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HydroKnight

Catelyn

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I can' tbe the only one that thinks her chapters are a little on the boring side right? I'm on book 3 and still thoroughly uninterested in what shes going through. Anyone else? 

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2 hours ago, HydroKnight said:

I can' tbe the only one that thinks her chapters are a little on the boring side right? I'm on book 3 and still thoroughly uninterested in what shes going through. Anyone else? 

Catelyn's are the interesting chapters of the Starks.  I much prefer hers to Jon's and Arya's boring chapters.  Action is not the selling points of a Catelyn chapter.  It may not be everyone's cup of tea.

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17 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Catelyn's are the interesting chapters of the Starks.  I much prefer hers to Jon's and Arya's boring chapters.  Action is not the selling points of a Catelyn chapter.  It may not be everyone's cup of tea.

I remember reading them. God, I anticipated her chapters more than any other Stark chapter.

Catelyn is such a great character. I don't understand why some people hate her. 

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1 hour ago, Blooddragon said:

I remember reading them. God, I anticipated her chapters more than any other Stark chapter.

Catelyn is such a great character. I don't understand why some people hate her. 

One reason I think she’s disliked because she said Jon should have been pushed out a window by an incestuous Kingslayer. For many, that’s a Moral Event Horizon. Other times, she makes genuinely stupid decisions like arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime; what person would arm an assassin with such a conspicuous item like a Valyrian Steel dagger, and Tywin likely would not have tried something like the Red Wedding with Jaime in danger of retaliation, and it led to Robb executing Rickard Karstark, requiring the Freys (also led to Red Wedding).

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Great characters have flaws, and Catelyn is a great character. She’s a strong mother figure who gets emotional at times but who also provides good advice on several occasions. The big selling point of Catelyn’s chapters are her insight with other characters. She interacts with a LOT of different people in the series, and she sets a lot in motion.

And those people who gripe about Catelyn’s release of Jaime forget that if she hadn’t done that, he wouldn’t have undergone his redemption arc.

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I think Cat's chapters provide a good balance between advancing the plot and revealing the backstory. She was in the thick of the momentous events that began the Wot5K and the loss of the KotN, and if you looked closely, you would have seen the clues to who really killed Jon Arryn and how Robb "just happened" to fall in love with Jeyne and lose his kingdom (which has yet to be fully revealed).

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On 7/13/2019 at 3:37 PM, 867-5309 said:

Catelyn's are the interesting chapters of the Starks.  I much prefer hers to Jon's and Arya's boring chapters.  Action is not the selling points of a Catelyn chapter.  It may not be everyone's cup of tea.

I suppose its one of the reasons GRRM really hated writing the red wedding. He said it was really tough for him. For some reason I read he chapters and get lost in thinking about whats happening with everyone else. I don't have a connection with her like I do with literally every other character is all...

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Cat is a thoroughly written character.  We are told from the very beginning of the GOT what makes her tick.  Cat and Jon their stories are mirror images of the other.  Both of them chose to save the Stark girls even though they knew it would cause trouble for a lot of people.  1a.-Cat betrayed Robb and the North for her daughters.  2a.-She released the North's most valued POW to get back two daughters.  1b.-Jon betrayed the Nightswatch and the entire Westeros for his sister.  2b.-He released the worst Nightswatchman to ever wear the black to get his sister away from her hubby.  3a.-Cat was not given a dignified death.  3b.-Jon isn't going to get a dignified death either.  4a.-Cat is the fire raised wight.  4b.-Jon will be the ice raised wight.

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Cat is an extremely well-written, and terribly tragic, character.  And she has the worst fate of any major character in the books -  she isn't even allowed to die, but kept in a hideous mockery of life. 

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Catelyn is first and foremost a mother. Her motivations stem entirely from her desire to protect her children. So I do understand why some readers simply don't get along with her. She can be difficult to like as she's not trying to win a war or steal a dragon or fight the 'others'. She's a tragic figure. And as human as they come. She made mistakes (what character hasn't?) and paid dearly for them. 

That isn't something readers think they're signing up for with a fantasy novel. But her part in the story is a massive one and I don't think it's too difficult to empathise with her. Once you get over the frustration of her poor decision making and treat her like the flawed human being that she is, it's all very forgivable. 

That being said, I think her chapters are great. Her defence of comatose Bran, her abduction of Tyrion, her time at RR, her meeting with Renly and Stannis. Her conversation(s) with Jaime... She has a huge impact on the story and through her we learn a lot about how the North is viewed as well as a bit of history on the 7K. 

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On 7/14/2019 at 8:50 AM, Angel Eyes said:

One reason I think she’s disliked because she said Jon should have been pushed out a window by an incestuous Kingslayer. For many, that’s a Moral Event Horizon. Other times, she makes genuinely stupid decisions like arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime; what person would arm an assassin with such a conspicuous item like a Valyrian Steel dagger, and Tywin likely would not have tried something like the Red Wedding with Jaime in danger of retaliation, and it led to Robb executing Rickard Karstark, requiring the Freys (also led to Red Wedding).

 

Her behavior towards Jon was really the catalyst for my own dislike towards her initially.   Then the way she completly ignores Rickon to go off on her quest against Bran's murderer really bothered me, and when I first read it I wasn't even a father yet.

I actually thought that the TV show scene between her and the not-Jeyne talking about Jon was hugely humanizing for Catelyn, and is probably one of the few things that was done better.  It made me stop and give a little more perspective to her character.

All that said I do think she's well written, she's just not very likeable to me.

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19 hours ago, argonak said:

 

Her behavior towards Jon was really the catalyst for my own dislike towards her initially.   Then the way she completly ignores Rickon to go off on her quest against Bran's murderer really bothered me, and when I first read it I wasn't even a father yet.

I actually thought that the TV show scene between her and the not-Jeyne talking about Jon was hugely humanizing for Catelyn, and is probably one of the few things that was done better.  It made me stop and give a little more perspective to her character.

All that said I do think she's well written, she's just not very likeable to me.

Catelyn comes over often as dour and humourless, but that's because everything goes horribly wrong for her.  Again and again, she's put in situations where there are no good options available to her.

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Oh boy, Catelyn Tully.  One of the most cunning and most interesting characters in the game of thrones series.

Yet, all she did was for she one true love, her brother Edmure.

first Catelyn got pregnant out of wedlock.  

Then she flirted with Petyr, convinced him her bastard was his, and gave him a ribbon as a token, to defeat Brandon Stark in a duel for her hand.

then she transpired to have Ned and Robert killed.

She failed, still catelyn bided her time.

Catelyn Tully hated Jon because he looked like a Stark, while her bastards did not.

Only Catelyn read the direwolf as a sign, she saw it as a sign  that the time had come to complete, her victories that needed to be won.

So, catelyn coerced Ned to go to KL with infrequent sex, hoping..never to see his face again.

Later, catelyn expected the man who came too Bran’s room,  she only Bran left after the assassin struck,  even though she thought Bran could die any minute if she left.

Strangely, Catelyn abandons her children at Winterfell.

Desperately, Catelyn rushed to KL to transpired with Littlefinger about the dagger,  and together they chose Tyrion as their pastie.

Curiously, catelyn entertained the singer at the inn, even while stating she wished to remain incognito.

Bizarrely, Catelyn planned her route to the Eryie even before Tyrion arrived, and whilst saying she wished be at Winterfell with her sons.

again bizarrely, Catelyn Tully took careful note of all the men in the inn,  who would be loyal to house TULLY, even before Tyrion arrived.

Interestingly, Tyrion later recall how Catelyn Tully had out foxed him, even though he considered himself quite cunning.   An observation which lead Tyrion to ponder..

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion IV

Could it have been Catelyn Stark who lied? About her defloration, and the dagger as well?

The longer he lived, the more Tyrion realized that nothing was simple and little was true. "Lord Hoster's daughters do not love me," he confessed. "I doubt they would listen to any proposal I might make. Yet coming from you, the same words might fall more sweetly on their ears."

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/15/2019 at 10:16 AM, John Suburbs said:

I think Cat's chapters provide a good balance between advancing the plot and revealing the backstory. She was in the thick of the momentous events that began the Wot5K and the loss of the KotN, and if you looked closely, you would have seen the clues to who really killed Jon Arryn and how Robb "just happened" to fall in love with Jeyne and lose his kingdom (which has yet to be fully revealed).

Yeah she happens to be an awesome character.  Yeah, she makes some poor decisions, but its always easy to see what leads her there.  On top of that she's pretty politically astute and a canny operator in her own right.

Her treatment of Jon is terrible but understandable.  And her actions in the Wot5K do a lot to wreck the Stark cause, but it's also possible to see why she does them, which is what makes her a compelling character.

Also want to point out that Robb marrying Jeyne has literally nothing to do with losing his kingdom.  This has been proven time and again that chronologically, both Roose Bolton and the Freys are planning to betray Robb before figuring out what happened with Jeyne.

Edited by cpg2016

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18 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Yeah she happens to be an awesome character.  Yeah, she makes some poor decisions, but its always easy to see what leads her there.  On top of that she's pretty politically astute and a canny operator in her own right.

Her treatment of Jon is terrible but understandable.  And her actions in the Wot5K do a lot to wreck the Stark cause, but it's also possible to see why she does them, which is what makes her a compelling character.

Also want to point out that Robb marrying Jeyne has literally nothing to do with losing his kingdom.  This has been proven time and again that chronologically, both Roose Bolton and the Freys are planning to betray Robb before figuring out what happened with Jeyne.

I think it's a stretch to say that it's been proven. Both Roose and Walder are canny operators themselves who always keep their options open. So whether they were planning to betray Robb after the Blackwater or all the way back at the Green Fork is inconclusive -- they were probably doing just enough to keep faith with him, but not enough to cause them to lose their heads should Tywin prevail.

Once Robb married Jeyne, however, then the Freys were out, and with them went the Boltons and, in a short while, the Karstarks.

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