debatable that any Northern Lord would want to follow Sansa with both Bran and Jon alive. 

The whole politics would not make sense in a medieval society that follows male line first. If the North had Dornish laws, then ok! But only Dorne considers both males and females equal in inheritance laws. 

So, the only way Sansa could be Queen in the North is if Bran gave her consent to do so. Which…..quiet likely Bran could revoke at any moment should he say so. Sansa would technically be ruling the North for Bran. 

Now….if Bran does give special treatment to "his own" kingdom within the whole 7, by giving the North special powers and status, I cant see how that is not going to turn into a big mess very fast. Imagine how someone like Bronn will be like discussing why does he have to pay taxes or contribute in ways which Sansa does not. That´s going to be EXTRA FUN!!!! And one can very easily add the Iron Islands and Dorne to that mix. Hell….even the Vale and the Riverlands may well be more inclined to be loyal to Sansa then Bran. Tyrion had a former marriage with Sansa and who knows if he may be willing to try and get close again. He is no doubt closer to Sansa then he ever was to Bran. Gendry will be a wildcard with Arya gone but he too will be looking for a wife and Sansa will be a very top option.

This whole thing will not last long!!!! 

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1 hour ago, RSasoiaf said:

Now, we all know that Bran seems to have abdicated the North in favour of Jon during the War with the Dead. But he abdicated to Jon. And this would still be more easy to do because, again, Jon being seen as Stark, northern lords could follow him if they now consider him "legit".

As KitN or KoW hasn't been a thing for 300 years, when the North did break away during the show they voted for their ruler. It was no longer a title inherited. Robb being made king seemed more to be in line with the old tradition than the Northern Lords choosing a more experienced person as their king. And also they were going to war to save Ned STARK, who was WotN, so that's probably also a reason to chose his son.

There is nothing for Bran (read: 3ER) to abdicate as he had no right to the title. Robb's kingdom died with him since he named no heirs. Jon is also not a Stark, so now the KitN title is in the hands of a Snow and the Starks have no right to it. The only title 'Bran' had a right to was Lord of Winterfell and he abdicated that one to Sansa (mainly because he knew there was a much better title in his future).

It made absolutely no sense that Jon became KitN in the first place, not the way it was done on the show. It completely ignored the feudal system and traditions of the world the characters live in. These Lords who came to their position by being legitimate trueborn heirs would never choose a bastard. This is basically giving a signal to all male northern bastards to claim a ruling seat in a northern house (if they are older than the current Lord). At the very least they would have insisted that Jon legitimize himself as his first act as King to avoid exactly that. Nvm that people know their history and screwing legitimate children out of their rightful inheritance (assuming that King/Queen=always a Stark) can lead to civil war down the line. Even if the current Stark children are all fine with this arrangement, there is no guarantee their future generations will be fine with that.

Your entire post is predicated on the assumption that Bran is King in the North because he is the legitimate Stark heir. But the title was lost to House Stark when Robb died and the next King wasn't a Stark but a Snow. So no, it was never Bran's. Your entire post falls apart right from the very start because of this false assumption.

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On 8/30/2019 at 12:37 AM, teej6 said:

And in the books, none of Jon’s other siblings make him feel less of a brother as much as Sansa does. In fact, none (apart from Sansa) make him feel anything but a brother. Jon’s recollection of his siblings indicate that Sansa was the most distant to him and the one that reminded him of his outsider status among his siblings.

This is part of why I subscribe to the theory will gradually fall in love when they reunite. They clearly don't have that familial bond and the fact they find out they're actually cousins (well, I'm assuming they find out) will go a long way to cementing that love as not unnatural.

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Another question I've thought of: how can Sansa hope for her kingdom to survive? The Northern lords were dismissive of her in Season 6 when they declared Jon king, why should they act any differently now? She has no army after it's gotten divided and trashed multiple times, she has no qualities that they'd respect, what's stopping them from swamping her "like a bunch of crazed dogs!" (to quote Lawrence Taylor)?

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19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Another question I've thought of: how can Sansa hope for her kingdom to survive? The Northern lords were dismissive of her in Season 6 when they declared Jon king, why should they act any differently now? She has no army after it's gotten divided and trashed multiple times, she has no qualities that they'd respect, what's stopping them from swamping her "like a bunch of crazed dogs!" (to quote Lawrence Taylor)?

First of all, they changed their tune as early as S7, regretting having crowned Jon. Because an absent King is no king at all. But that aside, why do you assume the rest? Did you not pay attention to any dialogue? Sansa did not make herself Queen. She went to KL to free Jon and for him to come back north and be king (this is stated on the screen). Did you not watch her coronation either? Sansa is there, no weapons or guards on her, in a room full of people raising theirs to declare her queen. So they made Sansa their Queen, why would they kill her or not respect her? She didn't make herself queen, THEY DID. Seriously, S8 isn't rocket science.

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