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NBA Off-Season 2019 - Bridge Over the River Kawhi


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29 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I know the USA Basketball team is kinda hard up for players, but apparently not so hard up that they need Carmelo Anthony.

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/08/08/usa-basketball-carmelo-anthony-decline-request-fiba-world-cup-Jerry-colangelo

Assuming Carmelo doesn't do much more in the NBA from here, is he a Hall of Famer?

There are some terrible players in the basketball HoF. Despite all the hate he gets, Carmelo is at the very least a top 100 player all time, and for what it’s worth, he’s the greatest American international player ever. He gets in on the second or third ballot.   

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Look at the list of guys that got in in the past ten years for their recent NBA accomplishments (IE, not players primarily known for playing in the WNBA, playing internationally or playing before then 90s).

Definitely better than Carmelo:  Jordan, Robinson, Stockton, Malone, Pippen, Miller, Payton, Mutumbo, Shaq, Iverson, Allen, Kidd, Nash,

Probably better than Carmelo: Rodman, Mullin, Hill, McGrady

Probably not better than Carmelo:  Mourning

But given how biased I am against Carmelo's game, it's quite possible some people would take issue with some of the probably better list.  Melo probably gets in, even though IMO he doesn't deserve it. 

 

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2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Look at the list of guys that got in in the past ten years for their recent NBA accomplishments (IE, not players primarily known for playing in the WNBA, playing internationally or playing before then 90s).

Definitely better than Carmelo:  Jordan, Robinson, Stockton, Malone, Pippen, Miller, Payton, Mutumbo, Shaq, Iverson, Allen, Kidd, Nash,

Probably better than Carmelo: Rodman, Mullin, Hill, McGrady

Probably not better than Carmelo:  Mourning

But given how biased I am against Carmelo's game, it's quite possible some people would take issue with some of the probably better list.  Melo probably gets in, even though IMO he doesn't deserve it. 

 

Isn't Carmelo basically Iverson? Pure scorers, not terribly efficient, who didn't do much to impact the game outside of their scoring. Iverson carrying a 76ers team to the Finals when the East was beyond terrible is about equivalent to Carmelo carrying the Nuggets to the WCF in '09.

The main difference is perception. Iverson has this rep as this tough-as-nails little guy who played with a ton of heart. Whereas Carmelo is seen as a guy who prioritized financial security and living in NY over winning virtually every chance he got. But in terms of how their on court impact, they feel similar to me. I'm genuinely not sure which guy I'd prefer to build around at their respective peaks. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Isn't Carmelo basically Iverson? Pure scorers, not terribly efficient, who didn't do much to impact the game outside of their scoring. Iverson carrying a 76ers team to the Finals when the East was beyond terrible is about equivalent to Carmelo carrying the Nuggets to the WCF in '09.

The main difference is perception. Iverson has this rep as this tough-as-nails little guy who played with a ton of heart. Whereas Carmelo is seen as a guy who prioritized financial security and living in NY over winning virtually every chance he got. But in terms of how their on court impact, they feel similar to me. I'm genuinely not sure which guy I'd prefer to build around at their respective peaks.

I think of Carmelo as an inferior version of Iverson.  Iverson won a League MVP, and was an All-NBA first and second teamer six times.  Carmelo managed only two second team spots.  Iverson was a better passer (although neither was great), and a better defender - at least Iverson got steals, Anthony doesn't bring anything to the table defensively. 

I'm not even totally sure that Carmelo was the best player on that Nuggets team.  It looked to me like it was 34 year old Billups that was really leading that squad to victory.  Hell, I'd gladly put Chauncey Billups in the HoF before Anthony, he has a Finals MVP, played great defense and was the best or second best player on teams that made 7 straight conference Finals. 

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Melo just had the misfortune of playing in the wrong era. His greatest strength is his midrange shot, and these days teams don’t want players taking them anymore. I think the real frustration with him is what Jaime pointed out, that he never made the players around him better in the NBA, which is so odd because he did the exact opposite of that on the National team.

And on that note, the basketball HoF takes everything into account, including gold medals and college championships. Melo is both a HoFer and a disappointment, and really, that’s not all that uncommon in the NBA.

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25 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I think of Carmelo as an inferior version of Iverson.  Iverson won a League MVP, and was an All-NBA first and second teamer six times.  Carmelo managed only two second team spots.  Iverson was a better passer (although neither was great), and a better defender - at least Iverson got steals, Anthony doesn't bring anything to the table defensively. 

I'm not even totally sure that Carmelo was the best player on that Nuggets team.  It looked to me like it was 34 year old Billups that was really leading that squad to victory.  Hell, I'd gladly put Chauncey Billups in the HoF before Anthony, he has a Finals MVP, played great defense and was the best or second best player on teams that made 7 straight conference Finals. 

Fair, although two things: 1) That MVP was a joke. There's no universe he's a more valuable player than Shaq or Duncan or probably 3-4 other guys. Voters were way less sophisticated back then in quantifying a player's total value. 2) He peaked during a much less talented era of the NBA. It took the '03 and subsequent drafts to restock the league with elite players after the post-Jordan nadir from like '99-'03. I mean Stephon Marbury, Jamal Mashburn made all NBA teams. Shit got pretty dark there for awhile. 

24 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Melo just had the misfortune of playing in the wrong era. His greatest strength is his midrange shot, and these days teams don’t want players taking them anymore. I think the real frustration with him is what Jaime pointed out, that he never made the players around him better in the NBA, which is so odd because he did the exact opposite of that on the National team.

And on that note, the basketball HoF takes everything into account, including gold medals and college championships. Melo is both a HoFer and a disappointment, and really, that’s not all that uncommon in the NBA.

Yeah, I would say his performance on that Olympic team is among the best cases for Melo in that he showed how well he could compliment elite players at least once in his life. And it makes it all the more maddening he chose time and time again the option that would ensure he never played with another great player (at least while he was still good). 

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4 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Yeah, I would say his performance on that Olympic team is among the best cases for Melo in that he showed how well he could compliment elite players at least once in his life. And it makes it all the more maddening he chose time and time again the option that would ensure he never played with another great player. 

Not counting Chauncey Billups that is :D

And yes, the early 2000s were a dark time for the NBA, although I think that this impression is (slightly) enhanced by the fact that several of the best players in the era (Iverson, McGrady, Webber) fell off a cliff in terms of ability due to injuries or whatever.  Webber is probably the best example because he stuck around as a decent but thoroughly unexceptional player, and it's easy to forget what a monster he was for a few years there.   

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38 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Yeah, I would say his performance on that Olympic team is among the best cases for Melo in that he showed how well he could compliment elite players at least once in his life. And it makes it all the more maddening he chose time and time again the option that would ensure he never played with another great player (at least while he was still good). 

Imagine a world in which Melo doesn’t request a trade, doesn’t sign a contract that doesn’t align with Wade and Lebron’s and joins the Miami Heat in 2010.  

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12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Imagine a world in which Melo doesn’t request a trade, doesn’t sign a contract that doesn’t align with Wade and Lebron’s and joins the Miami Heat in 2010.  

Instead of Bosh?  I'm not sure that team wins any titles.  The Big Three needed someone willing to be third banana and do the thankless work of defending other bigs, grinding under the basket, spacing the floor, and providing instant offense only when called upon.  Anthony is a much worse fit for all those things. 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And on that note, the basketball HoF takes everything into account, including gold medals and college championships. Melo is both a HoFer and a disappointment, and really, that’s not all that uncommon in the NBA.

I think this is the key point.  This isn’t like football.  This is all of basketball.  So you factor in his dominance on the world stage with somehow dragging Jim Boeheim to a title as a one and done freshman and I think it gets the job done to get him over the line into the HoF.

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44 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Not counting Chauncey Billups that is :D

And yes, the early 2000s were a dark time for the NBA, although I think that this impression is (slightly) enhanced by the fact that several of the best players in the era (Iverson, McGrady, Webber) fell off a cliff in terms of ability due to injuries or whatever.  Webber is probably the best example because he stuck around as a decent but thoroughly unexceptional player, and it's easy to forget what a monster he was for a few years there.   

Yeah, it's hard to separate the extent a draft is talent poor or guys just not reaching their potential. I tend to agree the issue was largely the latter. 

'96-'98 gave us Iverson, Allen, Nash, Kobe, Duncan, Billups, McGrady, Nowitzki, Pierce, Carter but after that the wheels came off. 

'99 I remember being a good draft but it really wasn't. It went Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Baron Davis 1-2-3 and I remember thinking of all 3 as big time stars at one point when really all were primarily just big stats guys who didn't really impact winning. Marion and Artest were the only guys that actually helped you win. 
'00 is the worst draft of all time. Kenyon Martin was the only guy who even at one time could remotely be considered a star.
'01 was only somewhat salvaged by the international guys - Pau Gasol, Tony Parker. The 18 year olds taken at the top were all massive busts except Tyson Chandler who eventually figured out how to be a useful role guy. 
'02 is really only 7 years of Yao Ming and then three pretty good guys (Tayshaun Prince, Caron Butler, Amare Stoudemire). That's literally it. 

I mean no wonder you had playoff games in the 60s and 70s in this era. The rules sucked but the players did too.

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I think you guys are really forgetting the quality gap between USA and other teams in the Olympics when considering Carmelo's impact on the team.

In the upcoming World Championship team USA is far from the best team USA could have. Was it 15 players that cancelled or bowed out because of injuries? And the first list was missing some of the best USA players already. Even so, USA are still counted as favourites to win the WC, though now other teams are not THAT far behind as they could've been.

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8 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Assuming Carmelo doesn't do much more in the NBA from here, is he a Hall of Famer?

Yes, maybe not first ballot, but he should easily get in.  The man's scored over 25,000 points, is 22nd on the all-time NBA/ABA list, and right ahead of the likes of Miller, Barry, West, Ewing, Iverson, Barkley, Allen, Drexler.

7 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Definitely better than Carmelo:  Jordan, Robinson, Stockton, Malone, Pippen, Miller, Payton, Mutumbo, Shaq, Iverson, Allen, Kidd, Nash,

Probably better than Carmelo: Rodman, Mullin, Hill, McGrady

Probably not better than Carmelo:  Mourning

Yeah, as you suggested, I think you might be showing a little bias here.  Due to longevity, I think Anthony is clearly ahead of Hill and probably McGrady and Mullin as well (albeit Mullin does have efficiency on his side - he was an amazing shooter).  And that's coming from a Magic fan.  I'd put him ahead of Rodman as well, although that's hard to compare as they're like exactly different players, and maybe even Allen and Mutombo - plus I agree with Jamie L that Iverson and Anthony are pretty much on the same level.

4 hours ago, Maithanet said:

although I think that this impression is (slightly) enhanced by the fact that several of the best players in the era (Iverson, McGrady, Webber) fell off a cliff in terms of ability due to injuries or whatever.

How can you not include Grant Hill in this sentence?!?  He was well on his way to becoming the most complete player in the world until he destroyed his ankle(s).

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3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Instead of Bosh?  I'm not sure that team wins any titles.  The Big Three needed someone willing to be third banana and do the thankless work of defending other bigs, grinding under the basket, spacing the floor, and providing instant offense only when called upon.  Anthony is a much worse fit for all those things. 

That's always been the rumor, but once Melo's free agency didn't align with with LeBron's and Wade's, they were forced to look else where. Their plan was always to pair up with each other plus one other star, and everything I've read suggests it would be in either Miami or Chicago. 

As far as how good they'd be, who knows? The only think we have to go one is Team USA, and they worked wonderfully together. 

2 hours ago, Rhom said:

I think this is the key point.  This isn’t like football.  This is all of basketball.  So you factor in his dominance on the world stage with somehow dragging Jim Boeheim to a title as a one and done freshman and I think it gets the job done to get him over the line into the HoF.

Moreover, the football HoF is super picky whereas the basketball HoF lets everyone in. Example:

Quote

Bill Bradley was a key member of the New York Knicks for 10 seasons before retiring to pursue a career in politics.  A Princeton graduate and Rhodes scholar, Bradley represented New Jersey in the senate for 18 years, even running for president in the 2000 election (he lost the Democratic nomination).

While he may have been a Hall of Fame politician to some, Bradley's election to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in 1982 is very puzzling.  He won two championships with the Knicks in 1970 and 1973 and was an All-Star in 1972, but that's about it.  In terms of numbers, Bradley was fairly mediocre.

Over the course of his career, Bradley averaged just 12.4 points and 3.2 rebounds.  His career field-goal percentage is pretty decent at around 45 percent, but that is the only statistic that really jumps out.  Otherwise, he is just an average player who just happens to be in the Hall of Fame.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/815135-dennis-rodman-and-10-undeserving-nba-hall-of-famers#slide10

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13 minutes ago, baxus said:

I think you guys are really forgetting the quality gap between USA and other teams in the Olympics when considering Carmelo's impact on the team.

In the upcoming World Championship team USA is far from the best team USA could have. Was it 15 players that cancelled or bowed out because of injuries? And the first list was missing some of the best USA players already. Even so, USA are still counted as favourites to win the WC, though now other teams are not THAT far behind as they could've been.

14 of the 15 All-NBA players decided not to go, as well as many other All-Stars and former All-Stars. We still have the best team on paper, but we also are fielding a ton of players who have no business being on the team and they only have six weeks to practice. I could see them getting knocked out by one of the better European teams that train together year round. 

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Glad to see some sanity in this discussion, Melo's place in the hall is assured.  At his peak it was said by many of his peers that no one could get their shot as efficiently as Melo.  He has an argument as the best Nugget of all time; better scorer than Kiki, better longevity than Matumbo and Thompson (though ultimately I think I would have him third behind both Lever and English, but the argument is there).

For all his playoff troubles he took a team that had not been to the playoffs for nine years and never missed the playoffs while he was there.  The Karl system ran around a ball stopping small forward wasn't a winning formula in the playoffs, and yes some of that goes on Melo but he was never a dog during the Nugget's playoff runs either; he continued to score and rebound.  The Nuggets also had some flat out weird playoff experiences.  Kenyon getting suspended, Karl getting cancer, they just couldn't get everything together.  But on that run with Chauncey it was Melo who was the best player on the team; Chauncey just brought out his best.

Melo was a score first player who probably came to the league about 8 years too late to showcase his talents.  He also regressed from an aggressive offensive player to a pure shooter. 

But as others have stated, his resume when looked at in the future will speak for it self.  One of the best NCAA runs of all time, the most decorated Olympian in the sport, and an all time great scorer in the NBA during an era full of other HOFers.  We in Colorado loved him until we didn't, but my respect for him has never left.

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15 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

14 of the 15 All-NBA players decided not to go, as well as many other All-Stars and former All-Stars. We still have the best team on paper, but we also are fielding a ton of players who have no business being on the team and they only have six weeks to practice. I could see them getting knocked out by one of the better European teams that train together year round. 

Which is the irony of all this... when we started losing international competitions, we instituted the system where the best players committed to play for several years so we wouldn’t wind up in this situation, hired Coach K, and domination returned.

Now the players have forgotten those lessons in the current era of planned rest. I wonder if we lose an Olympics or two if we will summon the resolve to truly compete again. :dunno: 

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1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Which is the irony of all this... when we started losing international competitions, we instituted the system where the best players committed to play for several years so we wouldn’t wind up in this situation, hired Coach K, and domination returned.

Now the players have forgotten those lessons in the current era of planned rest. I wonder if we lose an Olympics or two if we will summon the resolve to truly compete again. :dunno: 

They should make it a rule you dont go to the Olympics unless you play other tournaments. Even multi millionaires want a gold medal.

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1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

They should make it a rule you dont go to the Olympics unless you play other tournaments. Even multi millionaires want a gold medal.

Out of curiosity, how would that rule be enforced?

P.S. You get gold medal for winning the World Cup, too. ;) 

 

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