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Brienne last chapter of AFFC


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11 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Yes, there was plenty of time.  

However, there was no inclination.  Lem does not care. Lem would not have cut her down no matter what she screamed.

Lem isn't the commander, and he's already in the "dog house" for having left his post to watch the orphans' inn in the first place, and it was thanks for Brienne worse did not befell the orphans. And LS is presiding over the hanging. There's no evidence she walked away.  

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10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Running and breathing and talking and remembering and evoking the sense in Jaime that she's still Brienne: I personally mean "alive alive".  Whether you agree or not with that is your issue. 

She said "sword", confimed by George, so she wasn't hanged. She didn't die from hanging, or that would have left bruises around her neck. Her cheek was mangled but healed. She showed up alive where Jaime was. And he followed. Brienne is alive. 

I think Stoneheart gives her a choice: die by the sword or die by the noose.  She chooses to die by the sword and so is saved from the noose.  To die by the sword probably has something to do with swearing allegience to Catelyn not once, but three times.  I think Brienne also says that an oath made to the dead cannot be broken (somewhere in the text).  So now she is Brienne's creature until she dies by her own sword.  So regardless of her feelings about Jaime or what Catelyn has become, she is bound by oath to serve her. 

Jaime also gave his oath to Catelyn to return her daughters.  So I expect he will have to abandon everything and fulfill that oath if he wants to live.

And yes, medieval hangings were gruesome affairs.  Death was not instantaneous or painless.  It's slow strangulation rather than a broken neck.  Often with others pulling down the legs to add weight and hurry it along.  Brienne is given the choice almost immediately and saved herself.

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15 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Hours?  You think?

An exaggeration, but 45 minutes and up to an hour in certain historical witness reports of piracy hangings with the short drop, let alone pulling someone from the ground with a rope (during the Caribbean 18th century hangings) was not uncommon, though it's generally between 10-20 minutes: 

Lem makes a comment whether she will "dance". This means hanging by the short rope, and was a typical method used to hang pirates, where it could take between 10 mins to over an hour for someone to die of asphyxiation. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_Dock

Quote

With a particular cruelty reserved for those convicted of acts of piracy, hanging was done with a shortened rope. This meant a slow death from strangulation on the scaffold as the drop was insufficient to break the prisoner's neck. It was called the Marshal's dance because their limbs would often be seen to 'dance' from slow asphyxiation. 

https://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/student/c/about/methods/hanging.htm

Quote

This is to determine the length of 'drop' necessary to ensure a quick death. If the rope is too long, the inmate could be decapitated, and if it is too short, the strangulation could take as long as 45 minutes.

http://www.cindyvallar.com/punish.html

Quote

 

Prior to 1740, hangings used what was known as a short-drop, which meant the pirate died by slow strangulation. It took anywhere from five to forty-five minutes for him to die, but on average he succumbed in eight. During this period, pirates’ hands were tied in front of them rather than behind. The Lord High Executioner stood them on a ladder, stool or barrel, put a noose around their necks, and then pulled the support out from under them. The victim would be unable to breathe, and their skin would begin to turn a ghoulish shade of bluish-purple…. Within minutes the tongue would protrude from the mouth, the eyes would bulge from the sockets...in many cases the prisoner lost complete control of their bladder and bowels…. (Tamara J. Eastman, “Hanging Around in the 18th Century…,” No Quarter Given, March 2000)

A friend or relative pulled on a pirate’s legs to hasten his death. 

 

She screamed "sword", and thus was heard by more than Lem, but also other people present during the hanging, and that would include LS, even if she was walking away. There's just no way that any of the others would have allowed Lem to ignore this for 5-45 mins. 

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think Stoneheart gives her a choice: die by the sword or die by the noose.  She chooses to die by the sword and so is saved from the noose.  To die by the sword probably has something to do with swearing allegience to Catelyn not once, but three times.  I think Brienne also says that an oath made to the dead cannot be broken (somewhere in the text).  So now she is Brienne's creature until she dies by her own sword.  So regardless of her feelings about Jaime or what Catelyn has become, she is bound by oath to serve her. 

Jaime also gave his oath to Catelyn to return her daughters.  So I expect he will have to abandon everything and fulfill that oath if he wants to live.

And yes, medieval hangings were gruesome affairs.  Death was not instantaneous or painless.  It's slow strangulation rather than a broken neck.  Often with others pulling down the legs to add weight and hurry it along.  Brienne is given the choice almost immediately and saved herself.

I agree with both of them now being bound to fulfill and die for their oaths to Catelyn. Brienne's whole journey from Maidenpool and beyond is that of Dante's through the 9 circles of hell. Quiet Isle is purgatory. Brienne reaches the 9th circle, the central one, at the Orphans' inn. That's where the devil himself punishes the most wicked of sinners. He has 3 heads and "chews" those sinners, such as Brutus, Judas, etc... The sinners there are 

"Oathbreakers", "kinslayers", "kingslayers" , "betrayers of their liege" and "breakers of guest right". Brienne's face is chewed there. Her sin was that she was carrying orders from another liege and enemy to Catelyn. Yes, she continued to look for Arya and Sansa, but as someone else's vassal. She got one last chance.

Jaime tried his very best not to break his oath to Cat, but he threatened Edmure's unborn child, took him hostage and had Riverrun yielded to the Freys and Lannisters. 

We as readers know both tried their best to combine their love, their oaths and juggle it like a compromise. But LS brooks no wriggle room. And for the both of them coming face to face with a Fury-like Catelyn to remind them of their oaths to her... They are hers to command. 

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

ANd part of Ice, and in LS's hands, last we saw it.

What do you imagine they will have to do at this point.  The BwB already had an encounter with Arya and there must be news of Ramsey's wedding.  I can see Jaime being sent back to Kingslanding to retrieve Sansa and a confrontation with Cersei.  I can also see one or both of them being sent to Winterfell and encountering Stannis whom Brienne has sworn to kill. 

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Just now, LynnS said:

What do you imagine they will have to do at this point.  The BwB already had an encounter with Arya and there must be news of Ramsey's wedding.  I can see Jaime being sent back to Kingslanding to retrieve Sansa and a confrontation with Cersei.  I can also see one or both of them being sent to Winterfell and encountering Stannis whom Brienne has sworn to kill. 

LS knows that Ramsay didn't marry the real Arya. From the BwB she knows they had her for a long time and that she was once at Harrenhal when the Boltons had it. They know she was at some point near the Twins, for their interrogated Merret Frey about seeing her. They know she was with the Hound. The Orphans' Inn = Crossroads Inn = the inn where Sandor and Arya fought and killed Mountain men, and that they went to Saltpans. All trace of Arya disappeared after that. All this information contradicts fArya being sent off by Jaime to Roose Bolton. With the info she has she knows Arya is capable of surviving in the Riverlands using various names and disguises, even as a boy and able to kill. Everything points to LS having chosen the Crossroads Inn as the Orphans Inn where sparrows and people bring wandering orphaned children to. And she has Gendry there to check whether any child brought in is Arya or not, for he was with her the longest and seems to care for her the most. 

We know she sent people into the Neck to converse with the crannogman, and this was before Roose made his treck across the KR in the Neck to Moat Cailin. We have no reports of cranningmen trying to harry them whatsoever, only the Ironborn at Moat Cailin. I believe part of her "orders" to the crannogmen was to let Roose through and not attempt a rescue of a girl who wasn't Arya anyway. 

The active search for Arya is at an end, but instead LS made sure that if and when Arya comes out of the woodwork, she'd end up amongst people who'd recognize her, welcome her, feed her and keep her safe. That's why Lem for sure is in the dog house with LS for leaving his post. Every common man, every sparrow, every traveling septon must regard that place as safehouse for orphans. It's also why LS has it mostly run by children, rather than adults, and keeps adult guards out of sight. Arya's going to trust other children far sooner than adults.

(When people argue that LS is only filled with vengeance and not looking for her children anymore, they're wrong. But she already knows that riding willy nilly everywhere like Brienne did is fruitless)

That leaves Sansa. By now she must have heard the very same thing that every hedge knight knows: Sansa's a fugitive accused of having poisoned Joffrey. She would also know of Lysa's marriage to Littlefinger and likely her death, and that LF all of a sudden has a daughter. So, LS might suspect that LF has her daughter. And she must know that LF played a double game with her, with Ned and with Lysa, and that Lysa basically betrayed the Tullys all for LF. So, she might be contemplating to send people to the Vale. But that's not BwB territory and the Mountain Clans are in the way. Catelyn did journey to the Gates of the Moon and across the path to the Eyrie and took note of the defenses, including how it could be used to cause an avalanche. LS seems far more smarter in getting things done than Catelyn used to. It is perhaps not inconceivable she sends people to the mountains of the Vale to negotiate with the clansmen there. But I don't think that's her first concern.  That may be something she would plan far later. For now, neither Cersei nor Boltons can get to Sansa, and for some reason LF is content in keeping Sansa's identity hidden. 

In order to be of any help and make the Riverlands safe for her daughters, she has to basically conquer the Riverlands again. The majority of the Lannister forces are in the Riverlands. And the Freys and Lannisters occupy Riverrun. Her brother is on his way to Casterly Rock, as is her daughter in law. And her uncle the Blackfish is escaped somewhere planning something too. And then one of the higher ups of the BwB Tom O' Sevens is in Riverrun. Catelyn would have known and LS certainly knows that when hostages are freed this liberates houses to turn against Freys and Lannisters in an instant. There is an advantage in Jaime being regarded by Lannister troops as a commander. So, I suspect that's how she will use Jaime, with BwB in disguise as escort, to lure Frey forces and Lannister forces intro traps, so the BwB can don their armor, and eventually into Riverrun for RW2. 

I don't think we'll have Brienne and Jaime as POVs together. George will use Brienne's POV in other areas, likely Maidenpool, Darry and the KR again. Hyle served as watchman at gates there, so he's an excellent infriltrant for it. LS saw how Brienne cared for Podrick, so LS would keep Podrick by her side as a hostage.

That leaves the Blackfish, who once supervised the Bloody Gate. I think this is the man that LS would use as a liaison to try and make contact with vale clans to help set up an attack onto the Bloody Gate to get to the Gates of the Moon. 

That leaves the crannogmen... who have been kept out of the war entirely so far (except for Meera and Jojen as guides for Bran, and potentially HR already acting on his own seeking Sansa). But I think that the tale on how HR managed to slip past the Twins without notice is an important detail as well as HR having a floating castle. I advize you to reread Davos's chapter in aCoK when he sails onto KL during the Battle of the Blackwater. There are many, very many references to Catelyn as LS, to Gendry, to Arya (and both of them joining in a sexual subtext) and the Twins. Some of them have actually already gone to pass in aSoS, but you get a certain sense that it all leads back to an attempt to take the Twins, not overland, but via the waterways. 

It's all speculative: but this is how I think LS can make use of Gendry, Brienne, Jaime and the Blackfish.

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10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Lem isn't the commander, and he's already in the "dog house" for having left his post to watch the orphans' inn in the first place, and it was thanks for Brienne worse did not befell the orphans. And LS is presiding over the hanging. There's no evidence she walked away.  

Where there is life there is hope.  There is always the always the theoretical possibility of escape, however unlikely.  Did you ever read Ambrose Bierce's famous story "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge"?

But just a reminder.  My position is not that escape is impossible -- merely that there is nothing about the situation that makes escape inevitable or even likely  (apart from the literary logic that many cliffhangers are fake-outs).

With that disclaimer out of the way, let me address your objections.

Lem IS in charge at the scene of the hanging, at least as far as Brienne can tell.  That is why Brienne addresses her pleas to Lem,  LS is not present to plead with.

There is indeed no evidence that LS walked away.  That is because there is no evidence LS was ever present in the first place.  She is presumably still back in her cave.  Lem & Co. brought brought Brienne into the cave and before LS; LS sentenced Brienne; Lem & Co. took Brienne out again to be hanged.

Again, I'm not ruling out the possibility that LS heard Brienne scream "sword", all the way from her cave, and ran out of the cave and up the hill croaking "cut her down; cut her down!"  I'm just saying that there is nothing about the situation that makes that, or any other survival scenario, inevitable or even likely.   99.9% of the time, when that ropes lifts you off the ground, it is time to kiss your ass goodbye.

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10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's just no way that any of the others would have allowed Lem to ignore this for 5-45 mins. 

Oh for God's sake.  These are hardened villains.  They have hanged hundreds of people, apparently including children.  They are not going to go running to Stoneheart with tears in their eyes, yelling "Lady, she SCREAMED A WORD; and we told Lem to cut her down, but he DIDN'T LISTEN!"

The sentence was passed, and they were sent to carry out the sentence.  They were not there to negotiate.  Lem's companion even scolds Lem for jawing with the victim, when he is supposed to be hanging her.  Desperate victims will scream all sorts of things.  The hangman's job is to close his ears and carry out the sentence.

Ana again, I'm not saying it is impossible that someone decided to cut her down.  It just does not seem inevitable or even likely, merely because she managed to croak out on last word as the rope was lifting her off the ground.

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12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

LS still has her part to play and I don't see her giving up her last undead-life to Brienne. 

How do we know that Beric did not pass on all 7 of his undead lives, when he decided he had had enough?

Anyhow, Beric wanted out.  I don't think Stoneheart wants out.  There are Freys and Lannisters and distant relatives of Freys and Lannisters, and distant relatives of the wives of Freys and Lannisters, still alive.

But again, you have forgotten Thoros.  He is still on hand.  He refused to resurrect Catelyn because she was too long dead, and not for any other reason.  He refused a command from Beric, but somehow I doubt he would dare refuse a command from Stoneheart.

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GRRM, on August 22, 2000, in response to whether Catelyn is changed in mind as well as body:

"Death does change a person. No, I do not think Catelyn is as she was, no more than Lord Beric...
And by the way, there will no Catelyn POVs in future volumes, which may tell you something.
"

Hmm.  Catelyn is not the only person whose POV chapters seem to have ceased.  GRRM told a French newspaper that there would be 13 POVs in TWOW.  That hardly seems to leave room for Brienne.  Nor Jaime either.
 

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Lem IS in charge at the scene of the hanging, at least as far as Brienne can tell.  That is why Brienne addresses her pleas to Lem,  LS is not present to plead with.

There is indeed no evidence that LS walked away.  That is because there is no evidence LS was ever present in the first place.  She is presumably still back in her cave.  Lem & Co. brought brought Brienne into the cave and before LS; LS sentenced Brienne; Lem & Co. took Brienne out again to be hanged.

And she screamed the word for all to hear. And while the BwB men have undeniably hardened, none of them presume to challenge LS's command. They cannot, for they share her anger against the Freys and Lannisters, and are in debt with her for losing her daughter Arya. Only Thoros of Myr is somewhat sceptical, because he followed and believed in Beric. Lem is not going to risk LS's ire for killing the sole person she believes can get her Jaime, whom she needs and wants... and the BwB all admit that they cannot do that for her. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Hmm.  Catelyn is not the only person whose POV chapters seem to have ceased.  GRRM told a French newspaper that there would be 13 POVs in TWOW.  That hardly seems to leave room for Brienne.  Nor Jaime either.

There will be more POVs, but many will be axed in tWoW. So by the end of tWoW we will have less POVs than we have at the start. 13 is impossible

Spoiler

 

At the moment we have these confirmed:

  1. Arya (Mercy chapter)
  2. Sansa (Alayne chapter)
  3. Arianne (2 excerpt chapters)
  4. Selmy (2 excerpt chapters)
  5. Tyrion (1 excerpt chapter)
  6. Victarion (1 excerpt chapter)
  7. Aeron (1 excerpt chapter)
  8. Theon (1 excherpt chapter)
  9. Asha (confirmed in a picture of GRRM behind his computer, where the zoom in revealed writing of Asha's POV)
  10. Areo Hotah (confirmed on NaB by George on a fan question: https://grrm.livejournal.com/487298.html?thread=24429442#t24429442)
  11. Cersei (confirmed by BryndenbFish: 
     )
  12. Mel:  https://winteriscoming.net/2016/12/05/video-george-r-r-martin-at-the-guadalajara-international-book-fair-dan/
    Quote

    Someone asked about the mysterious city of Asshai, and Martin weighed in. “I don’t plan to set any scenes in Asshai, at least not in the present book.” But he does point out that Melisandre is a viewpoint character, and she may “think back on some of her time in Asshai.”

     

  13. Jon Connington: After reading Arianne II, George said he intended to write the battle of Storm's End. We know it's been captured already by the end of Arianne II and that onCon and Aegon intend to meet the presumably oncoming Tyrell army in the open field. In any case, Arianne cannot be a POV for either battles, so that must be a JonCon POV. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96016-twow-spoilers-worldcon-reading-second-tyrion-chapter/&page=6&tab=comments#comment-4906606 

  14. Sheesh, we're already at 14, and we don't even have Dany, while Mago (one of Drogo's men) will appear several times in tWoW, and logically we assume that would be in a Dany POV.

  15. we don't even have Bran, though George confirmed that we will see Bran (not confirmed to be a POV, but hey how else huh?)

  16. we don't even have Samwell, but I doubt Aeron will survive long enough to give us anything on the events of Oldtown

  17. we don't even have Davos amongst the list, though George said Osha will reappear in the books, and she can only do so in Davos chapters

  18. , and only wolf dreams POV for Arya to have some eye in the RL, and nada on either Brienne

  19. or Jaime? On top of that George said the prologue would feature Robb's widow (not necessarily as POV) and that the wolf pack is like the metaphorical gun on the Wall, so we can expect heavy RL actions for which we have only two direct POVs: Jaime's and/or Brienne's. And George promised no NEW povs. 

  20. And last but not least, we might expect a Ghost/Jon Snow POV at some point no?

 

If there are only 13 POV (not counting the prologue and epilogue, which are another 2 POVs) in tWoW, that can only mean that George is splitting tWoW in 2 books. Or he said that by the end of tWoW only 13 are left, which would mean 6-7 POVs get killed off during tWoW, which I find the most likely explanation. I would like to see that link to the french article (and I can read French, so the original is fine for me) 

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45 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I would like to see that link to the french article (and I can read French, so the original is fine for me) 

I think this is the article. But I think you might have to pay to read the whole article. It was linked on BryndenBFish’s Ultimate Winds of Winter resource. Apparently GRRM said he thought maybe there were 13 PoVs now but there’d be less by the end of the book. Unless that’s a translation error I’m pretty sure he just never bothered to count how many PoVs he had and made a really bad guess.

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1 minute ago, Likely Luke Strong said:

I think this is the article. But I think you might have to pay to read the whole article. It was linked on BryndenBFish’s Ultimate Winds of Winter resource. Apparently GRRM said he thought maybe there were 13 PoVs now but there’d be less by the end of the book. Unless that’s a translation error I’m pretty sure he just never bothered to count how many PoVs he had and made a really bad guess.

Yeah, have to pay for it. I notice the date is 2014. And that George said "I think" before saying the number. So he was throwing an estimation, and quite an inaccurate one.

Spoiler

With him stressing LS and having a major role in tWoW, Robb's widow and the wolf pack I cannot see how he can pull that off only through Arya wolf dreams and 1 prologue. He needs at least 1 POV for this: either Jaime or Brienne. My guess is both, perhaps 1 at the start as a merge (likely Jaime's), then a divergence to cover simultaneous events across the RL, and then either merging by the end of tWoW, or one a goner. And with all the talk of Willas and Garlan Tyrell, I think that means a Samwell POV. 

As for other POVs being a goner:

  • I expect Selmy to die not long after the battle of Meereen, around the time Tyrion becomes an accepted councelor
  • Damphair may have a few POVs, but he'll be a goner soon too. He needs to go, to make room for someone who might support Asha in aDoS. Might serve long enough for Oldtown, but beyond that? 
  • Victarion's needed to get most of the armies to Westeros, but I think he'll die against Euron before the end of tWoW. Or rather his ships are needed and his captains, and perhaps his POV for any naval battle against the Volantene fleet. But he might be gone soon. 
  • Hotah's our inside Dorne POV, but will likely die when the whole Dayne and Balon stuff is done, and Arianne can take the Dorne plot
  • Can't rule out Arianne dying either though. 
  • Of Jaime and Brienne POVs, I think Jaime's the likeliest to die and in tWoW
  • JonCon at some point, especially when Dany and Tyrion arrive in Westeros
  • If Asha and Theon can make it back to the Iron Islands to call the kingsmoot that elected Euron illegal, Theon's a goner after imo
  • Mel once Davos can become a POV for CB/Wall/WF
  • Brienne might not die, but her POV may become uneccessary once Arya returns to Westeros

If I'd have to bet on the POVs for aDoS, I'd go for

  • Arya
  • Sansa
  • Bran
  • Davos
  • Jon: because of all that talk about going to the true north, more north than ever before and I don't see anyone else having the balls to go to the Heart of Winter to strike the Others there
  • Dany
  • Tyrion
  • Cersei for one last effort in vain
  • Asha to battle Euron
  • (Samwell: might be not necessary because of merging)
  • (Arianne)
  • (maybe Brienne)

 

 

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

And she screamed the word for all to hear. And while the BwB men have undeniably hardened, none of them presume to challenge LS's command. 

Right.  But you seem confused about what exactly that command was.  We heard only one command addressed to Lem & Co.  It was:

"Hang them!" 

And I agree with you that none of them are going to presume to challenge her command.

Now it is true that Lem & Co. were in a position to hear the back and forth between Stoneheart a nd Brienne.  But none of this was addressed to them.  Stoneheart made Brienne an offer.  Brienne rejected it.  Now all that is history.

Then Stoneheart issued her sentence - her command to Lem & Co.  It was unconditional.  

And again, it is not IMPOSSIBLE that someone might decide to cut her down and go back and ask Stoneheart if the REALLY meant it.  It is just that there is nothing about logic of the situation that makes it inevitable, or even likely, that such a thing will happen.

 

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16 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

And again, it is not IMPOSSIBLE that someone might decide to cut her down and go back and ask Stoneheart if the REALLY meant it.  It is just that there is nothing about logic of the situation that makes it inevitable, or even likely, that such a thing will happen.

I don’t know, I think it’d be a lot less logical (and efficient, for that matter) to let Brienne die and then walk back over and resurrect her. Even if Stoneheart thinks she won’t die it’s unecessarily risky.  Lem’s also not the only one around, so I don’t know why no one else would cut her down if she’s agreeing to do something that no one else can do. 

And if it still doesn’t seem plausible, the whole trial is a mummer’s farce, so I don’t see why the hanging couldn’t effectively be staged to win Brienne’s allegiance. Cat knew Brienne and then Gendry witnessed Brienne at the Inn so it’s probably easy to guess her reaction to whole situation.

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3 minutes ago, Likely Luke Strong said:

I don’t know, I think it’d be a lot less logical (and efficient, for that matter) to let Brienne die and then walk back over and resurrect her. 

With her Brienne's humanity eliminated, Brienne's is a more effective servant of whatever Dark Force animates Stoneheart.

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